[Music]
 Greetings from Cyberdellic Space. This is Lorenzo and I'm your host here in the
 Psychedelic Salon. So, are the holidays treating you all okay? My guess is that I'm probably not
 the only one who's kind of looked at like somewhat of an outsider at these
 holiday gatherings, but hey, that fits right in with today's trialogue topic
 about entities. And I guess to the uninitiated, our psychedelic community
 might look and sound like some strange collection of other world entities from
 time to time, but hey, that just goes with the territory. If you've been with us for
 the past few weeks, you know that we're slowly working our way through a series
 of recordings that were made at Esalen in 1989 and 1990 when Terrence McKenna,
 Ralph Abraham, and Rupert Sheldrake got together and conducted a series of
 three-way conversations that they called a trialogue. And the tape I'm going to
 play today was simply labeled "Entities" and it begins with a more complete
 description of the topic by Terrence McKenna. So let's join them now. Oh, and by
 the way, the occasional background noise that you hear was actually in the
 original tape recording. I don't want you to think that it's me doing the heavy
 breathing every once in a while. I'm afraid that's just the price we have to
 pay for pumping up the volume a little extra to make these podcasts easier to
 hear in a noisy environment. And so with that, let's listen in on some of
 Terrence McKenna's thoughts about "Entities."
 Well, this morning's discussion will revolve around the exotic theme of
 disincarnate intelligences and non-human entities that seem to occupy a kind of
 undefined ontological limbo in terms of precisely what their status in the world
 is. Whatever their status in the world is, when you start looking at the question
 of these disincarnate entities, the first thing that strikes you is their
 persistence in human experience and folklore. This is not something unusual
 or statistically rare in all times and in all places, with the possible
 exception of Western Europe for the past 200 years, a kind of social commerce
 between human beings and various kinds of disincarnate entities or non-human
 intelligences was taken for granted. And this could be as simple as the Celtic
 farmer's wife leaving out a pitcher of milk for the Fae folk, or it could take
 more elaborate forms. Because the second aspect of this question that you
 encounter is the tremendous variety of these entities, that we're apparently
 talking about a kind of parallel taxa in another continuum, because we have djinns,
 Afrits, water Nixies, boulder grinders, gnomes, the list is endless and that's
 only the list within the context of the European imagination. Once you add in all
 the various ethnic takes on the potential for non-human intelligent
 life-forms, you have a truly vast array of peculiar creatures, all expressive of
 a very fundamental belief system that seems to be inimical to the human
 condition. Well, before we get into the history of this idea, it might be good to
 simply review the logical options that are open to us in examining a phenomenon
 of this sort. And I take the logical options to be basically three, that these
 entities are in some sense, or that some of these entities are rare but physical,
 and they sort of operate somewhere between the Koliakanth and the Bigfoot.
 It potentially could be imagined moving from the realm of mythology into
 the realm of established zoological or botanical fact, and this has in fact
 happened in some fairly unspectacular cases. This is certainly the least
 interesting, but for example the Yeti is a creature which refuses to declare
 whether it is simply a rare member of the ordinary taxa of this planet or
 something quite different. The second option that lies before us when we look
 at the ontological status of these entities is what I would think of as the
 Jungian position, and to demonstrate it I'll simply quote Jung on the subject of
 sprites and elementals. He calls them autonomous fragments of psychic energy
 which have temporarily escaped from the controlling power of the ego. In other
 words, this is what I would call the mentalist, mentalist-reductionist
 approach to disincarnate entities and intelligences. It's saying they are
 somehow part and parcel of our own minds and their existence is dependent upon
 our conceiving them as objects in our imagination, however pathologically
 expressed. In other words, the humanist position that all God's entities and so
 on are merely projections of our own minds. Exactly, exactly. The projection, the mental -
 well, escaped from the controlling force of the ego. It's a wonderful
 image. And then the third and obviously more interesting but fraught with
 argumentative pitfalls is that these are, one, non-physical and two, autonomous in
 their existence in some sense. In other words, that they actually do
 carry on an existence independent of their being perceived
 by human beings. And this is the position, the classical position of
 those who have had the largest amount of experience dealing with these entities
 which are shamans, ecstatics and so-called sensitive or edge types in all
 kinds of social situations. This position, which is the most, in a sense, elegant and
 commiserate with the evidence that they are in fact autonomous and non-physical,
 nevertheless poses a tremendous barrier for the scientific and Western mind
 because the eradication of spirit from the visible world has been a project
 prosecuted with great zeal, concomitant to the rise of modern science. And
 the admission that that project overlooked something as fundamental as a
 communicating intelligent agency co-present with us on this planet would
 be more than a dangerous admission of the failure of an intellectual method. It
 would pretty much seal the bankruptcy of an intellectual method. So science has
 handled this problem by creating a tiny subset within its vast mansion of
 concerns called schizophrenia. And schizophrenia has been deemed a concern
 of psychologists, not the most honored members of the Legion of the House of
 Science. And they have been told to take care of this problem, please, and this is
 where we get the Jungian mentalist-reductionist model. What's
 interesting about that model, which is the reigning model of what entities may
 be, is that its appeal is in direct proportion to your lack of direct
 experience with the phenomenon that it seeks to explain. In other words, everyone
 who has ever encountered a disincarnate intelligence of this sort knows that
 this is a pitifully inadequate, a woefully inadequate description of the
 phenomenon. Before I close, I just want to make one digression to drive home the
 point that this is not a pursuit of dilettantes or obscurantists, the
 question of the status of these entities, because if we examine the history of
 early modern science, we discover that some of the major movers and shakers in
 that situation were in fact being guided and directed in the formulation of early
 science by disincarnate entities. In the case of John Dee, the great flower of
 Elizabethan science, he actually had commerce with angels and all sorts of
 entities of this type over decades. No less a founder of modern scientific
 rationalism than Rene Descartes actually was set on the path toward the
 realization of the ideals of modern science by an angel who appeared to him
 in a dream and told him that the conquest of nature is to be achieved
 through measure and number. This enunciation, which is really the battle
 cry of modern science, first passed from the lips of an angel. So, and then the
 well-known example of Cucula, the discoverer of the benzene ring by
 seeing the ouroboric symbol, the snake taking its tail in its mouth, the ancient
 symbol of eternity, and understanding that it was the solution to a molecular
 structure problem that he had been dealing with. This aspect of science that
 much of its premises have been transferred to mankind from a hidden
 realm of higher intelligence is completely suppressed in its own
 official history, which is that it's the story of rational thoughts conquest of
 the dark world of superstition. So I think as we look at these entities, as we
 try to place them in context to human society, a more, a way of
 internalizing what they can do for us is to look more toward the shamanic model
 where these spirits were not only identified but the adjective helping was
 added and what was envisioned was a kind of symbiosis between ourselves and an
 invisible world of higher intent and this has certainly been lacking in the
 expression of modern science as a social force and it wouldn't be a bad idea
 perhaps to in any future model of society to attempt to inculcate into it
 whatever wisdom, whatever insight is represented by these forces. Now I
 suppose it would be not fair to close without mentioning that the aversion to
 the irrational is something that science inherited from Christianity and that
 what all of these voices of nature, of the sky, of the earth were suppressed by
 Christianity in favor of the trying mystery of the Trinity and a rebirth or
 a rise in the volume of the voices of the elementals, which is how I interpret
 what's going on, seems to me part and parcel with the ecological crisis of the
 planet. I mean the planet is attempting to speak. Everything which can signify is
 reaching out toward humanity to try and reclaim us for the family of nature
 from this rather pathological trip that we've been on for a long time. So the
 elementals, these voices, the promptings of the disincarnate entities are, if not
 to be heeded, certainly to be carefully considered and studied. We are wandering
 in a wilderness and here is a prompting voice. So then the analysis without prior
 commitment to any kind of epistemic conclusion would seem very useful at
 this point. So that's all I really have to say about it. I'll bet.
 Well, I think this is very modest, Terence, that you have given the survey of these
 different views. Actually, we have our own view as we'll evolve in these next
 minutes. So I'd like to attempt to give a rocket boost into our own sphere here to
 get started. And I'll try a model, sort of a mathematical model, which I think
 we're all close to, and that is the Trinity of early Christianity, which came
 from, directly from the Neoplatonic. This is the one called not the Father, the Son,
 and the Holy Ghost, but the body, the soul, and the spirit. Here the body is more or
 less the Gaia of the Orphic Trinity, the material, ordinary reality, the matter,
 energy, universe, and soul. The soul we speak about in the spirit is kind
 of a medium in between the body and the soul, like the Holy Ghost. And I think
 that entities, that there are kind of abstract entities, that the Logos
 contains intelligence, information, evolving stuff. And we could just sort of
 try identifying this with the top layer, and so the world-soul level. And here are
 kind of abstract. We don't know how, we don't have a cognitive strategy for
 dealing directly with entities in the world-soul. But the world-soul is coupled
 to this, the Gaia level, where our minds are operating closer to the material
 plane than the soul plane, because of the limitations of language. The separation
 of conscious and unconscious has to do with this triune model. So as an
 abstract entity, difficult to cognate because of its complexity in the
 multi-dimensional spheres of the world-soul, reaches down, propagates through the
 spirit, which is a kind of like electromagnetic field, a medium, you see,
 extending between these parallel planes or concentric spheres of soul and
 individual mind, then it comes more and more into cognitive forms which belong
 to our mind in its evolution, in the sense of morphogenetic field.
 And then it gets into representations which are culturally dependent, such as
 fairies, dikinis, and elementals, and so on. So this is just a background model
 where I think we're closer than, this is closest to three of your list, the
 non-physical but real, but it also allows a kind of a spectrum of different forms
 of what are essentially the same entities, and that their representation,
 they might be timeless, more or less, in the celestial sphere, as it were, but
 their cognitive map into our own consciousness depended on our paradigm,
 our worldview, and so on, is evolving. And for this reason you get in different
 cultures the elves, the fairies, the pantheon of gods, and so on. And
 particularly in the Christian, even though this triune model was made
 illegal, I think it was in 879 in the Council of Byzantium that the spirit was
 made illegal, and then we went from three to two, so there's only body and soul.
 For this reason that no one nowadays, this is I think the reason why no one
 knows the difference between spirit and soul, and thinks that they're the same.
 And we talk about spiritual, the inspiration, bringing down the spirit
 into the world, which we need now, because our society's had an expiration over the
 past 200 years, as you said. In order to have an inspiration, we have to know what
 is spirit and what is soul, if they're not the same. And we need to learn this
 model, or some other model, if there is one more appropriate to our time. So I
 think that this is a context in which we could place in parallel, and with
 full validity, all of these different representations. And in this list, in your
 initial taxonomy, I think we should include the saints and saintesses of the
 Christian and the Catholic religion, because in spite of the one God, the
 Yahweh theme of the Judeo-Christian tradition, there exists always this
 changing and local list of deities, which actually are the Christian form of these
 elves and so on. And we have the idea of the timeless forms, or even
 there's an evolution, let us say, on a slower time scale in the celestial
 sphere, but their representations are multifarious, and these representations,
 closer to our own cognition, these are evolving very rapidly. Now we have the
 different time scales, kind of like mathematical physics, that we can deal
 with in discussing this. That makes possible, in other words, to make
 identifications between an earth spirit of this culture and an earth spirit of
 that culture, as in the diffusion of mythology, there is what Jung called
 archetypes, just suggests that different layers in a spectrum of reality or
 particularness or individuality of these things. Well, one of the things that you
 have to wonder, if you go for that it's a non-physical autonomous entity of some
 sort, then that raises another set of questions, which is, is it a non-physical
 autonomous entity unrelated to us, except by the fact that we can share the
 same communication space, or is it in fact somehow related to our own
 existence, not in the sense of being dependent upon it or maintained by it,
 but all this talk of soul and spirit leads then to the question of the
 relationship of the dead to these disincarnate entities. It's very
 interesting, did you know that the dogma of purgatory in Christian theology was
 not created by theologians in Rome, it was created by St. Patrick in an effort
 to make Christian doctrine more commiserate with Celtic folk belief in
 the process of converting Ireland to Christianity, because the very faith that
 was in place when Patrick landed in Ireland was a faith that the dead souls
 coexist with us invisibly in ordinary space and can be seen by people who have
 a special ability, and he took that notion and turned it into purgatory and
 it was so successful in the conversion of Ireland that later councils wrote
 that into general church dogma, but it was a genuflection to the
 Celtic folk belief in this way station of souls that was all around them, and of
 course we've not mentioned that for modern people the major tool for
 contacting these entities in any kind of controllable fashion is psychedelic
 compounds, especially DMT and tryptamines, and those sort of experiences seem to
 line up pretty well with the Celtic folklore concerning the habits, humor,
 style, and presentational mode of these entities, or at least a class of these
 entities, the little people class of these entities. Well of course the Celtic people came
 from Eastern Europe, you know, and they had contact with the cradle of
 civilization as it's called, or they were the cradle of civilization, and the view
 of the underworld introduced into church canon by Saint Patrick would have already
 been the Sumerian Babylonian Ubaritic models. The Sumerian myth of Inanna and
 Demousi, for example, you have Inanna goes to the underworld and speaks with her
 sister Ereshkigal, who is the queen of the underworld, so somehow this is very
 old, the land of the dead, the journey of the dead, I mean we're touching really
 deep stuff here. Cetalhoyuk, there are all these skeletons were stuffed under
 the house that evidently were left outside in the prairie to decompose, and
 when nothing but bones were left, they were like folded up in convenient
 bundles, tied up and stuffed under the house. So this is an example of one
 aspect, the mythological side, the birth and death, the deepest layers of the very
 tradition. But in my model of the spirit between the mundane and the celestial
 spheres, I think that there is a prehistory going back much deeper in
 which this was more or less light, metaphors of light and so on that were
 particularized in human form, near human form, and whatever forms were reasonable
 in a given culture, then in whatever language of form is available in the
 mind of that culture, then these entities would have to materialize in those
 forms. And I think that the underworld, even though it goes back at least 2,000
 years to Sumer, is a displacement from this middle between us and the sky, that
 some bit of sky, you see, was brought low, and this has to do with the patriarchal
 takeover and the creation of the unconscious to begin with, that
 something was essentially made bad in the perpetual difficulty of our species
 in dealing with the birth and death experiences. You used the word language,
 and it occurs to me, all of these disincarnate entities would be but
 dancing hallucinations before us were it not for the fact that they possess the
 ability to address us in languages which we can cognize, and instantly we transfer
 to them a whole new power and importance because they speak, because they are
 transferring information from somewhere to us, and only a very small percentage
 of which are we able to do anything with. And I wonder exactly what this is about.
 The traditional notion, and I'm sort of restricting myself now to the no-mouth
 end of this, is that they are artificers of some sort. They are master
 artisans working in metals and with jewels and that sort of thing. Well, then
 is the whole, since shamanism we know begins with a kind of deep
 interpenetration into early metallurgy, that in fact the Smith and the shaman
 are two twin brothers that are linked together in the working with
 matter, the extraction of energy from matter, well then is this whispering from
 the demon artificers, a phrase which Jung uses, the whisperings of the demon
 artificers have led us into technological self-expression, and
 perhaps indeed into self-expression period. So it's the languages that pose
 the problem, otherwise it would simply be a vision be held before the eyes, open to
 interpretations of all sorts, but the fact that they speak to us and we
 understand is very, very puzzling, and I don't think modern thinkers don't
 even want to talk about it, they just call this schizophrenia and put you in a
 small room and leave you there, but a fair reading, as you mentioned last night
 Ralph, of the history of modern science as presented by somebody like Thomas
 Kuhn, shows that the irrational in this objectified form is very active in
 the process that we call history, it's just that we don't like to admit that
 because we're committed to an official philosophy of reason and casuistry.
 We have two different models going on here in information transmission, as it
 were, there's the horizontal theory of cultural diffusion, where for example,
 since you mentioned that these entities are artisans in metal, then perhaps we
 learn metalworking from them, so the Chalcolithic revolution or the
 agricultural revolution, we see that it took place in one part of the world
 later than another part, it suggests an outgoing circle wave of transmission.
 The agricultural revolution in Britain was in 3500 BC, in France in 4500 BC,
 in Anatolia in 7000 BC, and so on, so not only it moves, it moves slowly, it's been
 tracked by archaeologists and so on, this is the horizontal theory. On the other
 hand, if we need for our future evolution and for our past history as well, that
 brought us successfully to this point, to have inspiration to make shamanistic
 journeys, to travel vertically and to go into the world of the spirit, reaching
 out joyously toward the celestial sphere, where some of this information we need
 has been stored up somehow, or is in a process of evolution, then we would
 expect that the Chalcolithic, I mean the fairy folk, would have shown people how
 to work bronze in many different places at the same time, or maybe what has
 traveled in cultural diffusion is just the habit, the wish, or the means, the
 technology of communicating with angels, so that we can receive this information.
 Descartes was somehow open to this dream, Cicu was open to this dream, and we
 actually have worked hard, the three of us, in the pursuit of our own dreams, in
 order to draw information down vertically from the celestial spheres, in
 order to re-inspire our own generation with this sacred knowledge. So we have
 these two dimensions in our model, whereas modern science and the so-called
 modern paradigm has allowed only one dimension, that the horizontal diffusion.
 As far as the original inspiration for bronze metalworking, that would be an
 accident that took place near a volcano, or I don't know. Why do you suppose early
 modern science became so averse to these phenomena at the same time that there
 was such a zeal for the cataloging and description of all the productions of
 ordinary nature? Well, that's a giant question. We know where it happened and
 when it happened in a short span of time, and we can study the history of that
 time, let us say, between John D. and Newton in England, and we can study
 everything that went on, we still don't understand what went wrong, because none
 of the developments in the scientific Enlightenment seem to be explicitly
 adverse to angels. And Newton believed in alchemy, and that means particularly
 astrological alchemy, the little astrology, and that means that the
 significance of the stars, the hand of God, and the reality of the Trinity, the
 full Trinity, that means the body, the soul, the spirit, and so on, at the
 same time Descartes also, Descartes and Newton, that we frequently blame for our
 mechanistic paradigm, and so on, they were full of the spirit themselves, yet
 they daren't speak because of the examples of fascist terrorism all around
 them, what had happened to other people who spoke. Giordano Bruno, I think, is one
 of the most particular cases, if you have to point at a particular case, here the
 fact that he was burned at the stake in a field in Rome in front of an
 enthusiastic cheering audience of 300,000 people on Easter Sunday or
 something, that he was offered his last chance to recant and denied it. They said,
 "If you'll only say that the world is finite, we'll let you go." And he thought
 and he said, "I shouldn't say that, so I won't." And they burned him. Well, that
 would be one kind of thing, I mean, it must be a factor in there, and yet he
 didn't recant, as Galileo did. Well, the whole ambience of his world was
 one of stellar demons being called down, and this was how Renaissance magic
 worked, was by the communication with these stellar demons, they were called,
 and the lining up of resonant incenses, minerals, colours to draw these things
 down. Perhaps they succeeded, and out of the Renaissance came modern science
 after the pact was made. Starting with an astronomical revolution. Yes. And, I mean,
 for me the question seems to be, are these classes of entity that one
 can experience, and which I think principally are experienced by most
 people in the realm of dreams? Because in our dreams we travel in a realm where we
 ourselves can travel in a strange way, we meet people who are dead, we meet other
 people from different parts of the world, we meet strange situations and
 experiences, quite unpredictable. Our dreams live in a kind of autonomous
 realm. Now, the reductionist theory is that's just because it's part of our own
 psyche. The traditional theory is that in our dreams we travel out of our
 bodies, and we do enter what the theosophists call the astral plane, or
 this other realm. The realm of our dreams is a personal, nightly journeying into
 these realms of other entities, sometimes penetrating some realms, other
 times others. Some people have dreams of angelic beings, others have dreams of
 nightmare qualities, of hellish qualities, that all these are different
 regions, as it were, of heaven, hell, and purgatory, which can actually be accessed
 through the dreams. That's the idea of autonomous dreams, and all people
 throughout the world believe when you dream you travel out of your body in
 another realm, and this therefore means that the realm of entities includes the
 realms of the dead, the realms of the dreamers, and the imaginative world of
 the dreamers. And then also, does the realm of entities include the spirits of
 species, for example, the spirit of the earth, the spirit of the solar system, the
 spirit of each star, which would be these stellar geniuses or angels, angelic
 intelligences, the spirits of each species of vegetation, of plant, mushroom,
 of each species of plant or animal, has its own way of
 being, its own repetitive form, its own way of seeing the world and experiencing
 it, its own way of reflecting participation in the whole, from a
 different point of view from anything else, like a kind of monad. So if each
 species has its own spirit, or guardian spirit, or in a Christian terminology
 perhaps guardian angel, but at any rate its own kind of spirit, then these are
 things that shamans are talked to about, wolf spirits, crow spirits, and all these
 animal spirits, which are a major part of the shamanic fauna. And then there are
 plant spirits of various kinds, and then nature spirits, waterfall spirits, naiads,
 you know, as you mentioned, all these traditional ariads, mountain spirits, tree
 spirits, and so forth. This would be the natural historical basis of the entire
 system, it seems to me, rooted in the species of nature, the intelligences of
 each species of bird and of animal, and of its characteristic space, its own
 characteristic spirit. You know, like, if you become like a hawk, you fly like a
 hawk, you see like a hawk, you take on a kind of hawk-like quality of being.
 These sort of hawk spirits and stuff are all biologically grounded, and the
 others, the angelic ones, are rooted in actual stars and planetary systems and
 galactic spirits, which, so that the whole system is a system of intelligences
 which in some sense either have a bodily aspect, or were at one time
 embodied like the dead that departed. So that, is it all grounded in the bodily
 aspect of the world, as it were, or is there a free-floating, totally separate
 realm of entities, an entirely autonomous kind, that are kind of free-living? Now, it
 seems to me that Ralph's model of the world soul and the world imagination
 would admit either of these possibilities. You know, whether they're,
 all entities have a kind of biological or physical base, be it a star, a species
 of animals or plants, a kind of crystal or whatever. So that everything at one point
 passes through matter, and that passage through matter allows the eternal
 existence of the form in this other realm, after the matter has dissolved
 from the form, and then somehow biological existence is fraught with
 these intimations of immortality. Who knows why? I mean, we just pick up on our
 own destiny, as it were, and it lies in this animate but disincarnate realm. Yes.
 Well, that would be a very happy scenario. Well, I would rather speak of animal souls
 than animal spirits, and so on, preserving the soul for somehow the ultimate end of
 the great chain of being. And spirit is, may be, which is some sort of elastic
 medium connecting it all up. It might be the venue of our travels in dreams
 and shamanistic journeys and so on, because maybe we cannot reach, not in
 consciousness anyway, all the way to the soul. We have visions of the logos
 that may be very close to the soul. On the soul level, certainly it's all
 connected up and all is one, as in the over-soul of Emerson and Thoreau and so on.
 There's a great pancake in the sky, which may participate in the material world by
 ripping off a piece of it, rips off, and then incarnates in a blob of
 protoplasm or something as a bad habit, as this incarnation, like our eating
 meat or something. But in this view, which I think is the essence of the
 hermetic tradition, everything has soul. Spirit is just spirit. It's like air, but
 everything has soul. Animals have soul. Rocks have soul. The souls are permanent.
 Their occupation in a rock or in the trees is temporary. The interaction
 between these different planes is one of a resonant wave phenomenon that has
 at different places along the great chain has more or less of the particulate
 aspect of ordinary reality, where we are beings should be a connected, you know,
 geometric object, for example, is only here and there. Other places it's all
 spread out like moving wallpaper. So in this view, a kind of hermetic view, we
 have a greatest opportunity to understand ourselves, our history, and I
 think to take a stance for a real future, because the history on this scale of the
 world's soul, the morphogenesis, first this biological life on planet Earth is
 very recent in the global timescale, whether you believe in the Big Bang and
 the scientific creation myth or not, that certainly the morphogenesis of the stars
 I mean these entities that have taken from time to time in their history
 incarnation in constellations in the sky or whatever, they long preceded. They have
 a whole lot more experience than the incarnation in the atmosphere at the
 moment when they decided to have oxygen. Now how was this, I mean here's a
 great catastrophe in our evolution which is not quite explained, the chicken and
 the egg problem in this evolutionary great step. We got the oxygen. It has
 something to do with the incarnation of a whim of spirit, of imagination on the
 level of the world's soul, decided to screw around with the organisms in the
 ocean on planet Earth and create oxygen and see what happened. And all of this
 has enormous history compared to the extreme youth of our incarnation in
 animal, mammalian bodies and human bodies in the development of language and so on.
 So in traveling up the great chain of being toward the world soul we're
 getting in touch with these things which must precede any capability we have of
 verbalization or understanding and mammalian experience and so on. And yet
 they do seem to reach out for contact and then they try I suppose to learn our
 language and communicate as the corn circles in England for example
 apparently are a kind of a semiotic where a cornfield as an organism of the
 world soul or the guy in soul, one is saying to particularize to planet Earth,
 the guy in soul is trying to speak to us and find some language so developing an
 alphabet little by little and just as we developed cuneiform. You see I think the
 best theory of them really would be that Azarov says it's the world soul
 communicating to us but if it turned out that in fact it were exactly what the
 most persuaded school of rationalist explainers believes it is, namely
 whirlwinds, a particularly focused kind, you suddenly discover they're right.
 Suddenly whirlwinds can take on entirely new patterns of focus and write new
 patterns and so that there's a kind of spirit behind the whirlwind that's really
 expressed itself as many traditions have always believed. The spiraling form of the
 whirlwind, a whirlwind is probably an extremely complex organized entity. It's
 an expression of DNA, it's an expression of the ordering morphology of the galaxy.
 I would expect a higher order form of life but it still has a
 spiraling energy form. Well maybe some kind of breakthrough is not far away
 when you, these facts I recited about the early modern science and how all
 these guys were shaped in their ideas by converse with these entities. What would
 it be like to take that notion seriously enough to actually open a kind of
 embassy to the invisible so that we could have commerce and treaties and
 exchange of patents. Yes, shamans are ambassadors. Well this must be what in
 fact is going on but what you need to do is bring a lot to it. I mean if you
 understand the differential calculus and the theory of hyperfine reactions you
 may be able to work out a different treaty than if all you understand is
 blowguns and canoe manufacture. Well that's where mathematical modeling comes
 in as Ralph must be thinking. Well I confess that I do have in mind a
 mathematical model for the world so spirit and mundane that I would like to
 run as a video game in arcades or a Disneyland or something because the bad
 habits of science in the past 400 years have had the unfortunate effect of
 depriving us of a mathematical model of the spirit and the soul and therefore our
 understanding of the material world is just because of these peculiar
 selection, the selectivity of scientists as it evolved, you know, they neglected
 the spirit world as far as modeling is concerned so our understanding could be
 advanced. I mean our understanding is somewhere it's not nowhere because we
 have ideas of fairies, angels, saints and so on. I wonder how accurate and
 reliable the maps are that the occultists have accumulated in their
 fashion over the past couple of hundred years. I remember when I first read A.E.
 Waitz's Ceremonial Magic what struck me was that there were lieutenants, generals,
 majors, they were assigned different medals, each had its own sigil, each had
 its own dedicated incenses that were to be burned. Yes, I'll tell you the history of
 that, you probably know it, A.E. Waitz is derived from the Enochian, the Enochian is
 the revelation to John Dee of an earlier magic and when we look in the
 literature of the pre-christian Jews in Jerusalem and especially in
 Alexandria there we find the Markava mysticism. In heaven, you know, there's
 the seventh heaven, I mean seventh heaven, actually there are eight heavens
 according to the Markava mystics. These are visualized as kind of concentric
 spheres and this is a particular visualization of the spirit of the logos
 of the elastic medium between here and the end of the great chain of being, the
 wound on. Well, we're going to have to end on that note for now but like you I'm
 really curious about where they're going to go from here so I'll do my best to
 get the continuation of this trilogue out in the next couple of days for sure.
 As I listened to this conversation with you I kept thinking about Graham
 Hancock's new book Supernatural. I'll go into that in more detail at a later date
 but for those of you who may be interested in a scholarly investigation
 into the origins of art and religion and the human experience you may want to
 pick up a copy of this new book because in it Graham Hancock does a really good
 job of covering the current state of research into prehistoric cave art and
 its possible connection to psychedelic plants and in the area of disincarnate
 entities such as this trilogue covers Hancock's book really shines.
 I've got several emails that I want to mention along with answers to some of
 the questions I've received in the past couple of weeks but if I'm going to get
 the next part of this trilogue out yet this week I'm going to have to cut it
 short for today and begin working on the next program which I plan on getting out
 by the end of this week. Before I go I should mention that this and all of the
 podcasts from the Psychedelic Salon are protected under the Creative Commons
 attribution non-commercial share alike 2.5 license. If you have any questions
 about that you can click on the link at the bottom of the Psychedelic Salon
 webpage which you can find at www.matrixmasters.com/podcasts
 If you still have any questions just send them to me in an email
 that's Lorenzo@matrixmasters.com. A big thank you to Chateau Hayuk for the
 use of their music here in this Psychedelic Salon and thank you as well
 to all of you who are out there with us in cyberdelic space it's nice to know
 you're there. For now this is Lorenzo signing off from
 cyberdelic space. Be well my friends.
 (upbeat music)
 (upbeat music)
 [BLANK_AUDIO]


{END}
Wait Time : 0.00 sec
Model Load: 0.64 sec
Decoding  : 1.42 sec
Transcribe: 2822.98 sec
Total Time: 2825.04 sec