[00:00:00 - 00:00:04]	 That should be an interesting adventure unto itself.
[00:00:04 - 00:00:09]	 But I want to ask you, Terrence, a little bit about souls.
[00:00:09 - 00:00:13]	 You mentioned souls, and so I have two questions.
[00:00:13 - 00:00:21]	 One is, there was a recent, not recent, very old medical study in which a medical doctor
[00:00:21 - 00:00:26]	 actually endeavored to set out and prove in days when it was politically okay to do this
[00:00:26 - 00:00:34]	 kind of thing that the soul could actually be measured that at the very instant of human
[00:00:34 - 00:00:41]	 death, and he went through a whole big trip, I put the medical report up on my website,
[00:00:41 - 00:00:46]	 the human body loses about three quarters of an ounce.
[00:00:46 - 00:00:50]	 And not due to gases or anything else you might imagine in your mind, no physical cause,
[00:00:50 - 00:00:52]	 all of that accounted for.
[00:00:52 - 00:00:59]	 And he printed and published this medical study suggesting the human body actually instantly
[00:00:59 - 00:01:05]	 at the instant of death loses three quarters of an ounce of weight.
[00:01:05 - 00:01:08]	 Do you have any reaction to that?
[00:01:08 - 00:01:15]	 Well, looking at it through the eyes of novelty theory, I think nature is very reluctant to
[00:01:15 - 00:01:20]	 give up a complex ordered form once it's been achieved.
[00:01:20 - 00:01:27]	 I've noticed that the difference between living organisms and things like chairs and tables,
[00:01:27 - 00:01:31]	 the chairs and tables don't metabolize.
[00:01:31 - 00:01:36]	 In a sense, the soul is something which is manifest in time.
[00:01:36 - 00:01:41]	 It's almost as though organisms have a hyper dimension.
[00:01:41 - 00:01:46]	 They're objects with time folded inside of them.
[00:01:46 - 00:01:55]	 And at death, what seems to happen is this complex morphogenetic field, if you will,
[00:01:55 - 00:02:01]	 simply withdraws back into whatever higher dimension it came from in the first place.
[00:02:01 - 00:02:08]	 It's not that it falls apart or dissolves, it's that it retracts from matter.
[00:02:08 - 00:02:16]	 It closed itself with matter for some decades, and now it's simply releasing its organizational
[00:02:16 - 00:02:18]	 power over matter, but it isn't being destroyed.
[00:02:18 - 00:02:21]	 I mean, that's my personal take.
[00:02:21 - 00:02:29]	 I absolutely agree with you, but by your description, it would suggest there could not be physical
[00:02:29 - 00:02:30]	 weight to it, or could there be?
[00:02:30 - 00:02:32]	 No, I think there could be.
[00:02:32 - 00:02:38]	 I think we don't know what it is or of what it consists.
[00:02:38 - 00:02:44]	 This is all, as you pointed out, because of social attitudes and different ideas of medical
[00:02:44 - 00:02:48]	 ethics, these areas are very, very difficult to get data on.
[00:02:48 - 00:02:51]	 All right, next data point.
[00:02:51 - 00:02:54]	 I don't know up there on the mountain whether you've got television.
[00:02:54 - 00:02:55]	 Do you have television up there?
[00:02:55 - 00:02:58]	 Well, we have it, but we don't do much with it.
[00:02:58 - 00:02:59]	 You don't do much with it.
[00:02:59 - 00:03:05]	 All right, well, 2020, about a week ago, did a truly fascinating segment.
[00:03:05 - 00:03:07]	 Maybe you heard me talking about it on the program.
[00:03:07 - 00:03:18]	 Damnedest thing, they followed a 57-year-old woman who received both a heart and lung transplant
[00:03:18 - 00:03:22]	 from a teenage boy.
[00:03:22 - 00:03:31]	 When she woke up from the operation, she had the immediate cravings, I mean, immediate
[00:03:31 - 00:03:36]	 cravings of a teenage boy.
[00:03:36 - 00:03:42]	 If that's not enough for you, Terrence, she, of course, had no idea who the donor was,
[00:03:42 - 00:03:50]	 but she had a dream in one of the successive nights in which she dreamt the name of the
[00:03:50 - 00:03:51]	 donor.
[00:03:51 - 00:03:54]	 All of this was chronicled on 2020.
[00:03:54 - 00:03:59]	 Now, again, it goes to the question of the nature of the soul, but I mean, these are
[00:03:59 - 00:04:11]	 physical body parts, and the obvious implication here is that some essence of that boy was
[00:04:11 - 00:04:14]	 transferred to this woman.
[00:04:14 - 00:04:16]	 It is not the only case of this.
[00:04:16 - 00:04:21]	 It has been noted again and again in transplant cases.
[00:04:21 - 00:04:22]	 What does that suggest?
[00:04:22 - 00:04:28]	 Well, you know, we have memories, and we've never located, though we believe they are
[00:04:28 - 00:04:33]	 in the brain, we've never proven or demonstrated that.
[00:04:33 - 00:04:39]	 My friend Rupert Sheldrake, the British physicist, he believes everything has a kind of memory,
[00:04:39 - 00:04:48]	 objects, organs, ideologies, and that these things surround objects like auras and follow
[00:04:48 - 00:04:54]	 them through time, that you can't move the heart or an organ from one body to another
[00:04:54 - 00:05:00]	 without some of the, dare we say it, karma associated with it coming with it.
[00:05:00 - 00:05:02]	 I don't see how it could be any other way.
[00:05:02 - 00:05:03]	 Sure, we dare say that.
[00:05:03 - 00:05:04]	 No problem.
[00:05:04 - 00:05:07]	 And I think it's fascinating.
[00:05:07 - 00:05:17]	 So it, again, is really evidence of, I don't know if I dare use the word soul, because
[00:05:17 - 00:05:23]	 I'm not sure that is the soul, but it certainly is some sort of transference that is occurring
[00:05:23 - 00:05:30]	 that indicates that maybe our soul or our being is in no central location, but rather
[00:05:30 - 00:05:35]	 a total part of it, yes?
[00:05:35 - 00:05:37]	 Yes, absolutely, yes.
[00:05:37 - 00:05:44]	 All right, I would like to begin taking some calls here and let them ask you some questions.
[00:05:44 - 00:05:47]	 First time caller line, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna in Hawaii.
[00:05:47 - 00:05:53]	 Yes, Terrence, I got so many ideas I wanted to question you about, but I'll try to limit
[00:05:53 - 00:05:54]	 it.
[00:05:54 - 00:06:05]	 As far as souls go, would we agree that the electrochemical energy in the brain has to
[00:06:05 - 00:06:07]	 go somewhere after death?
[00:06:07 - 00:06:15]	 Yes, this is what we're saying, that in a sense it withdraws into what I call hyperspace.
[00:06:15 - 00:06:22]	 In a way you could say the body is a lower dimensional sectioning of a higher dimensional
[00:06:22 - 00:06:30]	 object which is the soul body complex.
[00:06:30 - 00:06:40]	 On the other point I wanted to touch on, as far as your uniqueness curve, how do you account
[00:06:40 - 00:06:53]	 for the chaos theory that there are random particles in the universe affecting the interaction
[00:06:53 - 00:06:58]	 of particles that they come by?
[00:06:58 - 00:07:13]	 I will agree with you that nature as a large system is circular, it recirculates.
[00:07:13 - 00:07:16]	 There are cycles, but-
[00:07:16 - 00:07:20]	 I'm not sure that's what the time wave zero theory suggests at all.
[00:07:20 - 00:07:27]	 No, I think this word you introduced into the question random, this word is a word out
[00:07:27 - 00:07:31]	 of probability theory and statistics.
[00:07:31 - 00:07:37]	 There may be random processes in the universe, but so far the only ones we've ever found
[00:07:37 - 00:07:42]	 were inside random number generators produced by mathematicians.
[00:07:42 - 00:07:50]	 In other words, it's a nice simple supposition to suppose there are processes that can be
[00:07:50 - 00:07:56]	 described as random, but the more we look at nature, the more we find order.
[00:07:56 - 00:08:06]	 That theory is misunderstood by a lot of people using the old notion of chaos as disorder,
[00:08:06 - 00:08:14]	 but what chaos for modern mathematicians is, is almost a super kind of order, a super-fetan
[00:08:14 - 00:08:22]	 medium out of which perturbations to higher states of order can spontaneously emerge.
[00:08:22 - 00:08:28]	 This is what Ilya Prigozhin and Ralph Abraham and all these people are talking about.
[00:08:28 - 00:08:32]	 I want to ask you something, Terrence.
[00:08:32 - 00:08:40]	 I interviewed a scientist who now has a private company called Pear Inc.
[00:08:40 - 00:08:41]	 You may know about this.
[00:08:41 - 00:08:48]	 He produces a computer program in which you are able, which is a gigantic random number
[00:08:48 - 00:08:53]	 generator designed to run on a good, fast computer, and it enables you to pull down
[00:08:53 - 00:08:54]	 two pictures.
[00:08:54 - 00:09:03]	 For example, one of random absolute noise on the left and the other of, it wouldn't
[00:09:03 - 00:09:10]	 matter, the scene of a mountain or any other physical photograph that you might want to
[00:09:10 - 00:09:11]	 bring down.
[00:09:11 - 00:09:13]	 It gives you many choices.
[00:09:13 - 00:09:22]	 You put them side by side, Terrence, and then the process of randomness will begin in the
[00:09:22 - 00:09:28]	 computer and your job is to sit in front of the computer and to cause the random noise,
[00:09:28 - 00:09:34]	 well, you can do it either way, cause the random noise to disappear, bringing the picture
[00:09:34 - 00:09:40]	 into perfect clarity, resolution, or you can work on it the other way and try to cause
[00:09:40 - 00:09:45]	 the picture to be completely consumed by the random noise.
[00:09:45 - 00:09:52]	 The suggestion is, and there is a rating given at each sitting, the suggestion and apparently
[00:09:52 - 00:10:00]	 the proof is that you with your mind are able to affect a rapidly generating random number
[00:10:00 - 00:10:07]	 sequence, generator, whatever, and by God, you can sit there and do it.
[00:10:07 - 00:10:08]	 Yes.
[00:10:08 - 00:10:14]	 There is a site on the web called the Retro Psychokinesis site where they claim you not
[00:10:14 - 00:10:20]	 only can move these random number generators around, but you can move them around in the
[00:10:20 - 00:10:22]	 past.
[00:10:22 - 00:10:31]	 In other words, they invite you to numbers that are being flashed on the screen.
[00:10:31 - 00:10:39]	 They invite you to concentrate on the numbers being odd or even and then they demonstrate
[00:10:39 - 00:10:45]	 that to a small percentage, people can actually push this in the direction they want it to
[00:10:45 - 00:10:46]	 go.
[00:10:46 - 00:10:47]	 So what does that suggest?
[00:10:47 - 00:10:52]	 It is really the same thing I described to you, just a different method, same thing though.
[00:10:52 - 00:10:54]	 Well, but then there's another wrinkle.
[00:10:54 - 00:10:59]	 They tell the people they're generating the numbers in real time, but they've actually
[00:10:59 - 00:11:06]	 made a tape three weeks before and put it in a vault and the people are still able to
[00:11:06 - 00:11:08]	 push it the way they want.
[00:11:08 - 00:11:14]	 In other words, in some sense, they accomplished what they set out to do before they set out
[00:11:14 - 00:11:15]	 to accomplish it.
[00:11:15 - 00:11:16]	 Oh my.
[00:11:16 - 00:11:23]	 So, yes, there's lots of this stuff being statistically studied and it's very amenable
[00:11:23 - 00:11:29]	 to being demonstrated on the web and what it really brings, yes, still less.
[00:11:29 - 00:11:35]	 But that is a form of time travel to the past.
[00:11:35 - 00:11:40]	 I think what we're going to discover is that how you move around in time is not determined
[00:11:40 - 00:11:47]	 by the laws of physics, but determined by cultural programming and that this is what's
[00:11:47 - 00:11:53]	 going to tear open shamanism and yoga and some of these other things.
[00:11:53 - 00:11:58]	 We are far more imprisoned by cultural convention than we are by physical law.
[00:11:58 - 00:11:59]	 All right, Terrence.
[00:11:59 - 00:12:02]	 Wild card line, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna.
[00:12:02 - 00:12:03]	 Where are you, please?
[00:12:03 - 00:12:04]	 Good morning, Mr. Bell.
[00:12:04 - 00:12:06]	 This is Robert in the San Joaquin Valley in California.
[00:12:06 - 00:12:07]	 Yes, sir.
[00:12:07 - 00:12:08]	 Good morning.
[00:12:08 - 00:12:14]	 I have two questions, but Mr. Bell, I'd like to say first, I heard earlier on the news
[00:12:14 - 00:12:22]	 that scientists have discovered a substance in cats' brains that enable them to, when
[00:12:22 - 00:12:27]	 they take catnaps, if you recall, when they wake up, it's instantaneous and they're very
[00:12:27 - 00:12:28]	 alert.
[00:12:28 - 00:12:34]	 They said that this will lead within the next two to three years a sleeping pill for humans
[00:12:34 - 00:12:40]	 without side effects where when they wake up, they will wake up instantly and alert.
[00:12:40 - 00:12:43]	 And we shall call it the catnap pill.
[00:12:43 - 00:12:44]	 Fascinating.
[00:12:44 - 00:12:45]	 Yes, sir.
[00:12:45 - 00:12:46]	 All right.
[00:12:46 - 00:12:47]	 Yes, sir.
[00:12:47 - 00:12:48]	 Terrence, sir.
[00:12:48 - 00:12:49]	 Sure.
[00:12:49 - 00:12:50]	 Fascinating, sir.
[00:12:50 - 00:12:53]	 I'm really enjoying listening to you.
[00:12:53 - 00:12:56]	 I have two quick questions.
[00:12:56 - 00:13:04]	 The first one, for most of my life, I heard people say that everyone has dreams.
[00:13:04 - 00:13:08]	 I never, ever remembered, never recalled a dream.
[00:13:08 - 00:13:13]	 And about eight years ago, there was a scientific report that stated that there is approximately
[00:13:13 - 00:13:17]	 five percent of the population of people that do not have dreams.
[00:13:17 - 00:13:20]	 When I go to sleep, it's like a rock.
[00:13:20 - 00:13:22]	 And I wanted to mention that.
[00:13:22 - 00:13:24]	 And then I'll give you my second question.
[00:13:24 - 00:13:25]	 I'll listen to you.
[00:13:25 - 00:13:27]	 It's the little slice of death.
[00:13:27 - 00:13:28]	 Yes.
[00:13:28 - 00:13:29]	 Terrence?
[00:13:29 - 00:13:35]	 The last question, Mr. Bell had a guest, Ed Daines, remote viewer.
[00:13:35 - 00:13:36]	 Oh, yes.
[00:13:36 - 00:13:43]	 He mentioned in his remote viewing, he could not see beyond 2000.
[00:13:43 - 00:13:45]	 Was it 12, Mr. Bell?
[00:13:45 - 00:13:46]	 Yep.
[00:13:46 - 00:13:50]	 Now, and Christians refer to the rapture.
[00:13:50 - 00:13:54]	 I'm just wondering what your take would be on all of this.
[00:13:54 - 00:13:55]	 All right.
[00:13:55 - 00:13:56]	 Very good.
[00:13:56 - 00:13:57]	 Both good questions.
[00:13:57 - 00:14:00]	 Let's tackle the easiest one first dreams.
[00:14:00 - 00:14:05]	 I'm not aware of a study that suggests that five percent of the population doesn't dream.
[00:14:05 - 00:14:08]	 Most of the people I've talked to suggest that everybody dreams.
[00:14:08 - 00:14:11]	 Maybe five percent don't remember them.
[00:14:11 - 00:14:16]	 And we were talking about dreams earlier with respect to DMT.
[00:14:16 - 00:14:20]	 So could there be people in your opinion, Terrence, who do not dream at all, therefore
[00:14:20 - 00:14:23]	 have no DMT spikes at all?
[00:14:23 - 00:14:25]	 Well, it's interesting.
[00:14:25 - 00:14:30]	 I would have thought, as you suggested, that everybody dreams that some people don't remember
[00:14:30 - 00:14:31]	 it.
[00:14:31 - 00:14:37]	 But it is true that I would guess one in 20 people don't respond to DMT.
[00:14:37 - 00:14:39]	 This is very puzzling.
[00:14:39 - 00:14:42]	 They simply do not respond to it.
[00:14:42 - 00:14:46]	 And of course, this has never been studied because it's an underground drug.
[00:14:46 - 00:14:53]	 But there may well be it may be that dreaming is something recently arriving in human evolution
[00:14:53 - 00:14:57]	 and not something we can just take for granted.
[00:14:57 - 00:15:04]	 So then are we to presume that those who do not dream have not sufficiently evolved?
[00:15:04 - 00:15:07]	 Well, I wouldn't put it that way.
[00:15:07 - 00:15:09]	 Too cruel, huh?
[00:15:09 - 00:15:13]	 You know, everybody has different genetic strengths and differences.
[00:15:13 - 00:15:15]	 Maybe they've got a hell of a backswing.
[00:15:15 - 00:15:16]	 I don't know.
[00:15:16 - 00:15:17]	 Or or.
[00:15:17 - 00:15:22]	 And to be fair, perhaps we could suggest they are the ones who have evolved past the need
[00:15:22 - 00:15:23]	 for it.
[00:15:23 - 00:15:25]	 I want to be kind to them, Terrence.
[00:15:25 - 00:15:26]	 All right.
[00:15:26 - 00:15:27]	 Hold on, Terrence.
[00:15:27 - 00:15:28]	 Rest.
[00:15:28 - 00:15:32]	 And when we come back, we'll tackle the second part of the question, which involves remote
[00:15:32 - 00:15:34]	 viewing in the realm in which that occurs.
[00:15:34 - 00:15:35]	 Fascinating stuff.
[00:15:35 - 00:15:36]	 Terrence M'Gana, right back.
[00:15:36 - 00:15:44]	 This is CB's on the Labor Day edition of the best of coast to coast AM with Art Bell.
[00:15:44 - 00:15:51]	 May of 1997 is art and his guest, the late Terrence McKenna.
[00:15:51 - 00:15:56]	 Art Bell will be back live on the air tomorrow night, Tuesday night, Wednesday morning.
[00:15:56 - 00:16:05]	 And now enjoy this encore presentation of Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.
[00:16:05 - 00:16:06]	 Once again, here I am.
[00:16:06 - 00:16:07]	 Good morning.
[00:16:07 - 00:16:08]	 Terrence McKenna is my guest.
[00:16:08 - 00:16:13]	 And oh, what a wide variety of reactions indeed we're receiving.
[00:16:13 - 00:16:17]	 To some, Terrence is a heretic.
[00:16:17 - 00:16:26]	 He's dabbling in the black arts, witchcraft, magic, perhaps even the antichrist.
[00:16:26 - 00:16:28]	 To others, this kind of reaction art.
[00:16:28 - 00:16:30]	 I'm a computer artist programmer.
[00:16:30 - 00:16:33]	 Consider myself a very intelligent person.
[00:16:33 - 00:16:37]	 I've been listening with absolute fascination, I think, that your guest is right on the mark.
[00:16:37 - 00:16:40]	 It explains everything very succinctly.
[00:16:40 - 00:16:42]	 It's brilliant, period.
[00:16:42 - 00:16:45]	 It's Dave in Milwaukee.
[00:16:45 - 00:16:49]	 And we'll get back to Terrence in a moment.
[00:16:49 - 00:16:55]	 Okay, back to Terrence McKenna on the big island of Hawaii.
[00:16:55 - 00:17:00]	 Terrence, remote viewing, I'm certain you know what that is.
[00:17:00 - 00:17:01]	 Sure.
[00:17:01 - 00:17:05]	 Sure, good, okay.
[00:17:05 - 00:17:13]	 What realm are remote viewers operating in, in your view?
[00:17:13 - 00:17:18]	 Is it the realm, is it the same realm that one might achieve through various methods,
[00:17:18 - 00:17:21]	 including the chemical method you referred to?
[00:17:21 - 00:17:30]	 Well, I'm sure you've heard about Bell's nonlocality theorem and the rise of the idea of nonlocal
[00:17:30 - 00:17:34]	 information in quantum physics.
[00:17:34 - 00:17:41]	 I think what we're going to have to face is the idea that through the imagination, all
[00:17:41 - 00:17:48]	 information throughout space and time is somehow accessible.
[00:17:48 - 00:17:54]	 The body tends to localize consciousness because consciousness associated with the body has
[00:17:54 - 00:18:00]	 developed to protect the body, basically as a threat detection device.
[00:18:00 - 00:18:06]	 But the imagination, which we tend to think of as something we make up or we create, I
[00:18:06 - 00:18:10]	 think is actually something we're embedded in.
[00:18:10 - 00:18:17]	 And if you can filter out the noise sufficiently, something like viewing at a distance, remote
[00:18:17 - 00:18:23]	 viewing, these things are a commonplace in the shamanic and psychedelic societies.
[00:18:23 - 00:18:28]	 But even aside from those, in the discipline...
[00:18:28 - 00:18:35]	 Now, when I say remote viewing, I refer to the discipline that the armed services came
[00:18:35 - 00:18:37]	 up with to spy.
[00:18:37 - 00:18:42]	 Naturally, of course, you know the armed services are going to use it for a military purpose
[00:18:42 - 00:18:43]	 and it was to spy.
[00:18:43 - 00:18:53]	 Now, in that process, there are very specific protocols that endeavor to erase the imagination,
[00:18:53 - 00:18:56]	 ensuring the purity of the information received.
[00:18:56 - 00:19:03]	 Well, this is the projective imagination of the individual meeting the incoming signal
[00:19:03 - 00:19:07]	 of the great beyond, the great whatever it is.
[00:19:07 - 00:19:16]	 And yes, I think a talented remote viewer is someone almost empty of projection so that
[00:19:16 - 00:19:20]	 they can actually feel or intuit the incoming signal.
[00:19:20 - 00:19:26]	 I imagine it's a very delicate thing, but I also imagine with the proper kind of feedback
[00:19:26 - 00:19:32]	 to tell you when you're doing well, it's probably something that could be coaxed out of most
[00:19:32 - 00:19:33]	 people.
[00:19:33 - 00:19:39]	 As I said in the last hour, we're more imprisoned by what we think of as culture than by the
[00:19:39 - 00:19:40]	 laws of physics.
[00:19:40 - 00:19:41]	 All right.
[00:19:41 - 00:19:44]	 Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna in Hawaii.
[00:19:44 - 00:19:45]	 Hello.
[00:19:45 - 00:19:46]	 Yes, hello.
[00:19:46 - 00:19:47]	 Where are you?
[00:19:47 - 00:19:50]	 I'm Richard and I'm in St. Peter's, Missouri.
[00:19:50 - 00:19:51]	 All right.
[00:19:51 - 00:19:54]	 Mr. McKenna has been giving me some insight.
[00:19:54 - 00:20:02]	 I have been working with a system of divination called geomancy and it consists of the generation
[00:20:02 - 00:20:05]	 of figures consisting of points.
[00:20:05 - 00:20:08]	 I use dice to generate the figures.
[00:20:08 - 00:20:13]	 Once the figures are generated, then a reading, in other words, a combination of figures,
[00:20:13 - 00:20:17]	 gives insight into future events.
[00:20:17 - 00:20:20]	 It would seem as though I've been working on this for three years and I've gotten it
[00:20:20 - 00:20:26]	 down to the point where I've got a card reading system that is basically self-programmable,
[00:20:26 - 00:20:36]	 which to me is fascinating because my clients have in some way focused on the dice to create
[00:20:36 - 00:20:37]	 the pattern.
[00:20:37 - 00:20:45]	 In so creating the pattern, I get insight into when things are going to occur and what
[00:20:45 - 00:20:48]	 things will happen to them and it's on the money.
[00:20:48 - 00:20:54]	 I'd love to say it's 100 percent, but it would suggest to me, other than synchronicity, that
[00:20:54 - 00:21:02]	 consciousness with a simple focus, dice, can travel through time, which I believe is what
[00:21:02 - 00:21:07]	 Mr. McKenna is talking about.
[00:21:07 - 00:21:09]	 Maybe it is and maybe it isn't.
[00:21:09 - 00:21:17]	 Perhaps the same idea, or it sounds like the same idea, but perhaps without the same documentation
[00:21:17 - 00:21:20]	 and a flawless performance.
[00:21:20 - 00:21:21]	 Terence?
[00:21:21 - 00:21:27]	 Well, you know, all over the world there are these divinatory systems.
[00:21:27 - 00:21:34]	 The Chinese Geomancy, Tarot cards, the Maya have a system of throwing crystals and small
[00:21:34 - 00:21:42]	 rocks, and skeptics who deal with these things, who are usually anti-the paranormal, always
[00:21:42 - 00:21:45]	 come back and say, "Well, you know, it was uncanny.
[00:21:45 - 00:21:48]	 It seemed to work."
[00:21:48 - 00:21:54]	 I think the worldwide presence of these divining systems, which seem to work, but which we
[00:21:54 - 00:22:00]	 won't admit work because we can't imagine a scientific principle that would allow them
[00:22:00 - 00:22:06]	 to work, they are really signaling to us that the universe is more complicated than our
[00:22:06 - 00:22:09]	 scientific principles are able to make room for.
[00:22:09 - 00:22:12]	 So he's on the right track.
[00:22:12 - 00:22:13]	 He's on the right track.
[00:22:13 - 00:22:20]	 It's always about a set of defined elements, whether they're hexagrams, cards, stones,
[00:22:20 - 00:22:27]	 crystals, and then a randomizing of them, either a shaking and a tossing or a choosing
[00:22:27 - 00:22:34]	 or something like that, and then out of the human imagination come associative projections,
[00:22:34 - 00:22:38]	 which are always strangely right on the money.
[00:22:38 - 00:22:43]	 And this indicates to me there's a resonance between the human psyche and the world that
[00:22:43 - 00:22:52]	 is invisible to the ego and that can only be coped into an observational space by tricking
[00:22:52 - 00:22:57]	 the ego through a kind of random process like throwing cards or dice.
[00:22:57 - 00:23:02]	 It's to me like you simply have a far more refined process, but I've heard the similarities.
[00:23:02 - 00:23:04]	 All right, here's one for you.
[00:23:04 - 00:23:06]	 Back to time travel.
[00:23:06 - 00:23:09]	 Just a thought to ponder regarding time travel.
[00:23:09 - 00:23:11]	 You're going to have to listen carefully.
[00:23:11 - 00:23:15]	 Terence made a statement with regard to the possibility of eliminating your own existence
[00:23:15 - 00:23:19]	 by killing your own grandfather as an example.
[00:23:19 - 00:23:25]	 If time travel was possible, it would be impossible to eliminate yourself by killing your own
[00:23:25 - 00:23:26]	 grandfather.
[00:23:26 - 00:23:31]	 The reason for this being that if time travel is possible, then time would be kind of like
[00:23:31 - 00:23:35]	 a loop tape, which is constantly replaying itself.
[00:23:35 - 00:23:38]	 By killing your own grandfather, you would cease to exist.
[00:23:38 - 00:23:43]	 Therefore, as the loop replays itself, you would not exist to be able to kill your own
[00:23:43 - 00:23:44]	 grandfather.
[00:23:44 - 00:23:45]	 Consider it.
[00:23:45 - 00:23:51]	 You travel back in time, point a gun at and shoot your grandfather to death prior to his
[00:23:51 - 00:23:52]	 ever having children.
[00:23:52 - 00:23:58]	 You instantly cease to exist, but if you cease to exist, who would pull the trigger on the
[00:23:58 - 00:24:01]	 gun as the time loop replays itself?
[00:24:01 - 00:24:05]	 Confusing, but interesting and worth pondering.
[00:24:05 - 00:24:08]	 Well, that is the grandfather paradox.
[00:24:08 - 00:24:10]	 They perfectly stated it.
[00:24:10 - 00:24:13]	 I don't exactly hear it as an objection to what I said.
[00:24:13 - 00:24:20]	 That is a perfect stating of why many people have thought time travel was impossible or
[00:24:20 - 00:24:24]	 that you could only travel forward into the future.
[00:24:24 - 00:24:28]	 All right, East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna.
[00:24:28 - 00:24:29]	 Hello.
[00:24:29 - 00:24:30]	 Hi.
[00:24:30 - 00:24:35]	 Terrence, from what I've heard, you are obviously a disciple of Satan.
[00:24:35 - 00:24:42]	 I have to say that I want to know why no scientist has ever disproven the resurrection of Jesus
[00:24:42 - 00:24:43]	 Christ.
[00:24:43 - 00:24:45]	 All right, Terrence, old disciple of Satan.
[00:24:45 - 00:24:48]	 Yes, he is a disciple of the devil.
[00:24:48 - 00:24:51]	 Well, let's get his reaction to that.
[00:24:51 - 00:24:56]	 We're talking of these matters, so it is worth some consideration, Terrence.
[00:24:56 - 00:24:57]	 How do you respond?
[00:24:57 - 00:25:05]	 Well, if I am a disciple of Satan, it's an unknowing disciple.
[00:25:05 - 00:25:06]	 It's your break.
[00:25:06 - 00:25:08]	 Someone said I was a heretic.
[00:25:08 - 00:25:10]	 I certainly am a heretic.
[00:25:10 - 00:25:11]	 You're not a heretic.
[00:25:11 - 00:25:12]	 You're just deceived.
[00:25:12 - 00:25:13]	 Pardon me?
[00:25:13 - 00:25:14]	 You're deceived.
[00:25:14 - 00:25:15]	 You're not a heretic.
[00:25:15 - 00:25:16]	 You're deceived by Satan.
[00:25:16 - 00:25:19]	 You will know that Jesus Christ is God.
[00:25:19 - 00:25:20]	 Well, perhaps.
[00:25:20 - 00:25:25]	 My position on all of this is-
[00:25:25 - 00:25:28]	 Sir, pause and let him answer, okay?
[00:25:28 - 00:25:29]	 Okay.
[00:25:29 - 00:25:36]	 Yeah, my position in this is that we're not in this world to choose between good ideologies
[00:25:36 - 00:25:37]	 and bad ideologies.
[00:25:37 - 00:25:40]	 I think that's sort of ... I don't know.
[00:25:40 - 00:25:44]	 Maybe this is middle age setting in on me, but I've sort of come to the conclusion that
[00:25:44 - 00:25:52]	 all ideologies are the enemies of human freedom and that we're not ... You haven't made progress
[00:25:52 - 00:25:59]	 when you choose existentialism over Christianity or anything over anything.
[00:25:59 - 00:26:06]	 Real maturity begins when you notice that these ideologies are cultural furniture.
[00:26:06 - 00:26:08]	 So Jesus Christ was a liar?
[00:26:08 - 00:26:09]	 No, no.
[00:26:09 - 00:26:10]	 Oh, no.
[00:26:10 - 00:26:11]	 Jesus is God.
[00:26:11 - 00:26:12]	 He says he is.
[00:26:12 - 00:26:13]	 Jesus is God.
[00:26:13 - 00:26:18]	 He was a piece of cultural furniture inside Western civilization.
[00:26:18 - 00:26:23]	 But let me turn to this question of the resurrection for a moment, which I find a little more interesting.
[00:26:23 - 00:26:25]	 All right.
[00:26:25 - 00:26:28]	 I can't remember in which gospel it is.
[00:26:28 - 00:26:31]	 The caller probably can tell us.
[00:26:31 - 00:26:39]	 But when the Marys go to the tomb the morning after the resurrection and Christ is there,
[00:26:39 - 00:26:46]	 he says to them as they approach, he says, "Women, touch me not, for I am not yet fully
[00:26:46 - 00:26:50]	 of the nature of the Father."
[00:26:50 - 00:26:56]	 And I have never heard any Christian enthusiast discuss exactly what this means.
[00:26:56 - 00:26:58]	 It's a fascinating statement.
[00:26:58 - 00:27:05]	 Here is Christ resurrected, having overcome death, standing alive at the side of the tomb,
[00:27:05 - 00:27:11]	 not saying, "I am not yet completely of the nature of the Father."
[00:27:11 - 00:27:19]	 And what this suggests to me is some kind of crypto-biological process that we're dealing
[00:27:19 - 00:27:20]	 with here.
[00:27:20 - 00:27:26]	 I don't think science can prove or disprove the resurrection because science never deals
[00:27:26 - 00:27:28]	 with unique events.
[00:27:28 - 00:27:33]	 If we had a thousand resurrections, I suppose they could statistically examine it and make
[00:27:33 - 00:27:34]	 a judgment.
[00:27:34 - 00:27:43]	 But these unique historical events are more properly the study of historians, not science.
[00:27:43 - 00:27:51]	 Let me ask you in your own little way as a historian, as you have looked back to develop
[00:27:51 - 00:27:57]	 your model, when you get to the time of Christ, what do you see?
[00:27:57 - 00:27:58]	 What kind of peak do you see?
[00:27:58 - 00:27:59]	 It's a very good question.
[00:27:59 - 00:28:00]	 Fascinating question.
[00:28:00 - 00:28:01]	 Fascinating question.
[00:28:01 - 00:28:09]	 At that point in the wave, there is a unique signature that doesn't occur at anywhere else
[00:28:09 - 00:28:11]	 in the wave.
[00:28:11 - 00:28:18]	 In a sense, it does indicate the life of Christ as being incredibly unique.
[00:28:18 - 00:28:21]	 But recall I said it never says what will happen.
[00:28:21 - 00:28:24]	 It just says where to look.
[00:28:24 - 00:28:31]	 What makes the call on Christ a little difficult, although, well, what makes it a little difficult
[00:28:31 - 00:28:36]	 is that Christ shared the earth with Augustus Caesar.
[00:28:36 - 00:28:43]	 In fact, the story of Christ's birth mentions that Joseph and Mary were going because of
[00:28:43 - 00:28:47]	 a census of the world that Caesar had called.
[00:28:47 - 00:28:54]	 Well, Caesar Augustus was one of the greatest military and political geniuses of all time.
[00:28:54 - 00:28:57]	 So he's in the same part of the wave as Christ.
[00:28:57 - 00:29:03]	 I don't know how to tease them apart, but I can certainly tell you that the time wave
[00:29:03 - 00:29:11]	 tells us that the period from 15 BC to 40 AD was extremely novel.
[00:29:11 - 00:29:18]	 I have spoken with a number of, again, referring to the remote viewers, and they have made
[00:29:18 - 00:29:30]	 a unique statement, many of them, that at 2012 or at approximately 2012, they can look
[00:29:30 - 00:29:32]	 no further.
[00:29:32 - 00:29:37]	 And they see, they run into a sort of a brick wall, if you will, and it is as though there
[00:29:37 - 00:29:38]	 is nothing beyond.
[00:29:38 - 00:29:48]	 But what they do see and describe is a gigantic spiritual event of some magnitude which they're
[00:29:48 - 00:29:53]	 unable to discern the precise nature of.
[00:29:53 - 00:29:55]	 I could climb aboard all of this.
[00:29:55 - 00:29:59]	 I think we're headed for everything we can imagine.
[00:29:59 - 00:30:05]	 In other words, the resurrection and the life, the overcoming of three-dimensional space
[00:30:05 - 00:30:13]	 and time, time travel, star flight, immortality, planetary telepathy, consciousness out of
[00:30:13 - 00:30:21]	 the body, it will be delivered by human hands, out of the human imagination, under the prompting
[00:30:21 - 00:30:29]	 of the gods and the entities and the forces in the human unconscious.
[00:30:29 - 00:30:35]	 It is fortuitous, Terence, that we are doing this program and recording all of this for
[00:30:35 - 00:30:43]	 history for the time after they toss you into the volcano.
[00:30:43 - 00:30:45]	 For the rest of the Rockies, you're on the air with Terence McKenna.
[00:30:45 - 00:30:46]	 Hello.
[00:30:46 - 00:30:47]	 Terence.
[00:30:47 - 00:30:48]	 Hello.
[00:30:48 - 00:30:49]	 Yes, where are you, sir?
[00:30:49 - 00:30:50]	 I'm in Prince George, BC.
[00:30:50 - 00:30:52]	 A British, I'll be honest.
[00:30:52 - 00:30:54]	 Yeah, way up here in Canada.
[00:30:54 - 00:30:55]	 Okay.
[00:30:55 - 00:30:56]	 Friendly neighbor to the north.
[00:30:56 - 00:30:57]	 Yes, sir.
[00:30:57 - 00:31:00]	 I'm just getting a little disheartened by some of these weird Christians.
[00:31:00 - 00:31:02]	 But that's beside the point.
[00:31:02 - 00:31:06]	 I wanted to ask Terence if he'd ever read any Castaneda.
[00:31:06 - 00:31:08]	 Oh, yeah.
[00:31:08 - 00:31:10]	 I read a lot of the early stuff.
[00:31:10 - 00:31:11]	 A lot of the early stuff.
[00:31:11 - 00:31:15]	 There's a later one called The Fire From Within.
[00:31:15 - 00:31:20]	 And for any of the viewers out there who are digging this, which I am, I'm only 21, but
[00:31:20 - 00:31:24]	 I've been waiting a thousand years to hear this program.
[00:31:24 - 00:31:25]	 But- Look, I mostly have listeners.
[00:31:25 - 00:31:30]	 Now, I'm not saying some are not viewing, but mostly listeners.
[00:31:30 - 00:31:31]	 Viewers.
[00:31:31 - 00:31:32]	 Listeners.
[00:31:32 - 00:31:33]	 The ones who are of my persuasion.
[00:31:33 - 00:31:34]	 I might be viewing.
[00:31:34 - 00:31:39]	 Well, you got to use the real eyes.
[00:31:39 - 00:31:46]	 But anyways, The Fire From Within, it's basically, I just wanted to state that it covers exactly
[00:31:46 - 00:31:49]	 what's been discussed here tonight.
[00:31:49 - 00:31:54]	 And for any of the listeners out there, I just like to say that if they're into it,
[00:31:54 - 00:32:01]	 and maybe are as yourself if you're digging what Terence is saying tonight, that maybe
[00:32:01 - 00:32:03]	 you should read that book.
[00:32:03 - 00:32:05]	 Maybe I should read that book?
[00:32:05 - 00:32:06]	 Yeah.
[00:32:06 - 00:32:08]	 So, Terence, you've not read the book?
[00:32:08 - 00:32:09]	 Not that particular one.
[00:32:09 - 00:32:11]	 I read the early Castaneda things.
[00:32:11 - 00:32:13]	 What do you think about it?
[00:32:13 - 00:32:21]	 Well, I think that he, in the earlier ones, he was truer in his description of the methods.
[00:32:21 - 00:32:29]	 In other words, I think that any claim to be able to penetrate these places regularly
[00:32:29 - 00:32:36]	 and effectively, that isn't psychedelically based, in other words, that doesn't involve
[00:32:36 - 00:32:40]	 alteration of consciousness, has to be looked at very carefully.
[00:32:40 - 00:32:47]	 And what goes on in those Castaneda books is he starts out talking about detour and
[00:32:47 - 00:32:48]	 peyote and this and that.
[00:32:48 - 00:32:55]	 But then in the later books, it becomes more about these techniques and quasi-yogic stuff.
[00:32:55 - 00:32:56]	 But why is it-
[00:32:56 - 00:32:57]	 Well, yeah, but wait a minute.
[00:32:57 - 00:32:58]	 Wait a minute.
[00:32:58 - 00:32:59]	 I have a question.
[00:32:59 - 00:33:04]	 Why is it not possible, Terence, that once one is introduced through the chemical method
[00:33:04 - 00:33:16]	 to these alternative realities, that one eventually may not discern a path without their use?
[00:33:16 - 00:33:19]	 Well, in principle, it's possible.
[00:33:19 - 00:33:24]	 It's just simply in a lifetime of looking into this, I've never seen it in a convincing
[00:33:24 - 00:33:27]	 form.
[00:33:27 - 00:33:34]	 And a point that needs to be made here is a psychedelic experience is not like meditation.
[00:33:34 - 00:33:38]	 It's not like anything else.
[00:33:38 - 00:33:43]	 Meditation is pretty ... Nobody goes to the ashram in the morning with their knees beating
[00:33:43 - 00:33:47]	 together in terror over what's about to overcome them.
[00:33:47 - 00:33:51]	 On the other hand, DMT test pilots are dry-mouthed and white-knuckled.
[00:33:51 - 00:33:56]	 This is the real thing.
[00:33:56 - 00:34:01]	 He says it becomes a matter of saving and rechanneling energy.
[00:34:01 - 00:34:07]	 If you can do it without the planned ally, I take my hat off to you.
[00:34:07 - 00:34:15]	 If I found it happening to me not in the presence of the ally, I would be extremely agitated
[00:34:15 - 00:34:16]	 and upset.
[00:34:16 - 00:34:20]	 I don't want to be able to achieve these states on the match.
[00:34:20 - 00:34:24]	 They're too titanically alien and strange.
[00:34:24 - 00:34:26]	 Oh, that's interesting.
[00:34:26 - 00:34:27]	 That's interesting.
[00:34:27 - 00:34:35]	 But you are suggesting that you are very, very comfortable with the chemical avenue
[00:34:35 - 00:34:43]	 because to have it otherwise would be so disconcerting as to possibly ... I'm not sure, Terrence,
[00:34:43 - 00:34:46]	 but it may bother me that I understand you so well.
[00:34:46 - 00:34:50]	 I thought it might.
[00:34:50 - 00:34:55]	 I thought you and I were kindred souls when I looked at your book about the quickening.
[00:34:55 - 00:35:03]	 Art, I think anybody who is stretching into this stuff comes to the same conclusion that
[00:35:03 - 00:35:08]	 things are moving faster and faster in a very bizarre direction.
[00:35:08 - 00:35:09]	 I agree.
[00:35:09 - 00:35:10]	 Terrence, can you stick around for one more?
[00:35:10 - 00:35:11]	 Yeah, one more.
[00:35:11 - 00:35:12]	 Good.
[00:35:12 - 00:35:13]	 One more it is then.
[00:35:13 - 00:35:14]	 Terrence McEnnis here.
[00:35:14 - 00:35:18]	 It's a rare opportunity for you, truly a rare opportunity.
[00:35:18 - 00:35:22]	 I would suggest that you go to your telephone and join us if you are able.
[00:35:22 - 00:35:28]	 If not and you would like to get a copy of this program, you can do so beginning now.
[00:35:28 - 00:35:37]	 It'll be a, let's see, one, two, three, four hour program by calling 1-800-917-4278.
[00:35:37 - 00:35:39]	 It'll take some re-listening.
[00:35:39 - 00:35:40]	 That's 1-800-917-4278.
[00:35:40 - 00:35:45]	 From the high desert, this is CBC.
[00:35:45 - 00:35:47]	 How are you?
[00:35:47 - 00:35:48]	 Good.
[00:35:48 - 00:35:49]	 How are you?
[00:35:49 - 00:35:50]	 I'm doing pretty good.
[00:35:50 - 00:35:52]	 I want to ask you a couple of questions.
[00:35:52 - 00:35:57]	 Do you think the reason why people generally, like remote viewers for instance, lose credibility
[00:35:57 - 00:36:03]	 is because like sidekicks, they have a distasteful track record and don't predict stuff like
[00:36:03 - 00:36:07]	 the Oklahoma bombing or a bank robbery before it happens?
[00:36:07 - 00:36:13]	 Do you think that time machines can be, or the possibility of the future of time machines
[00:36:13 - 00:36:19]	 might have something to do with something that's very normal in nature such as extreme
[00:36:19 - 00:36:29]	 shock wave technology and just normal physical things that happen generally and the mainstream
[00:36:29 - 00:36:35]	 physics that will create synthetic time travel reality?
[00:36:35 - 00:36:40]	 Well, I don't know from what direction time travel is going to come.
[00:36:40 - 00:36:47]	 It used to be completely unrespectable to discuss it in the scientific literature.
[00:36:47 - 00:36:53]	 If you run literature searches now, you'll see over the past 10 years, this has gone
[00:36:53 - 00:36:56]	 from unmentionable to quite respectable.
[00:36:56 - 00:37:07]	 There is a book called Time Travel in Physics and Science Fiction by Nabum that will definitely
[00:37:07 - 00:37:11]	 bring you up to speed on the many, many approaches to time travel.
[00:37:11 - 00:37:13]	 It's been known since 1948.
[00:37:13 - 00:37:19]	 There was a paper by Kurt Gödel with a scheme for time travel that would work.
[00:37:19 - 00:37:26]	 It simply requires that you spin a cylinder half the size of the solar system at the speed
[00:37:26 - 00:37:27]	 of light.
[00:37:27 - 00:37:28]	 Yes.
[00:37:28 - 00:37:32]	 But everybody agrees if you could do that and then travel along its transverse axis,
[00:37:32 - 00:37:35]	 you would be moved backward into time.
[00:37:35 - 00:37:41]	 So in the sort of in the way we started out with vacuum tubes and now go to the pantheon,
[00:37:41 - 00:37:45]	 we have now very rude Goldberg approaches to time travel.
[00:37:45 - 00:37:51]	 But I'm sure by 2012, we will have brought this to a kind of perfection.
[00:37:51 - 00:37:59]	 And do you suspect, Terrence, that time travel will manifest itself from the physical, from
[00:37:59 - 00:38:07]	 physics or the time travel will be manifested from within?
[00:38:07 - 00:38:13]	 I think we're going to find a way basically to obliterate the difference.
[00:38:13 - 00:38:19]	 You know, it's only been 500 years since some Europeans sailed over the horizon and found
[00:38:19 - 00:38:21]	 the lost half of this planet.
[00:38:21 - 00:38:22]	 That's right.
[00:38:22 - 00:38:29]	 And I think the human imagination is as solid as the real estate you're standing on, Art,
[00:38:29 - 00:38:36]	 and that when this is understood, there will be a kind of migration into the human imagination
[00:38:36 - 00:38:43]	 and that this is, you know, time travel, space flight, immortality.
[00:38:43 - 00:38:46]	 We have these terms for these things.
[00:38:46 - 00:38:50]	 But what is really coming is going to be all this and more.
[00:38:50 - 00:38:56]	 Our way of talking about it is inevitably incredibly quaint because we talk about it
[00:38:56 - 00:39:02]	 inside the very culture it's going to make obsolete.
[00:39:02 - 00:39:03]	 It sure would do that.
[00:39:03 - 00:39:05]	 Terrence, a lighter question.
[00:39:05 - 00:39:07]	 This comes from my wife at the beginning of the program.
[00:39:07 - 00:39:14]	 She knew that you were the one to follow on in Timothy Leary's footsteps.
[00:39:14 - 00:39:22]	 And so she thought she would ask you, it is rumored or it is perhaps a legend that Timothy
[00:39:22 - 00:39:28]	 had squirreled away like a treasure trove at some secret location, 25,000 hits of Blue
[00:39:28 - 00:39:29]	 Santos.
[00:39:29 - 00:39:30]	 Where is it?
[00:39:30 - 00:39:31]	 Do you know where it is?
[00:39:31 - 00:39:39]	 My goodness, Art, your wife follows these things.
[00:39:39 - 00:39:40]	 Where is the Blue Santos?
[00:39:40 - 00:39:41]	 That's right.
[00:39:41 - 00:39:42]	 Where is the X mark on the map?
[00:39:42 - 00:39:43]	 Have you got the map?
[00:39:43 - 00:39:46]	 Well, my lips are sealed.
[00:39:46 - 00:39:51]	 When they open the tombs on Sidonia, I'll issue a press statement.
[00:39:51 - 00:39:52]	 All right.
[00:39:52 - 00:39:53]	 We'll leave it right there.
[00:39:53 - 00:39:55]	 West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna.
[00:39:55 - 00:39:56]	 Hello.
[00:39:56 - 00:39:57]	 Hello.
[00:39:57 - 00:39:58]	 Hello.
[00:39:58 - 00:39:59]	 Hi.
[00:39:59 - 00:40:00]	 Where are you, sir?
[00:40:00 - 00:40:01]	 I am in San Francisco.
[00:40:01 - 00:40:02]	 My name is Ryan.
[00:40:02 - 00:40:03]	 All right, Ryan.
[00:40:03 - 00:40:08]	 It is great to talk to both of you.
[00:40:08 - 00:40:14]	 I am of the belief that there are two types of people in the world, basically, like people
[00:40:14 - 00:40:19]	 who have had psychedelic experiences, people who haven't, and the vast difference in their
[00:40:19 - 00:40:23]	 ways of thinking once they have had a psychedelic experience.
[00:40:23 - 00:40:24]	 That's why it's illegal.
[00:40:24 - 00:40:25]	 Yeah.
[00:40:25 - 00:40:26]	 Yeah.
[00:40:26 - 00:40:36]	 What is the direction, I wanted to ask Terrence, that he sees this state now where it is illegal
[00:40:36 - 00:40:43]	 and why it is keeping, I think, our civilization down to its dreadful state?
[00:40:43 - 00:40:53]	 I think that if it could be, like through mass awareness somehow, like get, I don't
[00:40:53 - 00:40:59]	 know, I just wish it could be legal so people, I think, could go to the next level that we
[00:40:59 - 00:41:05]	 are coming to so fast with the, I don't know, like things speeding up.
[00:41:05 - 00:41:07]	 I mean, everybody feels that I believe everybody that I know.
[00:41:07 - 00:41:08]	 Did you say next level?
[00:41:08 - 00:41:09]	 Yes.
[00:41:09 - 00:41:13]	 You're calling from San Francisco, not Rancho Santa Fe, right?
[00:41:13 - 00:41:14]	 Yeah, exactly.
[00:41:14 - 00:41:15]	 Yes.
[00:41:15 - 00:41:16]	 Let me say this.
[00:41:16 - 00:41:25]	 I mean, I'm a bit of a pessimist on this subject because I take psychedelics so seriously.
[00:41:25 - 00:41:32]	 I can't imagine them ever being really legal unless there's a total social transformation
[00:41:32 - 00:41:41]	 because my analysis of it is the reason everybody from a Marxist state to a Christian oligarchy
[00:41:41 - 00:41:48]	 to a high tech industrial democracy can get together and agree that psychedelics are a
[00:41:48 - 00:41:54]	 terrible, terrible thing is because the social effect of psychedelics being taken by large
[00:41:54 - 00:42:00]	 numbers of people is a kind of deconditioning from the cultural myth.
[00:42:00 - 00:42:04]	 Whatever they are, it's no knock on any given society.
[00:42:04 - 00:42:10]	 It's just that if people start taking psychedelics, they start questioning what they've been told
[00:42:10 - 00:42:18]	 about reality and culture is in the business of keeping you inside a set of predetermined
[00:42:18 - 00:42:21]	 answers to those questions.
[00:42:21 - 00:42:29]	 Well, based on that then, adherence, perhaps legalization day is 2012.
[00:42:29 - 00:42:30]	 Well, there you go, Art.
[00:42:30 - 00:42:37]	 There's an apocalypse that would shake our world and leave the heavens intact.
[00:42:37 - 00:42:40]	 That day, that drug war ends.
[00:42:40 - 00:42:44]	 Time Caller line, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna on the Big Island of Hawaii.
[00:42:44 - 00:42:45]	 Hello.
[00:42:45 - 00:42:46]	 Hi, Art.
[00:42:46 - 00:42:47]	 Hi, where are you?
[00:42:47 - 00:42:48]	 Actually, I'm also from San Francisco.
[00:42:48 - 00:42:49]	 Okay.
[00:42:49 - 00:42:50]	 It seems to be San Francisco night.
[00:42:50 - 00:42:51]	 Well, I'm not surprised.
[00:42:51 - 00:42:52]	 Nor am I.
[00:42:52 - 00:42:59]	 Anyway, I just wanted to tell you upfront, I am a professional stand up comedian and
[00:42:59 - 00:43:01]	 I guess sort of in the vein of Lenny Bruce.
[00:43:01 - 00:43:07]	 I do a lot of research and I've read a lot of your writings, Mr. McKenna, including
[00:43:07 - 00:43:14]	 the archaic revival, Invisible Landscape, and also, excuse me, the CD that you have
[00:43:14 - 00:43:15]	 that you did with Space Time Continuum.
[00:43:15 - 00:43:18]	 Oh, yeah, the Alien Dream Time.
[00:43:18 - 00:43:20]	 Yeah, which was very fun.
[00:43:20 - 00:43:23]	 And I'm also familiar with Mr. Sheldrake's writings as well.
[00:43:23 - 00:43:30]	 And I would say to the 25% dissenter facts that you've been receiving, Art, that they
[00:43:30 - 00:43:35]	 are probably saying that because they're not familiar with a lot of what Mr. McKenna is
[00:43:35 - 00:43:36]	 saying.
[00:43:36 - 00:43:38]	 Well, and a lot of them never will be.
[00:43:38 - 00:43:41]	 It'll go right past them and they hear one thing only and they see devils.
[00:43:41 - 00:43:43]	 And you know, that's okay.
[00:43:43 - 00:43:44]	 Right.
[00:43:44 - 00:43:48]	 Actually, in relation to what you're saying there, I would say the gentleman who considered
[00:43:48 - 00:43:54]	 Mr. McKenna to be in league with Satan, that the truth does not have an ideological agenda
[00:43:54 - 00:43:56]	 or anything like that whatsoever.
[00:43:56 - 00:44:01]	 My question to you is, you're familiar with the writings of John Lilly.
[00:44:01 - 00:44:02]	 Sure.
[00:44:02 - 00:44:07]	 In my neighborhood, there's actually an isolation tank center and I regularly go down there
[00:44:07 - 00:44:11]	 with mushrooms and I'll hop into the tank while I'm doing mushrooms and whatnot.
[00:44:11 - 00:44:14]	 I'm very fascinated by your writings on DMT.
[00:44:14 - 00:44:21]	 And what I'd like to know is how would I be able to locate DMT or the plants that it comes
[00:44:21 - 00:44:22]	 there from?
[00:44:22 - 00:44:25]	 Now, I don't know that we can tell that on the air.
[00:44:25 - 00:44:27]	 Well, we can say something.
[00:44:27 - 00:44:30]	 We've already said it's right behind your eyebrows.
[00:44:30 - 00:44:31]	 Right.
[00:44:31 - 00:44:33]	 That's one thing.
[00:44:33 - 00:44:38]	 The other thing is the real practical answer is go to the internet in terms of if you want
[00:44:38 - 00:44:41]	 to locate plants in your ecosystem.
[00:44:41 - 00:44:43]	 There you go.
[00:44:43 - 00:44:50]	 There's vast discussion of this and incredible enthusiastic communities.
[00:44:50 - 00:44:54]	 But as Art says, we've already pushed the envelope.
[00:44:54 - 00:44:58]	 I don't think we can start peddling schedule one substances on the air, nor would we wish
[00:44:58 - 00:44:59]	 to.
[00:44:59 - 00:45:03]	 Nor would you want me to, sir, because then you might not hear me anymore.
[00:45:03 - 00:45:05]	 However, it's on the internet.
[00:45:05 - 00:45:09]	 Look, it's a lot less dangerous than a lot of the other crap on the internet, building
[00:45:09 - 00:45:12]	 missiles and bombs and all the rest of that.
[00:45:12 - 00:45:14]	 So can you, well, can I ask you this?
[00:45:14 - 00:45:16]	 Can you give me a search?
[00:45:16 - 00:45:17]	 Use a search engine.
[00:45:17 - 00:45:18]	 Right.
[00:45:18 - 00:45:19]	 All right.
[00:45:19 - 00:45:20]	 All right.
[00:45:20 - 00:45:21]	 Thanks a lot.
[00:45:21 - 00:45:22]	 That's what they're there for.
[00:45:22 - 00:45:24]	 A wild card line.
[00:45:24 - 00:45:25]	 You're on the air with Terrence McKenna.
[00:45:25 - 00:45:26]	 Hello.
[00:45:26 - 00:45:27]	 Wow.
[00:45:27 - 00:45:28]	 I actually got through.
[00:45:28 - 00:45:29]	 Yes, sir.
[00:45:30 - 00:45:32]	 I'm in Madison, Wisconsin.
[00:45:32 - 00:45:33]	 All right.
[00:45:33 - 00:45:34]	 Go right ahead.
[00:45:34 - 00:45:35]	 Another hot day.
[00:45:35 - 00:45:39]	 First of all, Art, I just wanted to say about a year ago I talked to you and you were telling
[00:45:39 - 00:45:43]	 me that I was doing myself a lot of harm by using psychedelics.
[00:45:43 - 00:45:47]	 I think Terrence is just good proof that someone can turn out all right.
[00:45:47 - 00:45:48]	 No, I didn't tell you that.
[00:45:48 - 00:45:51]	 I didn't tell you you were doing yourself a lot of harm.
[00:45:51 - 00:45:53]	 I thought you did.
[00:45:53 - 00:45:54]	 No.
[00:45:54 - 00:45:55]	 No.
[00:45:55 - 00:45:56]	 I wouldn't make that judgment.
[00:45:56 - 00:45:59]	 That's something that only you can conclude.
[00:45:59 - 00:46:00]	 I see.
[00:46:00 - 00:46:03]	 Also, I want to make a suggestion for a guest.
[00:46:03 - 00:46:05]	 I think Terrence might be familiar with them.
[00:46:05 - 00:46:07]	 Have you ever heard of Douglas Rushkoff?
[00:46:07 - 00:46:08]	 Oh, yeah.
[00:46:08 - 00:46:09]	 I know Doug.
[00:46:09 - 00:46:10]	 Yeah.
[00:46:10 - 00:46:11]	 I've read many of his books.
[00:46:11 - 00:46:12]	 Just what he needs.
[00:46:12 - 00:46:13]	 More publicity.
[00:46:13 - 00:46:18]	 I think he's just a great guy.
[00:46:18 - 00:46:21]	 All right.
[00:46:21 - 00:46:22]	 Anything else?
[00:46:22 - 00:46:23]	 Yes.
[00:46:23 - 00:46:24]	 Terrence.
[00:46:24 - 00:46:26]	 Do you have a video called Alien Dreamtime?
[00:46:26 - 00:46:27]	 Yeah.
[00:46:27 - 00:46:29]	 I just want to say I really like it.
[00:46:29 - 00:46:30]	 Oh, yeah.
[00:46:30 - 00:46:35]	 Well, that's a thing I did a few years ago with a band called Space Time Continuum.
[00:46:35 - 00:46:36]	 Yeah.
[00:46:36 - 00:46:37]	 Yeah.
[00:46:37 - 00:46:39]	 What was the essence of it, Terrence?
[00:46:39 - 00:46:46]	 Well, it was a rave in San Francisco and I talked about, if you can imagine this, I talked
[00:46:46 - 00:46:53]	 about the impact of psilocybin on human evolution to a back beat.
[00:46:53 - 00:47:01]	 This is something we haven't gotten into here, Art, but I have a whole other rap on how mushrooms
[00:47:01 - 00:47:07]	 actually impacted and caused the breakthrough to self-reflecting human consciousness.
[00:47:07 - 00:47:10]	 We'll have to save that one for another time.
[00:47:10 - 00:47:12]	 I guess so.
[00:47:12 - 00:47:13]	 Interesting Ease to the Rockies.
[00:47:13 - 00:47:15]	 You're on the air with Terrence McKenna.
[00:47:15 - 00:47:16]	 Good morning.
[00:47:16 - 00:47:17]	 Good morning.
[00:47:17 - 00:47:19]	 This is Larry in Peoria, Illinois.
[00:47:19 - 00:47:22]	 Hi, Larry.
[00:47:22 - 00:47:28]	 This is really very interesting because I just recently read some of the excerpts from
[00:47:28 - 00:47:36]	 the psychedelic experience by Timothy Leary, just his take on the Tibetan Book of the Dead.
[00:47:36 - 00:47:40]	 I missed the first part of the show, so I'm sorry if this has already been talked about,
[00:47:40 - 00:47:46]	 but I was wondering what is basically the difference between DMT and LSD?
[00:47:46 - 00:47:47]	 Good question.
[00:47:47 - 00:47:55]	 Well, LSD lasts hours and hours and tends to be, I think my own phrase is abrasively
[00:47:55 - 00:47:56]	 psychoanalytic.
[00:47:56 - 00:48:04]	 Essentially, I think LSD does what most people think psychedelic drugs do.
[00:48:04 - 00:48:07]	 They cause you to review past memories.
[00:48:07 - 00:48:12]	 They cause you to see your life in a different light, so forth and so on.
[00:48:12 - 00:48:14]	 DMT is not like that.
[00:48:14 - 00:48:18]	 It seems to go beyond the personal dimension.
[00:48:18 - 00:48:22]	 It doesn't matter, I think, who you are or where you started from.
[00:48:22 - 00:48:28]	 It carries you into its own world, a world that is alien on its own terms, and it doesn't
[00:48:28 - 00:48:35]	 have a lot of information in it about your psychology or your dilemmas.
[00:48:35 - 00:48:43]	 It's less useful for psychoanalysis and more useful for exploring what I consider to be
[00:48:43 - 00:48:50]	 a pretty dramatic paranormal dimension considering they're so easily accessed.
[00:48:50 - 00:48:55]	 You're speaking about, it's interesting all this talk about dimensions and going to the
[00:48:55 - 00:48:56]	 next level.
[00:48:56 - 00:49:06]	 I just had a psychedelic experience recently when I had a meditation on the nature of the
[00:49:06 - 00:49:17]	 universe as being like a geometric structure that's so immensely more vast and diverse
[00:49:17 - 00:49:22]	 than you can really explain.
[00:49:22 - 00:49:28]	 I think there's the vastness of space and time that we know about, but then as we look
[00:49:28 - 00:49:37]	 into the micro dimension and we see how much there is in the atomic and subatomic world,
[00:49:37 - 00:49:42]	 the world is an amazing and dynamic place.
[00:49:42 - 00:49:49]	 This is why I'm so down on ideologies because I think they're dusty mirrors to hold up to
[00:49:49 - 00:49:54]	 the splendor of the felt presence of the living universe.
[00:49:54 - 00:50:02]	 Here's a, I believe McKenna quote, "Western civilization is a loaded gun pointed at the
[00:50:02 - 00:50:04]	 head of this planet."
[00:50:04 - 00:50:06]	 Yep.
[00:50:06 - 00:50:07]	 Yep.
[00:50:07 - 00:50:12]	 Western civilization is a loaded gun pointed at the head of this planet.
[00:50:12 - 00:50:19]	 What I think I was referring to there was resource extraction, propaganda, pollution
[00:50:19 - 00:50:23]	 of the atmosphere and this sort of thing.
[00:50:23 - 00:50:29]	 If we continue to practice our cultural values as we have practiced them over the next thousand
[00:50:29 - 00:50:35]	 years, we're going to make the earth unfit for our children, which is a sin and a tragedy
[00:50:35 - 00:50:39]	 of such magnitude we don't even have a name for it.
[00:50:39 - 00:50:41]	 Boy, I sure agree with that.
[00:50:41 - 00:50:47]	 And then this quote, "LSD is a drug that occasionally causes psychotic behavior in persons that
[00:50:47 - 00:50:50]	 have not taken it."
[00:50:50 - 00:50:54]	 Terrence McKenna quoting Tim Leary in Los Angeles in 1991.
[00:50:54 - 00:50:55]	 Accurate?
[00:50:55 - 00:51:01]	 Well, I tried to give that quote to Tim and he swore to me he'd never said that.
[00:51:01 - 00:51:07]	 So it's sort of hanging out there in the air, but it's a very funny quote because I think
[00:51:07 - 00:51:15]	 it makes clear to people how agitated you can become by drugs you haven't taken and
[00:51:15 - 00:51:21]	 how often the people who have the most negative drug reactions are the people who didn't take
[00:51:21 - 00:51:22]	 the drug.
[00:51:22 - 00:51:24]	 You are a heretic.
[00:51:24 - 00:51:27]	 And just one last as we head toward the bottom of the hour.
[00:51:27 - 00:51:31]	 The mind rests on a foundation of chemical machinery.
[00:51:31 - 00:51:32]	 Yes.
[00:51:32 - 00:51:36]	 It rests on a foundation of chemical machinery.
[00:51:36 - 00:51:45]	 It is not simply the product of chemical machinery any more than I am an automobile when I drive
[00:51:45 - 00:51:46]	 it.
[00:51:46 - 00:51:47]	 All right.
[00:51:47 - 00:51:49]	 Well, rest your chemical machine for a moment and we'll come right back.
[00:51:49 - 00:51:53]	 Terrence McKenna from the Big Island of Hawaii is my guest.
[00:51:53 - 00:51:54]	 We've got 30 more.
[00:51:54 - 00:51:57]	 If you've got a question, we've got phone lines.
[00:51:57 - 00:52:01]	 I'm Art Bell and this is CBC.
[00:52:01 - 00:52:03]	 My guest is Terrence McKenna.
[00:52:03 - 00:52:10]	 Terrence, again with respect to Timothy, he of course as you well know has been launched
[00:52:10 - 00:52:15]	 into orbit with a number of other notables.
[00:52:15 - 00:52:20]	 And I was just wondering again referencing that 25,000 hits of Blue Santos, do you suppose
[00:52:20 - 00:52:29]	 it's possible that Timothy had them launched with himself and that orbital decay will provide
[00:52:29 - 00:52:33]	 one great last acid rain at about 2012?
[00:52:33 - 00:52:39]	 Well, he did want to prove that you can take it with you.
[00:52:39 - 00:52:41]	 All right.
[00:52:41 - 00:52:43]	 First time caller line, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna.
[00:52:43 - 00:52:44]	 Hello.
[00:52:44 - 00:52:45]	 Hi there.
[00:52:45 - 00:52:46]	 Hi.
[00:52:46 - 00:52:47]	 Where are you?
[00:52:47 - 00:52:48]	 I'm in Nanaimo, BC.
[00:52:48 - 00:52:49]	 British Columbia.
[00:52:49 - 00:52:50]	 All right.
[00:52:50 - 00:52:51]	 Yeah.
[00:52:51 - 00:52:53]	 I first discovered you, Art, about three years ago and I was getting you very faintly at
[00:52:53 - 00:52:55]	 night from KEX in Oregon.
[00:52:55 - 00:52:56]	 Yes.
[00:52:56 - 00:53:00]	 Now we've got you on C-Fund in Vancouver and we're all real happy about it.
[00:53:00 - 00:53:01]	 Thank you.
[00:53:01 - 00:53:02]	 You keep us up all night.
[00:53:02 - 00:53:03]	 So, Terrence.
[00:53:03 - 00:53:04]	 Sure.
[00:53:04 - 00:53:08]	 I've read I think all of your books, if not most of them.
[00:53:08 - 00:53:16]	 And in True Hallucinations, there's a part where you have a mushroom in the hut with
[00:53:16 - 00:53:22]	 you and your brother and he makes a sound that you describe that I think nobody else
[00:53:22 - 00:53:28]	 that, unless we were there, we wouldn't understand the sound, makes the mushroom glow or appear
[00:53:28 - 00:53:35]	 to and you were speaking before about human consciousness interacting through resonance
[00:53:35 - 00:53:38]	 with the universe around us.
[00:53:38 - 00:53:44]	 And I wonder if you could sort of explain how those two things tie in and in doing so,
[00:53:44 - 00:53:48]	 I'd like to ask you if you've read The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot.
[00:53:48 - 00:53:52]	 I have read The Holographic Universe.
[00:53:52 - 00:53:53]	 He was a friend of mine.
[00:53:53 - 00:53:58]	 He unfortunately died a few years ago.
[00:53:58 - 00:54:05]	 Resonance is the principle, almost magical of action at a distance.
[00:54:05 - 00:54:11]	 You know, you can play a certain open note on the cello and the piano 50 feet across
[00:54:11 - 00:54:15]	 the room will sound in the same octave.
[00:54:15 - 00:54:17]	 So resonance, we know exists.
[00:54:17 - 00:54:20]	 It's a musical phenomenon.
[00:54:20 - 00:54:26]	 But what we need to realize, I think, is that resonance is built into time.
[00:54:26 - 00:54:33]	 Time in a sense, you could say a given moment in time is a kind of hologrammatic interference
[00:54:33 - 00:54:36]	 pattern of past times.
[00:54:36 - 00:54:41]	 And I consider those past times to be in resonance.
[00:54:41 - 00:54:48]	 So one of the things Art and I haven't discussed tonight about my time wave is that it does
[00:54:48 - 00:54:54]	 allow you to look at a certain period of time and decide what it was in resonance with in
[00:54:54 - 00:54:55]	 the past.
[00:54:55 - 00:55:04]	 And those past epochs that are influencing it, then their influence can be seen in popular
[00:55:04 - 00:55:10]	 fads, furniture styles, what movies are up, that sort of thing.
[00:55:10 - 00:55:16]	 Now with the DMT, you say it's produced in our bodies.
[00:55:16 - 00:55:24]	 Can the DMT molecule in the brain change our electron spin resonance in the molecules in
[00:55:24 - 00:55:31]	 our brain and can that possibly make our brain act as an antenna that allows us to see all
[00:55:31 - 00:55:34]	 those other things that you're talking about?
[00:55:34 - 00:55:39]	 Well these are the kinds of ideas that my brother and I were playing with clear back
[00:55:39 - 00:55:41]	 in the early 70s.
[00:55:41 - 00:55:47]	 And the tragedy, one of the tragedies of the repression of psychedelics is not that they
[00:55:47 - 00:55:53]	 were taken out of the hands of the curious public, but that they were made off limits
[00:55:53 - 00:55:56]	 to scientific research.
[00:55:56 - 00:56:01]	 Not that anybody put up a sign, but it was very clearly understood that pharmacologists
[00:56:01 - 00:56:08]	 who specialized in psychedelics could expect to be passed over, not promoted, not given
[00:56:08 - 00:56:10]	 the plum job.
[00:56:10 - 00:56:17]	 I could spiel off a dozen questions, very interesting central questions about the mechanism
[00:56:17 - 00:56:22]	 of psychedelics that we could answer with ordinary clinical studies.
[00:56:22 - 00:56:28]	 Not simply that how do you do ordinary clinical studies on substances that the government
[00:56:28 - 00:56:29]	 has made illegal.
[00:56:29 - 00:56:30]	 Well you don't.
[00:56:30 - 00:56:31]	 It's impossible.
[00:56:31 - 00:56:32]	 Of course you don't.
[00:56:32 - 00:56:34]	 Wild card line, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna.
[00:56:34 - 00:56:35]	 Hi.
[00:56:35 - 00:56:40]	 Wow, this is a very serendipitous meeting.
[00:56:40 - 00:56:45]	 I've played around with a lot of EEG for the last few years and I find that I do serendipitous
[00:56:45 - 00:56:48]	 things but unplanned.
[00:56:48 - 00:56:53]	 Thanks Art.
[00:56:53 - 00:56:59]	 What do you think, well there was one physicist, I can't think of his name, he describes time
[00:56:59 - 00:57:02]	 as nature's way of keeping things from happening all at once.
[00:57:02 - 00:57:09]	 That's exactly what Terrence just said we're going to come to at the Zero Point 2012.
[00:57:09 - 00:57:13]	 I wanted to get back into a little bit of physics, but almost cosmic physics, having
[00:57:13 - 00:57:16]	 to do with black holes.
[00:57:16 - 00:57:24]	 I wanted to ask you how you felt about the black hole being nature's way of, well the
[00:57:24 - 00:57:27]	 ultimate recycling device in the universe.
[00:57:27 - 00:57:33]	 Well it certainly is this, anything which falls into a black hole is deconstructed down
[00:57:33 - 00:57:40]	 to spin and angular momentum and I think all other information is stripped out of it.
[00:57:40 - 00:57:47]	 I think if there can be gravitational wells like that, then there can also be the kind
[00:57:47 - 00:57:50]	 of novelty wells that I'm suggesting.
[00:57:50 - 00:57:53]	 In other words- Novelty wells?
[00:57:53 - 00:58:00]	 Well if statistical probability is not a very clear way of looking at the universe, if in
[00:58:00 - 00:58:07]	 fact probabilities vary through space and time of any given event, then there will be
[00:58:07 - 00:58:14]	 areas of extremely high improbability and conversely probability.
[00:58:14 - 00:58:20]	 I think we've got to get past this idea of time as a smooth surface and begin to think
[00:58:20 - 00:58:29]	 of it as a kind of landscape, a place where some things are more probable in some places
[00:58:29 - 00:58:32]	 and some things more probable in others.
[00:58:32 - 00:58:37]	 You look for water in the bottom of the valley, you look for glaciers up on the slopes.
[00:58:37 - 00:58:45]	 I think time has a topography, it is a topological surface of some sort and science in the West
[00:58:45 - 00:58:48]	 has just completely sailed past all this.
[00:58:48 - 00:58:49]	 Well how is it described?
[00:58:49 - 00:58:53]	 Well I don't want to make a long thing out of this but-
[00:58:53 - 00:58:59]	 Well in Newton it's described as pure duration, in other words perfect flatness.
[00:58:59 - 00:59:04]	 When Einstein comes along and he says well no in the presence of massive gravitational
[00:59:04 - 00:59:10]	 objects space time has a very smooth and slight curvature.
[00:59:10 - 00:59:19]	 What I'm saying is that even at local scales time is variable and that when we explode
[00:59:19 - 00:59:27]	 time at any scale we discover the same fractal patterns as we're seeing on scales far above
[00:59:27 - 00:59:29]	 and far below it.
[00:59:29 - 00:59:30]	 So really the time-
[00:59:30 - 00:59:32]	 Or far in and far out of it too.
[00:59:32 - 00:59:34]	 Far in it and far out of it.
[00:59:34 - 00:59:38]	 So really what it is is it's like Fourier transform or something like that.
[00:59:38 - 00:59:44]	 It's a holographic matrix that is self similar on many scales.
[00:59:44 - 00:59:52]	 The organization of a galaxy, the organization of an atom, these things in my theory are
[00:59:52 - 00:59:56]	 morphologically linked.
[00:59:56 - 01:00:02]	 They look that way because they are linked across scale and across space and time by
[01:00:02 - 01:00:06]	 an underlying architecture of the universe.
[01:00:06 - 01:00:12]	 You know there's a big mystery now in cosmology, the dark matter mystery.
[01:00:12 - 01:00:14]	 Where is 90% of the matter?
[01:00:14 - 01:00:23]	 For the galaxies to be hanging together under the laws of gravity 90% of them must be missing.
[01:00:23 - 01:00:29]	 Well I say there's no missing matter, what's missing here are some laws and the laws of
[01:00:29 - 01:00:30]	 missing-
[01:00:30 - 01:00:31]	 Well then could it be consciousness itself?
[01:00:31 - 01:00:39]	 Well it's this appetite for complexity that every particle in the universe participates
[01:00:39 - 01:00:40]	 in this.
[01:00:40 - 01:00:47]	 The galaxies hang together as spirals because it's the more novel thing to do.
[01:00:47 - 01:00:54]	 Not because they are under the control of gravity but because there is a cosmic law
[01:00:54 - 01:00:59]	 of aggregation toward novelty that we've missed.
[01:00:59 - 01:01:02]	 Would the Fourier be a way of measuring that?
[01:01:02 - 01:01:06]	 Say with Fourier measurement of the brain itself or EEG?
[01:01:06 - 01:01:11]	 Well you could measure it in a Fourier matrix, you could measure it in many different kinds
[01:01:11 - 01:01:12]	 of matrices.
[01:01:12 - 01:01:19]	 The point is to demonstrate it to somebody outside the system who's looking at it.
[01:01:19 - 01:01:24]	 I think the breakthrough, the great breakthrough in mathematical modeling of nature in the
[01:01:24 - 01:01:32]	 last 20 years has been the discovery of fractals and self-similarity on many scales.
[01:01:32 - 01:01:33]	 And this is part of that.
[01:01:33 - 01:01:37]	 What I'm saying really is that time is a fractal structure.
[01:01:37 - 01:01:44]	 It can be defined by a limited set of variables and then iterated on the micro scale, the
[01:01:44 - 01:01:46]	 macro scale, the human scale.
[01:01:46 - 01:01:53]	 They're all operating under the same architectural constraints but at different scales.
[01:01:53 - 01:01:59]	 You know when I talk to my friends in the EEG world, I do a lot of EEG spectral analysis
[01:01:59 - 01:02:01]	 and stuff.
[01:02:01 - 01:02:02]	 They think I'm nuts.
[01:02:02 - 01:02:03]	 Well you're not.
[01:02:03 - 01:02:09]	 I say well if you want to buy my machine and operate, this is how the universe is.
[01:02:09 - 01:02:15]	 And when I speak in these terms, it's like I'm in a big hall, you know, empty room.
[01:02:15 - 01:02:19]	 Well there's a lot of confusion in the sciences right now.
[01:02:19 - 01:02:24]	 The complexity people are not talking to the dynamics people.
[01:02:24 - 01:02:28]	 The poor materialists have all been crowded into biology.
[01:02:28 - 01:02:33]	 Meanwhile over in quantum physics, they're talking like occultists and none of the news
[01:02:33 - 01:02:36]	 has reached psychology and sociology yet.
[01:02:36 - 01:02:44]	 The house of science is in incredible disarray and it's because science's wish to describe
[01:02:44 - 01:02:48]	 nature, they've now dispensed with all the easy stuff.
[01:02:48 - 01:02:52]	 Now we're asking questions like what is language?
[01:02:52 - 01:02:53]	 What is mind?
[01:02:53 - 01:02:54]	 What is process?
[01:02:54 - 01:03:00]	 These are very deep and difficult questions and I think they're going to cause a revolution
[01:03:00 - 01:03:05]	 in the science and a reformation of its methods or science is not going to be adequate to
[01:03:05 - 01:03:06]	 the game.
[01:03:06 - 01:03:08]	 Well perhaps after some period of anarchy.
[01:03:08 - 01:03:10]	 Yes, well that's what we're going through.
[01:03:10 - 01:03:12]	 East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna.
[01:03:12 - 01:03:13]	 Hello.
[01:03:13 - 01:03:14]	 Hello there.
[01:03:14 - 01:03:15]	 Hi.
[01:03:15 - 01:03:16]	 Hi.
[01:03:16 - 01:03:17]	 Hi, I just want to start by saying thanks.
[01:03:17 - 01:03:20]	 And I wanted to say it's an honor to speak to Terrence.
[01:03:20 - 01:03:22]	 I'm a big admirer.
[01:03:22 - 01:03:23]	 Where are you sir?
[01:03:23 - 01:03:24]	 I'm in St. Louis.
[01:03:24 - 01:03:25]	 My name is Alex.
[01:03:25 - 01:03:26]	 I'm 21 in St. Louis, Missouri.
[01:03:26 - 01:03:27]	 All right.
[01:03:27 - 01:03:32]	 Okay, and I wanted to start by actually commenting on a couple of things that have been said
[01:03:32 - 01:03:33]	 earlier this evening.
[01:03:33 - 01:03:38]	 One, I'm looking really forward to 2012 and I'm looking really forward to being part of
[01:03:38 - 01:03:43]	 human evolution and being in control of that really.
[01:03:43 - 01:03:51]	 And I wanted to say about the throwing out of the rock that it seems kind of like that
[01:03:51 - 01:03:54]	 God has already thrown out the rocks on this planet.
[01:03:54 - 01:03:58]	 And that is plenty as is.
[01:03:58 - 01:03:59]	 That is the way things are.
[01:03:59 - 01:04:01]	 And that's the planet as we have it.
[01:04:01 - 01:04:07]	 And that should be plenty of knowledge as is for us to understand everything.
[01:04:07 - 01:04:14]	 And I've had some experience with psychedelics and I am not finished yet.
[01:04:14 - 01:04:17]	 Far from actually.
[01:04:17 - 01:04:22]	 But the truth to it is that my own personal belief is that you achieve true enlightenment
[01:04:22 - 01:04:30]	 after being sober and meditating in sobriety and getting inside yourself.
[01:04:30 - 01:04:32]	 The truth is not outside, it's inside.
[01:04:32 - 01:04:34]	 That's a very interesting point.
[01:04:34 - 01:04:36]	 Terrence, let me ask you a question.
[01:04:36 - 01:04:45]	 Do you contemplate the possibility that your trip will be complete before 2012?
[01:04:45 - 01:04:51]	 In other words, your personal trip that you will conclude at some point that you've done
[01:04:51 - 01:04:56]	 as much as you need to do and know what you need to know and don't need to do it anymore.
[01:04:56 - 01:04:58]	 I can imagine that.
[01:04:58 - 01:04:59]	 I can imagine that.
[01:04:59 - 01:05:09]	 What I would like to do is take my ideas and turn them over to a general community of interested
[01:05:09 - 01:05:12]	 people and let the chips fall where they may.
[01:05:12 - 01:05:18]	 You know, science is the only human endeavor where you actually get points for proving
[01:05:18 - 01:05:21]	 you're wrong.
[01:05:21 - 01:05:23]	 And I love that approach.
[01:05:23 - 01:05:28]	 I'm not interested in pontificating or building dogma or founding a cult.
[01:05:28 - 01:05:36]	 I'm interested in the ongoing adventure, which is a collective adventure, of generating ideas,
[01:05:36 - 01:05:41]	 testing them against reality and the evidence, discussing them with other people, and then
[01:05:41 - 01:05:45]	 going on to build better ideas.
[01:05:45 - 01:05:54]	 And I cannot believe that TimeWave Zero is finished or complete because I have finished
[01:05:54 - 01:05:55]	 with it.
[01:05:55 - 01:06:03]	 I'm hoping that like work done by greats in the past, this thing can actually be validated
[01:06:03 - 01:06:08]	 as a real insight into how nature works.
[01:06:08 - 01:06:09]	 Right.
[01:06:09 - 01:06:12]	 I'm glad to see you're not displaying your arrogant attitude.
[01:06:12 - 01:06:19]	 Yes, I would like to see this thing broken on the wheel of rational discourse or progressively
[01:06:19 - 01:06:21]	 advanced to new level.
[01:06:21 - 01:06:22]	 All right.
[01:06:22 - 01:06:26]	 West of the Rockies, without a lot of time left, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna.
[01:06:26 - 01:06:27]	 Hello.
[01:06:27 - 01:06:28]	 Hi.
[01:06:28 - 01:06:29]	 This is Dan from Northern California.
[01:06:29 - 01:06:30]	 Hi, Dan.
[01:06:30 - 01:06:31]	 Hi.
[01:06:31 - 01:06:32]	 Quick question, Terrence.
[01:06:32 - 01:06:33]	 Yeah.
[01:06:33 - 01:06:39]	 You know, Food of the Gods talked about early proto-Homonids encountering, you know, psychotropic
[01:06:39 - 01:06:45]	 plants, I guess psilocybin, and that, you know, being sort of the catalyst for this,
[01:06:45 - 01:06:49]	 you know, incredible leap of human consciousness.
[01:06:49 - 01:06:51]	 What about the next step in our evolution?
[01:06:51 - 01:06:56]	 Do you see it coming through some sort of psychoactive substance that we've either have
[01:06:56 - 01:06:58]	 yet to develop or encounter?
[01:06:58 - 01:07:02]	 Well, I think that we have encountered these things.
[01:07:02 - 01:07:09]	 I think the enormous creativity of the last half of the 20th century is a direct consequence
[01:07:09 - 01:07:16]	 of the rise of psychedelic chemistry and the breakdown of barriers between cultures.
[01:07:16 - 01:07:21]	 In other words, most of the people designing and building the internet have psychedelics
[01:07:21 - 01:07:22]	 in their path.
[01:07:22 - 01:07:23]	 Right.
[01:07:23 - 01:07:30]	 Most of the people in the music business, in fashion, in media, in scientific research,
[01:07:30 - 01:07:37]	 medical research, architecture, the dirty little secret about the creativity of 20th
[01:07:37 - 01:07:41]	 century civilization, at least in the last half of the 20th century, is that it rests
[01:07:41 - 01:07:46]	 so firmly on a psychedelic base, and yet we deny that.
[01:07:46 - 01:07:51]	 I've got one final question of God opposed to you with regard to our discussion on the
[01:07:51 - 01:07:52]	 internet.
[01:07:52 - 01:07:56]	 I interviewed Charles Ostman, an expert in nanotechnology.
[01:07:56 - 01:08:04]	 He predicts that within the next few years or even less, we will begin to encounter sentient
[01:08:04 - 01:08:09]	 entities within the internet.
[01:08:09 - 01:08:12]	 Artificial intelligences, I believe that will happen.
[01:08:12 - 01:08:15]	 Hans Moravec has written a lot about this.
[01:08:15 - 01:08:18]	 He would be a guy for your show, Art.
[01:08:18 - 01:08:25]	 And he's talked about how these AIs, these artificial intelligences, they learn 50,000
[01:08:25 - 01:08:27]	 times faster than a human being.
[01:08:27 - 01:08:33]	 Well, you turn one loose on the internet where it can talk to all these computers, it can
[01:08:33 - 01:08:37]	 make 50,000 years of progress in one year.
[01:08:37 - 01:08:43]	 Moravec thinks we're not even going to know what hit us when these things come into being.
[01:08:43 - 01:08:47]	 Listen, time as we must measure it is coming to a close.
[01:08:47 - 01:08:50]	 How many books have you written?
[01:08:50 - 01:08:59]	 Five or six, Invisible Landscape, Food of the Gods, The Magic Mushroom Grower's Guide,
[01:08:59 - 01:09:04]	 True Hallucinations, Archaic Revival, on and on.
[01:09:04 - 01:09:06]	 Where do people get these, regular bookstores?
[01:09:06 - 01:09:12]	 Oh, yeah, they're Bantam and HarperCollins, so any decent bookstore can have them or can
[01:09:12 - 01:09:13]	 order them.
[01:09:13 - 01:09:16]	 All right, suppose somebody would like to send you email on the internet.
[01:09:16 - 01:09:17]	 Now, be careful here.
[01:09:17 - 01:09:19]	 Okay, here it comes.
[01:09:19 - 01:09:20]	 HCE@well.com.
[01:09:20 - 01:09:29]	 That's HCE, here comes everybody, at well.com.
[01:09:29 - 01:09:30]	 HCE@well.com.
[01:09:30 - 01:09:31]	 Right.
[01:09:31 - 01:09:32]	 That's so appropriate.
[01:09:32 - 01:09:44]	 Here comes everybody indeed.
[01:09:44 - 01:09:48]	 Are you able to answer the majority of the communications?
[01:09:48 - 01:09:49]	 I try.
[01:09:49 - 01:09:50]	 It may be short.
[01:09:50 - 01:09:53]	 I'm getting about 70 email messages a day.
[01:09:53 - 01:09:58]	 What you're going to do to me, Art, I can't even imagine, but I will make a valiant try,
[01:09:58 - 01:10:00]	 a conciseness count.
[01:10:00 - 01:10:06]	 All right, it does indeed, and people should understand that with the volume you're about
[01:10:06 - 01:10:07]	 to get, it may be brief.
[01:10:07 - 01:10:10]	 Terrence, what a pleasure it has been.
[01:10:10 - 01:10:11]	 Again, we will do it someday.
[01:10:11 - 01:10:16]	 If they don't toss you into the volcano first, we'll do another interview one day.
[01:10:16 - 01:10:17]	 How about it?
[01:10:17 - 01:10:18]	 Well, I'm worried.
[01:10:18 - 01:10:21]	 I'll toss you after this one, but if you're there, I'll be here.
[01:10:21 - 01:10:22]	 All right, Terrence, done.
[01:10:22 - 01:10:23]	 Okay.
[01:10:23 - 01:10:24]	 Thank you, my friend.
[01:10:24 - 01:10:25]	 Bye-bye.
[01:10:25 - 01:10:26]	 Take care.
[01:10:26 - 01:10:28]	 From the big island of Hawaii, he's headed back up to his mountain.
[01:10:28 - 01:10:31]	 And me, I may be headed for the volcano.
[01:10:31 - 01:10:32]	 Who knows?
[01:10:32 - 01:10:33]	 That's HCE@well.com.
[01:10:33 - 01:10:34]	 When it's all right, it's all right.
[01:10:34 - 01:10:35]	 It's all right.
[01:10:35 - 01:10:36]	 It's all right.