[00:00:00 - 00:00:07] is Dennis McKenna, Dr. Dennis McKenna, the brother of Terrence McKenna, the late Terrence McKenna, [00:00:07 - 00:00:15] who was on this program many times, was a good friend. Terrence, God bless him, is gone now, and [00:00:15 - 00:00:25] I'm so sorry, he was such a great man, he was such a great mind, but you're about to have a strange journey yourself, [00:00:25 - 00:00:34] because his brother Dennis, he almost, frankly, he sounds like a clone, but I'll let you decide for yourself. [00:00:34 - 00:00:41] Last hour we talked with Richard C. Hoagland, we've got a link up on the website right now to the John Blen statement made on Frazier, [00:00:41 - 00:00:48] or at least a sort of a little part of it, you can see that little part right now by going to my website at www.artbell.com, [00:00:48 - 00:00:54] everybody's taken a look at that one, NBC posted it, put it up there, it's actual video with the audio, [00:00:54 - 00:01:02] and only a partial statement, and then just to sort of wrap that up, Anne in Albuquerque, New Mexico writes, [00:01:02 - 00:01:08] "Hey Art, is it possible that Richard C. could be the Antichrist?" [00:01:08 - 00:01:12] Yeah, I thought about that. Sure, it's possible. [00:01:21 - 00:01:31] Now, Dennis McKenna, who sent me the following bio on himself, I'm going to try and read this, no guarantees. [00:01:31 - 00:01:45] For the last 25 years, Dennis McKenna has pursued the interdisciplinary study of ethno-pharmacology and plant hallucinogens. [00:01:45 - 00:01:54] He is co-author, he is co-author of course with his brother Terrence, of the invisible landscape mind hallucinogens and the I Ching, [00:01:54 - 00:02:03] Seabury Press, 1975, Citadel Press, 1991, a philosophical and metaphysical exploration of the ontological implications of psychedelic drugs [00:02:03 - 00:02:10] which resulted from the two brothers' early investigations of the Amazonian hallucinogens in 1971. [00:02:10 - 00:02:16] He received his doctorate in 1984 from the University of British Columbia. [00:02:16 - 00:02:23] His doctoral research focused on enthropharmacological investigations of the botany, chemistry, and pharmacology of [00:02:23 - 00:02:38] Acouza and Ukubi, two orally active, I believe it's tryptamine based hallucinogens used by indigenous peoples of the Northwest Amazon. [00:02:38 - 00:02:46] Following the completion of his doctorate, Dr. McKenna received post-doctoral research fellowships in the laboratory of clinical pharmacology, [00:02:46 - 00:02:52] National Institute of Mental Health, and the Department of Neurology, Stanford University School of Medicine. [00:02:52 - 00:03:00] In 1990, he joined Shaman Pharmacology, Dennis, he joined Shaman what? [00:03:00 - 00:03:01] Pharmaceuticals. [00:03:01 - 00:03:04] Pharmaceuticals, oh pharmaceuticals, as director of? [00:03:04 - 00:03:06] Ethno-pharmacology. [00:03:06 - 00:03:08] Thank you, you're going to help me right through this. [00:03:08 - 00:03:19] Then went back to Minnesota, I guess, in 1993 to join the Aveda Corporation, manufacturer of a natural cosmetics product as senior research pharmacologist. [00:03:19 - 00:03:21] Pharmacognosist. [00:03:21 - 00:03:22] You want to read the rest of this? [00:03:22 - 00:03:25] No. [00:03:25 - 00:03:34] He currently works as a scientific consultant to clients in the herbal, nutritional, and pharmaceutical industries together with two colleagues [00:03:34 - 00:03:43] in the natural products industry, he incorporated the Nonprofit Institute for Natural Products Research, or INPR, in October of '98 to promote research and scientific education [00:03:43 - 00:03:47] with respect to botanical medicines and other natural medicines. [00:03:47 - 00:03:57] He is currently a senior lecturer at the Center for Spirituality and Healing, that's interesting, in the Academic Health Center at the University of Minnesota. [00:03:57 - 00:04:04] Dr. McHannan serves on the advisory board of the American Botanical Council and on the editorial board of Dennis. [00:04:04 - 00:04:05] Phytomedicine. [00:04:05 - 00:04:07] Thank you, International Journal of... [00:04:07 - 00:04:10] Phytotherapy and Phytopharmacology. [00:04:10 - 00:04:16] Wonderful, founding board member and vice president of the Hefner, right, Hefner? [00:04:16 - 00:04:17] Hefner. [00:04:17 - 00:04:19] Okay, Hefner. [00:04:19 - 00:04:21] Not to be confused with Hefner. [00:04:21 - 00:04:28] Okay, a nonprofit scientific organization dedicated to the investigation of therapeutic applications for psychedelic plants and compounds. [00:04:28 - 00:04:36] He's also served as board member and research advisor to Botanical Dimensions, a nonprofit organization dedicated to the investigation of... [00:04:36 - 00:04:38] Ethnomedically. [00:04:38 - 00:04:39] Significant plants. [00:04:39 - 00:04:44] He was a primary organizer and key scientific collaborator for the... [00:04:44 - 00:04:45] WASCA. [00:04:45 - 00:04:49] Project, an international biomedical study of... [00:04:49 - 00:04:50] WASCA. [00:04:50 - 00:04:56] A psychoactive drink used in ritual context by indigenous peoples and... [00:04:56 - 00:04:57] Syncratic. [00:04:57 - 00:04:59] Religious groups in Brazil. [00:04:59 - 00:05:01] He has conducted extensive... [00:05:01 - 00:05:02] Ethnobotanical. [00:05:02 - 00:05:05] Field work in the Peruvian, Colombian, and Brazilian Amazon. [00:05:05 - 00:05:10] He has served as invited speaker at numerous scientific congresses, seminars, and symposia. [00:05:10 - 00:05:17] Dr. McHannan's author or co-author of over 35 scientific papers in peer-reviewed journals. [00:05:17 - 00:05:20] His publications have appeared in the Journal of... [00:05:20 - 00:05:21] Ethno-Pharmacology. [00:05:21 - 00:05:32] The European Journal of Pharmacology, Brain Research, Journal of Neuroscience, Journal of Neurochemistry, Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease, Economic Botany, and elsewhere. [00:05:32 - 00:05:34] My God Almighty, Dennis. [00:05:34 - 00:05:36] Welcome to the program. [00:05:36 - 00:05:39] Thank you, Art. It's great to be here. [00:05:39 - 00:05:41] And thank you for the help. [00:05:41 - 00:05:42] Am I on the air? [00:05:42 - 00:05:44] Of course you're on the air. [00:05:44 - 00:05:45] All right. [00:05:45 - 00:05:47] You're on the air. [00:05:47 - 00:05:52] And it's like listening to Terrence to hear your voice. [00:05:52 - 00:05:56] I was so shocked when I called you and we talked on the phone. [00:05:56 - 00:05:59] I just sat there kind of blown away. [00:05:59 - 00:06:00] Just blown away. [00:06:00 - 00:06:04] Yes, well, everyone says we sound the same, especially on the telephone. [00:06:04 - 00:06:05] Oh. [00:06:05 - 00:06:08] And here on the air, believe me, you sound the same. [00:06:08 - 00:06:12] Now, when you and I talked on the phone, putting all of this simply, [00:06:12 - 00:06:23] you said that you were more into the science of drugs while your brother Terrence was, in my words, probably more hand-to-mouth. [00:06:23 - 00:06:24] Well, yeah. [00:06:24 - 00:06:30] We sort of have a division of labor, I guess you could call it. [00:06:30 - 00:06:35] He was more interested in the philosophical and metaphysical side, [00:06:35 - 00:06:40] and I was more interested in what you might call the nuts and bolts side, although -- [00:06:40 - 00:06:42] So, in other words, when you would -- [00:06:42 - 00:06:45] Obviously, there was a lot of overlap of those two things. [00:06:45 - 00:06:49] So, for example, when you would discover a new drug, you'd say, "Here, take this, Terrence." [00:06:49 - 00:06:53] Not exactly. [00:06:53 - 00:06:56] Or Terrence said, "Hey, what you got there? I'll take that." [00:06:56 - 00:07:01] I just got curious about how these things work. [00:07:01 - 00:07:11] And, you know, those of your listeners that are familiar with our experiences in the Amazon and have read The Invisible Landscape [00:07:11 - 00:07:23] will know that we came up against a number of things down there that it's very hard for science to get its hands around. [00:07:23 - 00:07:25] Explain -- No, actually, you know what? [00:07:25 - 00:07:30] I have never really heard the story of what happened in the Amazon. [00:07:30 - 00:07:36] Well, I don't know if we can go into it here. It's kind of a long story. [00:07:36 - 00:07:39] Well, maybe the high points. [00:07:39 - 00:07:49] Well, those of you who have read my brother's book, True Hallucinations, will be familiar with it. [00:07:49 - 00:08:03] I would like to say, before we get into that, I'd like to say that I very much appreciate the support that has come. [00:08:03 - 00:08:06] It's been a rough couple of years here. [00:08:06 - 00:08:07] Horrible, actually. [00:08:07 - 00:08:12] And I very much appreciate the support that came from many of your listeners. [00:08:12 - 00:08:22] There's really no way to thank so many people, but while we were struggling with Terrence's illness and his family, [00:08:22 - 00:08:32] we always knew that we weren't alone, that many people love Terrence so much and we could feel that support. [00:08:32 - 00:08:35] Terrence had a brain tumor, for those who don't know. [00:08:35 - 00:08:39] And, you know, Dennis, I interviewed Terrence very much toward the end. [00:08:39 - 00:08:40] Right. [00:08:40 - 00:08:44] And his philosophic--he was so good with it. [00:08:44 - 00:08:52] His philosophical approach to the possibility that he might die was incredible. [00:08:52 - 00:08:54] I had him on the air and he talked about it. [00:08:54 - 00:08:55] He talked about it. [00:08:55 - 00:08:58] And, boy, did he have it together. [00:08:58 - 00:08:59] Yes, he had it together. [00:08:59 - 00:09:01] He had it together. [00:09:01 - 00:09:12] And as he said in a couple of interviews, you know, if the use of these plants and working with these shamanic states [00:09:12 - 00:09:16] doesn't prepare you for what lies beyond, I don't know what does. [00:09:16 - 00:09:18] And I think that's true. [00:09:18 - 00:09:25] I think that, you know, a lot of his experiences in life, you know, led up to that. [00:09:25 - 00:09:28] So there were no real surprises. [00:09:28 - 00:09:36] And, you know, in the latter stages, he was--I think he was very much ready to take control of the starship [00:09:36 - 00:09:40] and let it take him where it would. [00:09:40 - 00:09:50] But I did want to, you know, express my gratitude to so many of your listeners that were, you know, part of that struggle. [00:09:50 - 00:09:57] Well, I had Terrence on many times and the audience knew him as one of their own. [00:09:57 - 00:09:59] So it could not have been any other way. [00:09:59 - 00:10:00] That's right. [00:10:00 - 00:10:08] He was absolutely, Dennis, a remarkable--one of the most remarkable men I've ever had the pleasure to know. [00:10:08 - 00:10:13] So I guess that's pretty good as remembrances go. [00:10:13 - 00:10:15] One of the most remarkable people I've ever known. [00:10:15 - 00:10:18] God, what a mind he had. [00:10:18 - 00:10:20] Yes, he had a great mind. [00:10:20 - 00:10:28] And he was a remarkable person in ways that, you know, the world is a poorer place without him. [00:10:28 - 00:10:33] And I'm very lucky to have had, you know, to have grown up with him. [00:10:33 - 00:10:38] I mean, he was obviously a great influence on me and on many people. [00:10:38 - 00:10:43] Well, anyway, the two of you did go to the Amazon, and he never really talked a lot about that. [00:10:43 - 00:10:49] We touched on it, but he never really talked a lot about the nuts and bolts of what actually went on down there. [00:10:49 - 00:10:50] Uh-huh, uh-huh. [00:10:50 - 00:10:58] Well, I guess how to get into this story, you know, we both-- [00:10:58 - 00:11:00] Okay, why did you go down? [00:11:00 - 00:11:01] What made you go down there? [00:11:01 - 00:11:13] Well, we both grew up in the '60s, of course, and I guess you could say we were hippies during that period of foment in the United States. [00:11:13 - 00:11:19] And, you know, I was in Haight-Ashbury in '67, and Terrence was living in Berkeley. [00:11:19 - 00:11:32] And so we were interested in psychedelics, you know, and sort of in an experimental phase of those with our lives. [00:11:32 - 00:11:50] But the one that stuck out in our experience at that time was one that still is fairly rare, and that is DMT, which stands for dimethyltryptamine. [00:11:50 - 00:11:59] Back in the '60s, it used to be called the businessman's trip because it's so short in duration, [00:11:59 - 00:12:11] the way that DMT is normally taken, pure synthetic DMT is, well, essentially you smoke the free base as you do crack. [00:12:11 - 00:12:22] And when you do that, it produces a very rapid but extremely intense psychedelic experience which lasts about ten minutes. [00:12:22 - 00:12:27] Terrence had a quote about that experience that he used to say. [00:12:27 - 00:12:31] I'm trying to remember what he compared it to. [00:12:31 - 00:12:36] A roller coaster ride or perhaps a rocket ship ride? [00:12:36 - 00:12:39] No, well, something about, yeah, a rocket ship ride. [00:12:39 - 00:12:46] But he said it was probably the closest thing to heaven on earth or something fairly significant like that. [00:12:46 - 00:12:52] Well, I don't know if it's exactly heaven on earth because it can be quite terrifying. [00:12:52 - 00:13:04] I mean, it's very overwhelming in that form, and it's also sort of very hard to pull anything out of it. [00:13:04 - 00:13:17] It's such a profound and such a rapid experience that you come back not really able to English much that you experience. [00:13:17 - 00:13:22] I mean, about all you can say is, my God, what happened? [00:13:22 - 00:13:26] And that was part of our motivation. [00:13:26 - 00:13:37] That was at least the exoteric motivation for going to the Amazon because we had heard in a paper by an ethnobotanist, [00:13:37 - 00:13:46] Ari Schultes, about a very obscure hallucinogen used by the Wittoto in the Northwest Amazon. [00:13:46 - 00:13:58] It was called ukue in their language, and it was a DMT-containing sap or resin from a tree. [00:13:58 - 00:14:09] But what was unusual about it and what's unusual about the pharmacology of DMT to a certain extent is that DMT is not orally active. [00:14:09 - 00:14:14] It is, if you eat it pure DMT, nothing happens. [00:14:14 - 00:14:15] You have to smoke it. [00:14:15 - 00:14:25] You have to smoke it in the synthetic form because it's inactivated by enzymes in your gut and in your liver called monoamine oxidase. [00:14:25 - 00:14:28] So it's got to go straight from the lungs to the bloodstream. [00:14:28 - 00:14:31] Right, or somehow bypass that system. [00:14:31 - 00:14:43] Now, in the case of ayahuasca, which is the other beverage, the psychoactive beverage that forms the linchpin of Amazonian shamanism [00:14:43 - 00:14:51] and has been sort of my preoccupation for 30 years, they get around this by combining two plants. [00:14:51 - 00:15:02] They combine the leaves of one plant, which they call chacruna, with the bark of a vine, which they call ayahuasca, [00:15:02 - 00:15:05] and the beverage itself is called ayahuasca. [00:15:05 - 00:15:17] The bark contains compounds which are monoamine oxidase inhibitors, and when combined with the leaves of the chacruna, [00:15:17 - 00:15:25] which contain DMT, that protects the DMT from degradation by this monoamine oxidase enzyme system. [00:15:25 - 00:15:28] So now it becomes orally active. [00:15:28 - 00:15:29] Exactly. [00:15:29 - 00:15:37] But it becomes a very different experience. Instead of lasting 10 minutes, it lasts more like three or four hours. [00:15:37 - 00:15:38] Oh my. [00:15:38 - 00:15:50] But the intensity is less. So it's like the slowed down, it's like you're seeing it at normal speed, and when you smoke it, you're seeing it on the fast forward. [00:15:50 - 00:15:58] Then as I have no frame of reference to know what this combination of drugs is like, is it like LSD? [00:15:58 - 00:16:02] Is it a lesser experience? [00:16:02 - 00:16:08] No, I wouldn't say it's a lesser experience. It's a different experience than LSD. [00:16:08 - 00:16:10] If you compare intensity levels. [00:16:10 - 00:16:17] Again, it's always related to dose. I mean ayahuasca can be extremely intense. [00:16:17 - 00:16:24] It's similar to mushrooms, and it's similar chemically and pharmacologically to mushrooms, [00:16:24 - 00:16:31] because that is, I mean psilocybin and DMT are in the same chemical family. [00:16:31 - 00:16:39] Mescaline is in a different chemical family. DMT and psilocybin are called tryptamines, [00:16:39 - 00:16:46] and mescaline and bariochia are in another class called phenethylamines. [00:16:46 - 00:16:54] So it's actually different. But ayahuasca is unique in terms of its effects. [00:16:54 - 00:17:02] You can't really say it's somewhat like LSD, yes. It's somewhat like mushrooms, yes. But it's really its own. [00:17:02 - 00:17:09] And there's no language to describe the difference from LSD or from some other experience that somebody out there might relate to? [00:17:09 - 00:17:20] Well, I think you could say LSD, at least in my past experience, has been, excuse me, tends to be more of a personal thing, [00:17:20 - 00:17:32] more psychoanalytic, more in a sense about you and about your psychology, whatever problems you may have, that sort of thing. [00:17:32 - 00:17:39] Ayahuasca can be that way, but I think there are more transpersonal elements, more archetypical elements. [00:17:39 - 00:17:52] It's much like dreaming, and it's like dreaming while you're awake, in the sense that you experience many archetypal-type themes. [00:17:52 - 00:18:07] And it's, well, I guess that's the best way to describe it. People do use it for self-examination and psychotherapy, [00:18:07 - 00:18:15] but it seems to incorporate, it seems to be, I guess, more of a direct pipeline to the collective unconscious. [00:18:15 - 00:18:20] Now that's something Terrence said about it. That's something Terrence said about it. [00:18:20 - 00:18:26] Dennis, Doctor, we're at the bottom of the hour. Should I call you Doctor or Dennis or both? [00:18:26 - 00:18:27] Dennis is fine. [00:18:27 - 00:18:33] Dennis is fine. All right, stay right there, Dennis. We're at the bottom of the hour. I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM. [00:18:33 - 00:18:40] And don't do any of this. If you want to listen, that's fine, but nobody's encouraging you to do any drugs. Stay natural. You'll be happy. 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