[00:00:00 - 00:00:07]	 My guest is Dennis McKenna, Dr. Dennis McKenna, the brother of the late Terrence McKenna, who's on the show many times with me.
[00:00:07 - 00:00:13]	 And we have had many discussions on this program about drugs, and we're going to touch on many of them tonight.
[00:00:13 - 00:00:23]	 And none of this discussion should be interpreted by anybody out there as an indication that you should go out and do it.
[00:00:23 - 00:00:28]	 This is an examination of what some of this is all about, that's all.
[00:00:28 - 00:00:31]	 Drugs are part of our life, they're very much part of our life.
[00:00:31 - 00:00:37]	 Whether the over-the-counter type, the type you get at the store where it says "drugs," or the guy down the street.
[00:00:37 - 00:00:40]	 You know, drugs are part of our society.
[00:00:40 - 00:00:46]	 Actually, a very large part of our society, so dare we talk about them? Absolutely.
[00:00:54 - 00:00:59]	 Once again, Dr. Dennis McKenna. Dennis, welcome back. Thank you.
[00:00:59 - 00:01:11]	 How much of the experience of the drugs themselves crossed into a sort of metaphysical search?
[00:01:11 - 00:01:18]	 How much of a part of all of this was that?
[00:01:18 - 00:01:25]	 Well, I think at that time in our lives it was very much bound up with the metaphysical search.
[00:01:25 - 00:01:36]	 You know, we were so impressed with the effects of synthetic DMT, and so sort of frustrated with the rapidity of the experience.
[00:01:36 - 00:01:46]	 That was the rationale for going to the Amazon to look for this orally active, this very obscure orally active form,
[00:01:46 - 00:01:56]	 called ukuhi. As it turned out, ukuhi, which I returned to the Amazon ten years later and did part of my doctoral work,
[00:01:56 - 00:02:03]	 turned out not to be that interesting. But in the process of investigating these things,
[00:02:03 - 00:02:12]	 we encountered the mushrooms when we went to La Churrera for the first time, and eventually ayahuasca.
[00:02:12 - 00:02:21]	 And those are the orally active tryptamine hallucinogens that really have more depth to them.
[00:02:21 - 00:02:29]	 I'm somewhat curious. I'm sorry, as you go to the Amazon, and Terrence and yourself are in the Amazon,
[00:02:29 - 00:02:36]	 you're going to some natives way out in the middle of nowhere. How do you begin to ask them,
[00:02:36 - 00:02:42]	 "Take us to the plants, we want to have this experience." How do you approach them?
[00:02:42 - 00:02:51]	 Well, we were very naive at the time. We didn't really know. We had read a few papers from Schulte's work,
[00:02:51 - 00:03:02]	 from the botanical museum leaflets that reported this for the first time. We were 20 years old, 20 and 24 years old respectively.
[00:03:02 - 00:03:09]	 We figured the world was our oyster, and we could just go down there and get to it.
[00:03:09 - 00:03:20]	 And as it turned out, that wasn't so far wrong. There was an amusing incident when we were on the way to La Churrera,
[00:03:20 - 00:03:30]	 which is the ancestral home of the Wittoto and this area of diffusion where this ukuhe is most widely used,
[00:03:30 - 00:03:38]	 even though now it's pretty much a dying cultural tradition. But there was a Colombian anthropologist at one of the villages
[00:03:38 - 00:03:47]	 that we passed through, Dr. Caldier, and he claimed that if we went and asked the people for ukuhe,
[00:03:47 - 00:03:54]	 most would not know what we were talking about because it was a secret that only the shaman knew.
[00:03:54 - 00:04:00]	 And if we had a chance to ask a shaman, he would probably kill us for even mentioning it.
[00:04:00 - 00:04:02]	 Really? They told you that?
[00:04:02 - 00:04:09]	 Well, he told us that, but he was a little paranoid himself. So as it turned out, it wasn't so bad.
[00:04:09 - 00:04:19]	 And when I actually went back in 1981 as a graduate student to sort of more systematically go about this,
[00:04:19 - 00:04:29]	 I went to a different place. Colombia was difficult to travel in at that point, and I went to Peru to a village called Pucuwerquillo,
[00:04:29 - 00:04:39]	 which is just north of the Amazon, downriver from the city of Iquitos. And that is sort of the new home of the Wittoto
[00:04:39 - 00:04:46]	 after they were driven out of Colombia during the rubber boom. And so I went there and interviewed many people
[00:04:46 - 00:04:59]	 and sampled many collections. And what I found was that it's a kind of a disappearing tradition among these people
[00:04:59 - 00:05:08]	 who have been very much culturally impacted. And it was kind of like, well, I remember my grandfather knew something about this.
[00:05:08 - 00:05:09]	 Really?
[00:05:09 - 00:05:17]	 My father knew something. I can try and make it. Of course, they didn't speak English or even Spanish. We were working through translators.
[00:05:17 - 00:05:31]	 But that seemed to be the position it held at that time. But we did find one or two older people, older shaman in this group,
[00:05:31 - 00:05:41]	 who really did know how to make the real stuff. And so we did end up getting samples, bringing them back to the lab,
[00:05:41 - 00:05:48]	 and being able to, well, for my personal reasons, complete the thesis.
[00:05:48 - 00:05:52]	 How long were you there in both instances?
[00:05:52 - 00:06:04]	 Well, in 1971, when we went down, we weren't really there that long. We went down in January of '71 and came out around the end of April.
[00:06:04 - 00:06:05]	 That's quite a while.
[00:06:05 - 00:06:15]	 Right. And in '81, when I went to Peru, I wasn't a puke or a keel the whole time. I was traveling all over the country
[00:06:15 - 00:06:22]	 because I was also investigating ayahuasca. I was there about five and a half months.
[00:06:22 - 00:06:23]	 Oh, no. That's quite a while.
[00:06:23 - 00:06:25]	 It was a while.
[00:06:25 - 00:06:29]	 Did you actually live out with the natives for a while?
[00:06:29 - 00:06:41]	 Part of the time. But when you're working with ayahuasca, ayahuasca in the Amazon, among the mestizo populations,
[00:06:41 - 00:06:52]	 is really a sort of an urban phenomenon. There are still tribes out in, you know, up the rivers that are using it,
[00:06:52 - 00:07:01]	 but it's sort of, it's become amalgamated into mestizo folk medicine. So it's really on the outskirts of cities like Iquitos and Pucallpa.
[00:07:01 - 00:07:09]	 How much longer will all of this even be there? In other words, you're saying it's being assimilated, it's disappearing,
[00:07:09 - 00:07:16]	 in another 10 or 20 or 50 years, would you not be able to make that trip with the same results?
[00:07:16 - 00:07:25]	 It would be difficult. I mean, a lot of these indigenous tribes are definitely in a state of cultural decline.
[00:07:25 - 00:07:35]	 They've been impacted by so many factors, you know, relocation, dislocation, and loss of their cultures.
[00:07:35 - 00:07:47]	 But in mestizo folk medicine, where ayahuasca is commonly used and is kind of at the center of a whole pharmacopia of medicinal plants
[00:07:47 - 00:07:57]	 that these people use, I think that tradition is going to survive, especially now that there's so much interest from American tourists.
[00:07:57 - 00:08:07]	 I mean, this whole industry of drug tourism, you know, which I don't necessarily think is entirely a bad thing or a good thing,
[00:08:07 - 00:08:14]	 but it's, in a sense, it's been a shot in the arm to the traditional people.
[00:08:14 - 00:08:20]	 You mean there are people that virtually, they're drug tourists? They go down there just to...
[00:08:20 - 00:08:27]	 People that go down to have these experiences, usually with ayahuasca.
[00:08:27 - 00:08:35]	 The problem is that there's also, you know, any time there's a revival, there's also a lot of charlatans.
[00:08:35 - 00:08:43]	 It's not easy to get to the people that really know what they're doing, but you can easily find anybody on the street corners of Iquitos
[00:08:43 - 00:08:48]	 who'd be willing to sell you, you know, something that they call ayahuasca.
[00:08:48 - 00:08:52]	 I wouldn't really be sure that that's what it is, but yeah.
[00:08:52 - 00:09:02]	 So, you know, it's a mixed bag, but I think, you know, one of the positive things about it is that these, some of these people are sincere
[00:09:02 - 00:09:06]	 and they are rediscovering their own traditions.
[00:09:06 - 00:09:16]	 I mean, I don't think ayahuasca is going to go away very soon, and in fact, you know, there are indications that it may be spreading
[00:09:16 - 00:09:21]	 and that, you know, again, that has negative and positive aspects about it.
[00:09:21 - 00:09:22]	 Let's talk a little bit about...
[00:09:22 - 00:09:31]	 I would like to say, I appreciate that you sort of put in that caveat there at the end of the hour.
[00:09:31 - 00:09:35]	 I'm not on this program to advocate that anyone should...
[00:09:35 - 00:09:36]	 The use of drugs, yes.
[00:09:36 - 00:09:47]	 ...any of these things. I think that they should be investigated. I disagree with the whole strategy of the war on drugs.
[00:09:47 - 00:09:55]	 I think that's very short-sighted, and I think that people should have, you know, personal choice to form relationships with plants,
[00:09:55 - 00:09:59]	 which is basically what this is about.
[00:09:59 - 00:10:02]	 I do have a lot of trouble with the war on drugs.
[00:10:02 - 00:10:03]	 Right.
[00:10:03 - 00:10:11]	 Particularly the way it's being orchestrated disproportionately with regard to marijuana, for example.
[00:10:11 - 00:10:15]	 Well, it doesn't... I mean, it simply doesn't work.
[00:10:15 - 00:10:23]	 I think the thing to do, you know, a better approach is to enable people to make informed choices.
[00:10:23 - 00:10:31]	 And, you know, when I say form relationships with plants, I use that term deliberately,
[00:10:31 - 00:10:41]	 because I think when you choose to use a drug of any sort, you're choosing to have a relationship with that substance.
[00:10:41 - 00:10:42]	 That's for sure.
[00:10:42 - 00:10:49]	 And, you know, just as you should be careful in choosing your friends and choosing the people you want to hang out with,
[00:10:49 - 00:10:57]	 you should be careful and make informed choices in terms of the substances you put into your body.
[00:10:57 - 00:11:06]	 And particularly with the psychedelics, the circumstances, the set and setting that Leary talked about is so important for the effects.
[00:11:06 - 00:11:11]	 And that is why shamanism is really the model.
[00:11:11 - 00:11:16]	 These people have been working with these substances for thousands of years.
[00:11:16 - 00:11:23]	 And, you know, if we're going to develop models, whether psychotherapeutic or shamanic or whatever,
[00:11:23 - 00:11:32]	 but you need to, in order to use these substances safely and, you know, in a way that has benefits,
[00:11:32 - 00:11:38]	 and I believe they can be used safely and they can be beneficial, but the context is so important.
[00:11:38 - 00:11:43]	 And this is the problem that in this culture we lack that context.
[00:11:43 - 00:11:46]	 We lack that traditional context.
[00:11:46 - 00:11:49]	 Are there laws against these drugs now in America?
[00:11:49 - 00:11:50]	 Which drugs?
[00:11:50 - 00:11:51]	 Well, DMT.
[00:11:51 - 00:11:55]	 DMT is a controlled substance, definitely.
[00:11:55 - 00:12:04]	 When it comes to plants that contain DMT, of which many, many do, because DMT is a very simple compound
[00:12:04 - 00:12:09]	 and it's very widespread in nature, the situation is much murkier.
[00:12:09 - 00:12:16]	 It's not clear, in fact, the plants themselves, as far as anyone knows, are not illegal.
[00:12:16 - 00:12:21]	 But then they contain a controlled substance, DMT.
[00:12:21 - 00:12:24]	 Our own brain contains DMT.
[00:12:24 - 00:12:28]	 So this is creating some legal conundrums right now.
[00:12:28 - 00:12:36]	 How can you ban all plants containing DMT without essentially criminalizing all of nature?
[00:12:36 - 00:12:42]	 You know, DMT has been detected in over 150 species of plants,
[00:12:42 - 00:12:46]	 and that's only because somebody has bothered to look.
[00:12:46 - 00:12:54]	 My personal belief is it's probably found in thousands, if not tens of thousands of plant genera.
[00:12:54 - 00:12:56]	 Doctor, quick question for you.
[00:12:56 - 00:13:05]	 Hallucinogens, the entire family, as a whole, are they addictive, physically addictive, in your opinion?
[00:13:05 - 00:13:06]	 No.
[00:13:06 - 00:13:09]	 No, they're not physically addictive.
[00:13:09 - 00:13:18]	 They don't work on that part of the brain that leads to addiction, which substances like cocaine, for instance,
[00:13:18 - 00:13:23]	 have a completely different neurochemistry, neuropharmacology,
[00:13:23 - 00:13:28]	 and they work on the parts of the brain that have to do with our pleasure sensations.
[00:13:28 - 00:13:31]	 And so they tend to create a craving.
[00:13:31 - 00:13:39]	 If anything, the hallucinogens are anti-addictive, or you're certainly, you know...
[00:13:39 - 00:13:41]	 Some people would take and say, "I'm not doing that again."
[00:13:41 - 00:13:42]	 Exactly.
[00:13:42 - 00:13:46]	 You sort of have to get your courage up to keep doing it.
[00:13:46 - 00:13:52]	 So, yeah, they're definitely not addictive in the physiological sense or the psychological sense.
[00:13:52 - 00:13:56]	 Are there diminishing returns as one continues to use it?
[00:13:56 - 00:14:04]	 Again, I think that depends on the substance that one is using, and it depends on the context in which you use it.
[00:14:04 - 00:14:11]	 If you use it for recreational purposes or without any real intent, I mean, in taking ayahuasca,
[00:14:11 - 00:14:18]	 they always emphasize that it's important to have an intent, then I think after a while there are diminishing returns
[00:14:18 - 00:14:26]	 because you have no framework in which to understand it.
[00:14:26 - 00:14:32]	 On the other hand, if you're working in a context, whether it's something that you create,
[00:14:32 - 00:14:42]	 sort of your self-referential context for learning, or whether it's a more traditional shamanic type context,
[00:14:42 - 00:14:47]	 then I think there are anything but diminishing returns.
[00:14:47 - 00:14:52]	 I mean, that's the thing, particularly with substances like ayahuasca.
[00:14:52 - 00:15:00]	 People shouldn't get involved with it without knowing that it's really a life's work.
[00:15:00 - 00:15:07]	 It's a path. It's not an instant. It's not a fast track to enlightenment or anything like that.
[00:15:07 - 00:15:09]	 It's like any other discipline.
[00:15:09 - 00:15:18]	 And to be involved with ayahuasca or many of these substances, really what I call the classic, classical hallucinogens,
[00:15:18 - 00:15:22]	 it's a discipline, and people should approach it that way.
[00:15:22 - 00:15:25]	 All right. Back to the war on drugs for just a second.
[00:15:25 - 00:15:33]	 Do you delineate in your own mind the difference between the hallucinogens and cocaine?
[00:15:33 - 00:15:38]	 For example, we've got, my God, over two million people in jail in America right now.
[00:15:38 - 00:15:46]	 There are various drug violations, very few of them, no doubt, relating to DMT or any other class of hallucinogens.
[00:15:46 - 00:15:52]	 Some, but the majority, cocaine and heroin and that sort of class of drugs.
[00:15:52 - 00:16:01]	 Right, right. Well, again, where I think a differentiation could be made that might be useful
[00:16:01 - 00:16:11]	 and might actually help clarify some of the issues on the war on drugs are to make a distinction between plants and compounds.
[00:16:11 - 00:16:24]	 If you look at the way coca is used in Peru among the indigenous peoples or even opium as a plant substance, it's much less harmful.
[00:16:24 - 00:16:25]	 Yeah, they chew it.
[00:16:25 - 00:16:33]	 They're much more difficult to become addicted or abused, and I think if the drug warriors were to say,
[00:16:33 - 00:16:36]	 "We'll make a distinction between plants and drugs.
[00:16:36 - 00:16:46]	 We will focus on substances that are extracted, purified, or synthesized," plants we're not so interested in.
[00:16:46 - 00:16:57]	 90% of the drug problem would go away if they would just say, "We're not going," primarily cannabis would drop out of the debate.
[00:16:57 - 00:17:01]	 "Well, it's an herb, and we're not that concerned with it."
[00:17:01 - 00:17:09]	 Well, what would happen if they brought coca plants, raw coca plants, to America and began selling them on the street or in a store,
[00:17:09 - 00:17:12]	 as they are sold in South America and used and chewed?
[00:17:12 - 00:17:17]	 Would it be an instant hit or would it be sort of, "Hey, what's the big deal?"
[00:17:17 - 00:17:19]	 It would be, "Hey, what's the big deal?"
[00:17:19 - 00:17:25]	 I don't think most people would bother with it because it is no big deal.
[00:17:25 - 00:17:33]	 I mean, coca is traditionally used as about as harmful as green tea.
[00:17:33 - 00:17:41]	 There have been studies that show that coca, among the people who live in the Andes who depend on it,
[00:17:41 - 00:17:43]	 it's an appetite suppressant.
[00:17:43 - 00:17:48]	 It also supplies minerals and vitamins that they don't ordinarily get in their diet.
[00:17:48 - 00:17:57]	 I mean, chewing coca leaves is, you know, it really has--it's like, you know, it's about as bad a habit as drinking coffee.
[00:17:57 - 00:17:59]	 That's what I was going to say. Is it like coffee?
[00:17:59 - 00:18:01]	 Yeah, it's somewhat like that.
[00:18:01 - 00:18:02]	 All mild.
[00:18:02 - 00:18:07]	 So then you think for the purposes of settling this damned war, this godforsaken war,
[00:18:07 - 00:18:12]	 we could delineate between plants and purified substances from plants.
[00:18:12 - 00:18:17]	 Well, I think that that would--yes, I think that that would be a step in the right direction.
[00:18:17 - 00:18:24]	 And if the government were to say, "We're going to focus our efforts on people that are extracting or synthesizing
[00:18:24 - 00:18:30]	 or making these pure substances, which are much more easily abused and inherently more dangerous
[00:18:30 - 00:18:36]	 because they're more potent," you know, I think that that would be a step in the right direction.
[00:18:36 - 00:18:45]	 I don't expect it to happen because I personally--you know, I don't think personally that the war on drugs
[00:18:45 - 00:18:49]	 is particularly about protecting people from drugs.
[00:18:49 - 00:18:56]	 You know, if that were the case, then all the focus would be on tobacco, you know, which is an herb.
[00:18:56 - 00:19:03]	 It also kills 400,000 people a year in this country as opposed to all other drugs of abuse,
[00:19:03 - 00:19:06]	 which kill maybe 20,000 people a year.
[00:19:06 - 00:19:08]	 Absolutely right. All right.
[00:19:08 - 00:19:10]	 So, you know--
[00:19:10 - 00:19:14]	 Here we are at the top of the hour already. Time really flies, as you can find out.
[00:19:14 - 00:19:19]	 So, Dr. McKenna, hold on. We'll get back to you after the news at the top of the hour.
[00:19:19 - 00:19:26]	 We're talking about drugs, all kinds of drugs, with Dr. Dennis McKenna. I'm Art Bell.
[00:19:26 - 00:19:49]	 [Music]