[00:00:00 - 00:00:05]	 Our next guest is Dr. Dennis McKenna and we are talking about drugs.
[00:00:05 - 00:00:08]	 We're talking about plants and we're talking about drugs and we're talking about the drug
[00:00:08 - 00:00:13]	 war and we're talking about all kinds of strange things and interesting things.
[00:00:13 - 00:00:19]	 So I suggest you stay right where you are because we have only just begun.
[00:00:19 - 00:00:23]	 Once again, here is Dr. Dennis McKenna.
[00:00:23 - 00:00:25]	 Dennis, welcome back.
[00:00:25 - 00:00:26]	 Thank you.
[00:00:26 - 00:00:30]	 I have a question for you that you can not, you certainly don't have to answer.
[00:00:30 - 00:00:32]	 You can consider it and not answer it.
[00:00:32 - 00:00:38]	 I spoke with Dr. Timothy Leary before he passed away briefly and had set up an interview and
[00:00:38 - 00:00:43]	 of course there wasn't enough life left and we never made it.
[00:00:43 - 00:00:45]	 Although he was very comfortable to the very end.
[00:00:45 - 00:00:46]	 He had a big cylinder next to him.
[00:00:46 - 00:00:48]	 It was a long story.
[00:00:48 - 00:00:58]	 When I interviewed Terrence, I asked Terrence something that I had heard about Dr. Leary
[00:00:58 - 00:01:05]	 and that was that out there somewhere, buried or secreted away in a place that might still
[00:01:05 - 00:01:14]	 be found, it is said and has been said for years, there are 20,000 hits of Blue Sandos,
[00:01:14 - 00:01:16]	 LSD.
[00:01:16 - 00:01:25]	 And Terrence chuckled a little and didn't exactly say he knew where they were but he
[00:01:25 - 00:01:30]	 didn't say he didn't know where they were.
[00:01:30 - 00:01:32]	 He didn't know where they were.
[00:01:32 - 00:01:33]	 You don't think he knew?
[00:01:33 - 00:01:34]	 Of course not.
[00:01:34 - 00:01:35]	 Well.
[00:01:35 - 00:01:37]	 I think that is an urban myth.
[00:01:37 - 00:01:39]	 An urban legend, you really think so?
[00:01:39 - 00:01:40]	 I do.
[00:01:40 - 00:01:43]	 You don't think Timothy socked him away somewhere, huh?
[00:01:43 - 00:01:45]	 Well I don't know, maybe he did.
[00:01:45 - 00:01:47]	 Maybe he did, right.
[00:01:47 - 00:01:51]	 I hope they are cold anyway or they won't be much good.
[00:01:51 - 00:01:52]	 Well that is true, isn't it?
[00:01:52 - 00:01:56]	 Alright, so urban legend.
[00:01:56 - 00:01:59]	 Somebody writes, I have got this screen I can look at, this computer screen and people
[00:01:59 - 00:02:02]	 can send what is called a fast-pass and ask questions.
[00:02:02 - 00:02:05]	 Somebody writes and says, would you ask Dr. McKenna please if the spraying of defoliant
[00:02:05 - 00:02:12]	 in South America, which we are doing now due to the whole drug war thing, is affecting
[00:02:12 - 00:02:16]	 these plants in the areas that you talked about?
[00:02:16 - 00:02:19]	 Well it's, yes.
[00:02:19 - 00:02:23]	 It's certainly, I mean it's affecting everything in the areas that we are talking about.
[00:02:23 - 00:02:33]	 I actually, Dr. Mark Plotkin, who is an ethnobotanist that many of you may know about, he is very
[00:02:33 - 00:02:40]	 well known as the author of Tales of a Shaman's Apprentice among other things, but he is working
[00:02:40 - 00:02:46]	 down there with his nonprofit group called the Amazon Conservation Team and he has been
[00:02:46 - 00:02:53]	 doing quite a bit of work in southern Columbia and has seen first hand the impact of this
[00:02:53 - 00:02:55]	 defoliation.
[00:02:55 - 00:03:01]	 It's not only, I mean the problem is that it's very hard to target the defoliant only
[00:03:01 - 00:03:03]	 on the coca fields.
[00:03:03 - 00:03:09]	 It also drifts over the crops that these people depend on for their food and the villages
[00:03:09 - 00:03:15]	 where the people live and anyone can go down there and see that the impact is tremendous.
[00:03:15 - 00:03:23]	 I mean children with terrible skin diseases, it's definitely impacting those people and
[00:03:23 - 00:03:27]	 it's, well it's outrageous.
[00:03:27 - 00:03:35]	 It basically amounts to international criminal behavior on the part of the United States
[00:03:35 - 00:03:36]	 in my opinion.
[00:03:36 - 00:03:42]	 There's got to be a better way to deal with this problem than toxifying the environment.
[00:03:42 - 00:03:44]	 Again, that's a war against the plants.
[00:03:44 - 00:03:48]	 It's not a war against the people that are extracting and purifying.
[00:03:48 - 00:03:55]	 Well yeah, it's a war, it's an attempt to exterminate the plants, which is in itself
[00:03:55 - 00:04:00]	 a bad idea, but the problem is it also impacts, I mean these plants are growing where these
[00:04:00 - 00:04:07]	 people live and they also grow their crops in the same or adjacent fields.
[00:04:07 - 00:04:14]	 So it gets in their food supply, it gets on the people themselves directly.
[00:04:14 - 00:04:20]	 This is just one of the consequences of this misguided policy.
[00:04:20 - 00:04:28]	 All right, a little about DMT and drugs like it.
[00:04:28 - 00:04:33]	 I played a song just for fun before you came on, Journey to the Center of the Mind, and
[00:04:33 - 00:04:38]	 at one part of that song it says, but be careful referring to the journey, you might not come
[00:04:38 - 00:04:39]	 back.
[00:04:39 - 00:04:48]	 Now with LSD there were some people that essentially didn't come back.
[00:04:48 - 00:04:55]	 I've always wondered, and I'd like your opinion, do you think that these are people who were
[00:04:55 - 00:05:03]	 predisposed to psychological difficulties in the first place or that the ingestion of
[00:05:03 - 00:05:09]	 whatever drug we're talking about here was the primary cause of extended difficulties?
[00:05:09 - 00:05:15]	 No, I think that in most cases, the incidences of people who quote unquote don't come back
[00:05:15 - 00:05:22]	 are extremely low for one thing, and I think that in most cases you can say that there
[00:05:22 - 00:05:31]	 were previous psychological problems and that the drugs, the LSD or whatever, was basically
[00:05:31 - 00:05:39]	 a catalyst that they were at risk of psychosis anyway.
[00:05:39 - 00:05:43]	 The problem of course is that these are the very people on the street level that are most
[00:05:43 - 00:05:45]	 likely to do something like that.
[00:05:45 - 00:05:50]	 Well, again, this comes back to the whole issue.
[00:05:50 - 00:05:57]	 Number one, psychedelics are not for everyone, and number two, you have to pay attention
[00:05:57 - 00:05:58]	 to set and setting.
[00:05:58 - 00:06:06]	 The context is so important because again, in the shamanic context, in the use of ayahuasca,
[00:06:06 - 00:06:13]	 for example, in Peru, yes, people do get into psychological difficulties.
[00:06:13 - 00:06:16]	 They can have panic reactions or anxiety.
[00:06:16 - 00:06:22]	 Many people often become convinced that they are either dying or that they are not going
[00:06:22 - 00:06:30]	 to come back, but the shaman has a bag of tricks essentially and is able to apply some
[00:06:30 - 00:06:37]	 of those tricks simply, very simple things such as singing one of these Icaros, one of
[00:06:37 - 00:06:44]	 these magical songs, or blowing tobacco smoke over the person or otherwise, do things to
[00:06:44 - 00:06:48]	 calm them down and kind of get them back on a stable setting.
[00:06:48 - 00:06:55]	 That's why it's very important to have a structured context, some sort of ritual context.
[00:06:55 - 00:07:05]	 Generally, it helps if there's a person, in this case the shaman, that people have confidence
[00:07:05 - 00:07:11]	 in that they sort of feel that this person is watching over them or this group of persons.
[00:07:11 - 00:07:15]	 It's one of the dangers with the drug tourism.
[00:07:15 - 00:07:18]	 Not all shaman are that experienced.
[00:07:18 - 00:07:20]	 And some you can't always trust.
[00:07:20 - 00:07:26]	 And so you sort of have to, it's better if you do this in a situation where you feel
[00:07:26 - 00:07:31]	 safe and you feel like the people that you're with really are looking after you and not
[00:07:31 - 00:07:36]	 just there to take your money.
[00:07:36 - 00:07:37]	 And that's the thing.
[00:07:37 - 00:07:44]	 I think in the context of our society, if these psychedelics, which I really, you know, you
[00:07:44 - 00:07:49]	 have to place them in a category apart from all of these other substances, which are more
[00:07:49 - 00:07:58]	 recreational, but the psychedelics are more of a spiritual or experiential thing.
[00:07:58 - 00:08:03]	 But I think if these things are ever going to be used, you know, in our culture, we have
[00:08:03 - 00:08:09]	 to develop some kind of models, some kind of context.
[00:08:09 - 00:08:11]	 It may not be traditional shamanism.
[00:08:11 - 00:08:16]	 We can't really integrate that into our culture, but we can take some of the elements and combine
[00:08:16 - 00:08:19]	 it with elements of psychotherapy, for example.
[00:08:19 - 00:08:21]	 Well, let's try this angle.
[00:08:21 - 00:08:30]	 Doctor, what would you say would be the psychological or metaphysical benefits or gains that a person
[00:08:30 - 00:08:35]	 might reasonably expect to take away from the experience?
[00:08:35 - 00:08:45]	 Well, it's hard to say because the experience is as individual as the person, and a lot
[00:08:45 - 00:08:47]	 of it depends on what your expectations are.
[00:08:47 - 00:08:52]	 Again, getting back to this issue of intent.
[00:08:52 - 00:08:58]	 You know, some people may take it, and in the case of ayahuasca, it's generally emphasized
[00:08:58 - 00:09:03]	 that it's important to have an expectation to express an intent.
[00:09:03 - 00:09:10]	 People may take it to have insights about their relationships, for example, or psychological
[00:09:10 - 00:09:19]	 problems, you know, maybe depression or sleep difficulties or even physical illnesses.
[00:09:19 - 00:09:25]	 People take ayahuasca to have insights about their physical state of health.
[00:09:25 - 00:09:30]	 Other people may take it to solve problems, you know, things that they're working on,
[00:09:30 - 00:09:36]	 intellectual things, or, you know, it's taken for all these purposes.
[00:09:36 - 00:09:43]	 So then it allows intense physical self-examination or intellectual self-examination?
[00:09:43 - 00:09:48]	 It allows for both, yes, physical and intellectual self-examination.
[00:09:48 - 00:09:50]	 I think that ayahuasca is unique.
[00:09:50 - 00:09:58]	 I mean, while the hallucinogens themselves stand apart from all of these other substances
[00:09:58 - 00:10:04]	 as unique, I think that ayahuasca is, again, unique among that group because I think that
[00:10:04 - 00:10:12]	 there is much more to its activity than just the psychological experience.
[00:10:12 - 00:10:17]	 It's not that you take it, you have the experience, and then it's over.
[00:10:17 - 00:10:24]	 It continues to work afterwards more than other hallucinogens.
[00:10:24 - 00:10:31]	 There's a lot of processing, both mental and physical, that goes on subsequent to the experience.
[00:10:31 - 00:10:33]	 Maybe you could comment on this for me.
[00:10:33 - 00:10:41]	 There are many scientists investigating near-death experiences, very, very interesting things
[00:10:41 - 00:10:47]	 produced by near-death experiences, associations with white light, relatives that have passed
[00:10:47 - 00:10:54]	 away, examination of one's own life flashing by you, that sort of thing.
[00:10:54 - 00:11:01]	 Is there a relationship of the pharmacology that occurs in the brain between any of these
[00:11:01 - 00:11:06]	 drugs and what might occur during a near-death experience to use Bose?
[00:11:06 - 00:11:08]	 Yes, I think there probably is.
[00:11:08 - 00:11:15]	 I think that these two territories interface with each other or share a common border.
[00:11:15 - 00:11:23]	 I mean, it is known, for example, that DMT and its close relative, 5-methoxy DMT, are
[00:11:23 - 00:11:25]	 both neurochemicals.
[00:11:25 - 00:11:29]	 They both occur in the normal human brain.
[00:11:29 - 00:11:33]	 We're not sure what their functions are.
[00:11:33 - 00:11:39]	 People have suggested, my colleague, Chase Callaway, a scientist in Finland who has worked
[00:11:39 - 00:11:46]	 on these issues suggests that maybe endogenous, that is internally occurring DMT, has to do
[00:11:46 - 00:11:50]	 with the modulation of dream states.
[00:11:50 - 00:11:57]	 He's come up with a very plausible and testable theory that could show that maybe this is
[00:11:57 - 00:12:01]	 the physiological function of DMT.
[00:12:01 - 00:12:09]	 Other experiments have shown that in stress situations, in states of extreme stress, and
[00:12:09 - 00:12:17]	 I think we can put death in that category, the levels of DMT in your circulation, in
[00:12:17 - 00:12:23]	 your spinal fluid, for example, and presumably in your brain, are elevated markedly.
[00:12:23 - 00:12:31]	 So it's possible that in the dying state, the brain is actually programmed to turn these
[00:12:31 - 00:12:39]	 things out and modulate the experience, which is not to say that it doesn't reduce it to
[00:12:39 - 00:12:41]	 a DMT experience.
[00:12:41 - 00:12:50]	 I think a DMT is probably an element of the process of dying and probably of the process
[00:12:50 - 00:12:52]	 of being born as well.
[00:12:52 - 00:12:53]	 Wow.
[00:12:53 - 00:12:57]	 That was a better question than I thought it was.
[00:12:57 - 00:12:59]	 That's really interesting.
[00:12:59 - 00:13:00]	 So then one might...
[00:13:00 - 00:13:07]	 I believe one of your guests was Dr. Rick Strassman on your program recently, or was
[00:13:07 - 00:13:08]	 that another...
[00:13:08 - 00:13:09]	 It may have been another host.
[00:13:10 - 00:13:18]	 Oh, he is a researcher, a colleague of mine and others in this field, and he was one of
[00:13:18 - 00:13:26]	 the first researchers to do some FDA-approved research on DMT at the University of New Mexico
[00:13:26 - 00:13:28]	 a few years ago.
[00:13:28 - 00:13:35]	 He was using synthetic DMT, administering it by injection, but he has recently written
[00:13:35 - 00:13:43]	 a book on his research called "DMT, the Spirit Molecule," and it's very interesting.
[00:13:43 - 00:13:49]	 He has some very interesting and provocative things to say in that book about the possible
[00:13:49 - 00:13:51]	 functions of DMT.
[00:13:51 - 00:13:58]	 For example, he suggests that at the 49th day of conception, which is in many traditions
[00:13:58 - 00:14:06]	 thought to be the moment that the soul enters the body, that the pineal gland, which is
[00:14:06 - 00:14:13]	 the source of one source, the primary source of these endogenous tryptamines, there is
[00:14:13 - 00:14:17]	 a spike in its synthesis of DMT.
[00:14:17 - 00:14:24]	 I'm not sure what the basis of his statement is, but I think people with an interest in
[00:14:24 - 00:14:28]	 DMT should pick this book up.
[00:14:28 - 00:14:29]	 It's quite interesting.
[00:14:29 - 00:14:30]	 I'm just in the middle of it.
[00:14:30 - 00:14:31]	 Well, that's fascinating.
[00:14:31 - 00:14:40]	 On the 49th day, when some say the soul is inculcated, there is a definite spike in the
[00:14:40 - 00:14:43]	 DMT or the presence of DMT in the brain?
[00:14:43 - 00:14:44]	 That's right.
[00:14:44 - 00:14:45]	 Wow.
[00:14:45 - 00:14:46]	 This is what he says.
[00:14:46 - 00:14:51]	 I haven't seen the paper for it, but this is what he says.
[00:14:51 - 00:14:52]	 Oh my.
[00:14:52 - 00:14:55]	 That really is very provocative.
[00:14:55 - 00:15:02]	 It's not unreasonable to expect that at death something similar may go on.
[00:15:02 - 00:15:11]	 Generally, in states of extreme stress or psychological stress, it's not unreasonable
[00:15:11 - 00:15:16]	 to think that that may trigger the release of DMT, which is actually released into the
[00:15:16 - 00:15:20]	 circulation as much as in the brain.
[00:15:20 - 00:15:29]	 The other organ in the body that synthesizes DMT is the adrenal glands, which are very
[00:15:29 - 00:15:32]	 much involved with the stress response.
[00:15:32 - 00:15:33]	 All right.
[00:15:33 - 00:15:41]	 Again, a question that you are just welcome to not answer it.
[00:15:41 - 00:15:47]	 While you've certainly concentrated on the science side of all this, it's hard to believe
[00:15:47 - 00:15:53]	 that back through the '60s and through the trips to the Amazon and all the time you spent
[00:15:53 - 00:16:00]	 with Terrence that you stayed a pure academic, that you would not have experienced all of
[00:16:00 - 00:16:01]	 this.
[00:16:01 - 00:16:02]	 Can we get that out of the way?
[00:16:02 - 00:16:05]	 Well, yes, I have.
[00:16:05 - 00:16:09]	 I think that's clear to everybody that knows our work.
[00:16:09 - 00:16:10]	 Yes.
[00:16:10 - 00:16:16]	 I have approached it from a scientific standpoint.
[00:16:16 - 00:16:23]	 You can't become a lens grinder or a telescope maker without occasionally looking through
[00:16:23 - 00:16:24]	 the telescope.
[00:16:24 - 00:16:25]	 Right.
[00:16:25 - 00:16:28]	 This is the analogy.
[00:16:28 - 00:16:37]	 So was the experience for you, would you describe it in as profound a manner as Terrence did,
[00:16:37 - 00:16:41]	 or was it for you a different experience?
[00:16:41 - 00:16:42]	 Which experience?
[00:16:42 - 00:16:43]	 Well, DMT.
[00:16:43 - 00:16:44]	 We'll stick to DMT.
[00:16:44 - 00:16:45]	 DMT, yeah, sure.
[00:16:45 - 00:16:52]	 Well, yeah, it was pretty profound.
[00:16:52 - 00:17:02]	 It is one of the most reliably profound experiences in the smoked form because it is so overwhelming.
[00:17:02 - 00:17:09]	 In the orally active forms, it's sometimes extremely profound and sometimes not so profound.
[00:17:09 - 00:17:20]	 Again, it sort of depends on the circumstances and sometimes you get a leg up and sometimes
[00:17:20 - 00:17:23]	 you don't in these orally active forms.
[00:17:23 - 00:17:32]	 But generally, I think that the orally active forms are probably the way, if nature meant
[00:17:32 - 00:17:38]	 for man to take DMT, it probably should have been in an orally active form potentiated
[00:17:38 - 00:17:39]	 by one of these MAO inhibitors.
[00:17:39 - 00:17:40]	 Well, you know what?
[00:17:40 - 00:17:42]	 That's a really good question all by itself.
[00:17:42 - 00:17:43]	 ... compatible with physiology.
[00:17:43 - 00:17:46]	 Doctor, that's a good question all by itself.
[00:17:46 - 00:17:54]	 Do you think that God or nature, however you want to phrase it, intended for man to make
[00:17:54 - 00:18:01]	 use of these plants and substances as has been done?
[00:18:01 - 00:18:03]	 Do you think it was intended that way?
[00:18:03 - 00:18:04]	 After all, they are here.
[00:18:04 - 00:18:06]	 Well, exactly.
[00:18:06 - 00:18:08]	 They are here.
[00:18:08 - 00:18:12]	 I'm a little uncomfortable with the idea that nature intended it.
[00:18:12 - 00:18:19]	 I think that we are part of nature and we have always had a relationship with plants.
[00:18:19 - 00:18:27]	 I think that is the context in which you have to understand the use of all of these psychoactive
[00:18:27 - 00:18:28]	 plants.
[00:18:28 - 00:18:36]	 It's part of a much vaster web of interaction that we have with the plant kingdom.
[00:18:36 - 00:18:43]	 All of these herbal medicines that people are interested in, the whole interest in natural
[00:18:43 - 00:18:49]	 healing and medicinal plants and so on is really an attempt, I think, on the part of
[00:18:49 - 00:19:01]	 an alienated, urbanized culture to get back to nature, to literally rediscover their roots.
[00:19:01 - 00:19:09]	 The psychoactive plants are within this context.
[00:19:09 - 00:19:15]	 I don't think there is somebody out there directing things.
[00:19:15 - 00:19:21]	 It's not like nature is conscious or God is telling us to take these plants.
[00:19:21 - 00:19:28]	 In the process of evolving on this planet as part of the biosphere, we have co-evolved
[00:19:28 - 00:19:32]	 with these plants and with these substances.
[00:19:32 - 00:19:36]	 On the other hand, there were the Ten Commandments and he didn't tell us not to take them.
[00:19:36 - 00:19:37]	 He didn't tell us.
[00:19:37 - 00:19:38]	 No.
[00:19:38 - 00:19:39]	 Doctor, hold on.
[00:19:39 - 00:19:40]	 We're at the bottom of the hour.
[00:19:40 - 00:19:41]	 We'll be right back from the high desert.
[00:19:41 - 00:19:42]	 I'm Art Bell.
[00:19:42 - 00:19:45]	 My guest is Dr. Dennis McKenna.
[00:19:45 - 00:19:52]	 Thank you.
[00:19:52 - 00:20:00]	 [music]