[00:00:00 - 00:00:04] - Here Dennis McKenna, that's gotta bring back some memories for you I suppose, huh? [00:00:04 - 00:00:05] - Absolutely. [00:00:05 - 00:00:11] - You were there and just about at that time, you know, socially, do you think doctor that [00:00:11 - 00:00:15] it was the right direction at the wrong time? [00:00:15 - 00:00:16] - How do you mean? [00:00:16 - 00:00:22] - Well I mean the whole 60s thing, the whole San Francisco scene, the whole national scene [00:00:22 - 00:00:32] frankly, it was moving toward a gentler, more aware social time for the young people but [00:00:32 - 00:00:37] then sort of the war got in the way and then we started the war on drugs and war and war [00:00:37 - 00:00:42] and war but for a while there we were headed in a bit of a different direction weren't [00:00:42 - 00:00:43] we? [00:00:43 - 00:00:47] - Well we were headed in a bit of a different direction and yes I think that the war in [00:00:47 - 00:00:58] Vietnam had a lot to do with derailing it but I think that also just sort of the disillusion [00:00:58 - 00:01:04] that happened in the American dream that probably started with the assassination of Kennedy [00:01:04 - 00:01:12] if not before, I mean I think that really impacted a lot of people in my generation. [00:01:12 - 00:01:19] You know I can remember when that happened and both Terrence and myself, we were just [00:01:19 - 00:01:23] in a state of shock for days after that happened. [00:01:23 - 00:01:28] There was little you could do except just stare at the television. [00:01:28 - 00:01:35] You know a lot of people of our generation thought that Kennedy was the sign of some [00:01:35 - 00:01:43] needed change and when he was struck down I think it was kind of a message that no, [00:01:43 - 00:01:46] nothing is really going to change. [00:01:46 - 00:01:53] I mean however flawed he may have been as a man I think he symbolized a change for a [00:01:53 - 00:02:02] lot of people and I think when that went away I think it began the process of deepening [00:02:02 - 00:02:06] cynicism that has continued. [00:02:06 - 00:02:10] And then we sort of moved toward as the decades went by it seems like we moved from where [00:02:10 - 00:02:16] we were in the 60s and where we were headed to a more materialistic society and we kind [00:02:16 - 00:02:21] of replaced what went on with the 60s with materialism. [00:02:21 - 00:02:28] Anyway listen I want to ask you a question that's a sensitive question about Terrence [00:02:28 - 00:02:32] and it was actually a question that I asked Terrence and I guess I would like to ask you. [00:02:32 - 00:02:38] Very many people said brain tumor. [00:02:38 - 00:02:43] Why should we not believe that it's possible that some of the substances and chemicals [00:02:43 - 00:02:50] and things that Terrence did contributed to that, may have been a main contributor to [00:02:50 - 00:02:51] that brain tumor. [00:02:51 - 00:02:54] I'm sure you've thought about it. [00:02:54 - 00:03:01] Well I have thought about it and the answer is that there's simply no evidence for it. [00:03:01 - 00:03:08] If psychedelics or cannabis caused brain tumors there would be a lot more that kind of thing [00:03:08 - 00:03:09] than there are. [00:03:09 - 00:03:16] Brain tumors, particularly the kind that he had, is actually an extremely rare form of [00:03:16 - 00:03:17] cancer. [00:03:17 - 00:03:24] Only 20,000 cases a year supposedly are reported in this country although I personally think [00:03:24 - 00:03:25] it must be more than that. [00:03:25 - 00:03:35] But as cancers go this one is rare and there's simply no evidence, there's no correlation [00:03:35 - 00:03:39] between your intake of marijuana say and brain tumors. [00:03:39 - 00:03:46] In fact there is research that has been done that shows that cannabis, tetrahydrocannabinol [00:03:46 - 00:03:49] may inhibit brain tumors. [00:03:49 - 00:04:00] Obviously for my brother this didn't work but you can say that but it's not really a [00:04:00 - 00:04:03] fair criticism. [00:04:03 - 00:04:08] Another person who maybe never touches any of these things may get a brain tumor and [00:04:08 - 00:04:16] you may say well it's because they led a bad life or something. [00:04:16 - 00:04:18] It just doesn't hold up. [00:04:18 - 00:04:23] Just before going to the phone lines here, Scott in Sonora, California asks a question [00:04:23 - 00:04:26] that may not even be relevant or you may know what he's talking about but he says please [00:04:26 - 00:04:34] ask Dr. McKenna if he remembers what he was experiencing when he said that quote "he didn't [00:04:34 - 00:04:39] want to be a giant insect" end quote at the experiment at La Carreira. [00:04:39 - 00:04:40] La Carreira. [00:04:40 - 00:04:41] La Carreira, okay. [00:04:41 - 00:04:42] Right, right. [00:04:42 - 00:04:44] So it rings a bell, huh? [00:04:44 - 00:04:45] Yeah, absolutely. [00:04:45 - 00:04:50] So you didn't want to be a giant insect, what was that all about? [00:04:50 - 00:04:56] Well it's hard to explain that without sort of going into the whole narrative of what [00:04:56 - 00:05:01] got us to go to La Carreira at the first place which we started talking about at the top [00:05:01 - 00:05:06] of the program but then we sort of got derailed into other subjects. [00:05:06 - 00:05:14] But I guess to put it in a nutshell, a lot of the ideas and concerns that we were sort [00:05:14 - 00:05:22] of processing at La Carreira in these hyper psychedelic states had to do with the notion [00:05:22 - 00:05:30] of insect metamorphosis and you know insects undergo several stages of metamorphosis like [00:05:30 - 00:05:35] a butterfly, a caterpillar turning into a butterfly is the classic example. [00:05:35 - 00:05:42] And we had some notions whether correct or not, at least we thought at the time they [00:05:42 - 00:05:50] seemed correct, that the tryptamines and the beta carbolines in this plant environment [00:05:50 - 00:05:55] had to do with the kind of an actual metamorphosis in humans. [00:05:55 - 00:05:56] I see. [00:05:56 - 00:06:00] And that you know, and that was what the basis of that was about. [00:06:00 - 00:06:04] I wasn't so sure I wanted to undergo this metamorphosis. [00:06:04 - 00:06:05] I see. [00:06:05 - 00:06:07] And I was convinced that I was about to. [00:06:07 - 00:06:10] I bet you saw the fly, didn't you? [00:06:10 - 00:06:12] Actually I've never seen it. [00:06:12 - 00:06:13] Oh you haven't seen the fly. [00:06:13 - 00:06:14] I haven't seen it. [00:06:14 - 00:06:15] It's just as well actually. [00:06:15 - 00:06:17] I should put it on my list. [00:06:17 - 00:06:24] Obviously you're not exactly an anti-drug poster child and nor was your brother. [00:06:24 - 00:06:26] Your brother was a brilliant, brilliant man. [00:06:26 - 00:06:28] You're a brilliant, brilliant man. [00:06:28 - 00:06:33] And a lot of people who are fighting this drug war I don't think like hearing you speak [00:06:33 - 00:06:40] because you're obviously brilliant and somehow you know the brain cells have stayed in the [00:06:40 - 00:06:45] in place throughout whatever it is you have done as was the case with Terrence. [00:06:45 - 00:06:48] So far. [00:06:48 - 00:06:51] First time caller line you're on the air with Dr. Dennis McKenna. [00:06:51 - 00:06:52] Hi. [00:06:52 - 00:06:53] Hi Art. [00:06:53 - 00:07:01] I'm Laura and I'm a PhD candidate in a Washington DC area university and I'm doing the first [00:07:01 - 00:07:06] ethnographic life history narrative based research study with near-death experiencers. [00:07:06 - 00:07:07] Oh. [00:07:07 - 00:07:11] So I'm getting some very interesting findings which I'd like to talk to you about more at [00:07:11 - 00:07:12] some other time. [00:07:12 - 00:07:16] Now you guys kept talking while I was making after I made the notes I wanted to make because [00:07:16 - 00:07:22] I had a chance to spend some time with Terrence and Poincare and I had a couple comments that [00:07:22 - 00:07:28] I wanted from Dennis but a question you just raised about the brain tumor and the drug [00:07:28 - 00:07:29] use. [00:07:29 - 00:07:30] Yes. [00:07:30 - 00:07:35] Raised the issue for me of remember the Miami guy who had the strange heart attack and the [00:07:35 - 00:07:39] bizarre little sort of twist in his vein or artery. [00:07:39 - 00:07:40] Oh yes. [00:07:40 - 00:07:44] And the Native Americans who pointed out that you know from where their point of view that's [00:07:44 - 00:07:45] called an energy attack. [00:07:45 - 00:07:50] Just I'm not to sound too paranoid I just wanted to throw that in as another question [00:07:50 - 00:07:52] that might be asked. [00:07:52 - 00:07:59] And in the I have a wonderful quote from Terrence about an experience of Dennis's that your insect [00:07:59 - 00:08:03] thing made me want to read but let me hold off maybe we don't have time. [00:08:03 - 00:08:07] But I'm loving hearing from Dennis and I love spending time with Terrence read all their [00:08:07 - 00:08:13] work I think the research that they have done and the personal accounts that they have shared [00:08:13 - 00:08:18] are not simply valuable but extremely brave to stand out on the edge they're standing [00:08:18 - 00:08:21] out on and there's tremendous resistance. [00:08:21 - 00:08:25] As Terrence said culture is not your friend in certain kind of. [00:08:25 - 00:08:27] I would agree with that. [00:08:27 - 00:08:31] And I wanted to raise this the reason I was there if I got a scholarship that year that [00:08:31 - 00:08:36] fellow from Texas gave some scholarships and I got to go to Palenque and spend this 10 [00:08:36 - 00:08:41] days having this wonderful ethnobotanical field seminar with an incredible group of [00:08:41 - 00:08:47] people including the Shoguns and Terrence and because I realized that there were analogs [00:08:47 - 00:08:52] between near-death experience narratives and I'm a near-death experiencer as was my mother [00:08:52 - 00:08:54] which you know fueled my interest. [00:08:54 - 00:08:58] Well you obviously heard the comments earlier with respect to DMT. [00:08:58 - 00:08:59] Well no. [00:08:59 - 00:09:00] Oh you didn't? [00:09:00 - 00:09:01] No. [00:09:01 - 00:09:05] I had some very related experiences related to ayahuasca with now a lot is in the research [00:09:05 - 00:09:10] near-death research about ketamine which I know the least about but I went there because [00:09:10 - 00:09:14] that woman who was involved in the Boger research, Iba Gain. [00:09:14 - 00:09:15] Deborah Nash. [00:09:15 - 00:09:16] Dr. Deborah Nash. [00:09:16 - 00:09:22] Dr. Deborah Nash was going to be there and there is this analog between NDEs and that [00:09:22 - 00:09:26] experience in the life review that's very very obvious. [00:09:26 - 00:09:31] I also wanted to say you hadn't mentioned scampastora nor I think ketamine and I'd like [00:09:31 - 00:09:32] to hear what you have to say about them. [00:09:32 - 00:09:38] The other thing I found that was bizarre that didn't come up in clinical NDE model shaped [00:09:38 - 00:09:43] research, this is work I'm continuing now that I did two years work of field research [00:09:43 - 00:09:50] on for my MA, now it's continuing as my just approved dissertation work, is that there [00:09:50 - 00:09:57] was this major inexplicably high incidence of narratives where it was clear there was [00:09:57 - 00:10:04] sort of overlap between, you could take a batch of these, change a few characteristics, [00:10:04 - 00:10:09] hand them to alien encounter researchers like John Mack or near-death experience researchers [00:10:09 - 00:10:17] and each of those groups would go near-death experience or alien encounter and because [00:10:17 - 00:10:21] so many of my, it came up with so many of my informants and the only other research [00:10:21 - 00:10:28] that's come up in that high incidence is PMA Chatwater who like me her methodology involves [00:10:28 - 00:10:35] more person centered informant generated narrative so you get data you wouldn't get. [00:10:35 - 00:10:42] I would never have thought to mention a strange experience that I had one connected maybe [00:10:42 - 00:10:47] with the one that Dennis and Terrence had in True Hallucinations which I love to hear [00:10:47 - 00:10:48] him talk about. [00:10:48 - 00:10:50] All right, listen we're way short on time. [00:10:50 - 00:10:55] Yeah, so I'd like to know what does he make of this overlap and the fact that we're trying [00:10:55 - 00:11:01] to model experiences we may not know as much about as we think. [00:11:01 - 00:11:02] Think we know, okay. [00:11:02 - 00:11:05] Well a lot of things have been touched on. [00:11:05 - 00:11:14] I think that this notion, I mean this business of the aliens and encounters with the aliens [00:11:14 - 00:11:23] in abduction experiences, the near-death experiences and also in psychedelics. [00:11:23 - 00:11:24] What do I make of it? [00:11:24 - 00:11:29] I'm not sure what to make of it. [00:11:29 - 00:11:37] On one hand, the rational reductionist part of me says it's got to be part of the self. [00:11:37 - 00:11:44] Certainly with psychedelics you would think no matter how other it seems to be ultimately [00:11:44 - 00:11:47] these things are coming from some part of the self. [00:11:47 - 00:11:51] It may not be a part that you know very much. [00:11:51 - 00:11:55] That's the reductionist model. [00:11:55 - 00:11:58] It's possible to look at it another way. [00:11:58 - 00:12:05] Maybe there are other dimensions and what we mean by other dimensions I'm not sure. [00:12:05 - 00:12:09] Maybe some other level of theory vibration. [00:12:09 - 00:12:10] Who knows? [00:12:10 - 00:12:19] I mean more familiar, other people on your program know more about this than I do. [00:12:19 - 00:12:25] I just feel like all bets are off in a sense that particularly when we're trying to understand [00:12:25 - 00:12:31] the mind and what the capabilities of the mind are and how it interfaces with reality, we [00:12:31 - 00:12:35] can't really make any assumptions. [00:12:35 - 00:12:40] Well our nation's best physicists are talking about multiple dimensions. [00:12:40 - 00:12:41] Well exactly. [00:12:41 - 00:12:48] Who is to say that there is not a path and a door opened. [00:12:48 - 00:12:50] Comment briefly if you would on ketamine. [00:12:50 - 00:12:55] Ketamine is being called the NDE drug. [00:12:55 - 00:12:59] Well my own experience with ketamine is extremely limited. [00:12:59 - 00:13:11] I've only taken it one time in my life and I didn't find it, it wasn't pleasant for me. [00:13:11 - 00:13:12] It was interesting. [00:13:12 - 00:13:21] It was sort of like an anti-psychedelic to me in the sense that it seemed to be a state [00:13:21 - 00:13:29] of sensory deprivation and complete isolation from the body. [00:13:29 - 00:13:35] Sort of like how in states of sensory deprivation you start to confabulate, you start to feel [00:13:35 - 00:13:38] that empty space, thoughts. [00:13:38 - 00:13:42] And ketamine was like that for me. [00:13:42 - 00:13:45] Beyond that I don't know. [00:13:45 - 00:13:50] It may be the NDE drug, I'm not sure. [00:13:50 - 00:13:57] My own candidate for that would be something like 5-methoxy DMT which is actually an order [00:13:57 - 00:14:03] of magnitude more potent than DMT in terms of what the dose is. [00:14:03 - 00:14:11] But its effects are somewhat similar although it doesn't have a marked visual effect. [00:14:11 - 00:14:20] You don't see colored hallucinations as so much on 5-methoxy DMT but yet it's just as [00:14:20 - 00:14:27] profound and it seems to be, at least again my experience is somewhat limited with this, [00:14:27 - 00:14:34] but the few times I have encountered it you do seem to go to a place which seems close [00:14:34 - 00:14:38] to what they describe as this near death experience. [00:14:38 - 00:14:39] That's amazing. [00:14:39 - 00:14:40] All right. [00:14:40 - 00:14:42] Wildcard Line, you're on the air with Dr. Dennis McKenna. [00:14:42 - 00:14:43] Good morning. [00:14:43 - 00:14:44] Good morning Art. [00:14:44 - 00:14:45] Good morning Dennis. [00:14:45 - 00:14:46] Good morning. [00:14:46 - 00:14:47] God, I'm having a flashback. [00:14:47 - 00:14:48] I bet. [00:14:48 - 00:14:57] I was a runaway flower child in 1964, became an electric acid test flower child. [00:14:57 - 00:14:58] Came QC style. [00:14:58 - 00:15:06] Wound up in 1967 living on a hippie houseboat in the three boats down from Allen Watts. [00:15:06 - 00:15:11] Everybody I knew who used psychedelic drugs were very brilliant, very intelligent, very [00:15:11 - 00:15:14] creative people. [00:15:14 - 00:15:22] Over the years, in those days I was a teenager in my early 20s, I used lots and lots of psychedelics [00:15:22 - 00:15:30] of all kinds, oxy acid, psilocybin mushrooms, mescaline, peyote buttons, DMT and DET, which [00:15:30 - 00:15:33] I'm sure, Dennis, you know what DET is. [00:15:33 - 00:15:35] Diathlete tryptamine. [00:15:35 - 00:15:36] Yeah. [00:15:36 - 00:15:41] Well, the point I'm trying to make is I have gone on, I've gone to college, I have built [00:15:41 - 00:15:42] a business. [00:15:42 - 00:15:44] I'm a very successful person. [00:15:44 - 00:15:47] I don't have brain tumors and I'm sorry about your brother. [00:15:47 - 00:15:49] Thank you. [00:15:49 - 00:15:56] The reality of the situation is most other people that I know who also during those days [00:15:56 - 00:16:02] had been similarly involved in those sorts of things went on to be very successful in [00:16:02 - 00:16:04] their careers. [00:16:04 - 00:16:08] The percentage of casualties I think is very, very small. [00:16:08 - 00:16:11] I think there's greater casualties from the later drug. [00:16:11 - 00:16:17] See, there's an early drug wave and then the next one was the cocaine, heroin, speed, methamphetamine [00:16:17 - 00:16:18] wave. [00:16:18 - 00:16:20] The materialism wave, by the way. [00:16:20 - 00:16:22] Well, exactly, Art. [00:16:22 - 00:16:23] That's right. [00:16:23 - 00:16:24] That's precisely it. [00:16:24 - 00:16:26] The first wave was the consciousness wave. [00:16:26 - 00:16:30] Most people were discussing when they were tripping or smoking pot, were talking about [00:16:30 - 00:16:36] things like books by Velikovsky, World in Collision, Earth in Upheaval, things like [00:16:36 - 00:16:38] that. [00:16:38 - 00:16:43] The Urantia book, Metaphysics, the early days of health food, health consciousness, earth [00:16:43 - 00:16:50] consciousness, it's got a bad rap. [00:16:50 - 00:16:56] I think that the war on drugs has turned into a very politicized power trip that the establishment [00:16:56 - 00:16:58] uses to control people. [00:16:58 - 00:17:00] It's convenient for them. [00:17:00 - 00:17:05] It gives excuses to have larger police forces and larger military and bigger prisons and [00:17:05 - 00:17:11] to spend the public money in ways that none of us really want to see happen. [00:17:11 - 00:17:14] Well, have either one of you considered the fact that what do we care about? [00:17:14 - 00:17:16] What reports do we get? [00:17:16 - 00:17:23] We get reports on new housing starts, on national productivity, on all of these things that [00:17:23 - 00:17:28] relate to how productive people are in turning out material things. [00:17:28 - 00:17:34] I think some of these drugs are considered to be anti-productivity. [00:17:34 - 00:17:37] I bet that's at the core of a lot of this war. [00:17:37 - 00:17:38] That's just me. [00:17:38 - 00:17:42] Well, I think you're right because they saw that too many of the hippy types were going [00:17:42 - 00:17:49] to the nature, wanting to become Native Americans and were renouncing the civilization, living [00:17:49 - 00:17:50] in teepees. [00:17:50 - 00:17:52] I did that for a while when I was young. [00:17:52 - 00:17:56] Went off into Big Sur and lived in a tree house. [00:17:56 - 00:17:57] Exactly. [00:17:57 - 00:17:58] Exactly. [00:17:58 - 00:18:01] When you could have been in a factory doing something or another. [00:18:01 - 00:18:02] Doctor? [00:18:02 - 00:18:04] Turning out useful widgets, right? [00:18:04 - 00:18:05] Absolutely. [00:18:05 - 00:18:06] Yes. [00:18:06 - 00:18:09] Well, that makes a couple of interesting points that I'd like to comment on. [00:18:09 - 00:18:17] One is this notion that the wider cultural perception is that if you use psychedelics, [00:18:17 - 00:18:23] you have to be somehow drooling in the corner or somehow dysfunctional. [00:18:23 - 00:18:29] And most people, in fact, who have ... in which these things have played a role are [00:18:29 - 00:18:31] anything but dysfunctional. [00:18:31 - 00:18:37] They are generally high functioning, creative people often on the cutting edge of whatever [00:18:37 - 00:18:39] their field is. [00:18:39 - 00:18:48] The whole computer and net revolution, the Silicon Valley revolution was largely spearheaded [00:18:48 - 00:18:52] by people who were involved with psychedelics. [00:18:52 - 00:18:56] So there is that element. [00:18:56 - 00:19:02] It doesn't, again, in a very, very small number of cases, some people do run into problems. [00:19:02 - 00:19:03] Something went wrong, sure. [00:19:03 - 00:19:04] But most people do- [00:19:04 - 00:19:05] No, he was right. [00:19:05 - 00:19:09] In the great majority of cases, these people are now productive citizens. [00:19:09 - 00:19:10] All right. [00:19:10 - 00:19:11] We've got a break here. [00:19:11 - 00:19:12] We'll be right back. [00:19:12 - 00:19:13] Dr. Dennis McKenna is my guest. [00:19:13 - 00:19:17] I'm Art Bell, and this is Coast to Coast AM. [00:19:17 - 00:19:32] [music]