[00:00:00 - 00:00:02] Whom or all of which I'm not sure [00:00:02 - 00:00:07] Evolved in the shallow waters near [00:00:07 - 00:00:15] Coastlines when those environments became evolutionarily crowded the octopi evolved into the benthic depths [00:00:15 - 00:00:22] Into the parts of the ocean where no light ever reaches but in order to maintain lines of communication [00:00:22 - 00:00:26] Over long periods of time they evolved [00:00:26 - 00:00:32] Phosphorescent organs on their bodies and eyelid like membranes covering those [00:00:32 - 00:00:39] Phosphorescent organs so in the benthic depths of the sea all that one octopus ever [00:00:39 - 00:00:47] Encounters of another is its pure linguistic intent nothing else can be seen so I think that [00:00:47 - 00:00:54] The DMT elves I mean all I can figure is that they are trying to catalyze us [00:00:54 - 00:01:01] To move up the scale in the refining of the bandwidth of our communication skills. Yeah [00:01:01 - 00:01:13] You mean do I feel more able to do that yeah [00:01:13 - 00:01:19] You feel a journey closer with it otherwise just maybe an entertainment instead of an enlightenment if we aren't able to actually reach it [00:01:19 - 00:01:23] well, no, I mean they they [00:01:24 - 00:01:30] Urge one toward a kind of glossolalia a kind of ecstatic [00:01:30 - 00:01:34] verbal activity that is devoid of [00:01:34 - 00:01:39] attachment to the culturally contrived dictionary and [00:01:39 - 00:01:45] For a long time I could hear them do this I could hear this stuff this DMT [00:01:45 - 00:01:50] Gibberish flowing through my mind and then eventually I became able to do it [00:01:51 - 00:01:59] And it's immensely satisfying this relates back to what we discussed this morning about how [00:01:59 - 00:02:09] There's DMT in the human brain being produced for some reason you see we do tend to connect [00:02:09 - 00:02:16] successful linguistic activity with the visual cortex in other words if somebody [00:02:17 - 00:02:22] Successfully communicates something to you you say I see what you mean [00:02:22 - 00:02:27] Now it's clear to me. You've painted a picture [00:02:27 - 00:02:35] Why is it that when we want to say that language is succeeding we reach for visual metaphors? [00:02:35 - 00:02:44] It's because we trust our eyes. We don't trust our ears the world is defined for us as something seen and [00:02:45 - 00:02:47] the ambiguity of ordinary communication [00:02:47 - 00:02:53] Which is culturally defined and for each of us defined by basically? [00:02:53 - 00:02:57] Where on the surface of the planet you first saw the light of day? [00:02:57 - 00:03:02] You know the French speak French the Dutch speak Dutch [00:03:02 - 00:03:07] Why can't the English learn how to speak or know that's something else? [00:03:10 - 00:03:17] But if but what I'm talking about is an aura language that you don't learn from a culture [00:03:17 - 00:03:22] But that you learn in the same way that you know how to breathe you know how to eat you know how to grasp [00:03:22 - 00:03:28] It's in the organic structure rather than in the cultural [00:03:28 - 00:03:35] Software yeah, but is the communication is it with other can you communicate with others other human beings? [00:03:36 - 00:03:41] On this level well you can if you're both loaded on DMT, but [00:03:41 - 00:03:46] That's such a chaotic environment in which to sort this kind of stuff out [00:03:46 - 00:03:53] That's what drove me to the Amazon in the first place was the DMT flash is so maddeningly short [00:03:53 - 00:03:58] I mean you're trying to sort all this out and assure yourself [00:03:58 - 00:04:02] You're not dead as a doornail in about two and a half minutes [00:04:02 - 00:04:07] And I thought you know we need to slow it down and stretch it out [00:04:07 - 00:04:13] Why does it have to be like a Bugs Bunny cartoon run backwards at five times normal speed? [00:04:13 - 00:04:18] I mean you just cannot get a grasp on it and over the years [00:04:18 - 00:04:23] judicious manipulation of these substances and all kinds of special conditions [00:04:23 - 00:04:31] Eventually you see what it is and it's almost as though language is trying to be born out of matter [00:04:32 - 00:04:38] The pure energy thing of 50s science fiction may in fact be a fairly accurate [00:04:38 - 00:04:44] Take on where we're headed we are headed toward becoming pure syntactical [00:04:44 - 00:04:49] Intentionality just shedding the monkey shedding any [00:04:49 - 00:04:53] umbilical cord into matter matter is [00:04:53 - 00:05:00] Becoming a fairly uncomfortable dimension for us to be in and I dare say matter would probably be highly [00:05:00 - 00:05:02] Relieved to have us just move on [00:05:02 - 00:05:10] So that the rainforest chipmunks glaciers and schooling salmon could go back to doing what they do best [00:05:10 - 00:05:12] Nicole [00:05:12 - 00:05:15] I wanted to talk about the eggs [00:05:15 - 00:05:20] I have that stuff down there in the standing room and see what you think of it [00:05:20 - 00:05:30] So any psychedelic experiments that you could think of the whole of life being that one end is the [00:05:30 - 00:05:32] So called "Empathy" [00:05:32 - 00:05:34] The "A.B.G." [00:05:34 - 00:05:35] Beast [00:05:35 - 00:05:38] And then the other end is the "Souls" [00:05:38 - 00:05:41] The "Silent Tron" or whatever you call it [00:05:41 - 00:05:46] So in between you have all these vast layers [00:05:46 - 00:05:55] Talking with the unconscious, the subconscious, the archetypes, the vinyls [00:05:55 - 00:06:00] And there is also this thing that they have called the "Elementals" [00:06:00 - 00:06:01] The what? [00:06:01 - 00:06:02] Elementals [00:06:02 - 00:06:03] Elementals [00:06:03 - 00:06:05] Elementals got it [00:06:05 - 00:06:12] The elementals are the rocks, the water, the fire, the air [00:06:12 - 00:06:23] And in the ancient literature the different civilizations have spoken about those [00:06:23 - 00:06:34] And usually they always relate to them as having a spirit which manifests itself in the shapes of eggs and nymphs [00:06:34 - 00:06:43] And usually the elves and the little dwarfs are associated with elves, selves, selva, the forest, the mother, the earth [00:06:43 - 00:06:47] And the water usually has more feminine nymphs [00:06:47 - 00:06:54] And so I was thinking since you took the mushroom which is very much of a forest of an earth element [00:06:54 - 00:07:01] Maybe the mushroom opened the door to you for that elemental of the earth [00:07:01 - 00:07:03] Well this could be [00:07:03 - 00:07:10] I mean all I've ever seen of that other universe is an area smaller than this room [00:07:10 - 00:07:16] And yet I assume that other universe is probably equal in size to our own [00:07:16 - 00:07:21] So I'm not exactly Ferdinand Magellan where it's concerned [00:07:21 - 00:07:24] Well yeah but it's just a little glimpse at it [00:07:24 - 00:07:33] And there is other people have talked about it like for instance the tribal men, the shamans and not shamans [00:07:33 - 00:07:40] Had experiences where they did encounter beings that talked to them and give a message [00:07:40 - 00:07:47] Castaneda talked about it, Lin Andrews talked about the little nymphs of the water [00:07:47 - 00:07:55] And other Indians have basically even through their oral tradition kind of passed on that kind of a message that there are [00:07:55 - 00:08:02] The world has different layers of reality and they are all accessible and available if one is [00:08:02 - 00:08:11] If the boundaries can be broken enough so that our flow of energy can really access these other layers [00:08:11 - 00:08:22] Yeah I think our materialism has focused us so entirely away from these more rarified layers [00:08:22 - 00:08:28] That we cannot see them at all, that we in fact deny their existence [00:08:28 - 00:08:35] You know in a way what science as practiced over the past 500 years has come down to [00:08:35 - 00:08:45] Is it has been a relentless despiritualizing of the world until finally you know they tell you there is no soul [00:08:45 - 00:08:51] There are no spirits, what you see is what you get, we have risen to the surface [00:08:51 - 00:09:01] Well a shaman looking at a person with that kind of a mental map of things just pities them their simplistic stupidity [00:09:01 - 00:09:10] And says you know my god you are like a half-wit or something because everything interesting and complex you say doesn't even exist [00:09:10 - 00:09:20] I agree but that doesn't mean that because we as a culture are now at a point where we do need to go back to these forgotten lands [00:09:20 - 00:09:28] We need that feminine energy or that sense of sacredness of life and of all things and that sense of connectedness [00:09:28 - 00:09:34] With the whole of the universe, well that's no reason to put down what we have learned [00:09:34 - 00:09:42] Because I think every culture, every civilization kind of drill in one direction for knowledge [00:09:42 - 00:09:51] And the Far East for instance with all of their meditation and all of their time spent in caves and no eating [00:09:51 - 00:09:58] And this kind of ordeal that they go through that puts them facing death even though they don't take psychedelics [00:09:58 - 00:10:05] They get through that same experience with the kind of excruciating pain and whatever they invent to get there [00:10:05 - 00:10:14] Well they've drilled into that realm of the unconscious towards the source, towards the no being, the no self [00:10:14 - 00:10:22] And they've done wonderful discoveries in that area but then in order for them to go so far in that direction [00:10:22 - 00:10:27] They had to say forget the world this is all an illusion I'm not interested with [00:10:27 - 00:10:35] Well we took the other side of the coin, we said forget religion, forget philosophy, forget even love and emotion [00:10:35 - 00:10:42] Who wants to deal with it? I want a microscope and I want to look at atoms, I want to look at viruses [00:10:42 - 00:10:48] And look what we've discovered that way, I mean that's not to be all thrown into the water you know [00:10:48 - 00:10:49] No I agree [00:10:49 - 00:10:53] There is a big danger for the baby with the backwater [00:10:53 - 00:11:00] That's true but also eventually you get into a situation of diminishing returns [00:11:00 - 00:11:11] For instance you know it was a great step forward for von Leeuwenhoek to grind his lenses and to see little animals cavorting in a drop of water [00:11:11 - 00:11:24] But for instance now ordinary science is going to congress and saying in order to take another step deeper into the understanding of matter [00:11:24 - 00:11:34] We want 20 billion dollars to create an instrument 17 miles in diameter that will take 30 years to build [00:11:34 - 00:11:43] And that will allow us to at last confront the bottom quark or something like that [00:11:43 - 00:11:49] I heard these guys on NPR, probably some of you heard them being challenged, particle physicists [00:11:49 - 00:11:58] Being challenged by someone who said well you want America to commit I think it was 50 billion dollars to building the super collider [00:11:58 - 00:12:10] Is that can you name a single spin off from particle physics that has trickled down into the lives of ordinary people and they were absolutely stymied [00:12:10 - 00:12:21] Well I kind of go with Peter Russell's theory that you know perhaps from our technological culture we did get something [00:12:21 - 00:12:30] First of all none of us would be here if it was not for technology because today we have like close to 5 billion people on earth [00:12:30 - 00:12:36] That might be a curse but that also might be you know do you want to be the one who is not born [00:12:36 - 00:12:41] A tricky question [00:12:41 - 00:12:53] So in that fact of life explosion there is one thing that happened is that we do not have a conscious of ourself as one planet [00:12:53 - 00:13:05] As one whole being I mean even with the technology of going to the moon through the physicality we have a view of ourself from the outside [00:13:05 - 00:13:15] I mean to me I look at it like maybe in the evolution of humanity it's like being 7 years old all of a sudden you say but hey I am me [00:13:15 - 00:13:26] I am somebody and I can decide to say no or to say yes but it is something there there is an entity and as a planet maybe that's what we did when we went to the moon [00:13:26 - 00:13:36] And the Indians you know I go down to sweat lodge every week and I participate with the Indian community down in San Pedro so I am trying to learn a bit the way they think [00:13:36 - 00:13:43] And a lot of things I enjoy very much you know but then other things you know I don't agree totally [00:13:43 - 00:13:52] For instance with the moon thing you know they say well we have been to the moon many many times before and we go to the moon through the dream world [00:13:52 - 00:14:07] See like you went to the elves but a lot of people go to the stars I mean there is a lot of other realities out there and it's not the future and it's not the past it's just life it's part of that dense rich [00:14:07 - 00:14:22] But do you think that it's simply that there are a lot of realities for instance what puzzles me about these encounters with these elf things is the urgency from their side [00:14:22 - 00:14:37] You know I could imagine just breaking into an elf ecology and seeing them busy making shoes and you know putting the blush on strawberries or whatever elves do [00:14:37 - 00:14:53] And then seeing intently focused on a project that has consequences in this world and that puzzles me I don't think history has been a waste of time I think probably it's served its purpose [00:14:53 - 00:15:14] What we now have to do is take what we've learned it's the prodigal son I mentioned that and now return to the archaic family with the ability to move to the moon and to etch microcircuitry and to define the protein coats of viruses and these fancy things that we can do [00:15:14 - 00:15:33] All that is good knowledge but it has to be linked to a coherency of self that we somehow have gotten so strung out on this scientific descriptive binge that we forgot why we're doing it and what this is all for [00:15:33 - 00:15:49] The only thing I would say is that for people to hear us into this kind of rationality I think it's good diplomacy not to put down the culture not to discard it [00:15:49 - 00:16:08] I understand sometimes that you just discard it as a neurotic error of humanity or something I think there is acknowledging what it has done acknowledging it as a step and saying there are good things that came out of it [00:16:08 - 00:16:28] But now we are reaching a kind of a crisis level an apotheosis and now we are into a dark corridor where we have to make choice we may have to change direction we have to do something drastic because if not it's going to be a cataclysm for everybody [00:16:28 - 00:16:48] Well the basis of my criticism of science is not the science that it does which it does very well but the metaphysical pontificating that it claims to be able to do based on nothing more than its assumption that all competitors are naive [00:16:48 - 00:17:06] I mean science should not be telling us what we should think about astrology because astrology is not a proper object for scientific judgement in other words science is simply one method of understanding the world [00:17:06 - 00:17:25] But the people who practice science think it's a meta method think that it is somehow the arbiter of truth and that we are supposed to take any proposition and lay it at the feet of science and it will tell us whether it's kosher or not [00:17:25 - 00:17:41] And that means that the scientists are completely out of their domain and should be sent back to the workbench and the test tube and stay out of the domain of metaphysics and philosophy which is not properly their area [00:17:41 - 00:18:05] That's part of the change where we don't value strictly the material world we have to bring back the value to the sacred, the mystery, the whole other aspect of life and if as a culture we would change that so that everybody would have a more balanced view of the universe then the scientists would be automatically put back in their spot [00:18:05 - 00:18:07] Thank you [00:18:07 - 00:18:22] Everybody talks here like there is truth there may be no truth it may all be nonsense when you go on and listen to Jenny's journey I get the impression sometimes you feel you are bringing truth back how do you tell the difference between truth and nonsense [00:18:22 - 00:18:24] Or shit and shinola [00:18:24 - 00:18:30] It worries me that it's entertaining but I still don't feel there is necessarily any truth [00:18:30 - 00:18:45] Well I don't know if you were at the lecture last night but there was talk there about how one must not get clutchy about closure there is no closure there is no truth you are quite right [00:18:45 - 00:18:50] But I mean there isn't even a direction of truth it may just all be nonsense [00:18:50 - 00:18:53] Well if it's all nonsense then we are in a hell of a fix [00:18:53 - 00:18:55] Well that's where we may be [00:18:55 - 00:19:07] Wittgenstein had a slightly different notion that I think is more serviceable here he said what we want to do is we want to make statements that are true enough [00:19:07 - 00:19:20] Now there is a monkey concept that's what we want we want to say things which are true enough that means serviceable in the circumstance in which they are being applied [00:19:20 - 00:19:21] For survival and stuff [00:19:21 - 00:19:27] Yeah or whatever you know if you are solving tensor equations of the third degree then in that domain [00:19:27 - 00:19:36] But the idea you see it's so crazy to think that talking monkeys could get anywhere near truth [00:19:36 - 00:19:43] I mean do you think a sea urchin possesses the truth or a macaw well then why you [00:19:43 - 00:19:54] And especially when you realize you know we do all this business in English and we are utterly naive about the limitations of language [00:19:54 - 00:20:10] You can't even take someone like Derrida for instance whatever the man's truth is it can't even be exported into English without becoming gibberish because when you read him you can't understand him [00:20:10 - 00:20:14] However we also look at not only limitations of language but the potency of it [00:20:14 - 00:20:18] There is a reason to believe that consciousness itself is invented out of language [00:20:18 - 00:20:29] When we take Pharaoh and children out of the jungles that haven't had the adoption of abstraction into their lives it is almost impossible to bring them to humanness to being human [00:20:29 - 00:20:38] So language is maybe incredibly potent and as you suggest with these elves that you are talking about a medium of pure language [00:20:38 - 00:20:53] Pure language yes well language you know if you were to look at this planet and seek the thumbprint of a higher intelligence god or the goddess or whatever [00:20:53 - 00:21:03] Language is the thing to look at I mean this is the thing we do that is an incredible symmetry break with the rest of nature [00:21:03 - 00:21:16] Do you think a dog can tell the difference between those stairs and that floor or the rug and that or even the flowers and that he sees it as a continuum that simply is a texture like we look at this rug we don't identify that spot from the rest of it we just simply say it's a rug [00:21:16 - 00:21:36] Well an animal intelligence is suspended in the here and now we have language seems to be a strategy for binding time and notice that the entirety of evolutionary advance is a series of time binding strategies [00:21:36 - 00:22:01] Once you possess language and especially once you possess writing the past is not so past as it used to be it hangs around and we begin to create a database of experience larger than any community of living people could ever have and the past stays with us this is both a blessing and a curse [00:22:01 - 00:22:10] I noticed that we have industrial cultures as a result of the accumulation of written language that there's a simultaneous between written language and agriculture etc and industrial culture [00:22:10 - 00:22:28] Oh yeah I don't have any problem with that you know somebody said language was created to lie yes but it does it so elegantly and so well that the half truths it tells are all that we can communicate the truth cannot be said [00:22:28 - 00:22:51] It may even be possible to chart the evolution of a single individual from you know from an infant all the way through his maturity as one who takes the journey from the right side of his brain into the left side of his brain crossing a certain membrane there where he switches his dominance from right to left and then going full circle and then once again becoming quote unquote spiritual by adopting and integrating the right once again [00:22:51 - 00:23:18] Well yeah these are all metaphors and analogies for a process which is essentially incomprehensible there is no reason to expect reality to be rationally apprehendable this is the basic fallacy that we so confidently assume the world is for us that we assume that we should also therefore be able to understand it [00:23:18 - 00:23:34] When in fact what we've done is just carved out a very limited domain of repetitious algorithms that don't have fatal consequences for us and then the rest of it lies in the realm of the great who knows [00:23:34 - 00:23:59] But you know since there's very little percentage to be made out of that people prefer to keep their faces turned inward toward the campfire not outward toward the immense darkness revealed by the campfire and the bigger you build the campfire of metaphor the more darkness you reveal outside of its domain [00:23:59 - 00:24:10] So if ever there was an argument for open endedness and a and a defocusing on closure it would be the linguistic enterprise I think [00:24:10 - 00:24:27] Well we could just this one we could it may you know language may be the carrier or the virus that in fact causes consciousness there may not be any consciousness without the disinfection of language [00:24:27 - 00:24:47] Yeah well I don't have any trouble with that I mean William Burroughs said language is a virus from outer space and well it may be it does have you know it self replicates itself it spreads through a population ideas mutate they compete with each other [00:24:47 - 00:25:10] Ideas become extinct new ideological forms that are more adaptable squeeze out other forms I mean the whole evolution of organic life may be simply a lower dimensional rehearsal for a kind of syntactical evolution that is going to go on in a domain that we can barely conceive of [00:25:10 - 00:25:12] Yeah over [00:25:12 - 00:25:28] Yeah for myself I'm not so concerned with what the truth is but what in fact works in one's life and how one uses the word or uses the ideas to manifest in the reality that we're swimming through [00:25:28 - 00:25:50] Well I think that in light of that I'm just wondering about the mushroom more of a genetic field the plant community in terms of allies that one can become connected but as a as a as a collective community that we're all participating in elaborate on that [00:25:50 - 00:26:15] Well I've talked with Rupert a lot about this and sort of different things can be said I mean one way of thinking about what the psychedelic experiences is that psychoactive compounds amplify the morphogenetic field to the point where it becomes a potential object for inspection [00:26:15 - 00:26:33] By the conscious mind in the same way that we know right now that this room is filled with radio VHF UHF signals, but we also know that we would have to have a radio or a television set in order to tap into them. [00:26:33 - 00:26:55] So the morphogenetic field is ordinarily damped by experience, but becomes overwhelmingly present when we jack our neural neuro physiological receptors up to the point where these previously invisible influences become visible. [00:26:55 - 00:27:06] The other thing in terms of the morphogenetic field theory and how it relates to psychedelics is to realize that when you take a plant. [00:27:06 - 00:27:28] takes you. And so for instance, the one of the reasons I prefer shamanic hallucinogens to synthetics is that they are so much richer as databases, because they have inside them, all the people who've ever taken them. [00:27:28 - 00:27:40] I mean, when you take psilocybin, you leave something behind in there that every other every subsequent user of psilocybin will encounter. [00:27:40 - 00:27:47] So you know the way Tibetans leave little cans of rock when they cross high mountain passes. [00:27:47 - 00:28:05] Well, this is what we're doing in the psychedelic experience. And really, the character of psilocybin is the cumulative super imposition of the character of the thousands and thousands of people over the millennia that have taken it plus something else. [00:28:05 - 00:28:27] Its own unique nature. When you when you take a drug which induces an altered state like ketamine, for instance, ketamine is a drug that has not been around very long, hasn't been taken by millions of people and is oddly empty. [00:28:27 - 00:28:40] It's the building is there, the architecture is there. But where are the hurrying secretaries, the water coolers, the executives, the buzzing elevator? Nothing. [00:28:40 - 00:28:47] You know, it's empty real estate. It's for rent. And if you want to move in, well, then you can live there. [00:28:47 - 00:29:02] But it's the difference between a modern office building and a 14th century Italian villa when you contrast a modern synthetic with a well used shamanic organic. [00:29:02 - 00:29:09] Yes. Yes. So many different questions. You sit here and try to. [00:29:09 - 00:29:13] It's in order to be a moving target. [00:29:13 - 00:29:22] That's the idea. I'd like to relate the experience. Well, first of all, I'd like to kind of get some input from if anybody else has anything to say on this matter. [00:29:22 - 00:29:27] A lot of times when I first take like five grams or something, I get this. This is kind of a simple thing, but it's a yawn. [00:29:27 - 00:29:31] I'm wondering if does anybody else get that yawn? [00:29:31 - 00:29:43] No, the yawn is a physiological response to psilocybin that is it's part of it. And so is the runny nose in the first hour. [00:29:43 - 00:29:51] This is, you know, every drug has a spectrum of effects and some are dependable and some are not. [00:29:51 - 00:30:02] I mean, for instance, LSD almost you could almost say 100 percent of the people who take LSD. It dilates your eyes. [00:30:02 - 00:30:07] That is an effect of LSD that it would be impossible to eliminate. [00:30:07 - 00:30:14] But I wouldn't say 100 percent of the people who take LSD encounter the good Lord or something like that. [00:30:14 - 00:30:17] That's a more selective effect. [00:30:17 - 00:30:26] Okay, the second part is after I take five grams and after I get the buzzing sounds in my ears and then this last time I took it, [00:30:26 - 00:30:31] was in a darkened room, laid on the bed, got naked and just laid there. [00:30:31 - 00:30:39] And for the first time what happened, usually I close my eyes and I'm able to get visions, kind of a passing vision, almost like a film going through my head. [00:30:39 - 00:30:47] I'm wondering also, does anybody get it where it's coming from the right to the left or from the left to the right, sort of a film coming across? [00:30:47 - 00:30:49] Back to the front. [00:30:49 - 00:30:51] Ah. [00:30:51 - 00:30:53] Parasitology. [00:30:53 - 00:31:02] Well, I think that the number of ways these things can present themselves is practically infinite. [00:31:02 - 00:31:07] I mean, I've seen I've had really weird experiences with information. [00:31:07 - 00:31:13] For instance, you know, these flashers on buildings where the news goes by. [00:31:13 - 00:31:19] I've had hallucinations where it became a textual hallucination. [00:31:19 - 00:31:24] In other words, what I was seeing was an illuminated page of print. [00:31:24 - 00:31:36] And then as I looked at it, every 50th letter would invert and then suddenly every 20th and then every 10th and then every fifth. [00:31:36 - 00:31:46] And I literally watch a page of text go from being readable to being gibberish and then watch the meaning come through again in a loop. [00:31:46 - 00:31:50] I mean, I think anything you can conceive of, it can do. [00:31:50 - 00:31:53] And many things you can't conceive of. [00:31:53 - 00:31:56] It's the duty of individual perception. [00:31:56 - 00:31:57] I mean, we're all individuals. [00:31:57 - 00:32:01] We all have the gift of bringing our own ideas. [00:32:01 - 00:32:07] But still, you have to be able to make general statements about it or you would have to say that it's all and everything. [00:32:07 - 00:32:10] One of the one of the same would be boring. [00:32:10 - 00:32:15] Well, although how would you know since you would never have any trip but your own. [00:32:15 - 00:32:28] One of the things that happens on psilocybin and on ayahuasca that really puzzles me that I just go back to again and again is you can be having these volleys of hallucination. [00:32:28 - 00:32:46] And then you can say to it, Art Deco and click and suddenly there will be thousands of cigarette lighters, limousines, candy dishes, stuff rolling in black space in front of you. [00:32:46 - 00:32:55] Thousands of these things perfectly exemplifying this very narrowly defined aesthetic domain. [00:32:55 - 00:33:04] Italian Baroque click, altarpieces, saints with their eyes rolled back, dripping gold, the whole thing. [00:33:04 - 00:33:06] And so you say, boy, that is really strange. [00:33:06 - 00:33:12] We click through aesthetic epochs like points on a dial. [00:33:12 - 00:33:16] But then you can say to it, surprise me. [00:33:16 - 00:33:26] And Baroque not on peer, not dynastic Egypt, not North American Indian Maya or Fujiwara Japanese, but something never seen on this planet. [00:33:26 - 00:33:30] But equally coherent as those other styles. [00:33:30 - 00:33:40] And I always think, you know, my God, if I could just grab hold of this, I would be Yves Saint Laurent or Clint or somebody like that. [00:33:40 - 00:33:50] And and and then, you know, the most puzzling one of all is you can say to the mushroom, OK, enough of surprises. [00:33:50 - 00:33:57] Art Deco, Italian Baroque, show me what you are for yourself. [00:33:57 - 00:34:04] And then it's almost like, you know, there's a roll of drums and black curtains begin to rise. [00:34:04 - 00:34:24] And and there's a cold air that sweeps through the room and you realize, you know, OK, after about 45 seconds of that, you have to call a halt because you say you realize, you know, this thing was had clothed itself in so many levels of visual reassurance for you as a human being. [00:34:24 - 00:34:33] That the request that it reveal its true nature sets off a cascade headed in a truly appalling direction. [00:34:33 - 00:34:36] And usually you say, OK, that's enough of your true nature. [00:34:36 - 00:34:42] Let's go back to dancing chipmunks and little candies rolling in the dark. [00:34:42 - 00:34:58] Yeah, I do for the discrete thought in particular being locatable on the frequency spectrum of matter and energy, such that it can drive the input virtual reality so that you can communicate these kinds of experiences. [00:34:58 - 00:35:03] You mean a machine that could be driven by the imagination? [00:35:03 - 00:35:09] It's pretty it's well, it raises a bunch of questions. [00:35:09 - 00:35:13] I mean, the first question is where is thought generated? [00:35:13 - 00:35:19] The straight people believe that the brain makes thought makes it. [00:35:19 - 00:35:29] I think that the evidence is overwhelmingly against that, that that's as naive an approach to thought as I remember when I was little. [00:35:29 - 00:35:35] I once tore apart a radio looking for little people inside of it. [00:35:35 - 00:35:40] And, you know, there are no little people inside the radio. [00:35:40 - 00:35:51] The radio transduces vibrations that surround the planet and turns it into recognizable, recognizable experience. [00:35:51 - 00:35:55] I don't believe thought can be located in the brain. [00:35:55 - 00:36:01] I think the brain is an amplifier and an antenna for something that is everywhere. [00:36:01 - 00:36:06] But the phrase my thought is a complete misnomer. [00:36:06 - 00:36:08] You don't own thought. [00:36:08 - 00:36:10] You don't generate them. [00:36:10 - 00:36:17] All you do is tune into an ocean of thought in which we're embedded. [00:36:17 - 00:36:23] This is the morphogenetic field about which so much shouting and arm waving is going on. [00:36:23 - 00:36:37] To my mind, the proof of this position is the fact that the psychedelic experience unleashes visions in your head which you could not possibly have conceived of or imagined. [00:36:37 - 00:36:39] It doesn't come from you. [00:36:39 - 00:36:51] If we say that the content of the psychedelic experience comes from the self, then we have defined the self in such a way that it's unrecognizable to us. [00:36:51 - 00:36:57] And if your self is unrecognizable to you, then it isn't your self, you see. [00:36:57 - 00:37:07] So these things are proving that we participate in the world of mind, but that we don't generate it. [00:37:07 - 00:37:12] Done. [00:37:12 - 00:37:14] In that case, how come there isn't a common experience? [00:37:14 - 00:37:15] Why? [00:37:15 - 00:37:17] Why are we all tripping the same thing? [00:37:17 - 00:37:21] It's a universal thought. [00:37:21 - 00:37:27] Well, that's like saying when we swim in the ocean, why don't we all see the same fish? [00:37:27 - 00:37:30] Because the ocean is enormous. [00:37:30 - 00:37:35] Because we all enter it from different angles of attack. [00:37:35 - 00:37:37] But if we were swimming together, would we experience the same thing? [00:37:37 - 00:37:38] Yes, we would. [00:37:38 - 00:37:58] And on psilocybin, one of the most stunning experiences you can have if you wanted to make a believer out of you is to sit with somebody and describe what you're seeing and agree that after three minutes you'll shut up and they'll start up and you discover that you just hand the baton on. [00:37:58 - 00:38:00] They see what you see. [00:38:00 - 00:38:02] You see what they see. [00:38:02 - 00:38:04] This is confounding. [00:38:04 - 00:38:13] You see, if we could do legal research with this stuff, we could overturn the paradigms of normal science in a number of areas within 18 months. [00:38:13 - 00:38:14] I'm sure of it. [00:38:14 - 00:38:16] I've seen it happen. [00:38:16 - 00:38:25] I mean, I've seen states of group mindedness that were so specific that there was no possibility that what was not happening was no shit. [00:38:25 - 00:38:28] One on one real time telepathy. [00:38:28 - 00:38:32] Are there countries in the world, Amsterdam or? [00:38:32 - 00:38:39] Well, there are countries in the world where psychedelic research is tolerated is the only way to put it. [00:38:39 - 00:38:53] But it's in the hands of scientists and people of the imagination impaired are largely in charge of these research programs. [00:38:53 - 00:38:55] They're asking the wrong questions, you know. [00:38:55 - 00:38:58] I mean, if you get a well, that's enough. [00:38:58 - 00:38:59] They're asking the wrong question. [00:38:59 - 00:39:02] I wanted to share this with everybody else. [00:39:02 - 00:39:08] I don't know if anybody's familiar with the MAP, the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies. [00:39:08 - 00:39:10] They just released their new newsletter. [00:39:10 - 00:39:22] And what this newsletter says basically is that at a recent convened meeting with the FDA and a couple of days after that with the National Institute for Drug Abuse, [00:39:22 - 00:39:35] they've worked out an arrangement now where MDMA at least and they say in another article here that possibly LSD testing will be undertaken very seriously in the near future. [00:39:35 - 00:39:49] And this is going through MAPS and in conjunction working with the FDA to get certain types of permits for the more intensive research that should be done in this field. [00:39:49 - 00:40:00] There is, I think, the resistance to psychedelic research is beginning to weaken because an entire generation of people, [00:40:00 - 00:40:11] people who were, you know, three and four years old in the 1960s are now entering the medical research establishment as postdocs and so forth. [00:40:11 - 00:40:20] And there is no good reason to be given for not having a research program on psilocybin, for example. [00:40:20 - 00:40:22] I mean, it was never a social problem. [00:40:22 - 00:40:27] It is a valid object for scientific research. [00:40:27 - 00:40:33] It's amazing to me the gutlessness of the scientific establishment on this matter. [00:40:33 - 00:40:39] I mean, why, you know, we hear about the omnipotence of the AMA and so forth and so on. [00:40:39 - 00:40:50] Why has the scientific establishment laying down like a dog and let politicians set the research agenda for human research on psychedelics? [00:40:50 - 00:41:06] The last time this happened was in the 14th century when the pope and his cronies tried to make it impossible for people to dissect corpses because they didn't want people to understand human anatomy. [00:41:06 - 00:41:26] Well, in that situation, instead of swallowing it and putting up with it, medical students would steal bodies off the gallows and trail along behind armies to look at the freshly killed in order to create a compendious understanding of human anatomy. [00:41:26 - 00:41:51] And and they did in the 20th century science, which would have you believe that it's absolutely unbiased and it goes wherever curiosity seeks without prejudice or deference to anybody's social values or anything is, in fact, a sycophantic slave to the agenda of these frightened politicians. [00:41:51 - 00:42:09] So it's a real disgrace because, you know, I lived through the first psychedelic revolution and the news about LSD swept over the psychoanalytic community with the kind of force that the splitting of the atom swept over the physics community. [00:42:09 - 00:42:25] And people involved in treating mental illness and studying brain function and mapping the brain said, this is amazing. A tool has been put into our hands that will throw open doorways in the practice of psychology we couldn't dream of. [00:42:25 - 00:42:29] And instead, it was absolutely slammed shut. [00:42:29 - 00:42:47] Imagine if Galileo had smashed his telescope after there was a little bit of whining from the Vatican. Had that happened, you know, we would still be living in a universe defined by the Aristotelian stellar shells. [00:42:47 - 00:43:04] A little courage on the part of these almighty scientists would go a long way toward overwhelming the the fearful strictures placed on by politicians who are trying to maintain a social equilibrium that is fairly odious anyway. [00:43:04 - 00:43:05] Yeah. [00:43:05 - 00:43:18] I support one thing you said and also a question which I hope will be organized enough for you to answer your remarks about the telepathy. [00:43:18 - 00:43:34] After some extremely intense boundary dissolution experiences with my wife, we have gotten to the point where using straight Michael Harner shamanic journeying techniques, we routinely have each other's visions. [00:43:34 - 00:43:41] I think I'm wondering if if it isn't as much a matter of a learned response as anything else. [00:43:41 - 00:43:43] No, I think it is a learned response. [00:43:43 - 00:43:51] I think, you know, it requires psychedelics usually to plow the channel. [00:43:51 - 00:43:56] But once you open the groove, then there are ways to reinforce it. [00:43:56 - 00:44:14] And one of the underrated tools in this game is the power of acoustical driving and the power of sound to synergize subtle, subtle chemical reactions. [00:44:14 - 00:44:31] I mean, music is so compelling to us because it is essentially brain massage of some sort. And the pleasure we derive from music is at some level a chemical pleasure. [00:44:31 - 00:44:46] And I think, you know, trying to get to these places with yoga and drumming and fasting and all that is a pretty thankless task unless you clear the way with psychedelics and then you can really get somewhere. [00:44:46 - 00:45:06] If you use psychedelics in combination with any of these traditional techniques for working in these areas, suddenly these traditional techniques previously found to be maddeningly ineffective become very, very powerful tools. [00:45:06 - 00:45:18] So mantra with psychedelics works like magic yoga, breath control, drumming, visualization, simple prayer. [00:45:18 - 00:45:27] It all works amazingly well in the presence of psychedelics and in the absence of psychedelics entirely. [00:45:27 - 00:45:30] It's a pretty frustrating get go. [00:45:30 - 00:45:48] And unfortunately, these non psychedelic spiritual techniques are very quickly co-opted by the BDI priests among us who then peddle it back to us with a menu of moral do's and don'ts stapled to the front of it. [00:45:48 - 00:45:51] And that's entirely discouraging. [00:45:51 - 00:46:03] Yeah, my other question is kind of ties together some things you've mentioned during the course of the day. You mentioned way back when about no one else having the experiences that you have. [00:46:03 - 00:46:10] And so my question is to the whole issue of community and lifestyle. [00:46:10 - 00:46:21] The issue that I'm wrestling with right now, I think part of what I'm experiencing is my own drive for wholeness or insight or whatever. [00:46:21 - 00:46:26] Part of it is perhaps the transcendental object on the event horizon. [00:46:26 - 00:46:42] But what I'm wrestling with is how to follow my muse, how to live the life that's drawing me and at the same time able to function and pay my child support and not live in the woods. [00:46:42 - 00:46:48] And if you could maybe give some guidance to me and some others have a sort of wrestling with that issue. [00:46:48 - 00:46:52] Well, this is the tension between the transcendental and the mundane. [00:46:52 - 00:46:54] What do you do about it? I don't know. [00:46:54 - 00:47:08] I experience it as a real tension as well, because I you see all these other spiritual techniques, yoga, breath control, diet, you name it. [00:47:08 - 00:47:13] The way you pursue those is with the pedal to the metal. [00:47:13 - 00:47:17] In other words, full on full court press. [00:47:17 - 00:47:25] The way you relate to psychedelics is entirely the opposite with your foot on the brakes all the time. [00:47:25 - 00:47:35] They the people who are using these other these non psychedelic techniques are endlessly frustrated by the fact that they're not able to get where they want to go. [00:47:35 - 00:47:49] I think the people who use psychedelics spend a huge amount of time trying to keep from overshooting the goal and losing themselves in the incomprehensible who knows what. [00:47:49 - 00:48:09] I think that if you have a genuine desire to leave us all behind and to go up on cold mountain and to become a Taoist immortal and to clothe yourself in a hair shirt and eat roots and contemplate the one forever. [00:48:09 - 00:48:11] Hey, there's nothing stopping you. [00:48:11 - 00:48:18] It's just that that's an easy goal to enunciate when it's practically impossible. [00:48:18 - 00:48:20] But it's in the presence of psychedelics. [00:48:20 - 00:48:22] It is quite realizable. [00:48:22 - 00:48:25] And then you have to think, but wait a minute. [00:48:25 - 00:48:27] What about child support? [00:48:27 - 00:48:31] What about, you know, my love of double cappuccino? [00:48:31 - 00:48:33] What about? [00:48:33 - 00:48:36] And then you say, well, I could leave this world. [00:48:36 - 00:48:40] I could become an ascended master. [00:48:40 - 00:48:43] But is that what I really wanted all along? [00:48:43 - 00:48:47] And and I think this is attention. [00:48:47 - 00:48:49] I mean, I feel it in myself. [00:48:49 - 00:48:52] Basically, I do what I do. [00:48:52 - 00:49:10] And it's a chicken shit response to what I could be doing, because what I could be doing is becoming utterly incomprehensible to everybody else on the planet and living in a tree somewhere and happily staring into space every waking minute. [00:49:10 - 00:49:21] And but I I I am not ready to kiss off my library, my children, my friends, my vices. [00:49:21 - 00:49:28] And so people in our position have to balance these things. [00:49:28 - 00:49:34] And I think the real spiritual frontier lies in the community that we must. [00:49:34 - 00:49:38] You know, it's sort of the bodhisattvic ideal. [00:49:38 - 00:49:42] We must somehow carry everyone with us. [00:49:42 - 00:49:45] It's not about bailing out of history. [00:49:45 - 00:49:50] It's about sticking with it until we can end it for everybody. [00:49:50 - 00:49:53] But I'm not saying that's the only point of view. [00:49:53 - 00:49:56] If you want to go if you want to become an R. [00:49:56 - 00:50:15] Hot, I don't think there's anything stopping you. You see, once you get to the place where you find out by some set of peculiar circumstances about these things, psilocybin, DMT and so forth, you have crossed a real frontier. [00:50:15 - 00:50:27] This is not simply another spiritual technique for, you know, picky unish advancement to one more small step down the path. [00:50:27 - 00:50:30] This is in fact this works. [00:50:30 - 00:50:35] And maybe you never thought you would find something that works well. [00:50:35 - 00:50:41] So the entire you see the attitude, it's it's a naive attitude to quest. [00:50:41 - 00:50:48] It's the attitude of the orange in new the fool, the castanet de figure seeks. [00:50:48 - 00:50:55] Once you reach the psychedelic plateau, the tool has been placed in your hands. [00:50:55 - 00:51:05] Now, now you have to figure out whether you were really serious about all this transcendental yearning that you indulged in when it seemed so far out of reach. [00:51:05 - 00:51:09] Because now, you know, it's just a dose away. [00:51:09 - 00:51:12] And we all come to that very differently. [00:51:12 - 00:51:16] It's a different dilemma from the rest of the spiritual community. [00:51:16 - 00:51:19] They just need more and more power. [00:51:19 - 00:51:29] We need more and more insight and wisdom in order to know what to do with the fact that we can now achieve whatever we conceive of. [00:51:29 - 00:51:37] So now is the moment to take a deep breath and decide where we really want to go with this stuff. [00:51:37 - 00:51:43] I just wanted to go back to you talking about the AMA. [00:51:43 - 00:51:48] I know I've heard Dr. Wild talk how they used LSD in treating autism. [00:51:48 - 00:51:55] I knew a guy that was autistic and regained his hearing when his brother gave him LSD when he was 12 years old. [00:51:55 - 00:51:59] I believe the AMA does not want us to be healthy. [00:51:59 - 00:52:02] They do not want us to have the tools. [00:52:02 - 00:52:10] There's a book called Toxic Psychology about how the psychopharmacology is actually making people brain dead. [00:52:10 - 00:52:19] And I think, I mean, if you go back in time, the original healers who used plants and herbs were burned at the stake of being witches [00:52:19 - 00:52:22] because of the medical school they had back then. [00:52:22 - 00:52:23] And they were all men. [00:52:23 - 00:52:26] They wouldn't let women in it even though they had been the original healers. [00:52:26 - 00:52:28] And right now the FDA is doing this. [00:52:28 - 00:52:32] They're trying to outlaw plants and herbs for healing for anything. [00:52:32 - 00:52:36] And this is vitamins, food supplements, everything. [00:52:36 - 00:52:41] And like I myself, I don't take pharmaceutical drugs because they make me sick. [00:52:41 - 00:52:46] And the only thing I have to use for my PMS is hemp, and it's the only thing that works. [00:52:46 - 00:52:52] And we all have to be somewhat political and make statements to people and enlighten them [00:52:52 - 00:52:57] and educate them as to what's really going on because there's a whole world that could be opened up [00:52:57 - 00:53:01] if we started using our plants and our herbs for healing again. [00:53:01 - 00:53:07] Yeah, I agree. [00:53:07 - 00:53:11] There's a lot of holistic centers opening up all over. [00:53:11 - 00:53:20] I was just in one in Leavenworth, Washington, and it was really rewarding and wonderful to see a physician actually reaching out [00:53:20 - 00:53:28] and searching other healers, a shaman and also herbalists, everybody in her private practice. [00:53:28 - 00:53:32] So it is coming in, and it's very slow, but it's coming around. [00:53:32 - 00:53:33] And faster and faster. [00:53:33 - 00:53:37] I think that's why the FDA right now is trying to do away with it because it is growing. [00:53:37 - 00:53:44] If you knew the legislation that is going on right now, they are raiding health food stores with guns [00:53:44 - 00:53:48] and taking things out of there that like aloe vera products. [00:53:48 - 00:53:50] And they're saying they've never been tested. [00:53:50 - 00:53:51] We haven't approved it. [00:53:51 - 00:53:52] And they're taking it. [00:53:52 - 00:53:54] I guarantee you this is happening right now. [00:53:54 - 00:53:58] And that's why you have to be aware, and you have to educate people about it. [00:53:58 - 00:54:06] But you see at the same point, at the same time, they're granting the first INDs for psychedelic research in 30 years. [00:54:06 - 00:54:14] So instead of taking a paranoid view, you know, that they are against it and us, [00:54:14 - 00:54:22] I just think that if you dissect these human institutions, what you find always are individuals. [00:54:22 - 00:54:31] And usually these institutions are fraught with internal conflicts about what they're doing. [00:54:31 - 00:54:33] There's a lot of fear. [00:54:33 - 00:54:36] There's a lot of mistrust. [00:54:36 - 00:54:46] And very few people go around rubbing their hands together and cackling over the fact that they are committing acts of pure evil. [00:54:46 - 00:54:55] Most people have some kind of internal story that tells them that they are doing the very best they can. [00:54:55 - 00:55:02] It's just that there are also a lot of jug-headed misconceptions about what the best we can actually means. [00:55:02 - 00:55:11] This is why dialogue is so important, why free speech is such a powerful notion. [00:55:11 - 00:55:23] Let all ideas compete on a level playing field, and the correct points of view, I think, will emerge eventually. [00:55:23 - 00:55:26] Well, that's why we need people like you out there to get on. [00:55:26 - 00:55:32] [Applause] [00:55:32 - 00:55:40] Backing up a little bit to the journeys to Elfdom and other places, most semantic journeys seem to be almost-- [00:55:40 - 00:55:47] even when they've begun as a group thing, end up being a solitary journey of your own, [00:55:47 - 00:55:51] whether you're the octopus with the colors displaying yourself and you're out there. [00:55:51 - 00:55:58] Very rarely do you hear of people journeying with another mind being, not the body being, but a mind being. [00:55:58 - 00:56:09] So in these journeys, whether you're in an elf realm or another realm, is there a reading between these other entities and you [00:56:09 - 00:56:12] in your journey to their world or their space? [00:56:12 - 00:56:15] Is there a communication at all? [00:56:15 - 00:56:24] And also, can you go with somebody from this realm out there but on a mind plane, or as you described the octopus thing [00:56:24 - 00:56:28] where you're communicating that with words or dictionaries? [00:56:28 - 00:56:30] Well, it's hard to say. [00:56:30 - 00:56:41] You know, Plotinus, who was a Neoplatonic philosopher, he described the mystical experience of as the flight of the alone to the alone. [00:56:41 - 00:56:51] And there certainly is an element in the psychedelic thing of it being so large a dimension that when you go into it, [00:56:51 - 00:57:02] you not only see things that you have never seen before, and not only do you see things that no one else has seen before, [00:57:02 - 00:57:07] but you see things which no one else will ever see again. [00:57:07 - 00:57:17] So I tend to, and this is just my personal preference, and I'm a double Scorpio and a number of different things that push me in this direction. [00:57:17 - 00:57:23] But I really like to do the deep work alone and then try to bring it back. [00:57:23 - 00:57:29] And this is the proper domain for sharing and community. [00:57:29 - 00:57:36] We know that the psychedelic, you know, that behind five grams of psilocybin lies a psychedelic world. [00:57:36 - 00:57:42] But how can we create a psychedelic world here and now on zip? [00:57:42 - 00:57:48] And the answer is by becoming ever more psychedelic ourselves. [00:57:48 - 00:57:53] And so it's a tremendous empowerment for eccentricity. [00:57:53 - 00:57:57] And basically my whole career is based on eccentricity. [00:57:57 - 00:58:12] One of the most fearful questions to come my way is when I'm riding on airplanes to some situation like this and someone sits down beside me and says, so what do you do? [00:58:12 - 00:58:16] And I usually I try to escape. [00:58:16 - 00:58:19] I say, and this is always a horribly weak thing. [00:58:19 - 00:58:22] I say, I write books. [00:58:22 - 00:58:25] And then they say, oh, well, what do you write books about? [00:58:25 - 00:58:28] And then we move into the realm of pure lie. [00:58:28 - 00:58:34] I usually say travel. [00:58:34 - 00:58:50] So, you know, I think if you have I mean, to return to your question, if you have an extraordinary heart connection with someone, you can voyage together a certain distance. [00:58:50 - 00:58:53] But this is a unique kind of thing. [00:58:53 - 00:59:02] And probably many a relationship has experienced unnecessary strain because somebody thought they had that kind of connection. [00:59:02 - 00:59:12] And then when they got out into the incoming psychic surf, they discovered one person forgot their tanks back on the beach. [00:59:12 - 00:59:24] You have to clarify that you said earlier and I heard you say before that behind five milligrams of one thing or five of another, there is a little green elm or something else. [00:59:24 - 00:59:27] Is that a consistent picture for you? [00:59:27 - 00:59:31] Not that the experience would not be new in terms of communication, but is that consistent? [00:59:31 - 00:59:40] Do you do you yourself find that same image or that same level of of mushroom at that point? [00:59:40 - 00:59:51] But then secondly, do in terms of the people that that you communicate with who do measured quantities and who do it similarly, say, Rupert Sheldrake, is do those. [00:59:51 - 01:00:00] Have you have other people of other individuals communicated that they see those same type of creatures, for lack of a better word? [01:00:00 - 01:00:13] That's kind of what I was also getting at. You mentioned one thing about the virtual places and you hear them saying that the urgency of your coming there and being there. [01:00:13 - 01:00:17] And that's a big thing. I feel that it's an important thing. [01:00:17 - 01:00:27] So once you're there and you have to have a community, you're looking for a common denominator of communication there and the urgency of finding something there. [01:00:27 - 01:00:44] I mean, that's kind of, you know, also like. Well, I mean, the answer is, you know, if you send 10 people to Paris and then you interview them about their experience of Paris, you know, one of them stayed with the wife of the prime minister. [01:00:44 - 01:00:48] Somebody else stayed in a bordello on the wrong side of town. [01:00:48 - 01:00:52] Their notions of Paris are rather different. [01:00:52 - 01:01:00] However, if you interview them closely enough, you can tell that this must have been the same place in some sense. [01:01:00 - 01:01:05] I mean, for me, the DMT experience is remarkably consistent. [01:01:05 - 01:01:15] It always is this dome underground filled with these self-transforming elf machine creatures. [01:01:15 - 01:01:28] And then when I talk to other people and interview them about it, what I've come away with is the notion that an archetype is like a series of concentric circles. [01:01:28 - 01:01:36] And to the degree that you reach the center of the circle, the accounts become more and more consistent. [01:01:36 - 01:01:52] For instance, and in thinking along those lines, what I've come to see about, for instance, DMT is that it has an archetype and the archetype is and God knows why the circus. [01:01:52 - 01:01:55] DMT is the archetype of the circus. [01:01:55 - 01:02:01] So you give it to someone who is not psychedelically sophisticated and you give them a low dose. [01:02:01 - 01:02:04] Then they come back. Then you say, what was it like? [01:02:04 - 01:02:07] This is a direct quote from a woman a couple of years ago. [01:02:07 - 01:02:12] She said, it was the saddest carnival I've ever been to. [01:02:12 - 01:02:15] She said, all the rides were closed. [01:02:15 - 01:02:17] Nobody was there. [01:02:17 - 01:02:22] There were just gum wrappers blowing between boarded up tents. [01:02:22 - 01:02:24] I said, interesting. [01:02:24 - 01:02:26] So then give it to someone else. [01:02:26 - 01:02:29] And they said it was full of clowns. [01:02:29 - 01:02:31] And I said, you mean elves? [01:02:31 - 01:02:34] She said, no, just clowns. [01:02:34 - 01:02:47] And as the dose rises, the familiarity of the image is stripped away and it migrates more and more toward this thing behind the mask. [01:02:47 - 01:02:51] Well, now, if you think of the circus, it is an interesting archetype. [01:02:51 - 01:02:56] First of all, three rings in constant activity. [01:02:56 - 01:02:59] And it's a wonderful thing for children. [01:02:59 - 01:03:07] Children love the circus because there's light and color and music and animals and clowns. [01:03:07 - 01:03:12] But then there's also a side to it which children don't see. [01:03:12 - 01:03:28] I mean, you lift your eyes from the center ring and there is Eros in the form of the beautiful blonde woman in the tiny spangled costume who works without nests hanging by her teeth far above the center ring. [01:03:28 - 01:03:35] And twisted into this erotic image is death because she works without nests. [01:03:35 - 01:03:42] The whole point of her performance is the fact that she could fall and be killed. [01:03:42 - 01:04:01] Well, then there's yet another aspect to this circus archetype, which is away from the lady in the spangled costume and the clowns climbing out of their little cars and the powdered elephants of many colors are the sideshows that snake off into the darkness. [01:04:01 - 01:04:06] The two headed lady, the goat boy and the thing in the bottle. [01:04:06 - 01:04:10] They're all there, too, to be looked at. [01:04:10 - 01:04:24] So it's this incredibly rich amalgam of light, color, humor, childhood memories, cotton candy, joy, eros, death, the thing in the bottle, the wild animals, so forth and so on. [01:04:24 - 01:04:29] And as you make your way toward it, different layers fall away. [01:04:29 - 01:04:43] You find a consistency with the. Do you find similar but different consistencies with LSD and with psilocybin that you could make it clear as the consistency that you find with the DNT? [01:04:43 - 01:04:51] Oh, yeah. I think that, see, one of the great confusions about psychedelics is that they're all the same. [01:04:51 - 01:05:02] Like in some textbooks, if you look up psilocybin, it will say a hallucinogen derived from fungi, which causes LSD type hallucinations. [01:05:02 - 01:05:10] This is nonsense. This just simply means that LSD arrived first on the workbench of Western civilization. [01:05:10 - 01:05:18] So everything is referent back to it. If you're going to take these things, you need to take enough that you can tell the difference. [01:05:18 - 01:05:29] And at low doses, all psychedelics are the same. It's just the experience of agitation and psychic inner turmoil. [01:05:29 - 01:05:37] It's sort of like speed, you know, but as the doses increase, you begin to hit the bifurcation points. [01:05:37 - 01:05:40] And these things have distinct personalities. [01:05:40 - 01:05:49] For instance, DMT, the elf playroom reception area, that seems to define it. [01:05:49 - 01:05:57] The amazing thing about psilocybin and its distinguishing characteristic is it speaks. [01:05:57 - 01:06:07] It speaks in English to you. It conversationally approaches you and you talk to it in your mind. [01:06:07 - 01:06:15] I mean, this is an amazing thing. If you've never experienced it, there's something out there for you. Try it. [01:06:15 - 01:06:20] That's what was behind asking you that question, because I don't have any DMT experience. [01:06:20 - 01:06:27] I've never taken psilocybin just in the form of the mushrooms themselves in a botanical garden. [01:06:27 - 01:06:29] And I don't have much other experience. [01:06:29 - 01:06:37] And what happened was quite transformational in the long term because it put me in touch with the plant world. [01:06:37 - 01:06:43] But I didn't close my eyes. I had no other realm. It was the realm that was there in the garden. [01:06:43 - 01:06:49] A communication, well, you said it last night, with the mind of that botanical area. [01:06:49 - 01:06:52] The mind of that plant world that was there. [01:06:52 - 01:07:02] It talked to me, I guess it got translated into English, but it was kind of saying everybody should have very close to them a realm like this to be in. [01:07:02 - 01:07:07] And people would be okay. Do everything you can to support that. [01:07:07 - 01:07:09] That's the message. [01:07:09 - 01:07:14] And for instance, the mushroom has a personality. [01:07:14 - 01:07:21] And like all personalities, it excludes some things and includes others. [01:07:21 - 01:07:26] The mushroom personality is a radically eccentric personality. [01:07:26 - 01:07:30] The mushroom talks about transforming the planet. [01:07:30 - 01:07:34] It says, you know, I come from a distant part of the galaxy. [01:07:34 - 01:07:39] I have 500 million years of galactic history in my data banks. [01:07:39 - 01:07:45] I have seen 50,000 worlds come into existence and pass out of existence. [01:07:45 - 01:07:50] I've seen ships the size of Australia depart for Andromeda. [01:07:50 - 01:07:52] I've seen this. I've seen that. [01:07:52 - 01:07:54] It's willing to show you the newsreels of it. [01:07:54 - 01:07:58] That kind of a and it says your world is ending. [01:07:58 - 01:08:04] Put your furry paw into my hand and together we will march out to the stars. [01:08:04 - 01:08:05] It's this. [01:08:05 - 01:08:17] Well, so then you take a compound or a shamanic hallucinogen like ayahuasca chemically. [01:08:17 - 01:08:20] This is very, very similar to DMT. [01:08:20 - 01:08:24] Experientially, it could hardly be more different. [01:08:24 - 01:08:32] Ayahuasca does not show you images of enormous machines in orbit around alien planets and that sort of thing. [01:08:32 - 01:08:35] Ayahuasca, first of all, it doesn't speak. [01:08:35 - 01:08:37] It shows. [01:08:37 - 01:08:42] You become like the eye of a camera flying through a world. [01:08:42 - 01:08:45] And what it shows you, it's much more feminine. [01:08:45 - 01:08:50] It shows you water flowing over the land. [01:08:50 - 01:08:54] It shows you plant life growing and dying. [01:08:54 - 01:08:58] It shows you the movement of glaciers over the surface of the land. [01:08:58 - 01:09:01] It shows you people burying their dead. [01:09:01 - 01:09:04] It shows you archaic civilizations. [01:09:04 - 01:09:07] It shows you women nursing their children. [01:09:07 - 01:09:09] It shows you meat. [01:09:09 - 01:09:14] It shows you the stuff of this world on every level. [01:09:14 - 01:09:17] And it moves you to tears. [01:09:17 - 01:09:18] I mean, it's emotive. [01:09:18 - 01:09:23] It's not about our cosmic destiny out there in the starry blackness. [01:09:23 - 01:09:29] It's about coming to terms with the Earth and our past and each other. [01:09:29 - 01:09:33] And you say, you know, these things, these are personalities, these are visions. [01:09:33 - 01:09:44] And the idea is to fuse all of this into a single unitary perception that does honor to all and limits none. [01:09:44 - 01:09:46] Back here. [01:09:46 - 01:09:51] I was hoping to be able to have people in one of the doctors here. [01:09:51 - 01:09:58] So there were people who were able to communicate with all types of plant life. [01:09:58 - 01:10:03] And they say that each plant life has a beautiful message to bring. [01:10:03 - 01:10:09] And they did talk about the mushrooms and saying that it does enhance the human immune system. [01:10:09 - 01:10:11] Could you talk a little about that? [01:10:11 - 01:10:13] Well, yes, this is true. [01:10:13 - 01:10:20] You probably all know or may have heard of what's called Rishi-Gen or Ganoderma lucidum. [01:10:20 - 01:10:28] This is a mushroom, a Chinese mushroom that definitely stimulates the immune system. [01:10:28 - 01:10:37] And many fungi probably have have this quality because these higher fungi, the Basidiomycetes, [01:10:37 - 01:10:44] have enough of a trace of their evolutionary depth to more primitive fungi, [01:10:44 - 01:10:53] the kind that cause candida and vaginal fungus and stuff like that, the undifferentiated fungi, [01:10:53 - 01:11:03] that the immune system recognizes this as a potential stimulant and responds to it. [01:11:03 - 01:11:07] So this is definitely true. [01:11:07 - 01:11:09] Yeah. [01:11:09 - 01:11:14] I just got this notion that maybe the Gödel's incompleteness theorem would explain the absence of the self [01:11:14 - 01:11:18] and we dive into it, and I thought maybe you could get a quick answer from it, or even a long answer, [01:11:18 - 01:11:23] about which is more real than the self and the other, or is the self the other, the one? [01:11:23 - 01:11:25] No, the self is the other. [01:11:25 - 01:11:28] That's what I've come away. [01:11:28 - 01:11:31] The self is the other. [01:11:31 - 01:11:36] And assimilating the implications of that takes a lifetime. [01:11:36 - 01:11:42] We have within us the very thing that we're seeking, you know? [01:11:42 - 01:11:50] It's like the Jungian fairy tale of the guy who leaves home and searches the world for enlightenment [01:11:50 - 01:11:58] and has all these adventures and finally concludes that it is not to be found and returns to his home [01:11:58 - 01:12:09] and rebuilds the heart and discovers beneath the heart the thing that he had sought in all the wrong places. [01:12:09 - 01:12:12] I mean, it is within. [01:12:12 - 01:12:15] It is a recurso. [01:12:15 - 01:12:17] What we are looking for is within us. [01:12:17 - 01:12:19] It's our own inner riches. [01:12:19 - 01:12:24] This is why psychedelics are such a powerful antidote to capitalism, [01:12:24 - 01:12:28] because they teach you that you are not a wannabe. [01:12:28 - 01:12:30] You are where it's at. [01:12:30 - 01:12:37] And nobody should allow you or sell you a different point of view to make you think you're going to be complete [01:12:37 - 01:12:41] when you get a Maserati or a Rembrandt or something like that. [01:12:41 - 01:12:44] All that is just the detritus of the physical world. [01:12:44 - 01:12:50] Would you say we're cycling at the same rate between self and other, or is there such a thing that everyone's doing? [01:12:50 - 01:12:57] Well, I think that if we could really follow ourselves into dream every evening with full consciousness, [01:12:57 - 01:13:04] that we would discover that we touch the philosopher's stone at least once every 24 hours. [01:13:04 - 01:13:10] It's just that we return down the river of forgetting, let's say, you know? [01:13:10 - 01:13:17] And every morning we emerge from spending time with the other as self, [01:13:17 - 01:13:25] and then we're inserted back into the fiction of our three-dimensional existence and our individuality. [01:13:25 - 01:13:28] I know that the tapers are getting antsy. [01:13:28 - 01:13:34] We need to break for just a few minutes to have tea and stretch. [01:13:34 - 01:13:35] Don't forget your question. [01:13:35 - 01:13:38] We'll come back and hammer on this a little more. [01:13:38 - 01:13:47] [Applause] [01:13:47 - 01:13:58] While we're doing that, I wanted to call your attention to a new publication on your newsstand, [01:13:58 - 01:14:01] which is "Psychedelic Illuminations." [01:14:01 - 01:14:07] Ron Piper and a number of his associates have gotten this together. [01:14:07 - 01:14:12] In this issue, there happens to be an article or an interview with yours truly. [01:14:12 - 01:14:15] I don't know if there's anything in it we didn't cover today, [01:14:15 - 01:14:20] but psychedelic publication is rare enough anyway. [01:14:20 - 01:14:24] So it's called "Psychedelic Illuminations." [01:14:24 - 01:14:26] This is issue three of volume one. [01:14:26 - 01:14:34] It's still not too late to be the first on your block to subscribe to this publication, [01:14:34 - 01:14:36] so watch for it. [01:14:36 - 01:14:37] This is Ron. [01:14:37 - 01:14:43] If you want to talk to him, I'm sure he can arrange for you to have more involvement with it. [01:14:43 - 01:14:50] Okay, so we're into the final round here. [01:14:50 - 01:14:57] Is there anybody who's really--oh, there they are, the burning people. [01:14:57 - 01:14:58] Yes? [01:14:58 - 01:15:05] [Inaudible] [01:15:05 - 01:15:09] I didn't quite get it, and I just wondered if you would clarify because it bothered me a lot. [01:15:09 - 01:15:11] And I thought I couldn't quite see. [01:15:11 - 01:15:15] Democracy is limited, but that doesn't mean you throw it out. [01:15:15 - 01:15:20] I didn't--you know, it's always limited, but it's still valuable for what it does, perhaps. [01:15:20 - 01:15:23] So I wondered if you could explain better how you-- [01:15:23 - 01:15:27] Well, no, I wasn't advocating getting rid of democracy. [01:15:27 - 01:15:31] What I was suggesting was that we don't really have democracy [01:15:31 - 01:15:36] because we don't have an ideologically level playing field, [01:15:36 - 01:15:44] because special interest groups are able to spend so much money to influence opinion [01:15:44 - 01:15:50] that what we really have is an oligarchy of special interest groups [01:15:50 - 01:15:58] that is very skillfully able to manipulate the general population into taking up positions [01:15:58 - 01:16:02] that they would not naturally incline themselves toward. [01:16:02 - 01:16:13] So if you're serious about having a democracy, then you have to somehow curtail the incredibly sophisticated efforts [01:16:13 - 01:16:19] to skew the democratic dialogue to favor one or another special interest groups [01:16:19 - 01:16:23] that are buying their way into the dialogue. [01:16:23 - 01:16:28] I thought you were throwing the concept out because you mentioned about, oh, this one person, one vote thing. [01:16:28 - 01:16:29] No, didn't I-- [01:16:30 - 01:16:33] I mean, I agree it's an ideal more than a reality, you know. [01:16:33 - 01:16:37] No, I think democracy--I'm a thoroughgoing Democrat. [01:16:37 - 01:16:44] I think democracy is almost a biologically obvious way of organizing ourselves. [01:16:44 - 01:16:47] I mean, one person, one vote. [01:16:47 - 01:16:55] What I was knocking is that behind democracy lurks the idea of the citizen, [01:16:55 - 01:17:06] and that's the idea that we're all exactly alike, and that's preposterous and an unnecessary fiction to the practice of democracy. [01:17:06 - 01:17:13] We are not all alike in our abilities, in the wealth we command, so forth and so on. [01:17:13 - 01:17:19] So for purposes of governing ourselves, we give each person a say, [01:17:19 - 01:17:28] but we shouldn't then extrapolate that uniformity into the idea that we are, in fact, uniform. [01:17:28 - 01:17:29] We are not. [01:17:29 - 01:17:36] You see, democracy of that sort, based on the modern concept of the citizen, [01:17:36 - 01:17:44] has arisen in the wake of the invention of printing, and printing-- [01:17:44 - 01:17:54] a number of ideas spun off from printing that McLuhan was the only person to really correctly identify what they were and what their effects were. [01:17:54 - 01:18:03] One is the idea of interchangeable parts, because print is a system of interchangeable parts. [01:18:03 - 01:18:11] Once you establish a font, every lowercase e looks like every other lowercase e. [01:18:11 - 01:18:18] What we are is more like, more analogous to what you deal with in manuscript, [01:18:18 - 01:18:30] where every e is sort of like every other e, but it contains individual variations imparted by the fact that it was drawn by a human hand at a given moment. [01:18:30 - 01:18:44] We want to express our political wills through a system of equality, but we don't want to do damage to our individual uniqueness. [01:18:44 - 01:18:55] And the point I was trying to get at last night is the concept of the citizen, it does erode the idea of our uniqueness to some degree. [01:18:55 - 01:18:57] Yeah? [01:18:57 - 01:19:12] You crafted an elegant response that basically said that the first molecule was pure, and every mutation after that became more complex. [01:19:12 - 01:19:18] I'd like your comments on the rift that they found in Western Canada in recent scientific times, [01:19:18 - 01:19:29] which has become a mother lode of soft, I don't know what the word is, of mammals, not mammals, but sea creatures, [01:19:29 - 01:19:34] that are incredibly more complex than anything found on the planet today, [01:19:34 - 01:19:40] which has strongly suggested to the scientific community that we are devolving, rather than evolving. [01:19:40 - 01:19:49] Well, you're referring to the Burgess Shale and what's his name's book, Wonderful Life, right? Yeah.