[00:00:00 - 00:00:03] Just to the scientific community that we are devolving rather than evolving [00:00:03 - 00:00:13] Well, you're referring to the Burgess shale and what's-his-name's book wonderful life, right? Yeah [00:00:13 - 00:00:15] I [00:00:15 - 00:00:18] Sort of differ with your interpretation of it [00:00:18 - 00:00:24] It wasn't that these things were more complex than any life forms on the earth today [00:00:24 - 00:00:32] It was that they represented a large number of phyla none of which exist on [00:00:32 - 00:00:37] The earth today so the point that was being made by the paleontologist is [00:00:37 - 00:00:46] Apparently we started out with many different phyla and then it narrowed at some point into just a few [00:00:46 - 00:00:48] Phyla which then [00:00:48 - 00:00:52] Reradiated out into all the forms we possess today [00:00:53 - 00:00:55] so I think [00:00:55 - 00:01:01] Other people have brought this up and it's a troubling example because it tends to throw a [00:01:01 - 00:01:08] railroad tie against the onrushing of my rhetorical freight train [00:01:08 - 00:01:11] But that's the name of the game folks [00:01:11 - 00:01:15] It probably is true that at that [00:01:15 - 00:01:21] An early point in the evolution of life. I mean, it's obviously now established [00:01:21 - 00:01:26] There were these many many different phyla and for unknown reasons [00:01:26 - 00:01:29] certain phyla became extinct and then the [00:01:29 - 00:01:32] the [00:01:32 - 00:01:34] the phyla which were left [00:01:34 - 00:01:37] radiated and filled all the abandoned niches [00:01:37 - 00:01:43] That had previously been occupied by these now extinct organisms [00:01:43 - 00:01:45] but [00:01:45 - 00:01:49] Nevertheless, we have to look at this question of for reasons unknown [00:01:50 - 00:01:58] They became extinct. Why did some phyla survive and others not it would be inconsistent with the theory of [00:01:58 - 00:02:02] Evolution to suggest that this happened entirely by chance [00:02:02 - 00:02:07] there must have been some adaptive advantage possessed by the [00:02:07 - 00:02:11] Phyla that made it through whatever these narrow [00:02:11 - 00:02:17] evolutionary necks were and then the phyla which survived these [00:02:17 - 00:02:20] psychological crises or whatever they are [00:02:20 - 00:02:30] Radiated into an incredible number of complex forms that nevertheless could be traced to a small number of earlier [00:02:30 - 00:02:37] phyla a more in line with your the thrust of your argument a more [00:02:37 - 00:02:40] difficult to answer [00:02:40 - 00:02:46] objection that I don't know why I'm telling you this because it erodes my own position, but I was [00:02:47 - 00:02:49] preaching this the world [00:02:49 - 00:02:51] complexifies through time rap at [00:02:51 - 00:02:56] Esalen one time and a guy was staying with me there who was a [00:02:56 - 00:02:59] professional Russian [00:02:59 - 00:03:05] Translator he was a Russian and a linguist and he said, you know, there's a major [00:03:05 - 00:03:09] exception to your rule that all phenomena [00:03:09 - 00:03:14] Complexified through time and and that is language [00:03:14 - 00:03:17] He said as we go back into the past [00:03:17 - 00:03:20] languages become richer and [00:03:20 - 00:03:29] I I am still puzzling over this. I don't think it's an inherent property of language [00:03:29 - 00:03:32] I think it's because as we go back into the past [00:03:32 - 00:03:36] languages become more and more localized and [00:03:36 - 00:03:39] local variations [00:03:39 - 00:03:41] develop in small [00:03:41 - 00:03:43] confined [00:03:43 - 00:03:50] geographical areas so that then when you pour all these languages together there tends to be a certain [00:03:50 - 00:03:55] Leveling and this probably [00:03:55 - 00:04:00] Results in a [00:04:00 - 00:04:02] in a general [00:04:02 - 00:04:07] Fall in the total number of words being used in a language [00:04:07 - 00:04:13] in other words if in Canada they call a windshield a windscreen and [00:04:13 - 00:04:16] In England, they call it something else [00:04:16 - 00:04:22] Well, then as long as Canada England in the US don't communicate we have three words for windshield [00:04:22 - 00:04:25] But if these three cultures communicate [00:04:25 - 00:04:27] frequently and deeply [00:04:27 - 00:04:34] Probably a couple of these words will become obsolete or colloquial and one term will dominate so [00:04:35 - 00:04:42] Language is not evolving in a vacuum. You have to look at the effects of modern transportation [00:04:42 - 00:04:48] Migrations of people and that sort of thing. I agree that this is not this [00:04:48 - 00:04:56] Complexification through time thing has the characteristic of a general tendency, but it's not an ironclad [00:04:56 - 00:05:02] Natural law we can see that now for instance [00:05:02 - 00:05:05] Communism in the Soviet Union [00:05:05 - 00:05:10] acted as a deep freeze for traditional cultures [00:05:10 - 00:05:18] Wonderful traditional cultures exist out on the steps of Central Asia in Kyrgyzstan Turkmenistan [00:05:18 - 00:05:22] Nagorno-Badakhshanskaya and these places [00:05:22 - 00:05:30] Well, these wonderful traditional cultures are probably now all trading in their colorful garb [00:05:31 - 00:05:33] regularies and technologies for [00:05:33 - 00:05:35] transistor radio [00:05:35 - 00:05:39] subscriptions to Time magazine and Der Spiegel and [00:05:39 - 00:05:45] Generally lining up with the the global leveling of culture that we see in the 20th century [00:05:45 - 00:05:49] So these are complex issues and you're you're right. It is [00:05:49 - 00:05:52] entirely straightforward [00:05:52 - 00:06:00] Do you mean the ones of Prague or the one to Italy [00:06:01 - 00:06:03] Well [00:06:03 - 00:06:13] Well, I went to Prague to the ITA conference International Transpersonal Association Conference in June and [00:06:13 - 00:06:16] I [00:06:16 - 00:06:20] Had never realized till I went there it was my second trip to Czechoslovakia [00:06:20 - 00:06:28] But you know as children we grew up with a wonderful story of an emerald green country [00:06:29 - 00:06:37] Farmed by happy munchkins and ruled from a beautiful capital city built around a [00:06:37 - 00:06:39] splendiferous palace [00:06:39 - 00:06:47] presided over by a wizard and I realized Czechoslovakia is Oz for grown-ups and [00:06:47 - 00:06:50] It the [00:06:50 - 00:06:58] morphogenetic field of the place is such that it might be a place we should all consider as a good [00:06:58 - 00:07:01] Venue for an archaic revival [00:07:01 - 00:07:07] I think Prague in the 90s could be what Paris in the 20s was [00:07:07 - 00:07:10] It is after all the capital of old Bohemia [00:07:10 - 00:07:14] You may not know why we are called [00:07:14 - 00:07:22] Bohemians you don't have to have a Slavic gene in your entire family tree and can claim yourself as the Bohemian [00:07:22 - 00:07:26] It's because Bohemia stood for [00:07:27 - 00:07:29] individual freedom [00:07:29 - 00:07:33] eccentricity the magical art the practice of the arts and [00:07:33 - 00:07:36] the a [00:07:36 - 00:07:42] science which more gently approached the union of spirit and matter and [00:07:42 - 00:07:44] this whole [00:07:44 - 00:07:47] potential alchemical [00:07:47 - 00:07:54] Civilization based around Prague was destroyed by the 30 Years War if you're interested in all this [00:07:54 - 00:07:57] You should read Francis Yates book the Rosicrucian [00:07:57 - 00:08:03] Enlightenment in which she shows that at a certain point in Western history [00:08:03 - 00:08:11] There was the possibility of a Protestant alchemical revival in Central Europe that was [00:08:11 - 00:08:17] Bungled by a series of diplomatic and cultural [00:08:17 - 00:08:23] misunderstandings and led instead to the 30 Years War which then if you know it [00:08:24 - 00:08:31] Before the 30 Years War Europe was thoroughly medieval in its character really and at the end of the 30 Years War [00:08:31 - 00:08:39] Modernity was launched. I mean the absolute power of kings had been replaced by parliaments and peoples and [00:08:39 - 00:08:41] Prague [00:08:41 - 00:08:47] When the people who won the 30 Years War got down to redrawing the maps of Europe [00:08:47 - 00:08:54] they made sure that Prague fell on the long wrong side of the language line and became a place that spoke a [00:08:54 - 00:08:58] language spoken nowhere else in Europe check [00:08:58 - 00:09:05] Instead of the language that had been spoken there before the 30 Years War by the court, which was Italian [00:09:05 - 00:09:10] so it's a whole lost episode in Western history that [00:09:10 - 00:09:12] Not too many people know about but [00:09:13 - 00:09:18] We could all return to our bohemian roots and create a community [00:09:18 - 00:09:24] under the gentle aegis of Vaclav Havel and similar [00:09:24 - 00:09:30] Philosophically right-thinking people that might be a window of opportunity [00:09:30 - 00:09:35] We you know it's very important when you're trying to make social change [00:09:35 - 00:09:38] That you find the proper [00:09:39 - 00:09:46] resting place for your your fulcrum or a proper fulcrum for your lever and the best place is [00:09:46 - 00:09:55] outside the system that you're trying to move and if we're serious about carrying on a major critique of American [00:09:55 - 00:09:59] Society Prague might be an excellent place from which to do it [00:09:59 - 00:10:04] Especially if by some nightmarish fluke of fate [00:10:04 - 00:10:08] The not as currently in power are able to hang on [00:10:09 - 00:10:17] Sorry for that brief foray into politics. That's what Richard was trying to bait me into yeah [00:10:17 - 00:10:31] Several miles above where we are today [00:10:34 - 00:10:40] A lost civilization with walls that surround the city and artifacts carved into the mountains [00:10:40 - 00:10:45] That could not have possibly been from the Indians the technology that [00:10:45 - 00:10:50] They believe was a part of this lost civilization was from another world [00:10:50 - 00:10:54] could you comment on what your feelings are in terms of our [00:10:54 - 00:11:00] Planet being colonized by extraterrestrials in terms of Atlantis and the more of the land of no [00:11:01 - 00:11:05] Yeah, I can I'm not sure how much comfort it will give you [00:11:05 - 00:11:13] It seems to me an underwhelming [00:11:13 - 00:11:17] Proposition in other words if this happened [00:11:17 - 00:11:20] Where is the evidence? [00:11:20 - 00:11:23] You know there have been fabulous [00:11:24 - 00:11:32] Civilizations existing in the past but there are artifacts their buildings their earthworks are available to be [00:11:32 - 00:11:35] Visited and seen it seems to me [00:11:35 - 00:11:44] You know in trying to build models. I try to follow Occam's razor. You all know what Occam's razor is [00:11:44 - 00:11:47] Hypothesis should not be multiplied without [00:11:47 - 00:11:53] Necessity and I just find the the lost continent thing [00:11:54 - 00:11:56] an [00:11:56 - 00:11:57] unnecessary [00:11:57 - 00:11:59] Hypothesis, I think there are lost [00:11:59 - 00:12:05] Civilizations, but I think we do a grave injustice to our dilemma and our [00:12:05 - 00:12:11] Accomplishment by thinking that anybody ever stood in this position [00:12:11 - 00:12:19] Before to me you see there's an impulse. That's very old in the Western mind to [00:12:20 - 00:12:27] And strangely enough I trade on it to some degree. It's called the nostalgia for paradise and [00:12:27 - 00:12:31] It's that we are always looking back to a lost [00:12:31 - 00:12:37] Golden age and I think there was a lost Golden age on the plains of Africa [00:12:37 - 00:12:44] 15,000 years ago I discussed it this morning, but I don't think high technology [00:12:45 - 00:12:52] Has ever existed before on this planet. Well, there's just no evidence of it and the [00:12:52 - 00:12:55] Atlantean and people and the enthusiasts of Murr [00:12:55 - 00:13:02] Murr move and Lemuria are always trying to fiddle with the date and [00:13:02 - 00:13:06] Say, you know the Great Pyramid is [00:13:06 - 00:13:11] 25,000 years old and there's a ruin on the Nazca plain [00:13:11 - 00:13:17] That's 50,000 years old. This is first of all, the evidence is absolutely [00:13:17 - 00:13:22] Unconvincing and second of all the miracle is not how old [00:13:22 - 00:13:31] The breakout into language and technology is but how recent it is. I agree with you. I think that [00:13:31 - 00:13:38] You know if you were to go scuba diving off of Bermuda and the Bimini Islands you would find [00:13:39 - 00:13:41] What many people believe are [00:13:41 - 00:13:43] artifacts from Atlantis [00:13:43 - 00:13:50] You can hike in Decker Canyon and most of what is to be found is under water because of the shift in the continental place [00:13:50 - 00:13:53] 10,000 years ago or more but [00:13:53 - 00:14:00] Many people believe that the UFO involvement in that civilization [00:14:00 - 00:14:04] Is still very active today. I know someone who I [00:14:05 - 00:14:11] Believe you met last night Robert Stanley from Munich is magazine. He takes people on these expeditions in Decker Canyon [00:14:11 - 00:14:17] He took somebody to beginning of the summer and a raw film was shot. The person was from the East Coast [00:14:17 - 00:14:19] I believe in Boston and [00:14:19 - 00:14:23] He spaced on the development of his film. He just forgot about it and he decided okay [00:14:23 - 00:14:30] I might as well get this developed and sure enough hovering in the distance over this part of the canyon were 12 saucers [00:14:30 - 00:14:31] And it's a pretty obvious picture [00:14:31 - 00:14:37] I saw it last night for the first time and I'm just curious because I think that a lot of us don't really [00:14:37 - 00:14:41] deal with a lot of the information that's coming out right now because [00:14:41 - 00:14:50] It's overwhelming. You know, it's almost like wow. Well, I I I am prepared to be convinced [00:14:50 - 00:14:56] But I'm not willing to buy in without a fair amount of evidence [00:14:56 - 00:14:59] As far as UFOs are concerned [00:15:01 - 00:15:07] I've thought a lot about it. I've seen them far away up close and [00:15:07 - 00:15:10] it's not what people say it is and [00:15:10 - 00:15:14] The the problem there are two phenomena [00:15:14 - 00:15:21] the UFO who knows what that is and then the UFO community and [00:15:21 - 00:15:27] My god, these people are much weirder than UFOs. I mean they [00:15:29 - 00:15:34] Well the whole slew of them and the whole problem with the UFO community is [00:15:34 - 00:15:39] Apparently these people have never heard about the rules of evidence [00:15:39 - 00:15:46] I mean, they're just full of revelation after revelation with absolutely zip to back it up [00:15:46 - 00:15:50] There are so many I mean you look at these UFO magazines [00:15:50 - 00:15:55] Well, do you want to believe master Chen book of the nobunji system? [00:15:55 - 00:16:01] Or do you want to go with the Billy Meyers crowd or what's coming out of Brazil? [00:16:01 - 00:16:09] I think Jacques Vallee and one of his books estimated that if you don't believe UFOs only appear where there are witnesses and [00:16:09 - 00:16:14] take the number of sightings seen by people and [00:16:14 - 00:16:18] Extrapolate that by the area of the surface of the earth [00:16:18 - 00:16:25] You have to conclude that UFOs are coming and going from this planet at a rate of 12,000 a month [00:16:25 - 00:16:30] Well my god, what kind of extraterrestrial contact is this that? [00:16:30 - 00:16:35] 12,000 a month for 50 years and never a definitive piece of evidence [00:16:35 - 00:16:40] I was talking to one of the researchers on the fetal [00:16:40 - 00:16:48] Abduction thing. I was all excited. He said to me, you know, I've talked to 500 women who claim [00:16:48 - 00:16:54] surgical removal of fetuses and he said and you know the amazing thing [00:16:54 - 00:16:56] There's not a single [00:16:56 - 00:17:04] Sign of physical invasion of these women's bodies and I said well dr. X doesn't this suggest? [00:17:04 - 00:17:11] Something to you and he said yeah advanced surgical techniques of which we have no knowledge [00:17:11 - 00:17:14] Said well, yeah, but doesn't it? I mean give me a break [00:17:14 - 00:17:22] So I think they have to operate in the light of the same evidence as everybody else and their problem is that they claim [00:17:22 - 00:17:24] to know too much [00:17:24 - 00:17:26] They're just willing to tell you, you know [00:17:26 - 00:17:31] 125,000 years ago they arrived to grow sweet peas and then [00:17:31 - 00:17:40] 100,000 years ago the project changed in the 11th planet did something too much too much data. It's too Jack Armstrong [00:17:40 - 00:17:46] Believe our government has the technology to travel and ships to other stars. You think we're doing that today [00:17:46 - 00:17:50] Or do you think that's our future? No, I don't think we're doing that today [00:17:50 - 00:17:55] I mean, this is that we have a government that can't knock off [00:17:55 - 00:18:01] a loudmouth in Baghdad let alone travel to other stars [00:18:01 - 00:18:05] Pardon me [00:18:05 - 00:18:18] Research and technology. Well, obviously there is a black [00:18:19 - 00:18:21] portion of the government where [00:18:21 - 00:18:28] Research goes on and probably fairly kinky things are carried out. But these people are no different [00:18:28 - 00:18:34] From us. I mean some of them may be here today and I don't mean [00:18:34 - 00:18:36] Cops, I mean, you know [00:18:36 - 00:18:43] There may be massive scientists here today that we are not so different from the people we're talking about [00:18:43 - 00:18:45] Human beings cannot keep a secret [00:18:45 - 00:18:51] You may bank on it. And so the idea that you know, somebody possesses the technology [00:18:51 - 00:18:54] Thousands of years in advance of us [00:18:54 - 00:19:02] I mean then when you actually tear the lid off some of these government black operations, you don't find [00:19:02 - 00:19:08] super scientists and brilliant minds you find people like Gordon Liddy and [00:19:08 - 00:19:11] John Dean and you know half with clowns [00:19:13 - 00:19:20] Seem to lie behind most of this I I believe that no I am NOT a conspiracy [00:19:20 - 00:19:27] Person I believe that nobody is in control and that the people who seek control [00:19:27 - 00:19:36] are the most misguided of all and that there's a great deal more than we don't know than we do know and [00:19:39 - 00:19:44] You know, I would love to be convinced that something really far out were happening [00:19:44 - 00:19:48] But it's just always seems to come apart in your hands [00:19:48 - 00:19:54] These are I consider stuff like the UFO phenomenon as popularly [00:19:54 - 00:20:01] Commercially available UFO beliefs as basically [00:20:01 - 00:20:04] viruses of language [00:20:04 - 00:20:12] Diseases of understanding if you could teach people about the laws of evidence and how you build a case and [00:20:12 - 00:20:14] Stuff like that [00:20:14 - 00:20:22] Then people wouldn't be troubled by this the same fuzzy thinking that permits people to believe in [00:20:22 - 00:20:25] UFOs permits them to believe in the imminent [00:20:25 - 00:20:32] expectation of the second coming or you know the face of Christ appearing on tortillas and [00:20:33 - 00:20:35] all of this [00:20:35 - 00:20:37] Turns my stuff here for a second [00:20:37 - 00:20:41] I is there a lot of people still with questions because they still have a lot of time [00:20:41 - 00:20:43] Well, at least till six o'clock supposedly [00:20:43 - 00:20:46] Can I have a show of hands of [00:20:46 - 00:20:53] Okay, there's a few more because we want to sort of limit the questions the one question per person and and sort of one [00:20:53 - 00:20:56] rebuttal from that so that everybody could get a fair share before we [00:20:56 - 00:20:59] make a final [00:20:59 - 00:21:02] This is a gentle hint to stop raving about [00:21:02 - 00:21:14] Oh, I see well I say to the UFO people the same thing, you know, what can you show us? [00:21:14 - 00:21:16] drag it forth [00:21:16 - 00:21:19] Everything has to be judged on the same field [00:21:19 - 00:21:27] If you've got something spill it but to claim, you know as I don't want to use names here [00:21:27 - 00:21:33] But stories like well, we met the UFOs and they gave us a message for mankind [00:21:33 - 00:21:39] But when we got back to our car our tape recorder had been miraculously erased itself [00:21:39 - 00:21:45] Well, then be quiet don't tell anybody this don't you understand how lame that sounds to the doubt? [00:21:45 - 00:21:54] It's it's not the believer you have to convince. They're a pushover. What are you gonna do about your skeptics? That's the problem [00:21:55 - 00:21:57] Oh [00:21:57 - 00:22:00] You want me to tell you a story I [00:22:00 - 00:22:09] was in the Amazon I was in a state of considerable psychic turmoil and [00:22:09 - 00:22:11] I [00:22:11 - 00:22:18] Sat up all night. This is told by the way in the book true hallucinations, which will be published next year and [00:22:18 - 00:22:26] At dawn I looked across this lake and there was a thin line of clouds on the horizon and [00:22:26 - 00:22:29] I [00:22:29 - 00:22:35] Watched this line of clouds and they were and then suddenly I noticed that they were turning in place [00:22:35 - 00:22:40] Like a pencil spinning on its axis in one place and then the clouds [00:22:40 - 00:22:46] This line of clouds broke apart into four perfectly [00:22:47 - 00:22:55] identical lenticular clouds and then the lenticular the four lenticular clouds merged into two [00:22:55 - 00:23:01] lenticular clouds and then the two merged into one and as [00:23:01 - 00:23:04] They merged into one. I [00:23:04 - 00:23:10] Heard the the we we we sound of Hollywood science fiction [00:23:10 - 00:23:18] Flying saucers and I realized this thing was coming toward me across the lake and it was absolutely [00:23:18 - 00:23:24] convincing it was a flying saucer the real thing and and I I [00:23:24 - 00:23:34] Was absolutely convinced that it was going to take me at that moment and as it passed over [00:23:34 - 00:23:37] only about [00:23:37 - 00:23:40] 200 feet above my head. I [00:23:40 - 00:23:46] Could see it clearly enough that I could see rivets on its underside [00:23:46 - 00:23:55] I could see its running light I could see it. But you know what I saw I saw the end cap of a [00:23:55 - 00:24:06] 1932 model Hoover vacuum cleaner it was the very same flying saucer that George Adam ski [00:24:07 - 00:24:10] suspended from a piece of mylar fishing line in [00:24:10 - 00:24:13] 1953 and [00:24:13 - 00:24:15] photographed in his garage [00:24:15 - 00:24:19] One of the most famous UFO hoaxes of all time [00:24:19 - 00:24:24] I saw it a diameter of 40 feet over the Amazon Basin [00:24:24 - 00:24:28] And I knew what I was looking at it was [00:24:28 - 00:24:30] more [00:24:30 - 00:24:37] Disturbing than if it had been a ship from Zeta reticule because it had built-in cognitive dissonance [00:24:37 - 00:24:41] What [00:24:41 - 00:24:52] If it's a very short story [00:24:52 - 00:24:54] I [00:24:54 - 00:24:56] Don't [00:24:56 - 00:24:58] I [00:24:58 - 00:25:00] I [00:25:00 - 00:25:02] Thought [00:25:02 - 00:25:04] I [00:25:04 - 00:25:06] Don't know what I ever saw [00:25:06 - 00:25:08] I [00:25:08 - 00:25:10] Want to [00:25:10 - 00:25:12] I [00:25:12 - 00:25:14] I [00:25:14 - 00:25:16] I [00:25:16 - 00:25:18] I [00:25:18 - 00:25:20] I [00:25:20 - 00:25:22] I [00:25:22 - 00:25:24] I [00:25:24 - 00:25:26] Oh [00:25:26 - 00:25:28] And [00:25:28 - 00:25:30] I [00:25:30 - 00:25:32] Oh [00:25:32 - 00:25:34] I [00:25:34 - 00:25:36] Oh [00:25:36 - 00:25:38] I [00:25:38 - 00:25:40] I [00:25:40 - 00:25:42] I [00:25:42 - 00:25:44] I [00:25:44 - 00:25:46] I [00:25:46 - 00:25:48] I [00:26:15 - 00:26:19] Well see I I believe you completely I don't have any problem with that [00:26:19 - 00:26:27] It's simply an enormous leap to say that that was a craft from another star [00:26:27 - 00:26:35] It's much better to just say it's a who knows what it is. The world is full of weird stuff [00:26:35 - 00:26:42] Just briefly. Here's my best theory on flying saucers and a whole bunch of other stuff [00:26:42 - 00:26:46] This tries to solve all problems of this sort simultaneously [00:26:46 - 00:26:53] The transcendental object at the end of time. Let's drag it in here [00:26:53 - 00:26:57] And let's imagine that it is like those mirrored [00:26:57 - 00:27:03] Balls that they hang in discos above the bar and spin [00:27:03 - 00:27:05] so then I think that [00:27:07 - 00:27:15] Definitely there is a forward movement of causal necessity which propels us from the past into the present on into the future [00:27:15 - 00:27:17] but that there is also and [00:27:17 - 00:27:20] necessary to account for [00:27:20 - 00:27:27] precognitive visions and stuff like that which happen all the time a flow of information from the future [00:27:27 - 00:27:30] into the past and [00:27:30 - 00:27:34] the transcendental object at the end of time is [00:27:35 - 00:27:37] casting [00:27:37 - 00:27:39] reflections of itself [00:27:39 - 00:27:42] backward into the past and [00:27:42 - 00:27:47] If you are struck, whatever that means by one of these [00:27:47 - 00:27:53] scintillas from the transcendental object at the end of time then you begin to cure and [00:27:53 - 00:27:57] Teach and if you really got a good hit [00:27:57 - 00:28:03] Possibly raise the dead. I mean, I'm not sure how far it can go now [00:28:04 - 00:28:09] Also these since these images of the transcendental object at the end of time [00:28:09 - 00:28:14] haunt the skies of this planet in the form of [00:28:14 - 00:28:16] spinning vortices of [00:28:16 - 00:28:24] Contradiction this is what Jung said. He said, you know, the UFO is an image of the self [00:28:24 - 00:28:30] And I don't mean the little self. I mean the collective self of humanity [00:28:30 - 00:28:34] So a story like Jim's story is [00:28:34 - 00:28:41] I have no problem with it. I take it as true. It's the people who say [00:28:41 - 00:28:49] You know and they revealed the nature of the fall of Atlantis and the world planet then it's too much [00:28:49 - 00:28:52] because it's [00:28:52 - 00:28:58] Coming through human interpretation the horrible thing about the UFO people who claim contact [00:28:58 - 00:29:05] Is that the the aliens they present to us are so incredibly mundane [00:29:05 - 00:29:11] So much more mundane than what you would encounter on a DMT flash [00:29:11 - 00:29:14] That they're just like the neighbors next door [00:29:14 - 00:29:21] I think that you know alien intelligence. The trick is not to find it [00:29:21 - 00:29:25] But to recognize that when it's in front of you in tell [00:29:25 - 00:29:33] Intelligence is a very slippery concept. Sometimes we can't even identify it in the person sitting next to us on the bus [00:29:33 - 00:29:40] So how can you expect to identify the intelligence of an alien? It just seems incredibly [00:29:40 - 00:29:46] Unlikely to me. I think the world is a lot stranger than we suppose without [00:29:46 - 00:29:53] Evoking benevolent aliens who prefer vegetarian diets and who come from the stars [00:29:53 - 00:30:00] I mean, why do they so fit our preconception of what they would be? I mean silvery humanoid [00:30:00 - 00:30:06] Alien intelligence and alien life when and if you meet it [00:30:06 - 00:30:12] You'll know you're in the presence of the real thing because you'll be barely able to wrap your mind around it [00:30:19 - 00:30:24] Well, if we perceive these as being aliens that's one thing but what happens if in fact [00:30:24 - 00:30:28] These humanoid creatures that we're defining are up [00:30:28 - 00:30:36] Traveling back through time and and being able to materialize our through our through the future technology [00:30:36 - 00:30:42] Then we're talking about something different. I'm not saying that this is true. This is only you know part of my own, you know speculation [00:30:42 - 00:30:48] Well, it's an attractive idea. It raises problems as I'm sure you're aware the grandfather [00:30:49 - 00:30:51] Doc's and so forth and so on [00:30:51 - 00:30:53] But it's a possibility [00:30:53 - 00:30:59] I think it's more likely that these are emissaries from the land of the dead [00:30:59 - 00:31:07] Then from the Pleiades and that it's since they speak English since they look humanoid [00:31:07 - 00:31:13] Since they seem to care about us and our technologies and so forth. They seem remarkably human [00:31:13 - 00:31:17] Well, maybe they're concerned about their own state of well-being maybe somehow [00:31:18 - 00:31:24] It's related to the you know, what's going on here now and what the outcome is going to be [00:31:24 - 00:31:30] Maybe that's going to somehow affect the way they are, you know, I mean we've seen it in Star Trek, you know [00:31:30 - 00:31:31] I mean the idea is [00:31:31 - 00:31:36] No, the ideas of you know people coming back from the future to you know [00:31:36 - 00:31:42] I mean there is a paradox obviously involved in this so it is it's a lot of our imagination at work [00:31:42 - 00:31:46] But the same time it's the same in the same ideas [00:31:47 - 00:31:53] You know, maybe there's a certain sense of reality about it. Maybe there is maybe there is it could be a holographic [00:31:53 - 00:31:57] projection out of the guy in mind it could be [00:31:57 - 00:32:00] You know a race of intelligence [00:32:00 - 00:32:07] Saurians that rose and fell before the asteroid impact that wiped out the dinosaur. It could be [00:32:07 - 00:32:13] All and everything the trick is to try and get some kind of evidentiary hold on [00:32:16 - 00:32:18] This is a nut and bolt question [00:32:18 - 00:32:24] but first I'd like to preface it by saying that I haven't used psychedelics in 20 years and [00:32:24 - 00:32:28] I haven't used marijuana in seven and [00:32:28 - 00:32:31] and have been considering [00:32:31 - 00:32:35] Return to the use of psychedelics and [00:32:35 - 00:32:40] When I stopped [00:32:40 - 00:32:48] The last experience which I had it wasn't a terrifying experience and it wasn't a bad trip it was [00:32:48 - 00:32:51] similar [00:32:51 - 00:32:57] It presents similar insights that I have heard you mention and speak of [00:32:57 - 00:32:59] But there were times in which [00:32:59 - 00:33:02] my psychedelic use [00:33:02 - 00:33:08] Left me rather shaken and terrified [00:33:09 - 00:33:11] Dealing with [00:33:11 - 00:33:12] fear of death [00:33:12 - 00:33:19] And crossing over the line though. I have to say that my very first psychedelic experience was one which [00:33:19 - 00:33:27] Contained the death and rebirth experience. So I don't know why after that, but that's the nature of fear I suppose [00:33:27 - 00:33:32] So the question is it's a nut and bolt question it's [00:33:32 - 00:33:35] How does one proceed? [00:33:35 - 00:33:39] with the use of psychedelics after a long absence from it and [00:33:39 - 00:33:44] Not make the mistakes and not run into the walls [00:33:44 - 00:33:53] That I occasionally ran into and or and or deal with them you get around them [00:33:53 - 00:33:56] So forth and so on [00:33:56 - 00:34:04] Well, I think the best protection against unpleasant experiences on psychedelics is to do it with care and attention [00:34:04 - 00:34:06] in [00:34:06 - 00:34:08] environments that are safe and [00:34:08 - 00:34:11] low on sensory input [00:34:11 - 00:34:18] In other words, you don't take it and go to a crowded singles bar or even a rock and roll [00:34:18 - 00:34:25] Concert, I mean if you have to combine psychedelics with rock and roll do it with low doses [00:34:29 - 00:34:36] Well, this is the way to do it it isn't always going to be ecstatic but it's almost always guaranteed to be [00:34:36 - 00:34:42] Educational there's no way you can seal yourself off from shock [00:34:42 - 00:34:46] Because shock may be what you need [00:34:46 - 00:34:50] But you can [00:34:50 - 00:34:56] Attention to it. I mean fasting going into it [00:34:56 - 00:35:00] Cleaning yourself up creating a safe space [00:35:00 - 00:35:04] Not going to it. If you've just been highly [00:35:04 - 00:35:12] agitated by some emotional upheaval in your life and then take a long time to integrate it and [00:35:12 - 00:35:18] Think about it. It's basically in the best sense of the word a religious [00:35:18 - 00:35:22] activity and it's in creme the [00:35:24 - 00:35:28] Intellect or whatever it is that lies behind it is very [00:35:28 - 00:35:35] sensitive to your needs and your limits and unless you approach it with a cavalier [00:35:35 - 00:35:40] Attitude it will usually be very gentle with you [00:35:40 - 00:35:46] now this fear of death thing though is a hard thing to come to terms with because [00:35:48 - 00:35:55] You know, it's we are going to die it's scripted into the human experience culturally [00:35:55 - 00:35:59] there's a great deal of anxiety around this and [00:35:59 - 00:36:07] Basically, I think what one has to do is simply ride it out in terms of advice as to what you do [00:36:07 - 00:36:09] once you [00:36:09 - 00:36:12] Have are in the middle of an unpleasant [00:36:12 - 00:36:15] revelation [00:36:16 - 00:36:18] You can sing your way through that [00:36:18 - 00:36:24] You can smoke cannabis to shake up the pieces on the board [00:36:24 - 00:36:30] Or and you can just wait and put up with it [00:36:30 - 00:36:37] It's the real issue you see around fear on psychedelics is a surrender issue [00:36:37 - 00:36:42] The ego plays a trick on you because the ego begins to dissolve [00:36:43 - 00:36:46] under the influence of the psychedelic and [00:36:46 - 00:36:52] The ego sends you the message you are dying [00:36:52 - 00:36:59] This is its last most desperate ploy to halt what is happening [00:36:59 - 00:37:05] Because the ego is dying and to the degree that you identify with the ego [00:37:05 - 00:37:12] You'll be driven into a state of panic a joke about the Lone Ranger and Pato are [00:37:12 - 00:37:19] Surrounded by Indians and the Lone Ranger says well, it looks like the end of the trail [00:37:19 - 00:37:21] partner and Tonto says [00:37:21 - 00:37:30] Or it says it looks like the end of the trail for a partner and Tonto says what mean us pale face [00:37:30 - 00:37:37] Point and with it luck and it is in fact is all [00:37:38 - 00:37:45] And you can sing it will respond to being funky. I am always I am terrified [00:37:45 - 00:37:52] Psychedelic I never take them without a sense of sickening dread [00:37:52 - 00:37:56] Because I figure you know [00:37:56 - 00:38:04] I stand up in front of people and preach this stuff and if it wants to get me it will really get me good and [00:38:04 - 00:38:07] What I say to it when I take it I say [00:38:08 - 00:38:10] I I am [00:38:10 - 00:38:13] Surrendering I am surrendering myself to you completely [00:38:13 - 00:38:21] Do what you will with me, please don't hurt me and if you must kill me, please do it quickly [00:38:21 - 00:38:28] But I know people who have tried to [00:38:28 - 00:38:31] Order it around [00:38:31 - 00:38:37] Heavy male dominator type who wants to be information out of it and [00:38:37 - 00:38:43] My god, they have bad trip so terrifying that they never come back to it again [00:38:43 - 00:38:50] Because if this decides to turn on you it has resources that would make your head stand on them [00:38:50 - 00:38:53] So he does it gently [00:38:53 - 00:38:56] Resonantly and with a great deal of attention [00:38:56 - 00:39:13] I have some lessons that are given to me fresh, sealed, seven years ago on my birthday. I still have them. Would they still be any good? [00:39:13 - 00:39:15] Did you keep them in a dark cold place? [00:39:15 - 00:39:20] For two years and then I moved on to a boat and so but they're in a dark place [00:39:20 - 00:39:27] Well, the way to tell is if they are still if the seal was so good that they are still [00:39:27 - 00:39:32] Cracker dry as dry as a fresh saltine tractor [00:39:32 - 00:39:34] They're probably all right [00:39:34 - 00:39:40] But what tends to happen with mushrooms under the best feeling condition is they restore water [00:39:40 - 00:39:45] And if it's rubbery at all or even bendable [00:39:45 - 00:39:50] Then it's probably degraded and it's not any good anymore [00:39:50 - 00:39:59] Another thing let me say before I leave this if you're really curious about taking this into your life and you really want insurance [00:39:59 - 00:40:05] Against unpleasant experiences then learn to grow them [00:40:05 - 00:40:10] This catapults you into a whole different category of relationship to it [00:40:10 - 00:40:18] Because it gives special privileges to growers. It's like premier class on United Airlines [00:40:18 - 00:40:26] You get to board first and you get a wider seat and a better meal and a good movie [00:40:26 - 00:40:33] So if you can grow it, it will keep to the qualities that you must have to take it [00:40:33 - 00:40:44] Which are attention to detail, sensitivity to incremental changes, scheduling, cleanliness, so forth and so on [00:40:44 - 00:40:51] And will reform your character sufficiently that you can then probably take it without fear [00:40:51 - 00:40:53] Yes, this lady over here [00:40:53 - 00:40:58] To my children about this [00:40:58 - 00:41:02] I have an 11 year old daughter and a 14 year old son [00:41:02 - 00:41:06] I talk to them exactly the way I talk to you about it [00:41:06 - 00:41:10] I say there are good drugs and bad drugs [00:41:10 - 00:41:14] There's no such thing as the drug problem or the drug issue [00:41:14 - 00:41:22] Part of the way the establishment has muddied the water is by impoverishing our language about these things [00:41:22 - 00:41:28] Name a drug and I'll tell you what I think about it and how you should relate to it [00:41:28 - 00:41:34] I've seen people destroy themselves on cocaine, heroin, alcohol [00:41:34 - 00:41:43] I've seen people get nutty behind tobacco, religion, fascist politics, fundamentalism [00:41:43 - 00:41:50] And I say if you're going to take a drug, and if you want to take a drug, talk to me about it [00:41:50 - 00:41:55] If you want me to take it with you and I think it's a worthwhile drug, I will [00:41:55 - 00:41:59] If I don't think it's a worthwhile drug, I will tell you why [00:41:59 - 00:42:07] But it will be a real reason and you will find out that I'm not putting you on [00:42:07 - 00:42:10] And I haven't had any problem [00:42:10 - 00:42:18] I think we infantile, not only infantile lives, not only our children, but ourselves on this issue [00:42:18 - 00:42:23] Some drugs are bad, some drugs are good, some drugs are trivial [00:42:23 - 00:42:26] And then there are styles of taking drugs [00:42:26 - 00:42:32] The way I think psychedelics should be taken is that it's a kind of paradox [00:42:32 - 00:42:36] Rarely and at high doses [00:42:36 - 00:42:39] So that you never are comfortable [00:42:39 - 00:42:44] I'm not peddling comfort here, I'm peddling revelation [00:42:44 - 00:42:48] So you must take what are called heroic doses [00:42:48 - 00:42:53] More than you want to take, that's the correct dose [00:42:53 - 00:42:58] And less frequently than you want to take it, that's the correct timing [00:42:58 - 00:43:02] And then each time it will blow your mind to shreds [00:43:02 - 00:43:06] And positively feed into the rest of your life [00:43:06 - 00:43:11] The people who think people who take psychedelics are into escape [00:43:11 - 00:43:13] Don't know what they're talking about [00:43:13 - 00:43:18] Escape into what for crying out loud [00:43:18 - 00:43:24] The heavy narcotics is going on in front of the boot tube [00:43:24 - 00:43:29] And imbibing the daily newspaper and that kind of thing [00:43:29 - 00:43:35] So basically you've got to level with your kids ever more so now [00:43:35 - 00:43:40] Because lying has become official politics [00:43:40 - 00:43:46] I can't believe the crap I see on television in these anti-drug ads [00:43:46 - 00:43:51] Marijuana is the gateway drug to hard drugs [00:43:51 - 00:43:55] Tobacco and alcohol are the gateway drugs to hard drugs [00:43:55 - 00:43:58] Don't let anybody take it and so forth and so on [00:43:58 - 00:44:04] So it's a matter of informing ourselves and then informing our children [00:44:04 - 00:44:07] And then teaching them how to do these things [00:44:07 - 00:44:11] It's a lot like sexuality, when nobody mentioned it [00:44:11 - 00:44:17] You learned in the gutter and that usually meant that you got your girlfriend pregnant at age 19 [00:44:17 - 00:44:22] And had a shotgun marriage and lived a life of agony and repression [00:44:22 - 00:44:27] In the service of phony social values from that point on [00:44:27 - 00:44:29] We have to educate ourselves [00:44:29 - 00:44:36] Our sexuality, our psychedelic psychology, all the rest of it [00:44:36 - 00:44:45] Because we, you and I, not our children, have been tremendously infantilized by our government [00:44:45 - 00:44:49] Think about the "Just Say No" slogan [00:44:49 - 00:44:55] What that means is, don't think about it, don't inform yourself [00:44:55 - 00:45:00] Just say no, behave in other words like a media [00:45:00 - 00:45:03] This is not serviceable [00:45:03 - 00:45:10] And why ask why? [00:45:10 - 00:45:14] The empowering of institutional ignorance [00:45:14 - 00:45:17] It's unconscionable, this is the kind of argument [00:45:17 - 00:45:23] These people make such a strong argument for the legal regulation of advertising [00:45:23 - 00:45:26] That they would do well to step back [00:45:26 - 00:45:31] They may find themselves in a situation that they find very uncomfortable [00:45:31 - 00:45:40] Freedom of speech is not freedom to subvert the human enterprise [00:45:40 - 00:45:49] Freedom of speech is freedom to advocate and to argue and to respond to arguments [00:45:49 - 00:45:53] But not to stack the desk against truth and clear thinking [00:45:53 - 00:45:55] And relative truth [00:45:55 - 00:45:57] People are running for president [00:45:57 - 00:46:01] If nominated, I will not run [00:46:01 - 00:46:04] If elected, I will not serve [00:46:04 - 00:46:08] Hi, I'm a recovering alcoholic [00:46:08 - 00:46:12] I've been to Blythe and used psychedelics several times [00:46:12 - 00:46:15] Being human and not being able to do the stupid [00:46:15 - 00:46:18] I told this to my sponsor a couple weeks ago [00:46:18 - 00:46:20] And she's going with it [00:46:20 - 00:46:27] I don't feel that it's a problem or that it's taken away anything [00:46:27 - 00:46:35] But I'm having a hard time articulating to her why I don't see this as a problem [00:46:35 - 00:46:39] I was wondering if you could address how to reconcile the use of psychedelics [00:46:39 - 00:46:41] With the 12 step programs [00:46:41 - 00:46:47] I've heard that there are people doing this [00:46:47 - 00:46:51] I don't want to name names [00:46:51 - 00:46:56] But the top people in AA are entirely pro-psychedelic [00:46:56 - 00:46:59] They have told me this [00:46:59 - 00:47:09] Addiction, repetitious abuse of substances has very little to do with this [00:47:09 - 00:47:15] Where I differ with AA as it's generally presented [00:47:15 - 00:47:19] Is the idea that all things are to be looked at the same [00:47:19 - 00:47:21] Again, this Luddite approach [00:47:21 - 00:47:29] Where you simplify no matter how much damage it does to the complexity of the issue [00:47:29 - 00:47:35] A 12 step program is another form of infantilization [00:47:35 - 00:47:40] The whole idea of addiction as disease [00:47:40 - 00:47:45] Is a way of lifting responsibility off people [00:47:45 - 00:47:48] After all, if heroin addiction is a disease [00:47:48 - 00:47:51] Then it's just sort of like the flu or gonorrhea [00:47:51 - 00:47:54] It's something that's happened to you and it's very unfortunate [00:47:54 - 00:47:59] But you don't need to examine your own attitudes or psychology [00:47:59 - 00:48:01] This is in fact what we need to do [00:48:01 - 00:48:05] We have to take responsibility for our actions [00:48:05 - 00:48:12] I think the 12 step thing is way out of control at this point [00:48:12 - 00:48:15] Because there's a 12 step program for everything [00:48:15 - 00:48:20] I think responsible activity, whether you're talking about drugs [00:48:20 - 00:48:24] Or managing your finances or your sexuality [00:48:24 - 00:48:26] There's no substitute for it [00:48:26 - 00:48:32] And you can't have a set of rules that will be sufficiently sophisticated [00:48:32 - 00:48:36] To be a working substitute for intelligent decision making [00:48:36 - 00:48:42] A lot of times 12 step also has a huge diversion to it [00:48:42 - 00:48:49] I have a friend who's also been in the program for 5 or 6 years [00:48:49 - 00:48:54] And he's so convinced of the whole thing about the Bible and the whole prophecy [00:48:54 - 00:48:58] That he's basically an alcoholic still [00:48:58 - 00:49:00] He hasn't come to terms with the problems yet [00:49:00 - 00:49:02] At all [00:49:02 - 00:49:09] He's the same person with only one substance less than he had before [00:49:09 - 00:49:18] There's no substitute in politics, in psychedelics, in sexuality, in UFO hunting [00:49:18 - 00:49:25] There's no substitute for clear thinking and a reasonable knowledge of the rules of evidence [00:49:25 - 00:49:30] And if somebody's pushing some form of pie back at you [00:49:30 - 00:49:34] You need to have your craft detector out and working [00:49:34 - 00:49:37] Because there's a lot of crap out there [00:49:37 - 00:49:39] And some of it well intentioned [00:49:39 - 00:49:43] It can be well intentioned and still lead you down the primrose path [00:49:43 - 00:49:48] What do you feel about the new discovery about genetic age controlling? [00:49:48 - 00:49:54] Genetic designing, preventing age and prolonging aging [00:49:54 - 00:49:56] You mean life extension? [00:49:56 - 00:49:58] Yeah [00:49:58 - 00:50:01] I mean it's inevitable, what do you feel can happen with it? [00:50:01 - 00:50:05] Well so many things are happening at once [00:50:05 - 00:50:08] This is just part of the myth [00:50:08 - 00:50:11] I don't think we want to live forever [00:50:11 - 00:50:16] I mean somebody said death is nature's way of making room for next year's model [00:50:16 - 00:50:19] And there's something to be said for that [00:50:19 - 00:50:22] I really think that death is what it's all about [00:50:22 - 00:50:29] And that the body is the placenta of the soul [00:50:29 - 00:50:34] And the purpose of life in three dimensional space [00:50:34 - 00:50:40] Is to build up this invisible organ called the soul [00:50:40 - 00:50:47] So that it can make a clean flight back to its point of origin [00:50:47 - 00:50:51] Once severed from biology [00:50:51 - 00:50:54] I don't think we could cling to anything [00:50:54 - 00:50:56] Everything flows [00:50:56 - 00:51:03] This is here, let me give you the one thing I've learned out of life and drugs and everything else [00:51:03 - 00:51:07] It's a hard truth, it's an illuminating truth [00:51:07 - 00:51:12] Heard correctly it brings a smile to your lips and a tear to your eye [00:51:12 - 00:51:14] Nothing lasts [00:51:14 - 00:51:17] Nothing lasts [00:51:17 - 00:51:21] There are no exceptions to this [00:51:21 - 00:51:26] Your relationship to your lover does not last [00:51:26 - 00:51:30] The hatred of your enemy does not last [00:51:30 - 00:51:35] The wonderful home you worked so hard to create, it doesn't last [00:51:35 - 00:51:38] Your body doesn't last [00:51:38 - 00:51:40] Nothing lasts [00:51:40 - 00:51:46] Everything is in the process of being transformed and replaced by something else [00:51:46 - 00:51:50] You have to embrace that [00:51:50 - 00:51:57] Or life will disappoint you, embitter you, and tear you to pieces [00:51:57 - 00:52:01] I like to make an analogy to surfing [00:52:01 - 00:52:08] The uninformed person thinks that when you enter the sea [00:52:08 - 00:52:11] You're safe near the shore [00:52:11 - 00:52:14] You're not safe near the shore [00:52:14 - 00:52:19] That's where the waves are breaking and creating the white water and the undercoat [00:52:19 - 00:52:25] All surfers know that you have to swim out to where the waves are forming cleanly [00:52:25 - 00:52:27] In deep water [00:52:27 - 00:52:31] And then you can catch the wave and ride it into the beach [00:52:31 - 00:52:36] But if you hold to the shore [00:52:36 - 00:52:41] You'll just be beaten to death in an incoming surf [00:52:41 - 00:52:45] That could be the end of the workshop as far as I'm concerned [00:52:45 - 00:52:48] That's how it works [00:52:48 - 00:52:51] How do you explain that clear acceptance for young men? [00:52:51 - 00:52:54] Why don't some of these people apply it? Why doesn't the one for long life? [00:52:54 - 00:53:02] Well, because science has so thoroughly convinced us that the yawning grave is the end of the story [00:53:02 - 00:53:09] It's presented as the absolute terminus of your existence [00:53:09 - 00:53:13] When in fact, I believe, I think I said this last night [00:53:13 - 00:53:16] This is as dead as you can get [00:53:16 - 00:53:21] So the challenge is not how to face death [00:53:21 - 00:53:26] The challenge is how to come to terms gracefully with the prospect of eternity [00:53:26 - 00:53:32] The only exception that nothing ever lasts is maybe the spirit itself [00:53:32 - 00:53:34] Maybe that's the only thing that is eternal [00:53:34 - 00:53:36] But it is constantly transforming [00:53:36 - 00:53:46] But on the thesis level of the pure spirit, that is probably something that has moved through all of time, beyond time [00:53:46 - 00:53:48] Well, it's outside of time [00:53:48 - 00:53:53] Yes, you can exit time and then you exist in eternity [00:53:53 - 00:53:57] What is reincarnation? [00:53:57 - 00:53:59] Reincarnation? [00:53:59 - 00:54:06] Again, the evidence is inconclusive [00:54:06 - 00:54:10] There is some evidence, you know, stories, we all know them [00:54:10 - 00:54:19] But the idea that it happens to everyone seems an unnecessary hypothesis based on the idea that it happened to some people [00:54:19 - 00:54:23] I would like to think that we move on [00:54:23 - 00:54:30] I would like to think that there is a kind of ascent through existence [00:54:30 - 00:54:37] I'm open to the possibility of reincarnation, but again, underwhelmed by the evidence [00:54:37 - 00:54:42] See, maybe I could say a little bit about my own psychology [00:54:42 - 00:54:46] Because I always get into these wrangles with people [00:54:46 - 00:54:52] I'm sort of presented as a person on the fringe of the new age or something like that [00:54:52 - 00:54:56] I don't consider myself a new age at all [00:54:56 - 00:55:09] I got where I am through doubt, skepticism, lack of belief, hard-headed reason [00:55:09 - 00:55:20] And I've gotten, I believe, further into weirdness than the cannelers, the people who are talking to the UFOs and all the rest of them [00:55:20 - 00:55:23] They're such pushovers [00:55:23 - 00:55:32] I mean, the first voice that comes along from the invisible world and they're ready to sign on to whatever gibberish is being put [00:55:32 - 00:55:37] I think you can be a rationalist, I think you can demand hard evidence [00:55:37 - 00:55:43] And still, this will not push magic out of your world [00:55:43 - 00:55:51] Real magic doesn't demand DEI believers offering sacrifice at its altar [00:55:51 - 00:55:57] Real magic is real, it is just perspective, not believers [00:55:57 - 00:56:06] So the technique is not to stay in your comfortable cultural situation [00:56:06 - 00:56:12] And believe the first weird rap that comes down the pipe, or the second, or the third [00:56:12 - 00:56:24] The way to do it is to be hard-headed, rational, demanding, but explore edges, push the edges [00:56:24 - 00:56:29] And also within the world [00:56:29 - 00:56:36] So if you hear that someone in India can raise the dead, fly to India [00:56:36 - 00:56:42] Put yourself in front of them and say, "Would you please raise the dead?" [00:56:42 - 00:56:54] And if they say, "Oh, I only do it on Tuesdays," or "Come back in April," or "You're not ready," then you just put them in the fraud column [00:56:54 - 00:57:02] And this has always worked for me, I just say, "You say you've got the whammy, what can you show me?" [00:57:02 - 00:57:07] I went to India, but don't get me started [00:57:07 - 00:57:16] It is a spiritual bargain basement of the sleaziest sort [00:57:16 - 00:57:22] I went to South America with the same question, "What can you show me?" [00:57:22 - 00:57:28] And the guy said, "Well, let's sharpen our machetes and we'll go out here a half a mile into the forest [00:57:28 - 00:57:34] And we'll cut some of this vine and we'll bring it back and brew it up and I'll show you what I can show you" [00:57:34 - 00:57:45] None of this "kiss my feet, sleep up around the ashram ten years, memorize fifty thousand lines of the Advaita Tantra Sutra" or that kind of malarkey [00:57:45 - 00:57:50] If there's any assumption of hierarchy, head for the door [00:57:50 - 00:57:58] If somebody's telling you that you're little and they're up, head for the door, it's a con of some sort [00:57:58 - 00:58:01] It's a horrible, horrible con [00:58:01 - 00:58:08] The real stuff is available to those who ask for it [00:58:08 - 00:58:12] You don't have to prove yourself, asking is sufficient [00:58:12 - 00:58:16] And none of these scams can compete with psychedelics [00:58:16 - 00:58:26] That's why they invade against it so furiously and tell you that it'll rend holes in your aura and all the rest of the malarkey that is brought against it [00:58:26 - 00:58:28] I mean, give me a break [00:58:28 - 00:58:38] So the thing to do is explore edges, push hard, and then use your ordinary good sense to tell shit from trinola [00:58:38 - 00:58:56] And you will move much faster than the people who are worshiping at the feet of that BBI beezle who set himself up with a non-profit foundation and a line of bunk that's being published by the devoted slaves and peddled in airports or whatever [00:58:56 - 00:59:00] I mean, that's just horrible, all that stuff, horrible [00:59:00 - 00:59:10] In response to something that was said earlier, I've been fascinated with psychedelics since my first experience when I was 17 [00:59:10 - 00:59:20] And I have struggled with finding out about the mechanics of painting and growing mushrooms [00:59:20 - 00:59:26] And over the last couple of years I've finally met with relative success [00:59:26 - 00:59:33] And I'd just like to offer, if there's anybody who's sincerely, you know, I mean it's a frustrating process when you first start [00:59:33 - 00:59:39] If there's anybody that, you know, is seriously interested, I'd be glad to give them a little help [00:59:39 - 00:59:43] This is an incredibly generous offer [00:59:43 - 00:59:49] It's very hard to learn to grow mushrooms unless someone shows you how [00:59:49 - 00:59:59] My book that I wrote with my brother is the best we could do, but it's like reading the instructions for putting together an electric train or something, you know [00:59:59 - 01:00:03] If somebody would just show you, it becomes transparent [01:00:03 - 01:00:07] So, nobody has ever said this at any workshop I've ever been [01:00:07 - 01:00:12] If you're interested, do not let this gentleman slip through your fingers [01:00:12 - 01:00:22] This is my book that's available, I'm trying to think of the guy's name, it's called The Mushroom Cultivator [01:00:22 - 01:00:24] By Paul Stamets [01:00:24 - 01:00:32] But even at that, there's no substitute for somebody at your elbow showing you how to do it [01:00:32 - 01:00:38] Thank you for twisting me off the anti-guru tirade [01:00:38 - 01:00:48] Have you ever met any of your fellows from your company here, from your tradition, and so on? [01:00:48 - 01:00:50] Respect? [01:00:50 - 01:00:53] Well, I make a differentiation [01:00:53 - 01:01:00] I'm not saying that the Hindu tradition or the yogic tradition is phony [01:01:00 - 01:01:06] I'm saying that we misconstrue its intent [01:01:06 - 01:01:19] What these traditional teachings deliver, if they are working right, is they deliver wisdom about how to live [01:01:19 - 01:01:23] That's what a great guru can teach you [01:01:23 - 01:01:26] And that's not what I'm trying to teach you [01:01:26 - 01:01:32] We're talking here about using psychedelics to blow ourselves into another dimension [01:01:32 - 01:01:41] This goes to the question hours ago about the role of psychedelics in the spiritual program of advancement [01:01:41 - 01:01:47] I don't claim that you will become a spiritually advanced person [01:01:47 - 01:01:50] I don't know what a spiritually advanced person is [01:01:50 - 01:02:02] What I claim is that you will contact a dimension of experience inaccessible by any other means if you will perceive it [01:02:02 - 01:02:09] And then you may decide that that's fine, you've verified that everything I said is true or true enough [01:02:09 - 01:02:14] And now you don't ever want to do that again and go on with your life [01:02:14 - 01:02:17] Or you may be able to make some good of it [01:02:17 - 01:02:24] It is no substitute for ethical activity or moral sensitivity [01:02:24 - 01:02:28] It is no substitute for moral sensitivity [01:02:28 - 01:02:35] Moral sensitivity, you don't cultivate in silent darkness in your bedroom with the telephone unplugged [01:02:35 - 01:02:46] Moral sensitivity is visit the sickened in prison, heal the sick, bury the dead, instruct the ignorant [01:02:46 - 01:02:50] That's what moral sensitivity is about and people don't want to hear that [01:02:50 - 01:02:54] They want to go off and worship at the feet of some guru [01:02:54 - 01:02:58] What could that possibly have to do with moral advancement? [01:02:58 - 01:03:03] Moral advancement is care for your fellow human beings, for crying out loud [01:03:03 - 01:03:09] It's far more Mother Teresa than Ramana Maharshi as far as I'm concerned [01:03:09 - 01:03:13] Not to knock Ramana Maharshi, but you know [01:03:13 - 01:03:20] You get this in the fascination with chauvinism in the New Age [01:03:20 - 01:03:26] Chauvinism in the aboriginal context is primarily about curing the sick [01:03:26 - 01:03:34] That's what it's about, not these wild, grandiose technicolor scenarios [01:03:34 - 01:03:41] My God, you can read 14,000 pages of Carlos Castaneda and nobody ever cures anybody of anything [01:03:41 - 01:03:45] It's all happening in this other dimension [01:03:45 - 01:03:50] So it all comes down to pretty nitty-gritty hands on here and now stuff [01:03:50 - 01:03:51] Yes? [01:03:51 - 01:03:59] I noticed that after a hallucinogenic activity and you're by yourself or you're seen in your in-nature [01:03:59 - 01:04:08] A sort of empathetic consciousness happens to where you're more in-king with the surroundings, the animals and the plants [01:04:08 - 01:04:15] As though they could inter-speak to your consciousness and you can sort of with them [01:04:15 - 01:04:23] I wonder if anyone else experiences that or if it's derived from just being mushrooms and not the other one [01:04:23 - 01:04:29] It seems like a more organic, like a meshing of information that's coherent in everything that exists [01:04:29 - 01:04:31] That's alive that you tap into [01:04:31 - 01:04:35] That feeds into you also and you affect the surroundings somewhat [01:04:35 - 01:04:39] The animals and everything sort of are affected by your presence in being there [01:04:39 - 01:04:46] Well, this is what I call this re-establishing of the relationship to the dying mind [01:04:46 - 01:04:49] This is what the ego blocks us from [01:04:49 - 01:05:00] Is this relationship to nature as though it were a kind of partner and a companion [01:05:00 - 01:05:08] The whole problem with the modern situation, earlier I defined it as ego [01:05:08 - 01:05:12] Here's then a behavioral definition of it [01:05:12 - 01:05:17] Our problem is that we cannot feel the consequences of what we're doing [01:05:17 - 01:05:24] We can talk about the spread of AIDS, the ozone hole, the toxification of the ocean [01:05:24 - 01:05:36] But if we could emotionally connect with it and feel, we would have the political reformation we're waiting for later this evening [01:05:36 - 01:05:46] And what you're talking about I think is the feeling that comes when nature is suddenly perceived to be vibrant, alive [01:05:46 - 01:05:52] Full of an intent to communicate and caring of humanity [01:05:52 - 01:05:55] Women I think are closer to this than men [01:05:55 - 01:05:59] But in the context of our civilization we're also screwed up [01:05:59 - 01:06:04] That comparing the differences between men and women in regard to that hardly matters [01:06:04 - 01:06:08] We have to re-empower our emotions [01:06:08 - 01:06:15] We've gone way out of line in terms of the rational mind [01:06:15 - 01:06:23] We have completely deadened our emotional receptors to the consequences of what we're doing [01:06:23 - 01:06:33] Yes, there's one thing you mentioned earlier about conspiracy theories [01:06:33 - 01:06:35] And not describing that directly [01:06:35 - 01:06:37] I'm sorry I didn't hear the last [01:06:37 - 01:06:41] You had mentioned about conspiracy theory and not describing it directly as a theory [01:06:41 - 01:06:50] And I can appreciate that, but I think we have to look at it in more detail and maybe from some other angle to get more out of that [01:06:50 - 01:06:53] Maybe the terminology doesn't fit [01:06:53 - 01:07:03] But in the 60s, having lived through that era, we I think really touched on what democracy could be [01:07:03 - 01:07:09] It really was a different relationship between people for a short period of time [01:07:09 - 01:07:13] And I remember how it evolved as the 60s went on and the 70s came [01:07:13 - 01:07:18] And what we've all experienced to the 70s into the 80s and now the 90s [01:07:18 - 01:07:24] I think it's been a very dramatic change [01:07:24 - 01:07:29] I think that to describe that as happenstance would be folly [01:07:29 - 01:07:36] To say completely that the CIA, as an example, although I have no information and don't even want to have it [01:07:36 - 01:07:40] Tested something and then let it go because it didn't fit their needs completely [01:07:40 - 01:07:42] May not be the whole story [01:07:42 - 01:07:47] For example, you talked about drugs, natural especially [01:07:47 - 01:07:52] But drugs in general can be inhabited as time goes on by those who experience it [01:07:52 - 01:08:00] And let's say for example, as a theory, that those who experienced that democracy early in the 60s [01:08:00 - 01:08:04] Were inhibited from further experiencing [01:08:04 - 01:08:11] Were disassociated from it by safe houses, by whatever systems were developed [01:08:11 - 01:08:16] Such that those drugs could be inhabited in a different way over a period of time [01:08:16 - 01:08:23] Rather than resulting in democracy, perhaps they result in a brave new world or some system of control [01:08:23 - 01:08:29] It seems to me like there may be a theocracy rather than a democracy that's ruling [01:08:29 - 01:08:32] And that there may be a thought process that is guiding [01:08:32 - 01:08:36] And one of the reasons we see these, when we look inside of these institutions [01:08:36 - 01:08:43] Like the Center for Disease Control, the National Institutes of Health, the White House [01:08:43 - 01:08:48] One of the reasons we see these bungly people is because those are the only people who really can fill these roles [01:08:48 - 01:08:54] Not because there is nothing of intelligence behind that's guiding them [01:08:54 - 01:08:58] And when I say intelligence I don't mean positive intelligence [01:08:58 - 01:09:05] So I feel like we have to, or it would be helpful for us to keep in touch with the idea of something going on [01:09:05 - 01:09:07] Something guiding and counter guiding [01:09:07 - 01:09:14] As you said about evolution earlier, that evolution really is the living sort of goal [01:09:14 - 01:09:21] I think that those who plan for the next 500 years in the future, and there are people that do that [01:09:21 - 01:09:25] And those that may have a theocracy may see that goal and not want that [01:09:25 - 01:09:31] They may not want to freeze the use of materials on this planet to flow freely between all people [01:09:31 - 01:09:34] Once that happens you have whatever democracy truly is [01:09:34 - 01:09:37] Even that would transform to a new world, a new name [01:09:37 - 01:09:40] So I feel there is something going on [01:09:40 - 01:09:45] I feel that psychedelics do allow one to penetrate through the veils that are created [01:09:45 - 01:09:47] I think that's why they are detrimental [01:09:47 - 01:09:50] That's why they are a quote unquote controlled substance [01:09:50 - 01:09:54] You know in the medical schools and in the research field [01:09:54 - 01:09:59] The reason there is so much cowardice and fear is because people lose their jobs [01:09:59 - 01:10:01] Literally, they don't even know why they lost them [01:10:01 - 01:10:06] If you go to the UCLA Medical School Library and read in some of the more technical journals [01:10:06 - 01:10:11] On synthesis and other areas related, you will find in the corners of the book [01:10:11 - 01:10:14] People's notes about what their experiences were [01:10:14 - 01:10:18] That's the source of information, that's where it's being spread, it's the only channel open [01:10:18 - 01:10:22] There are people all across this nation and elsewhere trying to do things [01:10:22 - 01:10:25] They have no avenue and if they step out they are cut off [01:10:25 - 01:10:29] Same way as in cancer therapy or same way as in other areas [01:10:29 - 01:10:32] Where this powerful dynamic life that we all should emerge [01:10:32 - 01:10:36] I think it's the theocracy behind it, something that's known [01:10:36 - 01:10:38] Slide point to present [01:10:38 - 01:10:45] Well I think there are a lot of groups let's say [01:10:45 - 01:10:49] That aspire to control society [01:10:49 - 01:10:52] I just don't think anybody is succeeding [01:10:52 - 01:10:58] I don't think the world we're living in is the result of anybody's conscious agenda [01:10:58 - 01:11:01] Take LSD for example [01:11:01 - 01:11:04] And again I always go back to Occam's razor [01:11:04 - 01:11:10] The simplest explanation for what happened to the psychedelic revolution in the 60's [01:11:10 - 01:11:14] Is that it self-corrupted itself [01:11:14 - 01:11:17] It didn't require the CIA to ruin it [01:11:17 - 01:11:24] When you have a situation where a graduate student in biochemistry [01:11:24 - 01:11:27] And his roommate with a trust fund [01:11:27 - 01:11:31] Can get together and pool their money and intelligence [01:11:31 - 01:11:39] And over a long weekend produce 5 or 10 million hits of LSD in a small apartment [01:11:39 - 01:11:44] What you are going to get out of that is criminal syndicalism [01:11:44 - 01:11:49] Parametral organizations for the purposes of making money [01:11:49 - 01:11:52] And that is clearly what destroyed LSD [01:11:52 - 01:11:54] I mean I lived through it [01:11:54 - 01:11:59] The San Francisco Oracle and people like that were pleading [01:11:59 - 01:12:04] Don't sell acid, give it away, give it away [01:12:04 - 01:12:07] As long as you give it away it will be cured [01:12:07 - 01:12:10] And some people weren't interested in enlightenment [01:12:10 - 01:12:15] Some people wanted houses in the hills and Maserati [01:12:15 - 01:12:20] So it is our own nature that conspires against us [01:12:20 - 01:12:23] Not the dreams of the CIA [01:12:23 - 01:12:27] I mean don't forget George Bush once ran the CIA for God's sake [01:12:27 - 01:12:32] That's the level of competence that that organization gets together [01:12:32 - 01:12:40] That's the first real LSD and LSD behind that because I don't think we are that intelligent [01:12:40 - 01:12:43] So there doesn't even need to be intelligence that exists [01:12:43 - 01:12:47] But why hypothesize that if there is no evidence for it [01:12:47 - 01:12:50] It doesn't make any sense but there were some people who set up [01:12:50 - 01:12:52] I don't think they were just set up [01:12:52 - 01:12:56] The people kept it and the obvious facts were that it was open to market [01:12:56 - 01:12:58] That something happened there [01:12:58 - 01:13:01] Well people decided they wanted to make money on it [01:13:01 - 01:13:04] And they built up new and stronger and longer lasting psychedelics [01:13:04 - 01:13:11] And it was a constant move away from what psychedelics experienced [01:13:11 - 01:13:16] It became very destructive and I don't think it was primarily financial [01:13:16 - 01:13:18] What was it primarily? [01:13:18 - 01:13:19] Control [01:13:19 - 01:13:21] Control of what? [01:13:21 - 01:13:28] Well as you would yourself would say if something went longer [01:13:28 - 01:13:33] You would say that you would get away with it all [01:13:33 - 01:13:44] But these things were distributed in micro cultures relative to the global situation [01:13:44 - 01:13:53] I mean I don't deny that there are people who seek to subvert the natural development of the social agenda [01:13:53 - 01:13:58] I just think that it's an impossible proposition [01:13:58 - 01:14:06] I mean the real conspiracies are the Catholic Church, the World Bank, the IMF [01:14:06 - 01:14:09] And they don't think of themselves as conspirators [01:14:09 - 01:14:13] They think of themselves as thousand year old organizations [01:14:13 - 01:14:16] Shepherds, not in the case of the IMF [01:14:16 - 01:14:23] There are people in the organizations that are allowed to receive grant money to do what they're supposed to do [01:14:23 - 01:14:24] They don't have the time to do it [01:14:24 - 01:14:25] They what? [01:14:25 - 01:14:26] They don't have the time [01:14:26 - 01:14:29] Oh they don't, they take the time they're allowed to do it [01:14:29 - 01:14:38] Those of us that listen to KGFK in the middle of the night on Wednesday night [01:14:38 - 01:14:43] Get the full Lowe's conspiracy story from Dave Emery [01:14:43 - 01:14:53] And I think actually there's a lot to be listened to very carefully in terms of the evidence that he has gathered about this [01:14:53 - 01:14:59] But don't you think Richard that even if we could almost say even if all these conspiracies exist [01:14:59 - 01:15:04] We're hearing about so many that they must be self counseling [01:15:04 - 01:15:09] Well it's coming to quite this moment in terms of the massive cover up [01:15:09 - 01:15:13] Versus the keep uncovering this and uncovering that [01:15:13 - 01:15:17] And they just can't keep their fingers on every part of the dice [01:15:17 - 01:15:24] Yeah I think running a world controlling conspiracy must be a fairly frustrating enterprise these days [01:15:24 - 01:15:27] I'm getting the high signs from the papers [01:15:27 - 01:15:33] Listen I just want to speak to this lady's concern about LSD [01:15:33 - 01:15:41] LSD was used in the 60's for alcoholic rehabilitation very successfully [01:15:41 - 01:15:42] Single doses [01:15:42 - 01:15:49] And only when the government put its hand, its thumb on LSD research was this stopped [01:15:49 - 01:15:54] But they had tremendous success with LSD in recovering alcoholics [01:15:54 - 01:15:59] In straight psychiatric hospitals [01:15:59 - 01:16:01] So there is that evidence out there [01:16:01 - 01:16:10] There has to be an overcoming of the institutionalized fear that is exported into the society [01:16:10 - 01:16:17] The news is the psychedelic dimension represents a new world [01:16:17 - 01:16:25] And you know we can go into it and enslave the Indians or we can go into it and save our souls [01:16:25 - 01:16:34] And it's going to be guided and controlled I think by the informed decisions of rational individuals [01:16:34 - 01:16:42] And it's up to each and every one of us to make sure that we fall into that category [01:16:42 - 01:16:46] This is the best kept secret on this planet [01:16:46 - 01:16:52] It is your birthright, as much your birthright as the sexual experience [01:16:52 - 01:16:58] But more easily evaded, more easily distorted [01:16:58 - 01:17:05] And so there is a certain responsibility on each of us to try and educate and inform ourselves [01:17:05 - 01:17:09] And then integrate it into our lives [01:17:09 - 01:17:17] We no more know what it's for than we know what electricity or wind is for [01:17:17 - 01:17:21] It can be used for all kinds of things [01:17:21 - 01:17:33] It can be used to distort human nature or to unfold it into some kind of incredible and amazing future [01:17:33 - 01:17:38] These things used to be called consciousness expanding drugs [01:17:38 - 01:17:43] Well now suppose for a moment that that were actually true, that that's what they do [01:17:43 - 01:17:55] If consciousness does not loom large as a part of the human future, then what kind of future is it going to be? [01:17:55 - 01:18:06] If these things really empower consciousness, self-reflection, boundary dissolution, and creative ideation [01:18:06 - 01:18:16] Then we must fully explore them, because we are on the brink of extinction because of a failure of creativity [01:18:16 - 01:18:25] A failure to creatively meet the challenges that history, our own history, has created for ourselves [01:18:25 - 01:18:28] We have to claim our birthright [01:18:28 - 01:18:35] Nobody can take this away from you any more than they can take away your right to have sex or breathe air [01:18:35 - 01:18:37] Or drink water [01:18:37 - 01:18:45] And anybody who tells you that this is an item up for social manipulation and control [01:18:45 - 01:18:56] Is somehow serving a dominator agenda that diminishes and degrades every single member of the human family [01:18:56 - 01:18:58] It is a true mystery [01:18:58 - 01:19:03] It's a doorway out of the dead end of Western history [01:19:03 - 01:19:11] It's the return path backward to the shamanic paradise that existed before history [01:19:11 - 01:19:15] If you don't believe what I'm saying, do the rational thing [01:19:15 - 01:19:18] Check it out [01:19:18 - 01:19:20] Thank you very much [01:19:20 - 01:19:22] Thank you [01:19:22 - 01:19:24] Thank you Karen [01:19:24 - 01:19:48] [no audio]