[00:00:00 - 00:00:07]	 Necklace of primordial mind that is every one of these lives although appearing separate was part was arising
[00:00:07 - 00:00:14]	 From primordial mind it was it was apparently separate life, but in but in this dream kind vista
[00:00:14 - 00:00:18]	 It wasn't separate there was only one life. There was only one mind
[00:00:18 - 00:00:24]	 There was only there was only this one primordial being and it put on different clothes from time to time in the apparent world
[00:00:24 - 00:00:27]	 so this is the way that
[00:00:28 - 00:00:34]	 The idea of a deeper anamnesis is not just to go like to like to like but to go to source
[00:00:34 - 00:00:39]	 You think when people play the past life game. I was a this I was a that you were this
[00:00:39 - 00:00:43]	 Very rarely do they go back to source and that's the root
[00:00:43 - 00:00:50]	 the final anamnesis is back to source to emptiness itself to source to God to overself whatever you want to call it and
[00:00:50 - 00:00:53]	 this is
[00:00:53 - 00:01:01]	 Anamnesis depth as opposed to and it's a type of cross-state retention to source as opposed to associative
[00:01:01 - 00:01:08]	 Cross-state retention extended wise so you you go to death and you go to breath now
[00:01:08 - 00:01:13]	 These two things will trigger each other off. You see what I constantly go through my head and
[00:01:13 - 00:01:20]	 I'll look at things in breath the mind will go did it I this relates to this and this relates to this and this relates
[00:01:20 - 00:01:24]	 to this it always happens funny enough when I many times when I'm walking by a
[00:01:24 - 00:01:27]	 big apartment building in the city or something you look at a
[00:01:27 - 00:01:33]	 at a room a window an arbitrary window and you know that somewhere in that apartment a drama is going on a life drama is
[00:01:33 - 00:01:37]	 Going on in that apartment and you realize in that apartment. There's another drama in this apartment
[00:01:37 - 00:01:45]	 This apartment every one of the dozens millions of dramas going on and you speed up the mind a billion fold and to all the dramas
[00:01:45 - 00:01:46]	 That are going on the face of the earth
[00:01:46 - 00:01:52]	 And so you go like that and you put them then you collapse the wavefront as it were and so just an instant
[00:01:52 - 00:01:56]	 And you realize that yes, they're all going on, but it's all now as well
[00:01:56 - 00:01:58]	 It's not just the extension
[00:01:58 - 00:02:04]	 but it's the collapse of the extension into the primordial moment and it's that oscillation between the
[00:02:04 - 00:02:06]	 extension of
[00:02:06 - 00:02:13]	 This is glad glass bead that game type of thinking and you go on you see could go on forever and infinity
[00:02:13 - 00:02:18]	 but you have to go back to its source as well, which stops everything in a moment and
[00:02:18 - 00:02:24]	 Then there's this vast sense of interrelatedness and these two things have to properly
[00:02:24 - 00:02:31]	 Interact with each other and a kind of a mystical framework if you get stuck just on the proliferation you go crazy
[00:02:31 - 00:02:35]	 If you get stuck just on the primordial now
[00:02:35 - 00:02:39]	 You'll be your kind of this is what they call dead void heretics and the Zen Zen tradition
[00:02:39 - 00:02:44]	 You just become I'm deeply in the void don't bother me, you know, just leave me alone and let me sit
[00:02:44 - 00:02:47]	 So you have to be able to go from these two kind of states
[00:02:47 - 00:02:51]	 And that's that dance that oscillation which is really key
[00:02:51 - 00:02:54]	 now other ways in which we
[00:02:54 - 00:03:01]	 Tend to miss out on prostate retention and on 20th century life
[00:03:01 - 00:03:04]	 It's the idea of the elimination of rites of passage
[00:03:04 - 00:03:08]	 any types of rites of passage from
[00:03:09 - 00:03:16]	 Our childhood to adolescence adolescence to manhood. I mean the vestiges that we have left don't really do the job in our culture
[00:03:16 - 00:03:20]	 Right to passage or more seen on what kind of salary you're getting
[00:03:20 - 00:03:27]	 You know that this is a big right right of passage marriage on the whole most many so many marriages aren't conscious marriages
[00:03:27 - 00:03:33]	 So many children I mentioned this to Jill yesterday so many children that are born maybe are not consciously, you know
[00:03:33 - 00:03:36]	 Looked at it as a process of birth
[00:03:37 - 00:03:43]	 But rite of passage is a way of going from one state to another state and if you don't have that awareness built into your
[00:03:43 - 00:03:49]	 Culture you lose you lose the dissipative cycle. You lose the big-mind picture at that point
[00:03:49 - 00:03:52]	 so
[00:03:52 - 00:03:54]	 That is an important thing
[00:03:54 - 00:03:59]	 another aspect about prostate retention is the idea of
[00:03:59 - 00:04:05]	 That transitions that's why I said reversal they encourage prostate retention
[00:04:07 - 00:04:12]	 The solstices and the equinoxes for example are points of temporal transition from
[00:04:12 - 00:04:15]	 balances of night and darkness and
[00:04:15 - 00:04:17]	 these points of transition
[00:04:17 - 00:04:25]	 are ideal times to plant a seed in in in the mall in in the mind to say remember now at this
[00:04:25 - 00:04:31]	 Axis of time this nexus of time really remember what you're all about in the cycle
[00:04:31 - 00:04:38]	 Because every solstice and equinox is a point on the dissipative cycle of the year and you should use these axis points these kind of
[00:04:38 - 00:04:41]	 focal points as points to plant
[00:04:41 - 00:04:44]	 suggestions for
[00:04:44 - 00:04:48]	 integration into the environment to make the environment conscious as it were
[00:04:48 - 00:04:57]	 The what we have to become then in a sense is what I would call psychic amphibians
[00:04:57 - 00:05:02]	 You have to be an amphibian is an animal or a being that can go from water to land
[00:05:02 - 00:05:08]	 It's a cross-state animal you see so we have to become kind of psychic amphibians in a sense
[00:05:08 - 00:05:14]	 And this will really begin to get us into the the mode of prostate retention
[00:05:14 - 00:05:17]	 prostate retention would
[00:05:17 - 00:05:20]	 if taught in this kind of way would have a
[00:05:20 - 00:05:24]	 tremendous kind of
[00:05:24 - 00:05:29]	 Revolution in education which I want to mention at the very end here now one last thing on
[00:05:29 - 00:05:31]	 cross-state retention
[00:05:31 - 00:05:33]	 if the
[00:05:33 - 00:05:35]	 actually - there is the
[00:05:35 - 00:05:40]	 First of all the idea of a young stereo synchronicity
[00:05:40 - 00:05:46]	 That's very interesting. He says in synchronicity. Well, he says we have two types of
[00:05:46 - 00:05:52]	 temporal events one occurs on a casual chain causal
[00:05:53 - 00:05:55]	 sequential change
[00:05:55 - 00:06:02]	 This happens and as a consequence this happens and as a consequence this happens primary secondary tertiary effects
[00:06:02 - 00:06:08]	 Then he says on the other hand there may be a kind of meaningful cross connection
[00:06:08 - 00:06:14]	 Now if this from this idea of cross connection that incidentally that he borrowed from Schopenhauer
[00:06:14 - 00:06:22]	 From an essay called on the apparent design in the fate of the individual and interesting analogy there Schopenhauer
[00:06:23 - 00:06:30]	 Took a world globe model and he took the meridian of the model to be the causal chains of event
[00:06:30 - 00:06:36]	 But the parallels he said these were the cross connections that happened in life
[00:06:36 - 00:06:40]	 And this is what how young built his theory of synchronicity from this
[00:06:40 - 00:06:42]	 geographical analogy of Schopenhauer
[00:06:42 - 00:06:48]	 Now it's interesting that synchronicity
[00:06:49 - 00:06:54]	 Means the simultaneous occurrence of the psychic state an internal psychic state and a corresponding
[00:06:54 - 00:07:00]	 External event occurs which kind of mirrors or cross connects to this state
[00:07:00 - 00:07:07]	 You see so any idea of synchronicity we get not a we don't get a temporal density
[00:07:07 - 00:07:12]	 we get a temporal fluidity begins to occur at this time and
[00:07:13 - 00:07:19]	 This is where magical thinking is born. This is where all the magical memory systems like
[00:07:19 - 00:07:23]	 Bruno's magical memory system take their heart out this thing the
[00:07:23 - 00:07:30]	 This kind of correspondence between all these symbolic objects and the corresponding psychic states that go with them
[00:07:30 - 00:07:34]	 Now the
[00:07:34 - 00:07:37]	 last method of
[00:07:37 - 00:07:40]	 In this framework all aspects of divination
[00:07:42 - 00:07:44]	 Divination is like
[00:07:44 - 00:07:47]	 throwing the each in
[00:07:47 - 00:07:51]	 Reading coffee leaves throwing coca leaves reading the oracle bones
[00:07:51 - 00:07:57]	 Looking at clouds reading the flight of birds. These are all processes of divination
[00:07:57 - 00:08:02]	 Divination means to become godly or have a godly insight a godly knowledge into something
[00:08:02 - 00:08:05]	 now
[00:08:05 - 00:08:10]	 The essence of all divination is to connect the unconscious to the conscious
[00:08:11 - 00:08:14]	 It is a cross state bridge
[00:08:14 - 00:08:21]	 That's what it's about when you divine something so that you throw a moan at the bet in tradition you you throw the cards you
[00:08:21 - 00:08:24]	 Read the tarot whatever it is. It's a cross state
[00:08:24 - 00:08:26]	 You're using these symbols
[00:08:26 - 00:08:32]	 You're using these this as a medium as it were to go from the unconscious to the conscious and to do
[00:08:32 - 00:08:35]	 facilitate this kind of cross state communication and
[00:08:35 - 00:08:40]	 When I again when I say cross state, I it has an implication of extended
[00:08:41 - 00:08:44]	 communication or of an of an extended mind concept
[00:08:44 - 00:08:47]	 goes with the idea of cross connection
[00:08:47 - 00:08:50]	 now finally in this to bring it down to a
[00:08:50 - 00:08:53]	 literal sense in the
[00:08:53 - 00:08:59]	 Cross this whole kind of cross paradigm incidentally
[00:08:59 - 00:09:03]	 One of the great general systems there is James Miller a biologist
[00:09:03 - 00:09:07]	 Talks about he said there are many people who do systems analysis
[00:09:08 - 00:09:12]	 That is to say you take a business and you analyze how it works every little bit of it
[00:09:12 - 00:09:16]	 He said that's a much deeper way to operate is what he calls the cross level hypothesis
[00:09:16 - 00:09:20]	 When you begin to mix things from different levels symbolic level
[00:09:20 - 00:09:23]	 on a mundane term what's going on with
[00:09:23 - 00:09:31]	 Athletics and aerobic and aerobics and fitness is rather interesting because there is a new type of
[00:09:31 - 00:09:36]	 Training going on now and this new type of training is called cross training
[00:09:37 - 00:09:38]	 It's called cross training
[00:09:38 - 00:09:45]	 There's a lot of people going to triathletes the Ironman stuff where you swim and then you run and then you bicycle
[00:09:45 - 00:09:49]	 and what people are doing I'm reading from an
[00:09:49 - 00:09:54]	 Article it says first associated with triathletes and needed to be prepared for running swimming and biking
[00:09:54 - 00:09:59]	 Cross training has been adopted by other athletes and now the general public
[00:09:59 - 00:10:05]	 Skiers are alternately roller skating lifting weight lifting weights and running before the first snow falls
[00:10:05 - 00:10:08]	 Runners are swimming and doing low impact aerobic dancing
[00:10:08 - 00:10:16]	 And in the same way beginning exercises are swimming riding stationary bikes are taking stretching classes, etc
[00:10:16 - 00:10:19]	 But what it does is interesting cross training appears to cut down
[00:10:19 - 00:10:25]	 Injuries because various muscle groups are strengthened by the different forms of exercise
[00:10:25 - 00:10:32]	 So you see I'm making an analogy between physical cross training and psychic cross training you exercise different as it were psychic muscles
[00:10:32 - 00:10:36]	 That is kind of cross straight across state interest
[00:10:36 - 00:10:40]	 Finally an obvious way of
[00:10:40 - 00:10:46]	 Inducing cross state memory and perception is to
[00:10:46 - 00:10:52]	 Be taught in a way in in school or in education
[00:10:52 - 00:10:56]	 Which the very last thing I'll say is going to focus on that
[00:10:56 - 00:11:02]	 Now one last subject before the final last subject this one won't be that long
[00:11:02 - 00:11:03]	 and
[00:11:03 - 00:11:10]	 There is a really a great thinker that I would like to honor for a moment in the general systems
[00:11:10 - 00:11:13]	 Very
[00:11:13 - 00:11:19]	 Framework it's someone that I knew personally and I know that Terrence knew and that's Eric Yonch and
[00:11:19 - 00:11:28]	 Yonch was a real he was a mathematician and a musician and the systems man and in every dimension his his works are like
[00:11:29 - 00:11:34]	 They're kind of like the glass bead game in a certain sense. They roam in so many different arenas and
[00:11:34 - 00:11:37]	 I talked to him about
[00:11:37 - 00:11:42]	 You know my work and thesis and stuff like that on several occasions
[00:11:42 - 00:11:47]	 and there's a term of his which caught my eye which I would like to bring to front now, which I
[00:11:47 - 00:11:54]	 Have found to be along with the non-memory concept in my thesis one of the central things that I'm going to be using
[00:11:54 - 00:11:58]	 And that is what he calls holistic system memory
[00:11:58 - 00:12:01]	 HSM holistic system memory and
[00:12:01 - 00:12:04]	 Essentially
[00:12:04 - 00:12:08]	 He he remarks here. He says in evolving systems
[00:12:08 - 00:12:16]	 Or systems with his with history that is to say all dissipative systems each
[00:12:16 - 00:12:20]	 System state depends on the past development of all subsystems
[00:12:20 - 00:12:24]	 There exists therefore a system memory in terms
[00:12:24 - 00:12:29]	 Of the entire system. In other words, there is some system memory
[00:12:29 - 00:12:34]	 No matter what phase you're in of the dissipative cycle whether it's arising abiding or dissolving
[00:12:34 - 00:12:40]	 There is some holistic system memory, which has got all the pieces no matter which phase you're in
[00:12:40 - 00:12:46]	 There's something which has got it all the way I can put it call it an over mind if you will for easy visualization
[00:12:46 - 00:12:49]	 so this holistic system memory and
[00:12:49 - 00:12:56]	 He goes on to say each system with history that is dissipative system remembers the total development
[00:12:56 - 00:12:58]	 Itself of its whole in other words
[00:12:58 - 00:13:02]	 It's the nominees is its karmic trajectory and is therefore capable of what he calls
[00:13:02 - 00:13:08]	 religio with its own origin now the word religio is from religion but then it religion
[00:13:08 - 00:13:15]	 It means to reconnect with really to reconnect with the source is its original intent
[00:13:15 - 00:13:18]	 so a
[00:13:18 - 00:13:25]	 Holistic system memory operates by reconnecting to the source of the system. So with that in mind
[00:13:25 - 00:13:28]	 I'd like to
[00:13:28 - 00:13:36]	 Just look at a very interesting dynamic here. What that means is you start from this say this is point a you start here now by
[00:13:36 - 00:13:41]	 Reconnecting to your source that means you go backwards to your source
[00:13:41 - 00:13:48]	 That means backwards to your like Buddha's the emptiness at the end of all those lives the source the primordial mind
[00:13:48 - 00:13:54]	 You're back to that point now at this point a curious thing happened and it happened to Buddha as well
[00:13:54 - 00:14:01]	 After you go back to source you get a feed forwards into the future of an unexpected
[00:14:01 - 00:14:04]	 unanticipated range of insight
[00:14:04 - 00:14:08]	 But you have to go back to ground zero in order to go forward
[00:14:08 - 00:14:14]	 It's the old French regulate from you Sante you draw back to delete forward
[00:14:14 - 00:14:15]	 now
[00:14:15 - 00:14:20]	 This model I have found operative in so many different forms in shamanic
[00:14:20 - 00:14:23]	 ecstasies
[00:14:23 - 00:14:27]	 in psychoanalysis and personal insight and creativity
[00:14:27 - 00:14:32]	 It is this idea of going back to source this temporary suspension of non-memory
[00:14:32 - 00:14:38]	 You see and then there can be a leap forward but there has to be a prepared mind before you go back to source many
[00:14:38 - 00:14:41]	 People just think I'll be quiet and I'll get creative first
[00:14:41 - 00:14:46]	 You have to fill the mind with intense creativity in terms of a search
[00:14:46 - 00:14:50]	 There has to be this intent then you have to release totally and you go back
[00:14:50 - 00:14:53]	 now
[00:14:53 - 00:14:56]	 this idea of holistic system memory
[00:14:56 - 00:15:01]	 Incorporates then both the idea of
[00:15:01 - 00:15:06]	 Shall we say cross state retention at the beginning?
[00:15:06 - 00:15:14]	 Going back to non-memory and then you get this leap into the unknown which takes you to some other cross state insight
[00:15:14 - 00:15:17]	 but it's a very I'm just I'm doing it very
[00:15:17 - 00:15:20]	 succinctly here because it's a subject which I
[00:15:20 - 00:15:24]	 could take a lot more time with but I just wanted to give you a
[00:15:24 - 00:15:30]	 Flavor of this. It's like in shamanic tradition. It's the idea of a shaman takes a
[00:15:32 - 00:15:40]	 psychedelic for example and then goes through a state of dismemberment the idea of the body is seen to be dismembered
[00:15:40 - 00:15:47]	 by some spirit animal for example eaten by a great bear or an eagle or a jaguar or what have you and
[00:15:47 - 00:15:52]	 Then it goes back it goes back to as it were you see this dismemberment takes you to ground zero
[00:15:52 - 00:15:59]	 You you you go back to source where to where the the allies the spirits can take you and remake you
[00:15:59 - 00:16:04]	 remake you and then they tell you into the future like that and you fly on the wings of the unknown and you come back
[00:16:04 - 00:16:08]	 With this gift from the unknown at that point
[00:16:08 - 00:16:14]	 But you have to go through the dismemberment before the rememberment of the psyche. There is that kind of cycle and
[00:16:14 - 00:16:16]	 it's interesting that in them
[00:16:16 - 00:16:23]	 Many of the Greek myths for example in the one of the Greek myths of the sixth century BC in
[00:16:24 - 00:16:31]	 There is a cave in Greece called Cofonius the cave of Cofonius Cofonius with the god of dreams and sleep
[00:16:31 - 00:16:37]	 But you would go into this cave and you would first sit on what they call the chair
[00:16:37 - 00:16:40]	 of forgetting the chair of Lathay and
[00:16:40 - 00:16:48]	 This chair of Lathay as it were you were given what I reckon to be a psychomimetic mushroom brew
[00:16:48 - 00:16:55]	 and then you were after this took effect then you were placed on another chair called the chair of memory and
[00:16:55 - 00:17:01]	 After you were wiped clean of your from the chair of forgetting of who you were
[00:17:01 - 00:17:06]	 you were dismembered psychically through the psychedelic then you sat on this chair of remembering and
[00:17:06 - 00:17:08]	 the
[00:17:08 - 00:17:10]	 The new information came through you
[00:17:10 - 00:17:15]	 Now again, this is the same way that the cloud of unknowing works
[00:17:15 - 00:17:22]	 You have to unknow before before you come to God you have to dismantle all your names labels places
[00:17:22 - 00:17:25]	 categories and concepts and only through unknowing
[00:17:25 - 00:17:30]	 Are you can you be filled with a different spirit the Spirit of God?
[00:17:30 - 00:17:33]	 But you have to release first
[00:17:33 - 00:17:41]	 Now this idea of holistic system memory is
[00:17:42 - 00:17:46]	 Quite a key one. I really haven't done it justice now, but in a
[00:17:46 - 00:17:51]	 Re-education process and that's the last thing I want to spend a few minutes on
[00:17:51 - 00:17:57]	 It is where I would put a lot of emphasis. You see the way that our memory works today
[00:17:57 - 00:18:03]	 We spend a lot of time exercising rote mnemonics
[00:18:03 - 00:18:05]	 In terms of you know
[00:18:05 - 00:18:12]	 Like all these memory systems are based on wind friends and influence people by this fabulous memory system and all this type of thing
[00:18:12 - 00:18:14]	 But that's quantitative memory
[00:18:14 - 00:18:18]	 It has nothing to do with quality of memory quality of memory has to do with being able to touch source
[00:18:18 - 00:18:22]	 Being able to touch origin and then this leap of the unknown
[00:18:22 - 00:18:27]	 Out of it and I would like to see in some type of educational
[00:18:27 - 00:18:34]	 Situation for children. I'm really talking about I see I've taught at university level and I thought at
[00:18:34 - 00:18:39]	 Adult education level the end the area that interests me the most now is that it's at the children level
[00:18:40 - 00:18:45]	 Because I cannot say that the sense of going 20 years and then telling a kid like you got it all wrong
[00:18:45 - 00:18:51]	 You're neurotic. We're gonna have to send you to the psychoanalyst and to de-school someone after 20 years
[00:18:51 - 00:18:52]	 I can't see the sense of it
[00:18:52 - 00:18:56]	 It's can totally counterproductive if you give someone an education
[00:18:56 - 00:19:03]	 Which is cross-state or extended to begin with that is to say you were taught the and the good cross-state analogy
[00:19:03 - 00:19:08]	 is the glass bead game in the sense you see the relationship of a volcano to a symphony to a star and
[00:19:09 - 00:19:15]	 You you begin to extend the mind through all these different categories. You don't just teach children state specifically
[00:19:15 - 00:19:21]	 This is mathematics and this is history and this is biology and you never teach how they cross
[00:19:21 - 00:19:24]	 You never look at the parallels in the analogy of the globe
[00:19:24 - 00:19:28]	 So this is what I would really emphasize in education and I would also
[00:19:28 - 00:19:32]	 Edu educate in terms of senses as I've said before here
[00:19:32 - 00:19:37]	 I really think you have to take each sense and you have to teach each sense in detail
[00:19:37 - 00:19:39]	 You want a master of each sense?
[00:19:39 - 00:19:46]	 You want a master of sight smell touch hearing sound and set all of the senses a master to be for the kids to be taught
[00:19:46 - 00:19:51]	 Sequentially by each one of these and then you teach them after the sequential thing how to integrate
[00:19:51 - 00:19:56]	 All these different masteries of the senses and then you will get cross-state perception
[00:19:56 - 00:20:02]	 And when you get cross-state perception, you will get cross-state retention. That's really in a nutshell how it works
[00:20:02 - 00:20:05]	 now
[00:20:05 - 00:20:12]	 One of the things in the way that we're kind of exposed to life and consciousness in terms today
[00:20:12 - 00:20:15]	 is we are
[00:20:15 - 00:20:24]	 Every technology as McLuhan says and I'll quote him the main influence of any technology is not exercise consciously through concepts and opinions
[00:20:24 - 00:20:30]	 But rather unconsciously by altering the sense ratios of patterns and perception
[00:20:31 - 00:20:35]	 You see it's not just the technology with every take itself the technology
[00:20:35 - 00:20:41]	 alters our sense ratios and our sense ratios have been pushed so that the visual thing is where it's at and
[00:20:41 - 00:20:46]	 I have nothing against vision per se but I'm just saying the sense of
[00:20:46 - 00:20:52]	 All the other senses are secondary to vision which is 70 to 80 percent of the way we sense the world
[00:20:52 - 00:20:56]	 If another opportunity arises, I'll share it with you
[00:20:56 - 00:21:02]	 I already have with many of you before my interest in the sense of smell I think is another thing that could be emphasized very
[00:21:02 - 00:21:04]	 strongly
[00:21:04 - 00:21:08]	 So we have to learn how to get our way out of this what I call sensory amnesia
[00:21:08 - 00:21:11]	 Which we really have for many of the senses
[00:21:11 - 00:21:14]	 now
[00:21:14 - 00:21:20]	 The idea of as I said this kind of cross-state amphibian is
[00:21:20 - 00:21:22]	 a
[00:21:22 - 00:21:31]	 Very very important one and I think that we have to learn in being cross-state amphibians and from the altered state
[00:21:31 - 00:21:38]	 Experience one of the biggest things that I've ever learned is as I was trying to say to point out last night in my question
[00:21:38 - 00:21:41]	 To Terrence, you know so many people can't bring it back alive
[00:21:41 - 00:21:47]	 It's just they know they had the feeling that limbic flash of emotional. Yeah, I got it. Aha rush
[00:21:48 - 00:21:55]	 but they really don't have the content and the trick you see is the following that I found after my own
[00:21:55 - 00:21:58]	 Voyages into these realms is to learn to pay attention
[00:21:58 - 00:22:04]	 while you are in the state of what is going on to a
[00:22:04 - 00:22:10]	 very precise degree in other words to imprint at the moment of recognition a
[00:22:10 - 00:22:17]	 Moment, which says aha. This is how it works. I see this goes to move to this. This is important
[00:22:17 - 00:22:21]	 I will put a beacon in my mind at this point. I will light a bonfire
[00:22:21 - 00:22:24]	 So that later tomorrow when I wake up
[00:22:24 - 00:22:29]	 I will see that bonfire in my mind and that bonfire will remind me of that insight
[00:22:29 - 00:22:34]	 That beacon you see what you're doing as a one teacher
[00:22:34 - 00:22:37]	 EJ Gold one of the
[00:22:37 - 00:22:42]	 Workers and the good chief workers said what you're doing is you're building beach heads in the fourth dimension
[00:22:43 - 00:22:48]	 By this technique what you're essentially doing is you are learning to imprint
[00:22:48 - 00:22:54]	 Your attention your intention to remember at the moment of recognition
[00:22:54 - 00:22:59]	 You have to imprint that intention to to hold it isn't enough just to have it
[00:22:59 - 00:23:02]	 You know as you said before it's not enough just to
[00:23:02 - 00:23:09]	 How did you say you've got to not not you're not just looking you how do you say you've got to face the thing?
[00:23:09 - 00:23:15]	 that's already there in a sense, it's not just a question of confronting something else and
[00:23:15 - 00:23:19]	 This idea of
[00:23:19 - 00:23:24]	 Imprinting at the moment because you see these ideas that we have an altered state
[00:23:24 - 00:23:27]	 I'll put it very graphically have an extremely short half-life
[00:23:27 - 00:23:31]	 They go like that like that like that like that and they're coming all over the place
[00:23:31 - 00:23:37]	 Especially when time becomes liquid they come at you from omni-direction as high as parents said you're dealing with
[00:23:38 - 00:23:40]	 four-dimensional idea complexes and
[00:23:40 - 00:23:45]	 The way that if you cannot imprint this will this intention
[00:23:45 - 00:23:50]	 To to recall in an all in the ordinary state you lose it
[00:23:50 - 00:23:56]	 Now the way that my mind works in these states and in this kind of extended runs my mind works in these kind of
[00:23:56 - 00:24:02]	 Bifurcations one thing reminds me of another thing reminds me of another and da da da da da but unless I make a moment for
[00:24:02 - 00:24:05]	 recapitulation while I'm in the state
[00:24:05 - 00:24:07]	 I'll lose it you have to be able to
[00:24:08 - 00:24:14]	 Do that even for a microsecond or else you lose it you say because what it is is attention
[00:24:14 - 00:24:17]	 You are investing some more attention at that moment into the idea
[00:24:17 - 00:24:24]	 So attention is the way that you that you can develop your cross-state retention is the development of attention
[00:24:24 - 00:24:27]	 Really develop that sense of attention
[00:24:27 - 00:24:33]	 anyhow for then and really in summing all this up for the the idea of a
[00:24:35 - 00:24:41]	 Extended mind is this idea of going cross-state is extending but to do that
[00:24:41 - 00:24:48]	 You have to learn the simple art of attention and you have to realize that objects are attention traps
[00:24:48 - 00:24:53]	 If you are unconscious and they will fixate your attention and track them
[00:24:53 - 00:24:58]	 You will be hooked on to what happens to your Mercedes or what happens to your beautiful house
[00:24:58 - 00:25:01]	 If you let yourself go to that extent
[00:25:01 - 00:25:07]	 Conversely, you shouldn't pay, you know, no attention to them at all. There has to be a balance between
[00:25:07 - 00:25:13]	 Paying too much and too little attention there has to be that kind of sense of right effort
[00:25:13 - 00:25:18]	 Of attention but this idea of an extended paradigm
[00:25:18 - 00:25:27]	 I think going over the idea of the object proliferation and the attention and the cross-state retention are different ways that I can see
[00:25:27 - 00:25:30]	 that kind of contribute to this
[00:25:31 - 00:25:36]	 This overall idea of an extended mind paradigm, so I'm gonna shut up now and
[00:25:36 - 00:25:42]	 I'd like to if you have any questions or discussion or something like that, you know go over some of these things
[00:25:42 - 00:25:49]	 The trick that I use is when something happens that I want to remember I
[00:25:49 - 00:25:53]	 imprinted as John said but then
[00:25:53 - 00:25:59]	 Ten minutes later. I tell it to myself again. Yeah and 40 minutes after that
[00:25:59 - 00:26:04]	 You cannot simply mark it in your mind and 24 hours. That's right
[00:26:04 - 00:26:12]	 It's rehearsal you have to hand it from the deeper levels to the slightly less deep levels to the more shallow
[00:26:12 - 00:26:19]	 Levels and finally into consciousness and this doesn't fail if you do that, you'll get it out. Yeah, this is a good point
[00:26:19 - 00:26:22]	 It's called rehearsal. Yeah, and it is a way of
[00:26:22 - 00:26:24]	 of
[00:26:24 - 00:26:26]	 Memory transfer. Yeah, it's good point
[00:26:26 - 00:26:28]	 I
[00:26:28 - 00:26:42]	 Was very interested by the way in which
[00:26:42 - 00:26:49]	 The themes that these two of the things that are striking me a lot and of course these discussions are the habit versus novelty
[00:26:49 - 00:26:52]	 dichotomy
[00:26:52 - 00:26:56]	 And morphic resonance is a system of habit formation and habit reinforcement and
[00:26:56 - 00:27:04]	 Terrence's novelty wave running through history the opposite of it as novelty increases and
[00:27:04 - 00:27:11]	 One way of looking at what it is that decreases as habit and those novelty decreases what increases
[00:27:11 - 00:27:16]	 habit so one can see the novelty wave as a kind of interplay of habits and novelty and
[00:27:17 - 00:27:23]	 I thought that you took this for me. Anyway, you took suggested several new aspects of this
[00:27:23 - 00:27:27]	 way of looking at things because through the loss of short-term memory and
[00:27:27 - 00:27:32]	 Which you say precedes many altered states and which is also surely a characteristic of dreams
[00:27:32 - 00:27:33]	 and
[00:27:33 - 00:27:40]	 It means that you're permanently as it were staffing on the advancing novelty wave and so you're and
[00:27:40 - 00:27:47]	 It you know what happened you keep forgetting what's happened and any objects that's there now in the present can turn into
[00:27:47 - 00:27:51]	 something else because the sort of no habitual inertia and
[00:27:51 - 00:27:57]	 This also is like the kind of Terrence's theory of the origin of language that he told us last night where people
[00:27:57 - 00:28:00]	 sort of babble in a kind of Zuma glossy way and
[00:28:00 - 00:28:05]	 Sort of surfing on the breaking wave of novelty at the whole time and somehow transmitting that to others
[00:28:05 - 00:28:12]	 And but without the language yet having a whole series of built up and established habitual meanings and conventions
[00:28:12 - 00:28:16]	 So
[00:28:17 - 00:28:19]	 And it seemed to me that your
[00:28:19 - 00:28:21]	 notion of cross-state retention
[00:28:21 - 00:28:25]	 It's really it's it's partly
[00:28:25 - 00:28:32]	 Building up fields which embrace and I mean it seemed to me implicit in all you were saying and sometimes explicit
[00:28:32 - 00:28:35]	 There's a kind of hierarchical field model of these things
[00:28:35 - 00:28:42]	 So what you call or what the ends called holistic systems memory would happen when you have a large-scale field with other subsystems within it
[00:28:42 - 00:28:45]	 each with their own fields and that
[00:28:46 - 00:28:49]	 Even if individual systems come into being and pass away the larger field
[00:28:49 - 00:28:55]	 That's right and somehow retains a memory often and the primordial mind could perhaps be considered the ultimate
[00:28:55 - 00:28:59]	 larger field within which all fields come into being and pass away and
[00:28:59 - 00:29:04]	 So it seems to me to play to
[00:29:04 - 00:29:10]	 Fit quite well with this sort of habit view and the proliferation of objects and which
[00:29:11 - 00:29:17]	 Give us the ultimate sense of habit because in a sense the solid state of matter which is what most of our objects are made
[00:29:17 - 00:29:19]	 out of iron metal
[00:29:19 - 00:29:21]	 originalist stone and
[00:29:21 - 00:29:28]	 But then these other things derived from the earth and from rocks like steel and aluminium and and so forth and
[00:29:28 - 00:29:33]	 Solid objects like rocks from which they're derived
[00:29:33 - 00:29:39]	 Endure for extremely long time and matter in the solid form is at its most fixed and habitual
[00:29:40 - 00:29:45]	 Less fixed in the liquid form less still and gaseous and as a fluid plasma
[00:29:45 - 00:29:48]	 There's a total flux the whole time
[00:29:48 - 00:29:54]	 And it's but in the solid form in the crystalline form another one that takes on a particularly rigid
[00:29:54 - 00:29:58]	 set of habits and
[00:29:58 - 00:30:03]	 I think one of the ways that we think about reality depends on what we take as the basic paradigm for reality
[00:30:03 - 00:30:08]	 And I think there's no doubt that solid objects are the basic paradigm for mechanistic science
[00:30:08 - 00:30:15]	 Because solid matter the atoms are considered the ultimate small solid objects. They're impenetrable
[00:30:15 - 00:30:20]	 I mean talking about the old-style atoms of atomism as it of course atoms have turned out not to be like this at all
[00:30:20 - 00:30:23]	 But the way they were thought of was as enduring solid objects
[00:30:23 - 00:30:29]	 and I think this astronomy had a lot to do with that because the astronomical model of reality is that
[00:30:29 - 00:30:36]	 Sun and moon and things endure indefinitely but when they disappear below the horizon, they haven't vanished
[00:30:36 - 00:30:41]	 They're enduring in where we can't see them that these solid objects persist indefinitely
[00:30:41 - 00:30:47]	 We live in a world which is conditioned by solid objects persisting for millions of years far beyond human time spans
[00:30:47 - 00:30:50]	 so we have the idea of astronomical time the kind of
[00:30:50 - 00:30:52]	 solid object
[00:30:52 - 00:30:56]	 Paradigm both of long-term time and of the endurance of objects
[00:30:56 - 00:31:01]	 In this world, which is very different from the biological paradigm of reality
[00:31:01 - 00:31:08]	 Which I suspect is when I'm fairly sure it's Terence's leading one to a larger extent my own which the biological model is that
[00:31:08 - 00:31:11]	 And the model you brought up is that things come into being
[00:31:11 - 00:31:15]	 They stay around they stay for a while or develop for a while and they pass away
[00:31:15 - 00:31:22]	 This is the biological model seeds germinate plants grow and they die. Babies are conceived. They grow as embryos
[00:31:22 - 00:31:28]	 They're born people grow up and grow old and they die and this is true of all things in the biological
[00:31:29 - 00:31:34]	 Realm they come into being they pass away what we have now is a model of the universe where a
[00:31:34 - 00:31:41]	 biological model of the universe the evolutionary universe where the universe comes into being hatching of the cosmic egg or the Big Bang and
[00:31:41 - 00:31:45]	 It grows and expands and may in due course
[00:31:45 - 00:31:49]	 Die or come to some kind of combination or transition
[00:31:49 - 00:31:56]	 But that isn't the model that either astronomy gives us all the mechanistic physics, which is based on eternal laws and eternal matter
[00:31:57 - 00:32:04]	 There isn't this perpetual flux of growing coming to being and passing away if we have a biological model then
[00:32:04 - 00:32:07]	 That fits with both what you said about memory arising and
[00:32:07 - 00:32:14]	 Persisting and falling back into my memory and fits into what something Terence said very evocatively last night
[00:32:14 - 00:32:16]	 It was kind of whole biological
[00:32:16 - 00:32:21]	 psychedelic reality of the home world of dreams which is behind the world physical world
[00:32:21 - 00:32:26]	 In which ever all of which things are coming into being and in general passing away
[00:32:27 - 00:32:28]	 and
[00:32:28 - 00:32:36]	 things that come into being repeatedly become increasingly habitual and things that if we make an abstraction from the most habitual of things known the
[00:32:36 - 00:32:38]	 crystals and
[00:32:38 - 00:32:43]	 We arrive at the idea of permanently enduring matter as the basic reality rather than the coming into being
[00:32:43 - 00:32:47]	 Forms and patterns and they're passing away and their recurrence
[00:32:47 - 00:32:54]	 Yes, I thought it was very interesting
[00:32:55 - 00:33:02]	 The proliferation of objects causing the increasing densification of the temporal
[00:33:02 - 00:33:05]	 dimension
[00:33:05 - 00:33:09]	 It seems to me that I'm saying this to Rupert at the break
[00:33:09 - 00:33:14]	 It's almost as though there is a
[00:33:14 - 00:33:18]	 transcendental object at the end of time and
[00:33:18 - 00:33:24]	 That every object that is created is an effort to
[00:33:25 - 00:33:30]	 Proximate the felt presence of the transcendental object so that
[00:33:30 - 00:33:33]	 either
[00:33:33 - 00:33:40]	 And I wondered as you spoke if perhaps we haven't passed the apex of the object proliferation
[00:33:40 - 00:33:43]	 phenomenon perhaps around
[00:33:43 - 00:33:50]	 1900 or so and that now there actually are fewer and fewer objects in our lives as
[00:33:51 - 00:33:57]	 computers and things like that become multipurpose objects that combine in themselves or
[00:33:57 - 00:34:06]	 objectify in themselves the ability to be many many different kinds of objects and in a kind of millenarian
[00:34:06 - 00:34:10]	 Extrapolation of that I can see objects
[00:34:10 - 00:34:13]	 As part of the historical advance
[00:34:13 - 00:34:16]	 Objects beginning to be fewer and fewer
[00:34:17 - 00:34:22]	 It's a kind of aesthetic taking hold with the ultimate result being
[00:34:22 - 00:34:30]	 the presence of only a single object in the world and that object would be the
[00:34:30 - 00:34:37]	 concrescent and objectified mind of the species because every object is essentially a
[00:34:37 - 00:34:41]	 trap for mind and it's an
[00:34:41 - 00:34:50]	 frozen portion of the mental universe so that one can and it fails always because it's only an
[00:34:50 - 00:34:52]	 approximation of the perfect object
[00:34:52 - 00:34:58]	 But the per and this to me this kind of idea ties in with the notion of the flying saucer
[00:34:58 - 00:35:03]	 The flying saucer which haunts time like a ghost has a curious
[00:35:03 - 00:35:06]	 relationship to an axe head
[00:35:07 - 00:35:15]	 It is in fact probably a manifestation of the same thing so that we can see that mind is trying to
[00:35:15 - 00:35:20]	 manifest itself wholly and completely and a notion like the
[00:35:20 - 00:35:29]	 Philosopher's Stone is the notion a curious blending of mental and physical qualities where something
[00:35:29 - 00:35:36]	 Behaves like an idea but is made of matter and has the enduring qualities of matter
[00:35:36 - 00:35:44]	 But the transforming qualities of thought so I guess what I'm saying is I think that we could almost measure our
[00:35:44 - 00:35:52]	 Distance from the transcendental object at the end of time by the proliferation of objects in our
[00:35:52 - 00:35:58]	 mutually created world and so that was very useful that connection of
[00:36:00 - 00:36:07]	 Objects to the density of time to my own notion of a transcendental object which is drawing things through time
[00:36:07 - 00:36:11]	 Toward this it it's it can be extrapolated further
[00:36:11 - 00:36:19]	 I mean, it's not only that all objects are attempts to realize the eminence of the felt object at the end of time
[00:36:19 - 00:36:24]	 But all Messiahs are trying to be the Messiah
[00:36:27 - 00:36:30]	 Religions are trying to be the religion
[00:36:30 - 00:36:37]	 It's that what being in history is it seems to me is a series of attempts to approximate
[00:36:37 - 00:36:46]	 Transcendental objects that are felt to be outside of time. And of course memory is very important in this
[00:36:55 - 00:36:59]	 The fascination with crystals seems to me to be a
[00:36:59 - 00:37:02]	 signature of this theme
[00:37:02 - 00:37:03]	 that we're
[00:37:03 - 00:37:05]	 the crystal of the
[00:37:05 - 00:37:09]	 Diamond body, which is the ultimately enduring
[00:37:09 - 00:37:12]	 ultimately transparent
[00:37:12 - 00:37:14]	 jewel which lures us
[00:37:14 - 00:37:17]	 onwards to supreme order and
[00:37:20 - 00:37:27]	 Matter which once chaotic is in its state of supreme order is ultimate luminous and transparent
[00:37:27 - 00:37:33]	 So that would view the current interest in crystals as a kind of symbolic
[00:37:33 - 00:37:38]	 This is my
[00:37:38 - 00:37:41]	 Glad that I didn't say it
[00:37:41 - 00:37:49]	 Yes, I think you're right that that why the crystals are fascinating is not for any
[00:37:50 - 00:37:56]	 Imagined power that they possess but because they are the embodiment of an ideal
[00:37:56 - 00:37:59]	 quite obviously
[00:37:59 - 00:38:04]	 I've got this thing here about
[00:38:04 - 00:38:08]	 Impregnating conscious objects in the environment and
[00:38:08 - 00:38:13]	 crystals would definitely be you know, the primary aspect of a
[00:38:13 - 00:38:19]	 Conscious object either thought that they can heal and respond to consciousness and stuff like so it is
[00:38:19 - 00:38:21]	 It's a very good
[00:38:21 - 00:38:26]	 specific example of a conscious environment and I would I
[00:38:26 - 00:38:34]	 I think you're somewhat optimistic to think we passed the apex. I think that we will pass it. Oh
[00:38:34 - 00:38:36]	 only to the degree that
[00:38:36 - 00:38:40]	 We go through some kind of
[00:38:40 - 00:38:42]	 very large scale
[00:38:42 - 00:38:49]	 Bifurcation point some there's gonna be some radical change. I don't think it's just going to be
[00:38:49 - 00:38:53]	 Okay, everybody. Let's get rid of all your objects. Obviously, it's not going to be like that
[00:38:53 - 00:38:59]	 I think the computer can save a lot of as you say multi-purpose work and tasks, but you see
[00:38:59 - 00:39:03]	 Capitalism as it stands now is based on the generation of objects
[00:39:03 - 00:39:05]	 That's what I mean
[00:39:05 - 00:39:09]	 And so and everyone wants to make that buck because you only go around once in life
[00:39:09 - 00:39:14]	 You see the point is once we get rid of that you only go around once in life scenario
[00:39:14 - 00:39:21]	 Then the object proliferation will begin to diminish because then you'll have a dream time kind of consciousness
[00:39:21 - 00:39:27]	 And if you can have an electronic dream time, this was something that Andrews talking about you can begin to do that
[00:39:27 - 00:39:34]	 By using a computer, you know type of reality as it were
[00:39:34 - 00:39:41]	 Well, don't you think maybe the hopeful sign is that though we don't
[00:39:42 - 00:39:48]	 Necessarily follow it in our daily lives that the dominant I believe I can say this
[00:39:48 - 00:39:53]	 I'm not sure that the dominant aesthetic in the West is an anti clutter
[00:39:53 - 00:39:56]	 We really appreciate
[00:39:56 - 00:40:02]	 fast empty spaces and clean lines and white walls and receding
[00:40:02 - 00:40:07]	 Perspectives where our Victorian grandmothers, you know
[00:40:07 - 00:40:15]	 like to hang plants in small gloomy rooms with tables covered with tchotchkes and
[00:40:15 - 00:40:17]	 I'd agree but
[00:40:17 - 00:40:24]	 By the same token, I think that a lot of the architecture is actually is actually impoverished today
[00:40:24 - 00:40:30]	 You look at the same street corner in Paris and a hundred years ago and today and you see what's there and these clean
[00:40:30 - 00:40:33]	 Streamlined lines don't have the elegance
[00:40:33 - 00:40:38]	 they don't have the beautiful curvilinear sense that represents the arising and
[00:40:38 - 00:40:42]	 Dissolving aspect I know what you want to say, but I I can't go
[00:40:42 - 00:40:50]	 completely the idea that we want to be anti clutter because I find more and I find the clutter is is is is
[00:40:50 - 00:40:59]	 Proliferating itself. I wish I could say that it was going the other way. We're awareness the awareness of clutter is here. Yes, but
[00:40:59 - 00:41:04]	 I don't find I mean you take a culture like Morocco or or
[00:41:04 - 00:41:10]	 In American Indian culture where you have this beauty you have a teepee or you have a mosque or you know
[00:41:10 - 00:41:14]	 We have beautiful simple curvilinear lines and not too many objects
[00:41:14 - 00:41:17]	 I don't know. I think we've got a ways to go before we reach that
[00:41:17 - 00:41:19]	 Aesthetic how many people here?
[00:41:19 - 00:41:24]	 Here the Japanese
[00:41:24 - 00:41:29]	 interesting because they are the masters of space the masters of
[00:41:29 - 00:41:34]	 no, clutter and and objects then have always been very few and
[00:41:34 - 00:41:43]	 Each material has been understood in its very essence and that essence has become the object in all its manifestations
[00:41:43 - 00:41:46]	 but now they're in this extraordinary role of providing us of
[00:41:46 - 00:41:50]	 feeding the West with every kind of electronic objects and
[00:41:50 - 00:41:57]	 Yeah, and there's always new desires and for instance thinking of like simple things like coffee makers, you know
[00:41:58 - 00:42:03]	 That it's not a you know, a few years ago was a big innovation to have like a drip coffee
[00:42:03 - 00:42:05]	 Mr. Coffee kind of thing
[00:42:05 - 00:42:09]	 But now you have to have an espresso machine and then you have to have the thing with the steamer
[00:42:09 - 00:42:14]	 You know and and it's not enough just to have a TV you have to have a VCR and then you have to have a special
[00:42:14 - 00:42:20]	 Timing device that will catch your show when you're not home and play it back and and you have to have a pasta maker
[00:42:20 - 00:42:23]	 And on and on all these kind of like it
[00:42:23 - 00:42:28]	 I see that it is proliferating but I think what you might be talking about is that it's miniaturizing
[00:42:28 - 00:42:32]	 The technology is getting smaller in a sense, but it's not particularly
[00:42:32 - 00:42:38]	 Less objects the other thing I thought of when you were saying that was the movie
[00:42:38 - 00:42:43]	 2001 where that whole theme of the the object actually the tool is
[00:42:43 - 00:42:47]	 so explicitly stated where the the the ape is with the
[00:42:47 - 00:42:54]	 Bone hitting the first tool and he throws it up in the air and ecstasy and it comes down as the spaceship and in
[00:42:54 - 00:42:56]	 a sense HAL
[00:42:56 - 00:43:01]	 9000 is that ultimate tool and that's one of the main subplots of that movie
[00:43:01 - 00:43:07]	 That it does do everything that you want an object to do that it in some sense does approximate this
[00:43:07 - 00:43:12]	 Omnipotent power but something goes wrong and goes haywire
[00:43:13 - 00:43:19]	 Well, the curious thing about these lines of progression as they now surface in the computer industry
[00:43:19 - 00:43:25]	 Is that the product which the computer industry is dealing is the self
[00:43:25 - 00:43:34]	 That's what they're selling. And so aren't you interested in buying in to the self? How can you be without it?
[00:43:34 - 00:43:36]	 It's the ultimate product
[00:43:36 - 00:43:43]	 I mean they say you will be more powerful your memory your plans your wishes your intentions
[00:43:43 - 00:43:47]	 They have out of dealing us all kinds of garbage
[00:43:47 - 00:43:52]	 They have finally centered in on the ultimate product the thing that everybody
[00:43:52 - 00:44:00]	 Wants as much of as they can possibly get their hands on and they're just packaging it up furiously and getting it out to us
[00:44:00 - 00:44:07]	 But perhaps we have closed some sort of cycle with the realization that the ultimate product
[00:44:07 - 00:44:10]	 Can be the self now
[00:44:10 - 00:44:15]	 let's just make that conscious get money out of the cycle and
[00:44:15 - 00:44:19]	 Suddenly we will turn into a very different kind of civilization
[00:44:19 - 00:44:26]	 Chance when I visited him recommended this book called Neuromancer
[00:44:26 - 00:44:30]	 Which basically
[00:44:30 - 00:44:38]	 To follow that proliferation of objects into a fused hole what this then posits is a not too distant future reality where
[00:44:38 - 00:44:41]	 There's a collective
[00:44:41 - 00:44:45]	 Consensual reality called cyberspace. In other words the computer
[00:44:45 - 00:44:50]	 Opens out this consensual hallucinogenic reality that you then enter into
[00:44:50 - 00:44:55]	 I'm not sure I want to go with that except that that does become
[00:44:56 - 00:45:01]	 That is a sense an object but then that also in a sense becomes a state of consciousness as well
[00:45:01 - 00:45:10]	 And it's a form of an extended mind that everybody shares in yes computers then become doorways rather than machines
[00:45:10 - 00:45:15]	 I don't know how many of you have used the Macintosh operating system
[00:45:15 - 00:45:19]	 but the genius of this operating system is
[00:45:19 - 00:45:24]	 Let's say you're in a program like full paint and you need a pencil
[00:45:25 - 00:45:32]	 you must go and to this thing called the toolbox and get the pencil and bring it back to the
[00:45:32 - 00:45:38]	 Desktop and then use it and when you're through using the pencil you put the pencil away
[00:45:38 - 00:45:43]	 So all these conventions of ordinary three-dimensional space
[00:45:43 - 00:45:46]	 Have been written into this operating system
[00:45:46 - 00:45:53]	 So you need know nothing about computers the computer has disappeared and the ordinary set of
[00:45:54 - 00:45:59]	 Flexes go get pick up use put back are all
[00:45:59 - 00:46:07]	 Operating and you can see in 20 years what this is going to lead to it's going to lead to
[00:46:07 - 00:46:16]	 You just these are walk-in worlds that will be made as much as user-friendly as three-dimensional space
[00:46:16 - 00:46:18]	 That's the goal obviously
[00:46:18 - 00:46:21]	 Conceivably
[00:46:22 - 00:46:24]	 But I
[00:46:24 - 00:46:32]	 Mean it's a particular materialized aspect of something that seems to obtain at every realm of reality
[00:46:32 - 00:46:39]	 Because one of my experience of psychedelic realms is one of a wild proliferation of forms and shapes and patterns and
[00:46:39 - 00:46:42]	 limitless proliferation and
[00:46:42 - 00:46:44]	 biological evolution
[00:46:44 - 00:46:52]	 Shows the same kind of seemingly limitless proliferation in over a million species of insects and tropical rain forests with
[00:46:52 - 00:46:58]	 Tens of thousands of plant species in them and this justice kind of wild proliferation
[00:46:58 - 00:47:03]	 Which presumably happens when the novelty wave gets loose for a while?
[00:47:03 - 00:47:06]	 as it does again on Monday and
[00:47:06 - 00:47:08]	 this
[00:47:08 - 00:47:13]	 the the this one proliferation seems to be part of the very nature of things and
[00:47:13 - 00:47:20]	 The sudden the thing about habit is at least it has a kind of stabilizing effect on some of these proliferating
[00:47:20 - 00:47:24]	 I mean, why should one want to bring anything back from the psychedelic experience or even from the Amazon jungle?
[00:47:24 - 00:47:27]	 and in a sense
[00:47:27 - 00:47:29]	 You know
[00:47:29 - 00:47:33]	 When one's got it back it becomes a kind of object herbarium specimen. It has a name
[00:47:33 - 00:47:38]	 It's sort of it becomes part of the kind of objectified materialized world, but
[00:47:38 - 00:47:42]	 One of the things that overwhelms me a lot of the time
[00:47:42 - 00:47:45]	 It's a kind of feeling that I find hard to put to words
[00:47:45 - 00:47:52]	 It's just the overwhelming variety of objects the fact one could if one wished pay attention to almost anything
[00:47:52 - 00:47:55]	 when I was in India, I was employed to
[00:47:55 - 00:48:01]	 Work on the physiology of pigeon pea plants, which are very much to my taste that plant my insides
[00:48:01 - 00:48:07]	 I like them very much and I know them better than any other plant I think and
[00:48:07 - 00:48:09]	 and
[00:48:09 - 00:48:14]	 But in a sense this infinite levels, you know, the anatomy of the pigeon pea
[00:48:14 - 00:48:16]	 I know you can cut open any leaf or stem
[00:48:16 - 00:48:23]	 with some of my customers see layers of cells and order within cells and then there are thousands of varieties of pigeon pea plants
[00:48:23 - 00:48:25]	 We had them growing in our fields
[00:48:25 - 00:48:30]	 There's thousands of different things you could look at in each variety and thousands of measurements you could make in these experiments
[00:48:30 - 00:48:37]	 That's just one plant within a genus which has something like 20 other species and that's part of a family with thousands of others
[00:48:38 - 00:48:45]	 Species within it seem quite arbitrary I could equally well if some did ask me to be worth on another plant in the species
[00:48:45 - 00:48:50]	 There's this kind of arbitrary element to attention the same with books you go into a library
[00:48:50 - 00:48:55]	 There are thousands and thousands of books or a bookshop all on potentially fascinating topics
[00:48:55 - 00:49:03]	 You know, why should one read one rather than another and that seems to be the big problem if the if one is going to try
[00:49:03 - 00:49:06]	 And make cross state pretensions or if one is going to try and bring things back
[00:49:07 - 00:49:12]	 Why that rather than something else because we live in this wildly proliferating world
[00:49:12 - 00:49:18]	 You know why that rather than something else I think the whole
[00:49:18 - 00:49:20]	 thing
[00:49:20 - 00:49:22]	 hinges on how meaningful
[00:49:22 - 00:49:29]	 It is at the moment to the person meaning meaningness in the eye of the beholder and
[00:49:29 - 00:49:36]	 If what you know something that is hyperdimensional to Terrence or myself might be different to anyone else here
[00:49:36 - 00:49:41]	 But the point is usually as you go up the node in these kind of hyperdimensional
[00:49:41 - 00:49:49]	 Complexes the ones up high the one those are the ones when you bring them back are going to have the most extensive communicable
[00:49:49 - 00:49:55]	 Aspect to all people at the most basic level you see if you pick from too low a level
[00:49:55 - 00:50:02]	 You'll only be able to communicate to a super specialist, but you want to get those ideas of ultimate generalization
[00:50:02 - 00:50:10]	 Yet ultimate simplicity and ultimate power and those are the ones those are the the rare animals the rare plants
[00:50:10 - 00:50:15]	 That when you bring them back you can say something to a few people and they don't have to have great training
[00:50:15 - 00:50:19]	 They'll have the most impact. I think that's what it's about the highest communicability
[00:50:19 - 00:50:29]	 Kind of hyperdimensional complexes the ones up high the one those are the ones when you bring them back are going to have the most extensive
[00:50:29 - 00:50:31]	 communicable
[00:50:31 - 00:50:35]	 Aspect to all people at the most basic level you see if you pick from too low a level
[00:50:35 - 00:50:42]	 You'll only be able to communicate to a super specialist, but you want to get those ideas of ultimate generalization
[00:50:42 - 00:50:49]	 Yet ultimate simplicity and ultimate power and those are the ones those are the the the rare animals
[00:50:49 - 00:50:55]	 The rare plants that when you bring them back you can say something to a few people and they don't have to have great training
[00:50:55 - 00:50:59]	 They'll have the most impact. I think that's what it's about the highest communicability
[00:51:00 - 00:51:02]	 Yes
[00:51:02 - 00:51:06]	 of course Terence is on a rather simple topic in a sense because
[00:51:06 - 00:51:12]	 You know if if every one of the tropical species of the Amazon entered took one into a totally different psychedelic realm
[00:51:12 - 00:51:18]	 They're kind of arbitrary quality. There does seem to be a manageably small number of known hallucinogenic plants
[00:51:18 - 00:51:23]	 Although not a manageable number of hallucinogenic images. No
[00:51:23 - 00:51:27]	 There doesn't a manageable number of hallucinogenic creodes
[00:51:27 - 00:51:32]	 That and true and in a sense anyone who takes has the DMT expensive mushroom experiences
[00:51:32 - 00:51:37]	 Traversing a path or at least they're going on the kind they buy getting a ticket to a realm
[00:51:37 - 00:51:43]	 You know, they're checking in to a flight to a realm where others have been before and in
[00:51:43 - 00:51:53]	 Nominal on the proliferation of language for instance as we go back in time the tools get simpler and simpler
[00:51:56 - 00:51:58]	 Throw it do all these things
[00:51:58 - 00:52:06]	 But you notice that it could do some things better than others and you said we we scrape
[00:52:06 - 00:52:08]	 Therefore we need a scraper
[00:52:08 - 00:52:14]	 We slash therefore we need a slasher and these verbs
[00:52:14 - 00:52:21]	 Were translated in in their functions became objects. Okay, it's a good point
[00:52:21 - 00:52:24]	 What what happens in this type of thing is you get the code?
[00:52:26 - 00:52:31]	 evolution of language and objects in other words as you as your objects
[00:52:31 - 00:52:37]	 Develop language your language develops objects and you're you get this kind of oscillation between language and objects
[00:52:37 - 00:52:47]	 Dimensional object or language can we force the development of the other I wouldn't say you would force it it would come
[00:52:47 - 00:52:51]	 Yes, but it's a so it is in fact the same enterprise
[00:52:51 - 00:52:59]	 the evolution of a hyperdimensional language is nothing less than the project to create a hyperdimensional object and
[00:52:59 - 00:53:05]	 Vice-versa in a sense. I would say so if you get these incredible, you know
[00:53:05 - 00:53:13]	 psychedelic vision that you have and you're able you know and you call that a transcendental object and the idea is you will begin to
[00:53:13 - 00:53:15]	 get a
[00:53:15 - 00:53:21]	 Hyperdimensional language to begin to make that communicable or else it stays but that's what I mean by bringing it back by bringing
[00:53:21 - 00:53:26]	 It back. All I mean is by making communicable so that it is useful to other people
[00:53:26 - 00:53:30]	 I don't mean to bring it back and stick it in the zoo and say this is a hyperdimensional
[00:53:30 - 00:53:35]	 Object from the Amazon and one from Africa. It's kind of functional useful
[00:53:35 - 00:53:41]	 Evolution is what I call it has to have a potential what I call an evolutionary next message quality to it
[00:53:41 - 00:53:46]	 And it really has to have that that quality to it's not just object for the sake of object
[00:53:47 - 00:53:52]	 But then words which are beheld are much closer to being things
[00:53:52 - 00:53:58]	 Then words which are merely heard because like things they are seen
[00:53:58 - 00:54:02]	 So there's a migration toward a a single
[00:54:02 - 00:54:10]	 Translinguistic if you will state where objects and words are suddenly found to be the same thing
[00:54:10 - 00:54:16]	 And this would be the entry out of history and into a magical dimension where words and things are
[00:54:16 - 00:54:20]	 Okay, this is it. This is same time. This is this total
[00:54:20 - 00:54:24]	 Participation mistake this like in many for example the American Indian traditions
[00:54:24 - 00:54:31]	 They talked about there was a time when men could become animals and animals could become men and there was one language that was common
[00:54:31 - 00:54:37]	 To all beings this is this is the time when when this you can hyperdimensional translinguistic
[00:54:37 - 00:54:38]	 Whatever you want to call it
[00:54:38 - 00:54:45]	 There was one language and though you could go from species the idea of what we have of the Nagual of a shaman going to
[00:54:46 - 00:54:50]	 One animal equals much more common in ancient times, but I think so
[00:54:50 - 00:54:58]	 This is the realm of the extended mind that in the extended mind words and things are two sides of the same coin
[00:54:58 - 00:55:03]	 Yes, and the high at the highest level of it. Yes, the very highest level there you
[00:55:03 - 00:55:10]	 in the beginning with the word and then everything proceeded from that point and
[00:55:11 - 00:55:18]	 I think there is and in magic magic is based on the idea that you can buy intentional
[00:55:18 - 00:55:26]	 Visualization you can create an object. I mean I I mean they just say this as an anecdote. I was once doing a
[00:55:26 - 00:55:29]	 Doing a
[00:55:29 - 00:55:31]	 test with a
[00:55:31 - 00:55:34]	 biofeedback with
[00:55:34 - 00:55:40]	 this friend of mine Jeff Blundell and in England and he had this thing all hooked up to him and and
[00:55:41 - 00:55:44]	 We were sitting around about 15 of us and he said I want you to put this
[00:55:44 - 00:55:48]	 coin under one of the books in front of you in a circular table and
[00:55:48 - 00:55:55]	 Somehow my I'll be able to sense when I'm at the place and the lights were gone in this machine the mind mirror and all
[00:55:55 - 00:56:00]	 Of that kind of and he found it four out of four times where the coin was when he just went by
[00:56:00 - 00:56:03]	 and then I said to myself, hey, can I enough of that and I
[00:56:03 - 00:56:08]	 Said I don't have the coin that I'm going to create a virtual object underneath my book
[00:56:08 - 00:56:13]	 I'm gonna visualize the bloody coin and so I did I input the coin and he went by me and this bells went off
[00:56:13 - 00:56:17]	 And he says you've got the coin I said no way and he said I know you've got the coin
[00:56:17 - 00:56:22]	 I said no way and he said let's back under the book and he said what and I said, what did you do?
[00:56:22 - 00:56:28]	 I said I just placed the virtual objects under there and that was what that was just an illustration of was just magic
[00:56:28 - 00:56:32]	 Simple it's not magic. It's just the power of the extended mind
[00:56:32 - 00:56:40]	 You can just actually play something by intention and attention in the environment that will have that effect
[00:56:40 - 00:56:44]	 Well, it is it is
[00:56:44 - 00:56:59]	 Hyper meta space and and that the creation of let's say DNA
[00:57:00 - 00:57:08]	 First is a thought system and then as a as a creation of something that's manipulated and then it's genetic structure
[00:57:08 - 00:57:10]	 And then we can given that information
[00:57:10 - 00:57:13]	 have the ability to
[00:57:13 - 00:57:21]	 Hang out in our genetic structure in the as that is the metaphor of our extended mind like you were talking last night our genetic
[00:57:21 - 00:57:24]	 Structure going back and our genetic structure going forward
[00:57:25 - 00:57:32]	 Is it this is historical access of a group mind phenomena at the scientific base
[00:57:32 - 00:57:39]	 So what worth did the nub of your question? What word? How does how does this sort of mirror?
[00:57:39 - 00:57:45]	 What what the the alternative experience that you're talking about in terms of the the border crossings around?
[00:57:45 - 00:57:52]	 Going into let's say plant or animal phenomena. This is entering a kind of world
[00:57:53 - 00:57:58]	 Experienced enough yet to know that the sciences let's say up on this level
[00:57:58 - 00:58:03]	 Okay, ladder and and we can start accessing each other genetically across the the room
[00:58:03 - 00:58:06]	 But we just haven't figured out that that's how we're doing
[00:58:06 - 00:58:12]	 Well, but I first there's what Terence said before we've done all that in the past in our in our genetic path
[00:58:12 - 00:58:14]	 we've been able to go into plants and animals and
[00:58:14 - 00:58:20]	 Rocks and in the entire that's what they again what the dream time is all about the animated earth
[00:58:21 - 00:58:27]	 It's not just that the earth was alive. It says that we animated it by our our
[00:58:27 - 00:58:35]	 Interaction with it. It's not just this being the earth hanging out. It's what to really get into it. It's what?
[00:58:35 - 00:58:41]	 What we call the development of the geo psyche that's different than the Gaia field
[00:58:41 - 00:58:44]	 Which is the the mind and the being of the planet itself?
[00:58:44 - 00:58:50]	 But the geo psyche is the interaction of the collective mind of humanity or of a tribe with the Gaia field
[00:58:50 - 00:58:51]	 and
[00:58:51 - 00:58:55]	 that's when you begin to get the most interesting kind of a
[00:58:55 - 00:58:59]	 Hybrid going on and I think what science is done
[00:58:59 - 00:59:07]	 At a certain level sciences as Rupert is as said is and we are really a you know an object-based
[00:59:07 - 00:59:12]	 science we don't look at so much we don't look so much at
[00:59:13 - 00:59:20]	 The invisible nature of things in terms of this arising and dissolving kind of dissipated paradigm
[00:59:20 - 00:59:23]	 and I think that until we get a science which
[00:59:23 - 00:59:29]	 incorporates the the object world you don't want to dismiss that but as well as to see the
[00:59:29 - 00:59:34]	 The kind of the magic this magical element what in other words you see
[00:59:34 - 00:59:41]	 Like fridge off camper developed the new physics or they want to say developed made it popular and Rupert the new biology and what each
[00:59:41 - 00:59:45]	 Of these guys has done as I see it is add the dimension of mind
[00:59:45 - 00:59:49]	 to a classical scientific discipline
[00:59:49 - 00:59:55]	 And I in my own sense, I'm an archaeologist and what I've tried to do is add the dimension of mind to archaeology
[00:59:55 - 01:00:01]	 So essentially what we're doing is we're restoring a dimension that was written out of the program
[01:00:01 - 01:00:06]	 But it was always there in the earliest of times and as again what Rupert says
[01:00:06 - 01:00:13]	 I mean I have to you know listen to if the idea yes this object proliferation is part of history
[01:00:13 - 01:00:20]	 It's not a negative thing this there's tremendous diversity. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with object proliferation
[01:00:20 - 01:00:23]	 I'm just saying that when we become attached to the objects
[01:00:23 - 01:00:28]	 That our minds become attached to them and create this unconscious kind of mental
[01:00:28 - 01:00:33]	 Virus as it were and we become fixated at that level, but
[01:00:34 - 01:00:40]	 There are the phases there's the time for object proliferation and there's the time for it you see in music for example
[01:00:40 - 01:00:47]	 There's a thing that something I'll never forget the musician John Cage who used to play what he called a prepared piano you take
[01:00:47 - 01:00:52]	 A piano and you stick shoes in it and small alligators and marbles and you get all these weird sounds when you're playing the piano
[01:00:52 - 01:00:58]	 And one of what one of the things that he said about it, and this is a general systems principle
[01:00:58 - 01:01:01]	 He said after and talking about a tonal music
[01:01:01 - 01:01:05]	 You know that's that kind of Schoenbergian kind of you know non-rhythmical
[01:01:05 - 01:01:08]	 Stuff he says at a certain point
[01:01:08 - 01:01:12]	 spontaneity begins to neutralize itself
[01:01:12 - 01:01:18]	 And this is so important in composition and evolution at a certain point what may be very good for a time
[01:01:18 - 01:01:24]	 Actually becomes detrimental to a system cancer for example
[01:01:24 - 01:01:27]	 It's something which is you know you have a spontaneous movement
[01:01:27 - 01:01:34]	 But then it's out of control you get positive positive feedback, and you're gone you have to have these kind of governor these
[01:01:34 - 01:01:36]	 oscillations of kind of like
[01:01:36 - 01:01:40]	 representative some degree of habit which is positive habit and
[01:01:40 - 01:01:45]	 Positive action and then you have free flow and then you some habit comes back
[01:01:45 - 01:01:50]	 There's this oscillation to me the biggest lesson I've learned in all of this stuff is the oscillation
[01:01:50 - 01:01:55]	 Between form and emptiness and then to know that they are ultimately the same thing
[01:01:55 - 01:01:59]	 But you have to understand between memory and non-memory is advanced
[01:01:59 - 01:02:05]	 And between object and objectlessness is also a kind of advanced
[01:02:05 - 01:02:10]	 Let me just be before is there anyone else hasn't said anything that that might want to add anything
[01:02:10 - 01:02:17]	 Well
[01:02:21 - 01:02:27]	 Well I'll say a little bit and then parents can I mean go on I mean
[01:02:27 - 01:02:29]	 in a sense
[01:02:29 - 01:02:33]	 The I mean in one how would you define?
[01:02:33 - 01:02:40]	 I'll get to write a bit in one and like a sentence. How would you define novelty life so everyone knows what we're talking about?
[01:02:40 - 01:02:43]	 Following Rupert's formulation
[01:02:43 - 01:02:50]	 I think I would call it the ebb and flow of the interaction between habit and novelty okay
[01:02:50 - 01:02:52]	 So in a sense you see
[01:02:52 - 01:02:57]	 This is very much the same thing between the ebb and flow didn't have it now
[01:02:57 - 01:03:03]	 It's what I call the oscillation between memory and non-memory you see memory is habit based
[01:03:03 - 01:03:09]	 It's conservation based and non-memory is and even so Raja says this is what creativity emerges from
[01:03:09 - 01:03:12]	 so in a sense the relationship between
[01:03:12 - 01:03:16]	 intention and the novelty ways and
[01:03:16 - 01:03:21]	 You know it's a good question is that you see with without
[01:03:21 - 01:03:25]	 In intention
[01:03:25 - 01:03:29]	 Decides the point where you will shift from one state to another
[01:03:29 - 01:03:36]	 From memory to non-memory now the way I look at this for example is in meditation practice for example
[01:03:36 - 01:03:39]	 if I'm sitting and
[01:03:39 - 01:03:40]	 Take you take a tennis ball
[01:03:40 - 01:03:46]	 And you throw it up and the first bounce right at the very top of the bounce there's the point mathematics
[01:03:46 - 01:03:52]	 It's the x by DT the rate of change equals zero. It's just that point right there where it's at the height of the bounce
[01:03:52 - 01:03:58]	 That and then it bounces again in a little lower and it reaches that point again and again and again now the point is
[01:03:58 - 01:04:03]	 Each one of those points when they occur in consciousness when DX by the rate of change equals zero
[01:04:03 - 01:04:05]	 It's the optimum time to shift gears
[01:04:05 - 01:04:11]	 That's the time where if I'm doing a sitting practice, and I'm one focused into one pointedness
[01:04:11 - 01:04:15]	 There's a certain point where one pointedness becomes difficult to hold
[01:04:16 - 01:04:18]	 If you start to wander around the edges
[01:04:18 - 01:04:23]	 So what I've learned to do is right at that point a shift into no pointedness
[01:04:23 - 01:04:30]	 I give it rain and that there's a certain point where no pointedness begins to get to diffuse and at that point when the balls
[01:04:30 - 01:04:31]	 again
[01:04:31 - 01:04:39]	 You go back into the one pointedness and you have to learn those points of where that ultimate optimum rate of change is
[01:04:40 - 01:04:46]	 Where to shift and but to go with the shift don't do it against it say no, I'm doing a one-pointed sitting
[01:04:46 - 01:04:50]	 And I'm gonna do that and by God, I'm gonna torture myself. I don't I have found for me
[01:04:50 - 01:04:52]	 That's not the way I'm like this and when it begins to go
[01:04:52 - 01:04:58]	 I'll go like that and then when that weekend to go like this and and that way you see it's the transition
[01:04:58 - 01:05:01]	 from one state to another actually
[01:05:01 - 01:05:04]	 awaken intention and
[01:05:04 - 01:05:11]	 awaken you they when you go from one state to another it awakens you and one one last point to this about the intention is
[01:05:11 - 01:05:16]	 That the I said before the cycle is intention attention retention
[01:05:16 - 01:05:24]	 Actually behind that intention is another memory and it is a memory. It's this holistic system memory
[01:05:24 - 01:05:28]	 It's the one that knows the whole show in other words there
[01:05:28 - 01:05:33]	 There is something behind that day because to intend something you thought I want this to really be
[01:05:33 - 01:05:39]	 Focused you have to have an idea an image of what focused is and you don't know where you get that from and you get
[01:05:39 - 01:05:43]	 That from some holistic base, which is even before the intention
[01:05:43 - 01:05:51]	 Okay, any other points that people want to raise or just before we go have lunch or comments or anything
[01:06:00 - 01:06:07]	 With Terence that some extent objects and their names are the same but the the interesting thing and of course in
[01:06:07 - 01:06:13]	 Hindu systems you get this hyphenated word normal you thought and they were the name and the form
[01:06:13 - 01:06:17]	 Somehow equivalent but the interesting thing is
[01:06:17 - 01:06:21]	 That so many forms don't have names
[01:06:21 - 01:06:28]	 as you say the invention through these realms ones in the realm of the unspeakable much of the time forms without names and
[01:06:28 - 01:06:31]	 to bring them back they have to be named and
[01:06:31 - 01:06:36]	 However, many named with millions more that won't be named and will pass away perhaps forever
[01:06:36 - 01:06:40]	 And I think that it's just occurred to me
[01:06:40 - 01:06:44]	 We have very much this is a living reality in the world today with the conservation thing
[01:06:44 - 01:06:48]	 The Amazon jungle is full of species of insects and plants that have never been named
[01:06:48 - 01:06:53]	 In other words, they're unknown to science to use the conventional phrase
[01:06:54 - 01:07:02]	 When they're named it's announced in the taxonomic journals as a new species to science. In other words, they're not known until they're named and
[01:07:02 - 01:07:04]	 what's
[01:07:04 - 01:07:10]	 exercising a lot of people at the moment is that a lot of these species are going to become extinct before they're known and
[01:07:10 - 01:07:15]	 A lot of you think it's not so bad if they become extinct after they've been known
[01:07:15 - 01:07:20]	 So you send in a collecting trip and so you can name them all and have them all in here Q her barium
[01:07:21 - 01:07:27]	 Pressed on sheets and somehow recorded in photographs and then at least you've done that even if they become extinct
[01:07:27 - 01:07:30]	 But somehow the idea that they could just pass away without being named
[01:07:30 - 01:07:34]	 Is an actual reality of the world at the moment?
[01:07:34 - 01:07:37]	 This this is not just in the psychedelic realms
[01:07:37 - 01:07:43]	 But there are lots of unspeakable plants in the things unnameable plants because nobody's been there to name them yet
[01:07:43 - 01:07:49]	 So although in the sense some things become part of our mental world through being names and forms
[01:07:50 - 01:07:56]	 The psychedelic experience and the Amazonian jungle and lots of other things shows that there are many forms without names
[01:07:56 - 01:08:01]	 Cards are another example. We don't even bother to look at most of them because they have forms
[01:08:01 - 01:08:06]	 They sometimes remind us of things but usually we just assume these are unnameable forms
[01:08:06 - 01:08:10]	 As I say
[01:08:10 - 01:08:15]	 In this model everything arises out of this and it's just in this emptiness primordial mind
[01:08:15 - 01:08:21]	 It's infinitely spewing out new names and forms and new and I don't think you can ever if there millions of them
[01:08:21 - 01:08:27]	 You may never be lost forever. I don't think they're lost forever there anytime you tap that dream time that primordial mind
[01:08:27 - 01:08:31]	 It is not nothing ever truly ever disappears from that realm
[01:08:31 - 01:08:36]	 It's there gets contactable by the state that you put yourself into to access it
[01:08:36 - 01:08:44]	 That you can never be sure that you'll pass precisely that place but it doesn't matter it doesn't matter
[01:08:44 - 01:08:47]	 All you can really say is that if you were given the opportunity
[01:08:47 - 01:08:53]	 To bring as it were to imprint and bring it back and it didn't come back with you. It wasn't right for it
[01:08:53 - 01:08:58]	 I mean that it didn't have its communicability was not for that purpose. I
[01:08:58 - 01:09:01]	 really wouldn't
[01:09:01 - 01:09:04]	 You know, I
[01:09:04 - 01:09:06]	 Wouldn't worry about that element where that came from
[01:09:06 - 01:09:07]	 well
[01:09:07 - 01:09:14]	 But I think artists are the people who do worry about that who who keep trying to go into it and bring out as much
[01:09:14 - 01:09:19]	 As they can and feel the tension they want to speak the unspeakable
[01:09:19 - 01:09:26]	 They want to sculpt the unsculptable paint the unpaintable and every time they succeed a step forward is taken
[01:09:26 - 01:09:32]	 It is but just to round things kind of finally off. It's like what we were just saying the other day about
[01:09:32 - 01:09:36]	 Tribal art and canonical art like the Tonka's and things like that
[01:09:36 - 01:09:41]	 You see for them everything was accessible through a certain
[01:09:41 - 01:09:45]	 canons and frames of reference and geometry and form
[01:09:45 - 01:09:48]	 Because it would awaken within you
[01:09:48 - 01:09:55]	 The new states what we're saying on this other level the artists that it is this pursuit of a novelty wave
[01:09:55 - 01:10:01]	 Like if I don't get it, it's gone forever and it's very different from the traditional ways of canonical art
[01:10:01 - 01:10:04]	 being able to arrive in the mind something and
[01:10:05 - 01:10:12]	 In surrealism when it arose in the early part of this century the surrealist artists and painters and poets what they were all into
[01:10:12 - 01:10:17]	 When they started getting and smoking hash and hanging out in cafes and absence and all of that kind of stuff
[01:10:17 - 01:10:22]	 what they really got into is the idea that we can pull out images that no one has ever gotten before and the
[01:10:22 - 01:10:25]	 Dollies and and all those kind of people Magritte and etc
[01:10:25 - 01:10:32]	 But what after a couple of years I I did a study of this what they found disappointed them profoundly
[01:10:32 - 01:10:35]	 Because the more the further they went out into the unknown
[01:10:35 - 01:10:37]	 To get back the unsculptable and the unpaintable
[01:10:37 - 01:10:43]	 They found that archetypes of patterns were coming up that as far as they went to become individualized
[01:10:43 - 01:10:49]	 They kept on hitting archetypes as far as they went and that's what see all these artists who want to be
[01:10:49 - 01:10:53]	 Individual of the unpaintable and sculptable they'll come up against this
[01:10:53 - 01:11:05]	 In a sense and you what you want to do though as we said before if they have a balance between the best of habit
[01:11:05 - 01:11:07]	 And and the best of novelty
[01:11:07 - 01:11:13]	 That's really that's what what the novelty wave this ebb and flow of the two and between your merit memory and non memory
[01:11:13 - 01:11:19]	 You need that the yin and the yang to continually redefine each other to keep each other to awaken each other
[01:11:19 - 01:11:28]	 The role of ego
[01:11:28 - 01:11:33]	 Intention as opposed to the novelty wave and it seems to me it's a situation
[01:11:34 - 01:11:36]	 Like the old saying in Protestant hermeneutics
[01:11:36 - 01:11:40]	 man proposes God disposes
[01:11:40 - 01:11:45]	 Intentionality is the act of proposing the novelty wave
[01:11:45 - 01:11:50]	 Disposes of the intention in whatever way that it can at that moment
[01:11:59 - 01:12:07]	 And that's it this is KPFK Los Angeles and we've heard the end of John Steele speaking on memory and discussion
[01:12:07 - 01:12:14]	 with Terrence McKenna Rupert Sheldrake and Jill purse who is mrs. Rupert Sheldrake
[01:12:14 - 01:12:18]	 I should say Jill purse and Rupert Sheldrake who is mr. Jill purse