[00:00:00 - 00:00:04]	 To the Caribbean and the US Virgin Islands south into South America
[00:00:04 - 00:00:11]	 North to the pole and worldwide on the internet. This is coast to coast a.m. Good morning, everybody
[00:00:11 - 00:00:16]	 I'm art Bell and in the continuing adventure into the unknown
[00:00:16 - 00:00:19]	 uncharted territories
[00:00:19 - 00:00:21]	 of the human mind
[00:00:21 - 00:00:29]	 We're going to be departing a little in a way this night and interviewing a very
[00:00:29 - 00:00:33]	 very unusual individual on the Big Island of Hawaii
[00:00:33 - 00:00:36]	 named Terrence McKenna
[00:00:36 - 00:00:39]	 Who is Terrence McKenna?
[00:00:39 - 00:00:46]	 Well among other things he's probably the successor to Timothy Leary
[00:00:46 - 00:00:53]	 And that may not be the focus or it may turn into the focus of the interview I don't know
[00:00:53 - 00:00:55]	 And I don't care. He also
[00:00:57 - 00:00:59]	 Has a lot of very interesting views on time
[00:00:59 - 00:01:03]	 And what we are approaching
[00:01:03 - 00:01:08]	 We'll talk about all that with Terrence McKenna very interesting
[00:01:08 - 00:01:15]	 Fellow in a moment as matter of fact he had to come down. Oh, we'll find out about that from a very obscure location
[00:01:15 - 00:01:24]	 All right, this should be most interesting first, let us see if we can establish contact Terrence McKenna, are you there?
[00:01:24 - 00:01:30]	 Hmm. I am art. Good evening. How are you? Well, I'm just fine and I hope you hear me. I hear you. Okay
[00:01:30 - 00:01:34]	 Yes, I hear you fine. All right, you are
[00:01:34 - 00:01:40]	 You're on the Big Island of Hawaii. Is that right? That's right. Now when I called you the other day
[00:01:40 - 00:01:48]	 You were way up in an area where your only contact with the outside world was by cellular telephone
[00:01:48 - 00:01:51]	 Where do you actually live on a mountain somewhere?
[00:01:51 - 00:01:56]	 I live up on the slopes of the world's largest volcano
[00:01:56 - 00:02:01]	 Which is Mauna Loa and when you called me the other day, we mutually agreed
[00:02:01 - 00:02:04]	 My cell phone is not ready for prime time
[00:02:04 - 00:02:13]	 So I came off the mountain I do have up there a 128k connect to the internet that
[00:02:13 - 00:02:16]	 wireless 40 miles through the air
[00:02:17 - 00:02:23]	 But my phones are not so good so I came down off the mountain to talk to you this evening
[00:02:23 - 00:02:27]	 Well, if it were not for the delay, I would say an internet phone
[00:02:27 - 00:02:31]	 We could have done the interview by internet phone, but you have that little delay there that makes it hard
[00:02:31 - 00:02:35]	 So I think we've done the right thing. Anyway, so you're off your mountain project by the way
[00:02:35 - 00:02:41]	 Terrence what's it like living on the side of an active volcano?
[00:02:43 - 00:02:50]	 Well, it's it's very exciting actually, I don't know who's ever been out to the big island but no I have not
[00:02:50 - 00:02:57]	 People think of Hawaii is swaying palms and endless beaches what we have out here are
[00:02:57 - 00:03:03]	 Lava fields and fourteen thousand foot mountains on this island two of them
[00:03:03 - 00:03:06]	 one the world's largest
[00:03:06 - 00:03:11]	 volcano the world's largest mountain in terms of volume and the other one just
[00:03:12 - 00:03:14]	 hundreds or so feet shorter, so
[00:03:14 - 00:03:22]	 They are they we've got quite a dramatic landscape out here. Is there any possibility that that volcano?
[00:03:22 - 00:03:25]	 Will actually blow
[00:03:25 - 00:03:29]	 Well, it's been in continuous eruptions for the past 13 years
[00:03:29 - 00:03:38]	 But over on the other side about 70 miles away on on the what's called the helo or the west side
[00:03:38 - 00:03:41]	 So we sort of feel pretty safe out here
[00:03:41 - 00:03:49]	 There is some talk they had a meeting of the International Geophysical Congress a couple of years out here
[00:03:49 - 00:03:51]	 There is large-scale
[00:03:51 - 00:03:59]	 Destabilization that goes on periodically in these islands big undersea landslides that produce local
[00:03:59 - 00:04:04]	 Tsunami but in an effort to escape human created
[00:04:04 - 00:04:06]	 catastrophe and confusion
[00:04:06 - 00:04:13]	 I'm betting that I can eke out 50 years on this island and slide through in good shape
[00:04:13 - 00:04:17]	 Well, it's probably a pretty good bet actually in the long
[00:04:17 - 00:04:22]	 I think so I I think Hawaii if the world flies to pieces
[00:04:22 - 00:04:26]	 It'll be a very good place to be and if the world doesn't fly to pieces
[00:04:26 - 00:04:32]	 It's a pretty good place to be and if the volcano should totally blow up. It's a painless death
[00:04:32 - 00:04:34]	 That's right
[00:04:35 - 00:04:38]	 Dramatic one and a dramatic one as well. That's right
[00:04:38 - 00:04:41]	 All right
[00:04:41 - 00:04:47]	 You have a theory about time time actually parents is one of my favorite all-time
[00:04:47 - 00:04:52]	 Topics so what before we launch into what you think about time?
[00:04:52 - 00:04:56]	 Tell me what you think time is in other words is
[00:04:56 - 00:04:58]	 time
[00:04:58 - 00:05:01]	 our invention or is time a
[00:05:01 - 00:05:08]	 Real thing that we I mean I realize we're measuring it but in the cosmic scheme of things
[00:05:08 - 00:05:10]	 Is there really time?
[00:05:10 - 00:05:17]	 Yeah, I mean you give me a perfect entree to launch into this thing
[00:05:17 - 00:05:22]	 See in the West we have
[00:05:22 - 00:05:25]	 inherited from Newton
[00:05:25 - 00:05:28]	 What is called the idea of pure duration?
[00:05:28 - 00:05:34]	 Which is simply the time is sort of a place where things are placed
[00:05:34 - 00:05:42]	 So that they don't all happen at once in other words, it's viewed as quality list. It's a it's an abstraction
[00:05:42 - 00:05:51]	 In fact, I think when we carry out a complete analysis of time what we're going to discover is that like?
[00:05:51 - 00:05:53]	 matter
[00:05:53 - 00:05:56]	 Time is composed of elemental
[00:05:56 - 00:05:58]	 discrete
[00:05:58 - 00:06:00]	 type
[00:06:00 - 00:06:02]	 You know all matter
[00:06:02 - 00:06:09]	 Organic and inorganic is composed of a hundred and four a hundred and eight elements. There's argument
[00:06:09 - 00:06:13]	 Time on the other hand is thought to be this featureless
[00:06:13 - 00:06:19]	 quality list medium, but in fact as we experience it as
[00:06:19 - 00:06:22]	 living feeling creatures
[00:06:22 - 00:06:30]	 Time has qualities there are times where everything seems to go right and everything seems to go wrong. That's true
[00:06:30 - 00:06:34]	 Adurance that's absolutely true
[00:06:34 - 00:06:40]	 I've wondered about that all my life. There are periods of time where in effect you can do no wrong
[00:06:40 - 00:06:46]	 And and other periods of time where you can do no right no matter what you do
[00:06:46 - 00:06:51]	 Well, so when looking at this I created a vocabulary
[00:06:51 - 00:06:57]	 Actually, I borrowed it from Alfred North Whitehead, but I I think I'm on to something
[00:06:57 - 00:07:00]	 which science has missed and
[00:07:00 - 00:07:10]	 It's this it's that the the universe or a human life or an empire or an ecosystem
[00:07:10 - 00:07:15]	 Any large scale or small scale process?
[00:07:15 - 00:07:22]	 Can be looked upon as a kind of a dynamic struggle between two qualities, which I call
[00:07:22 - 00:07:28]	 Habit and novelty and I think they're pretty self-explanatory
[00:07:28 - 00:07:35]	 I'm sorry habit and what novelty novelty novelty and habit is simply
[00:07:35 - 00:07:38]	 repetition of established pattern
[00:07:38 - 00:07:40]	 conservation
[00:07:41 - 00:07:48]	 Holding back what has already been achieved into a system and novelty is the chance-taking
[00:07:48 - 00:07:52]	 exploratory the new the never before seen and
[00:07:52 - 00:07:55]	 These two qualities
[00:07:55 - 00:08:01]	 Habit and novelty are locked in all situations in a kind of struggle
[00:08:01 - 00:08:08]	 But the good news is that if you look at large scales of time
[00:08:09 - 00:08:17]	 Novelty is winning and this is the point that I have been so concerned to make that I think science has overlooked
[00:08:17 - 00:08:25]	 that if you look back through the history of the human race or of life on this planet or of
[00:08:25 - 00:08:30]	 The solar system and the galaxy as you go backward in time
[00:08:30 - 00:08:32]	 things become more
[00:08:32 - 00:08:34]	 simple more
[00:08:35 - 00:08:42]	 Basic yes, and so turning that on its head we could say as we come toward the present
[00:08:42 - 00:08:45]	 Things become more novel more complex
[00:08:45 - 00:08:50]	 So I've taken this to be actually a universal law
[00:08:50 - 00:08:53]	 affecting historical process
[00:08:53 - 00:08:56]	 biological processes and
[00:08:56 - 00:09:01]	 Astrophysical processes nature produces and
[00:09:01 - 00:09:07]	 Conserve novelty and what I mean by that is as the universe cooled
[00:09:07 - 00:09:09]	 the
[00:09:09 - 00:09:12]	 original cloud of electron plasma
[00:09:12 - 00:09:18]	 Eventually atomic systems formed as it further cooled molecular systems
[00:09:18 - 00:09:22]	 then long chain polymers then
[00:09:22 - 00:09:29]	 Non-nucleated primitive DNA containing life later complex life multicellular life
[00:09:30 - 00:09:37]	 and this is the principle that reaches right up to our dear selves and and notice are it's
[00:09:37 - 00:09:40]	 working across all
[00:09:40 - 00:09:44]	 scales of being this is something that is this true of of
[00:09:44 - 00:09:50]	 human societies as it is of termite populations or populations of
[00:09:50 - 00:09:52]	 atoms in a in a chemical system
[00:09:52 - 00:09:55]	 nature
[00:09:55 - 00:09:57]	 conserves prefers
[00:09:58 - 00:10:04]	 novelty and the interesting thing about an idea like this is it stands the
[00:10:04 - 00:10:10]	 existentialism of modern philosophy on its head, you know what modern atheistic
[00:10:10 - 00:10:14]	 existentialism says is
[00:10:14 - 00:10:21]	 We're a cosmic accident and damn lucky to be here and any meaning you get out of the situation
[00:10:21 - 00:10:23]	 You're simply conferring
[00:10:24 - 00:10:29]	 I say no by looking deeply into the structure of nature
[00:10:29 - 00:10:33]	 We can discover that novelty is what nature
[00:10:33 - 00:10:38]	 produces and conserves and if that represents a
[00:10:38 - 00:10:45]	 Universal value system then the human world as we find it today with our
[00:10:45 - 00:10:47]	 technologies and our complex societies
[00:10:47 - 00:10:53]	 represents the greatest novelty so far achieved
[00:10:53 - 00:10:58]	 And so suddenly you have a basis for an ethic that which
[00:10:58 - 00:11:03]	 Advances novelty is good that which retards it is
[00:11:03 - 00:11:08]	 Is to be looked at very carefully. All right, let me stop you right there
[00:11:08 - 00:11:14]	 One of the first things that you said when we got on the air this morning was that you had a hundred and twenty-eight
[00:11:14 - 00:11:16]	 Baud connection from your mountaintop
[00:11:16 - 00:11:19]	 Secret location, right? Okay
[00:11:21 - 00:11:26]	 As we are discussing your theory, which is fascinating of novelty
[00:11:26 - 00:11:34]	 I'm taken to ask you about a quote actually of several pages written by Michael Crichton
[00:11:34 - 00:11:37]	 And I know you know who he is
[00:11:37 - 00:11:43]	 With reference to the Internet it is Michael Crichton's contention
[00:11:43 - 00:11:46]	 That the Internet which one might consider to be novelty
[00:11:49 - 00:11:53]	 Exemplified in continent indeed is going to result
[00:11:53 - 00:11:58]	 not in more novelty, but in fact in
[00:11:58 - 00:12:01]	 a
[00:12:01 - 00:12:05]	 Slowing of the the process of evolution or novelty as you you see it
[00:12:05 - 00:12:11]	 Because there will be a commonality there will not be innovation. There will not be
[00:12:11 - 00:12:19]	 Entrepreneurship there will be ten main ideas in America and Hong Kong and Moscow and
[00:12:19 - 00:12:21]	 London and so forth
[00:12:21 - 00:12:23]	 How would you address that?
[00:12:23 - 00:12:31]	 Well, I'm astonished. I hardly know what he's talking about. I let me give you my take on okay
[00:12:31 - 00:12:35]	 Let me rephrase it. He's saying the Internet will stifle
[00:12:35 - 00:12:40]	 Diversity and the diversity is critical to advancement
[00:12:40 - 00:12:48]	 Well what I see happening and I spend hours and hours a day on the internet is I believe it's the great force
[00:12:48 - 00:12:50]	 empowering
[00:12:50 - 00:12:53]	 marginal and minority points of view
[00:12:53 - 00:13:00]	 To come along in centuries in other words before the Internet the great
[00:13:00 - 00:13:07]	 establishment ideas already has the machinery of media to communicate their position
[00:13:07 - 00:13:15]	 Sure, what has happened is that the common man has gotten into the game with technology that I really don't think
[00:13:15 - 00:13:20]	 Was ever intended to fall into oh you bet you bet it wasn't
[00:13:20 - 00:13:28]	 Yeah, so I don't know what Crichton is talking about. I believe what the internet is doing is
[00:13:28 - 00:13:31]	 dissolving boundaries
[00:13:31 - 00:13:37]	 Between people's idea systems classes and factions and we're getting a much richer
[00:13:37 - 00:13:44]	 evolutionary interplay among ideas and this sort of thing so I see it as
[00:13:45 - 00:13:51]	 a very fertile place with a lot of mutation going on in hardware in
[00:13:51 - 00:13:55]	 How people view it ideologies this sort of thing?
[00:13:55 - 00:13:58]	 I just don't know where he's coming from well
[00:13:58 - 00:14:03]	 I might I might expand on it this way he suggests for example that if you were to take
[00:14:03 - 00:14:11]	 An otherwise deserted or barren desert island and you were to put a species upon it that species
[00:14:11 - 00:14:14]	 Because there are so few of them
[00:14:15 - 00:14:22]	 Would by necessity be very innovative would change very quickly in trying to adapt and live and stay alive
[00:14:22 - 00:14:29]	 On the other hand if you put many many creatures on that island that process would be far
[00:14:29 - 00:14:34]	 Slower and he uses that as a parallel to the internet. I'm not sure that I agree with it either
[00:14:34 - 00:14:37]	 I just found it an interesting take
[00:14:37 - 00:14:39]	 on the
[00:14:39 - 00:14:40]	 sociological
[00:14:40 - 00:14:46]	 Implications of the internet well you see when people talk about the internet. They're usually talking about the internet
[00:14:46 - 00:14:51]	 That was because it's moving so quickly for example
[00:14:51 - 00:14:56]	 I just read this paper by a guy named Alexander Chislenko out at the Media Lab at MIT
[00:14:56 - 00:15:04]	 And he's talking about plugins that will translate websites of one language into another
[00:15:05 - 00:15:12]	 Well now imagine when people can put up websites in Telugu, Wetoto, Russian, French
[00:15:12 - 00:15:19]	 You name it and you can automatically slide into those websites and see what's going on
[00:15:19 - 00:15:22]	 You're describing Crichton's nightmare and your
[00:15:22 - 00:15:26]	 Best dream I believe
[00:15:26 - 00:15:31]	 This is the thing about technology it tends to polarize people
[00:15:32 - 00:15:36]	 Let me make one point here before we leave this time thing
[00:15:36 - 00:15:42]	 I said I'd identified an tendency in the universe which science had missed which was to conserve
[00:15:42 - 00:15:49]	 Novelty and then you asked about the internet which sort of led me to the second half of the observation
[00:15:49 - 00:15:55]	 Not only does the universe have this preference for novelty, but each
[00:15:56 - 00:16:04]	 Polarization into novelty has proceeded more quickly than the ones which which preceded it
[00:16:04 - 00:16:11]	 So for instance the flow cooling out of the universe led to the slightly more rapid
[00:16:11 - 00:16:18]	 appearance of organic chemistry which led to the quite rapid evolution of higher plants and animals
[00:16:18 - 00:16:21]	 led to the hysterical pace of
[00:16:21 - 00:16:24]	 human history and I
[00:16:25 - 00:16:30]	 See no reason to suppose that that process of acceleration will ever slow down
[00:16:30 - 00:16:34]	 no, isn't it is it Terrence a linear process or a
[00:16:34 - 00:16:38]	 an accelerating exponentially accelerating process
[00:16:38 - 00:16:45]	 It's an exponentially accelerating process which leads to a kind of end of the world
[00:16:45 - 00:16:51]	 Scenario that has made a lot of people place me out with the squirrels because
[00:16:52 - 00:16:57]	 I'm saying that this process of novelty is now moving so quickly
[00:16:57 - 00:17:00]	 That's within our own lifetime
[00:17:00 - 00:17:03]	 It is going to accelerate
[00:17:03 - 00:17:06]	 essentially
[00:17:06 - 00:17:07]	 to such
[00:17:07 - 00:17:14]	 An intensity that we will be experiencing more novelty in a few weeks or days than we've previously
[00:17:14 - 00:17:19]	 Experienced in the whole life of the cosmos. Oh my god, you have described
[00:17:20 - 00:17:25]	 Precisely what I have just written about called I wrote a book called the quickening and
[00:17:25 - 00:17:30]	 Someone showed me your book and I said this is in Atlanta
[00:17:30 - 00:17:34]	 I saw it and and I said yes, this guy is on to this
[00:17:34 - 00:17:42]	 I'm on to it from I guess more of a pedestrian perspective than yourself after listening now
[00:17:42 - 00:17:48]	 To your first half hour Terrence, but we're talking about I it suddenly dawned on me exactly
[00:17:49 - 00:17:55]	 Precisely the same thing. I've been doing this talk radio program for about 13 years, you know, the all-night show right and I am a
[00:17:55 - 00:17:59]	 trained observer of events and people and
[00:17:59 - 00:18:03]	 every night I've had to watch the news and
[00:18:03 - 00:18:10]	 Dissect what is going on in our world to prepare to do this program and in that 13 years
[00:18:10 - 00:18:13]	 unmistakably socially economically
[00:18:14 - 00:18:20]	 Politically environmentally you name it we can talk about it in every one of those areas of human endeavor
[00:18:20 - 00:18:25]	 Things are beginning to accelerate. There is simply
[00:18:25 - 00:18:29]	 No question about it and that sounds exactly
[00:18:29 - 00:18:34]	 What to be the same thing you're proposing
[00:18:34 - 00:18:43]	 Here. Yes where where I've gone further than most people is a lot of people have noticed this the time is speeding up
[00:18:43 - 00:18:46]	 phenomenon but they tend to give credit to
[00:18:46 - 00:18:49]	 science or media or
[00:18:49 - 00:18:57]	 Something like that. That's that's right. Yes. Well what I'm saying is this is built into the laws of physics
[00:18:57 - 00:19:03]	 Oh, I think I think you're right Terrence. We're at the bottom of the hour. I think you're exactly right Terrence. Stay right where you are
[00:19:03 - 00:19:11]	 Interesting very interesting Terrence McKenna from the Big Island of Hawaii is my guest. I'm Art Bell and this is CBC
[00:19:13 - 00:19:18]	 1997 it's art and his guests the late Terrence McKenna and now
[00:19:18 - 00:19:26]	 Enjoy this on gold hour on the best of coast to coast a.m. With art Bell from May of
[00:19:26 - 00:19:32]	 1997 it's art and his guests the late Terrence McKenna and now
[00:19:32 - 00:19:38]	 Enjoy this encore presentation of coast to coast a.m. With art Bell
[00:19:40 - 00:19:46]	 We have a very very interesting fellow on the line. His name is Terrence McKenna and
[00:19:46 - 00:19:49]	 He's from the Big Island of Hawaii
[00:19:49 - 00:19:53]	 And he has just described to me
[00:19:53 - 00:19:55]	 in
[00:19:55 - 00:19:57]	 language that you had to listen very carefully to
[00:19:57 - 00:20:07]	 Exactly what I wrote about the quickening and it will pick up on that in a moment. It's fascinating my guns like hearing my own theory
[00:20:08 - 00:20:12]	 Amplified coming back at me or an explanation of what I wrote about
[00:20:12 - 00:20:14]	 Wow
[00:20:14 - 00:20:16]	 Anyway in a moment back
[00:20:16 - 00:20:22]	 Some cases
[00:20:22 - 00:20:28]	 Back now to Hawaii and Terrence McKenna Terrence
[00:20:28 - 00:20:34]	 I thought we lost you for a moment, but I think we have you back. Are you there? Oh, yeah, okay
[00:20:35 - 00:20:41]	 There will be silences during the break. So do not interpret that as we have disconnected Terrence only if you get a dial tone
[00:20:41 - 00:20:43]	 Are we in trouble?
[00:20:43 - 00:20:47]	 Otherwise just hang in there. Okay. Alrighty. All right
[00:20:47 - 00:20:54]	 Um, I mean I sat here as I listened to you the first half hour in shock because I realized
[00:20:54 - 00:20:58]	 you were describing exactly what I wrote about and
[00:20:58 - 00:21:05]	 What I did Terrence I realized that a lot of people say this quickening or whatever you want to call it
[00:21:05 - 00:21:07]	 Whatever name you want to put to it
[00:21:07 - 00:21:09]	 is a byproduct of
[00:21:09 - 00:21:12]	 mass communication and I began to realize
[00:21:12 - 00:21:18]	 Uh-uh. No, it is not a product of mass communication. Yes. We're hearing about it
[00:21:18 - 00:21:19]	 more
[00:21:19 - 00:21:21]	 And more volumes of it
[00:21:21 - 00:21:28]	 But in fact in fact what you are describing is really going on and I documented that
[00:21:28 - 00:21:34]	 much in my book in real everyday life in in each one of these areas and many more I
[00:21:34 - 00:21:37]	 Documented the fact that it is not
[00:21:37 - 00:21:39]	 mass communication
[00:21:39 - 00:21:43]	 That is beginning to quicken things, but there is another process at work now
[00:21:43 - 00:21:49]	 I don't know what that is and I don't know where it's leading. In other words people will say well
[00:21:49 - 00:21:54]	 What when we finally get to this crunch point, whatever that is
[00:21:56 - 00:22:00]	 What will happen and I don't have that answer I'm just a talk show host an observer
[00:22:00 - 00:22:05]	 But maybe you do when we finally reach what you call
[00:22:05 - 00:22:07]	 time wave zero
[00:22:07 - 00:22:11]	 What is going to happen
[00:22:11 - 00:22:17]	 Well, the only way to predict what's going to happen is to look at the quality of what has happened
[00:22:17 - 00:22:21]	 As the quickening as you call it has begun to accelerate
[00:22:21 - 00:22:25]	 what it's been characterized by is
[00:22:26 - 00:22:29]	 dissolution of boundaries between
[00:22:29 - 00:22:31]	 classes of people
[00:22:31 - 00:22:39]	 bodies of knowledge pools of capital language groups so forth and so on and so it seems to me
[00:22:39 - 00:22:42]	 ultimate novelty must be a
[00:22:42 - 00:22:45]	 situation where all boundaries are
[00:22:45 - 00:22:52]	 Dissolved and of course what that looks like. I don't know. I don't know whether it's a virtual reality
[00:22:52 - 00:22:55]	 Where you become God?
[00:22:55 - 00:22:57]	 through the public utilities or
[00:22:57 - 00:22:59]	 exactly
[00:22:59 - 00:23:02]	 what it is, but it's clear to me that the
[00:23:02 - 00:23:05]	 human nervous system is
[00:23:05 - 00:23:11]	 Globalizing itself building a model of conscious thought on a planetary scale
[00:23:11 - 00:23:17]	 tens of thousands of people are participating in this none of them have a real
[00:23:18 - 00:23:25]	 notion what it's all about but everyone is serving this sort of unfolding grand design and
[00:23:25 - 00:23:30]	 You know, I think the emergence of alphabet was part of the quickening
[00:23:30 - 00:23:36]	 I think the emergence of hominids out of more primitive primates was part of this quickening
[00:23:36 - 00:23:42]	 I think this is the business that this planet has been about for a very very long time
[00:23:42 - 00:23:46]	 Are you able to discern
[00:23:47 - 00:23:49]	 any timelines
[00:23:49 - 00:23:52]	 to
[00:23:52 - 00:23:58]	 Timeline zero. Well, yes, I mean we've been talking about this as a metaphor what makes me
[00:23:58 - 00:24:03]	 I hope a little different from some of the other process in the marketplace is
[00:24:03 - 00:24:07]	 I've got a formal mathematical
[00:24:07 - 00:24:13]	 Theory that you know, I mentioned habits and novelty this
[00:24:14 - 00:24:19]	 Dualistic flow. Yes. Well because it is a dualistic flow. It can be portrayed like
[00:24:19 - 00:24:27]	 The ebb and flow of the price of the stock or something like that. In other words, it can be portrayed as a line graph
[00:24:27 - 00:24:35]	 So I've written computer programs which produce what I call novelty waves in other words
[00:24:35 - 00:24:38]	 timescales
[00:24:38 - 00:24:44]	 Waves that picture the ebb and flow of novelty and by getting known
[00:24:44 - 00:24:47]	 historical and paleontological
[00:24:47 - 00:24:56]	 And geological data against these waves at different scales. I was able to finally discern a best fit
[00:24:56 - 00:25:03]	 But the conclusion that it led to was even well was very startling to me
[00:25:03 - 00:25:09]	 Which is this ultimate novelty this transcendental object at the end of time isn't
[00:25:09 - 00:25:13]	 millennia in the future it is in fact
[00:25:13 - 00:25:21]	 Slated to collide with historical necessities sometime in late 2012
[00:25:21 - 00:25:28]	 2012 2012 now, I know you have some interest in the Mayan calendar
[00:25:28 - 00:25:36]	 I do I didn't know when I calculated this date that it was the same end date as the Mayan
[00:25:36 - 00:25:41]	 Calendar to the day. Oh my let me ask you this Terrence. What did you?
[00:25:41 - 00:25:46]	 Input to your database
[00:25:46 - 00:25:53]	 To for this computer program in other words, what did I start with? Yeah. Yeah. Yes
[00:25:53 - 00:25:59]	 Well, I started I had a very academic interest in the chain
[00:25:59 - 00:26:03]	 which is the Chinese method of divination and
[00:26:03 - 00:26:05]	 This is you know
[00:26:05 - 00:26:11]	 everyone who's looked at this thing has been struck by the fact that it seems to work and
[00:26:11 - 00:26:14]	 So I carried out a mathematical analysis
[00:26:14 - 00:26:21]	 Wait, I don't know what Ching is and I bet a lot of other people don't either a Chinese method of divining
[00:26:21 - 00:26:26]	 What what kind of method what is it? Well, it's existed for thousands of years in China
[00:26:26 - 00:26:33]	 It's sometimes done by throwing it at 50 stocks or sometimes done with coins
[00:26:33 - 00:26:37]	 but it's a method of producing a
[00:26:37 - 00:26:43]	 Thing called a hexagram which is made up of either broken or unbroken lines
[00:26:43 - 00:26:46]	 But six on top of each other
[00:26:46 - 00:26:53]	 So if you're a mathematician you can figure if it's made up of broken and unbroken lines
[00:26:53 - 00:26:59]	 and there's six of them on top of each other there must be a possibility of 64 of these things and
[00:26:59 - 00:27:08]	 Thousands of years ago in China. There was a vast body of literary commentary built up around these
[00:27:08 - 00:27:13]	 hexagrams and they have always been presented in a traditional
[00:27:14 - 00:27:17]	 Order a certain way that they are always
[00:27:17 - 00:27:23]	 Presented and I was studying a very academic question
[00:27:23 - 00:27:29]	 Which is is this order of these hexagrams a true order in other words?
[00:27:29 - 00:27:36]	 governed by rules or is it simply a random jumble sanctioned by tradition and
[00:27:37 - 00:27:44]	 this very obscure academic question led ultimately to the discovery that the each thing was a
[00:27:44 - 00:27:53]	 384 days 13 lunar cycle calendar and then from there I realized that this
[00:27:53 - 00:27:58]	 384 day calendar was actually a nested
[00:27:58 - 00:28:05]	 subset in a fractal time keeping scheme that was really more accurate and more
[00:28:05 - 00:28:07]	 sophisticated than anything
[00:28:07 - 00:28:13]	 In the West so what I'm really suggesting here is that in the same way that the West
[00:28:13 - 00:28:17]	 conquered the nature of matter through the
[00:28:17 - 00:28:20]	 elaboration of modern science
[00:28:20 - 00:28:28]	 about 4,000 years ago in China a deeper analysis of time was carried out than
[00:28:28 - 00:28:35]	 Then has ever been undertaken in the West plane. It's quite Oh Terrence
[00:28:35 - 00:28:37]	 What is your website?
[00:28:37 - 00:28:39]	 It's that levity. It's
[00:28:39 - 00:28:40]	 triple w
[00:28:40 - 00:28:47]	 Dot levity calm and then just click on parents McKenna there levity is le v
[00:28:47 - 00:28:50]	 ITY so it's a it's
[00:28:50 - 00:28:56]	 Www.levity.com correct. I will get a link up shortly
[00:28:56 - 00:29:00]	 Well, I think you do I visited a web site today. You've got good people
[00:29:00 - 00:29:07]	 You know Keith is he does a wonderful job. All right. Well, so then you you get there and then just click on Terrence McKenna and
[00:29:07 - 00:29:10]	 Be sure you're buckled in from the sound of what I've heard so far
[00:29:10 - 00:29:19]	 Well, the interesting thing you see art is with the wave like that you can do what's called
[00:29:19 - 00:29:26]	 Retrofitting in other words if you have a wave of novelty that describes the past. Yes, you have to
[00:29:27 - 00:29:31]	 correctly predict the Italian Renaissance the Greek Enlightenment
[00:29:31 - 00:29:38]	 the modernity of the 20th century and so by predicting the past we've gained
[00:29:38 - 00:29:43]	 Confidence that this wave predicts the future that sounds quite scientific
[00:29:43 - 00:29:50]	 In other words science is repeatability and if you can repeatedly demonstrate that you can mathematically show the events of the past
[00:29:50 - 00:29:55]	 Then yes, I would imagine you could project. Well, so I've been at this since
[00:29:56 - 00:29:57]	 1975
[00:29:57 - 00:30:04]	 But I the theory is in a sense very conservative. It never says what will happen
[00:30:04 - 00:30:11]	 It says when when it was the same things are highly likely and when you're just wasting your time
[00:30:11 - 00:30:13]	 Uh-huh
[00:30:13 - 00:30:18]	 When you look out or project out toward 2012
[00:30:18 - 00:30:22]	 What is the
[00:30:22 - 00:30:25]	 magnitude of the spike or the difference
[00:30:25 - 00:30:28]	 There if you can give us an idea of magnitudes
[00:30:28 - 00:30:36]	 Along the way there is only one point in the entire cycle where the level of habit
[00:30:36 - 00:30:38]	 drops to zero
[00:30:38 - 00:30:44]	 effectively then novelty becomes infinite and that point occurs on
[00:30:44 - 00:30:51]	 This false this date in 2012 now. It's very interesting. There are some people on the net called
[00:30:51 - 00:30:54]	 singularis and
[00:30:54 - 00:30:56]	 They're hardheaded
[00:30:56 - 00:31:02]	 Engineering types and they take things like rate of energy release rate of data storage
[00:31:02 - 00:31:10]	 This sort of thing and draw all their curves out and they conclude that sometime between
[00:31:10 - 00:31:12]	 2008 and 2020
[00:31:12 - 00:31:17]	 Everything we produce infinite amounts of energy
[00:31:17 - 00:31:24]	 We pack infinite amounts of data into infinitely small spaces in other words this same sort of thing where?
[00:31:24 - 00:31:27]	 because of the acceleration
[00:31:27 - 00:31:29]	 built in to the
[00:31:29 - 00:31:35]	 Unfolding of this novelty process. We're gonna cross more territory between here in 2012
[00:31:35 - 00:31:39]	 Then we've crossed between the Big Bang and getting to here
[00:31:39 - 00:31:42]	 That's an incredible thought
[00:31:42 - 00:31:46]	 It kind of explains what's happening, you know
[00:31:46 - 00:31:52]	 That it isn't the it isn't the old-style religion that it isn't the sterile
[00:31:52 - 00:31:58]	 Steady state of science. It's that the universe is actually
[00:31:58 - 00:32:01]	 involved in some kind of process of self
[00:32:01 - 00:32:04]	 metamorphosis and
[00:32:04 - 00:32:09]	 Human beings indicate that we have crossed some boundary into a new
[00:32:11 - 00:32:18]	 Era a new epoch of ever greater acceleration into this process of self revelation
[00:32:18 - 00:32:21]	 I mean, this is what religions are raving about
[00:32:21 - 00:32:28]	 This is what every prophet on the street corner is trying to articulate and no question. I think it's real
[00:32:28 - 00:32:35]	 I think we're getting a lot of static because people can only deal with it through images that they know
[00:32:35 - 00:32:41]	 You know Marshall McLuhan once said we drive into the future using only our rearview mirror
[00:32:41 - 00:32:49]	 and that's sort of what it is that I call this thing the transcendental object at the end of time and
[00:32:49 - 00:32:55]	 I think you know in a sense religion and Christian revelation. It will all be
[00:32:55 - 00:33:02]	 Fulfilled in a way none of us ever suspected because nature has this
[00:33:03 - 00:33:07]	 appetite for novelty and acceleration into novelty and
[00:33:07 - 00:33:13]	 So then again I asked at this moment that we speak of
[00:33:13 - 00:33:19]	 2012 right. What do you actually think will occur?
[00:33:19 - 00:33:29]	 Well, I thought about this a good deal and they're hard and soft and very honest, but I've noticed that what the time wave seems most
[00:33:31 - 00:33:38]	 Inherently able to track is technology somehow technology is very important
[00:33:38 - 00:33:43]	 It's the transformation of the human relationship to the world through tools
[00:33:43 - 00:33:49]	 And so what I'm thinking would fulfill this entire scenario without requiring
[00:33:49 - 00:33:53]	 God Almighty to put in an appearance is
[00:33:53 - 00:33:57]	 Time-travel I think that
[00:33:57 - 00:34:00]	 We are moving towards
[00:34:01 - 00:34:07]	 You know if you look at biology over huge scale time hundreds of millions of years
[00:34:07 - 00:34:14]	 It is a kind of conquest of dimensionality. All right, let's let's consider that
[00:34:14 - 00:34:22]	 Somebody recently said and I have been considering since I heard it a very simple question if time travel is
[00:34:22 - 00:34:26]	 Possible then where are the time travelers?
[00:34:27 - 00:34:35]	 Well when I asked that question to my sources, they said you you can only travel as far back into the past as
[00:34:35 - 00:34:43]	 The moment of the invention of the first time machine because before that there were no time machine
[00:34:43 - 00:34:53]	 That I but let me think about that does that make sense you could only travel back to the moment of the invention of the
[00:34:53 - 00:34:55]	 time machine
[00:34:56 - 00:34:57]	 Because prior to that
[00:34:57 - 00:35:02]	 There was no capability. It's like trying to drive where there are no roads
[00:35:02 - 00:35:06]	 Yeah, it also means when you invent the first time machine
[00:35:06 - 00:35:15]	 Instantly time machines will appear by the tens of thousands having come back through time to see the first flight into time
[00:35:15 - 00:35:25]	 That's incredible I never that's a whole new line of thought for me about about that question
[00:35:25 - 00:35:28]	 And it might make sense
[00:35:28 - 00:35:31]	 It might make sense
[00:35:31 - 00:35:35]	 And your analogy is trying to that you cannot drive in essence
[00:35:35 - 00:35:39]	 Where there are no where there are no roads
[00:35:39 - 00:35:42]	 Well, of course you nearly do that when you go home from the broadcast here
[00:35:42 - 00:35:46]	 But and you haven't even been up to see me you're okay
[00:35:50 - 00:35:57]	 We're very proud of our bad roads I understand it keeps the riffraff away as it certainly does
[00:35:57 - 00:36:01]	 It doesn't keep the riffraff away, but it keeps everybody else away
[00:36:01 - 00:36:05]	 How long
[00:36:05 - 00:36:08]	 Terrence have you been residing on the side of the volcano there?
[00:36:08 - 00:36:15]	 Well continuously for about three and a half years. I've had land out here for about well since 77
[00:36:15 - 00:36:19]	 since 77 and before that I
[00:36:20 - 00:36:23]	 lived I grew up in western Colorado and I
[00:36:23 - 00:36:27]	 Had my children and my marriage and all that in
[00:36:27 - 00:36:31]	 California lived 35 years in Northern, California
[00:36:31 - 00:36:33]	 uh-huh um
[00:36:33 - 00:36:36]	 You
[00:36:36 - 00:36:38]	 You knew
[00:36:38 - 00:36:44]	 Timothy Leary yes, I knew him we appeared in public mostly in Europe
[00:36:44 - 00:36:52]	 Together a few times and he certainly was a huge influence on me. I only came to know him in the pet in the past
[00:36:52 - 00:36:57]	 Seven or eight years, but as the kid growing up in the 60s
[00:36:57 - 00:37:01]	 He was an enormous influence on me. You are now being called by many
[00:37:01 - 00:37:06]	 His heir apparent his heir now, I guess well
[00:37:06 - 00:37:11]	 I think not by many but I was called it by him everybody else kept their mouth shut
[00:37:14 - 00:37:20]	 Well I have my method I'm very interested in the psychedelic experience I
[00:37:20 - 00:37:28]	 was raised Catholic and what I kept of that was an enormous thirst for
[00:37:28 - 00:37:30]	 the paranormal the miraculous
[00:37:30 - 00:37:32]	 supernatural yes
[00:37:32 - 00:37:39]	 And I went to India and I made the rounds of the gurus and the geishas
[00:37:39 - 00:37:46]	 And I didn't find what I was looking for but when I went to South America to the jungles down there I
[00:37:46 - 00:37:48]	 discovered that
[00:37:48 - 00:37:54]	 LSD was only the tip of the psychedelic iceberg and what I had taken to be
[00:37:54 - 00:38:00]	 modern science and modern chemistry was actually a tradition of
[00:38:00 - 00:38:07]	 shamanism and religious use of psychedelic plants that was thousands and thousands of years old and
[00:38:08 - 00:38:13]	 That fascinated me because I actually it worked for me
[00:38:13 - 00:38:19]	 most people who see the mystery with
[00:38:19 - 00:38:24]	 Listen let us pick this up after the top of the hour now listen to me carefully
[00:38:24 - 00:38:28]	 You've got about a 10-minute break here at least and you're not going to hear anything
[00:38:28 - 00:38:34]	 Don't let it bother you just put phone down grab a cup coffee or something or another and we'll be back to you
[00:38:34 - 00:38:37]	 Okay, all right stay right there. This is CBC
[00:38:37 - 00:38:42]	 This hour on the best of coast to coast am with art Bell
[00:38:42 - 00:38:48]	 97 it's art and his guests the late Terrence McKenna and now
[00:38:48 - 00:38:55]	 Enjoy this encore presentation of coast to coast am with the lines are
[00:38:55 - 00:38:57]	 absolutely alive and
[00:38:57 - 00:39:02]	 Everybody out there just relax for a little while I have some advice for you
[00:39:02 - 00:39:08]	 My guest is a very very unusual person whose name is Terrence McKenna
[00:39:08 - 00:39:16]	 In order to properly appreciate what you're about to hear if you're just joining us in Los Angeles San Francisco and so forth
[00:39:16 - 00:39:20]	 You're going to have to pretty much put down whatever you're doing
[00:39:20 - 00:39:28]	 I'll turn the radio off a little bit and listen very carefully because it makes a lot of sense
[00:39:28 - 00:39:30]	 But you've got to listen carefully
[00:39:31 - 00:39:38]	 Terrence McKenna will find out more about him in a moment lives on the side of a an active volcano in Hawaii
[00:39:38 - 00:39:44]	 An interesting place to choose to live by itself and an interesting man indeed
[00:39:44 - 00:39:47]	 So Terrence more appearance McKenna coming up
[00:39:47 - 00:39:49]	 Oh
[00:39:49 - 00:40:10]	 Art have you heard about Terrence McKenna's theory called time wave zero?
[00:40:10 - 00:40:17]	 He suggests that as we get closer to time wave zero we are experiencing tacking on radiation from it
[00:40:17 - 00:40:22]	 Evidently the impending event is so colossal that it will emit such intense
[00:40:22 - 00:40:29]	 Radiation that some of it takes the form of faster than light speed tacking on particles or waves which?
[00:40:29 - 00:40:35]	 Can travel faster than light and that they're actually being hurdled backward in time
[00:40:35 - 00:40:41]	 the closer we get to the event the greater the radiation density hence the more frequently and
[00:40:41 - 00:40:47]	 Intensely we experience paranormal phenomena associated with it. We'll ask about that by the way
[00:40:47 - 00:40:49]	 We haven't yet. This could be the mechanism behind
[00:40:49 - 00:40:56]	 What you call the quickening the event we are approaching will probably be something ten amount to a
[00:40:56 - 00:41:01]	 White hole or a mini Big Bang it will for all intents and purposes
[00:41:02 - 00:41:09]	 Be the end of time for us Terrence believes it will occur consistent with the Mayan calendar in the year
[00:41:09 - 00:41:12]	 2012 now by the way he has derived this
[00:41:12 - 00:41:16]	 Independently of the Mayan calendar
[00:41:16 - 00:41:20]	 He simply has discovered that it coincides with it
[00:41:20 - 00:41:26]	 He goes on it is not unreasonable to assume that et's possessing UFOs if they exist
[00:41:26 - 00:41:29]	 We'll be flocking here to research or rather
[00:41:29 - 00:41:37]	 Research the phenomenon it is also believed that tacking on bombardment would have bizarre effects on the human nervous system
[00:41:37 - 00:41:43]	 Visions that sort of thing as well as physical manifestations in the environment like the clear water virgin
[00:41:43 - 00:41:48]	 Bizarre mutations like the chupacabra and heaven knows what else all
[00:41:48 - 00:41:55]	 The stuff you attribute to the quickening might be explained by this and after listening to the first hour
[00:41:55 - 00:42:03]	 I must agree Terrence. I'm stealing one more bit of time to read you a fact that I think relates and challenges
[00:42:03 - 00:42:06]	 You a little bit it is from Stephen in Wichita. It's well thought out
[00:42:06 - 00:42:15]	 Here it is aren't I'm not sure that you can equate novelty with either acceleration or complexity a
[00:42:15 - 00:42:18]	 nature has always been novel and
[00:42:19 - 00:42:26]	 Surprisingly so considering earlier periods in Earth's history given that over 90% of all species
[00:42:26 - 00:42:33]	 That have ever lived are now extinct and the exotic body designs. It would seem novelty is a given
[00:42:33 - 00:42:40]	 But in order to be effective it must have a survival advantage and be passed on once the novelty becomes a hindrance
[00:42:40 - 00:42:43]	 It disappears
[00:42:43 - 00:42:46]	 Acceleration may be more a factor of population density
[00:42:47 - 00:42:54]	 Virtually all of the social problems we face today have been duplicated years ago in rat population density studies
[00:42:54 - 00:43:01]	 our novel inventions of this century have simply allowed us to artificially compress distance and time
[00:43:01 - 00:43:04]	 by modes of travel and communications
[00:43:04 - 00:43:12]	 profit motives have directed and limited the novelty of our civilization in this century as never before and we're becoming a
[00:43:13 - 00:43:18]	 Hindrance the higher the population density the more the acceleration seems to be
[00:43:18 - 00:43:27]	 Anecdotal but relative compare the pace of a small country town to a large city with its population density and resulting problems
[00:43:27 - 00:43:30]	 accelerated by stress and
[00:43:30 - 00:43:35]	 Profit motives that's from Steve in Wichita. What do you think Terrence?
[00:43:35 - 00:43:38]	 Well, I don't disagree with all of that
[00:43:38 - 00:43:44]	 I think there's certainly been the admin flow of novelty within the 20th century
[00:43:44 - 00:43:47]	 Parts of it more novel than others
[00:43:47 - 00:43:55]	 But I think to argue that it isn't among the most novel periods in time is the pretty uphill battle
[00:43:55 - 00:43:58]	 the question is whether
[00:43:58 - 00:44:02]	 Novelty is something which simply adheres to
[00:44:02 - 00:44:07]	 Statistical dynamics or whether it's a real
[00:44:08 - 00:44:13]	 Direction a real arrow that is directing process and that's what I maintain
[00:44:13 - 00:44:16]	 I think it's not true to say that
[00:44:16 - 00:44:24]	 The biota of the earth today is not more novel than it was in the past certainly there are
[00:44:24 - 00:44:29]	 novel forms of life which have on undergone extinction, but the
[00:44:29 - 00:44:32]	 proliferation of
[00:44:32 - 00:44:40]	 Human life which is an advanced animal plus a culture creating creature indicates to me that we're at a level
[00:44:40 - 00:44:44]	 Of novelty that this planet has never before experienced of course
[00:44:44 - 00:44:52]	 It's it's an arguable thing because history which is what we're always comparing these waves to is not yet a quantified
[00:44:52 - 00:44:56]	 Thing I mean how do you rate the war of the roses over?
[00:44:56 - 00:44:59]	 Queen Anne's war or something like that
[00:45:00 - 00:45:05]	 But nevertheless though we don't have an absolute quantification of history
[00:45:05 - 00:45:13]	 There is general agreement among historians that events like the Renaissance the Greek Golden Age the 20th century are
[00:45:13 - 00:45:19]	 periods where a great deal of novelty and social forms and technologies was
[00:45:19 - 00:45:24]	 Concentrated all right you put together a computer program
[00:45:24 - 00:45:26]	 which
[00:45:26 - 00:45:33]	 Which was able to trace the ebb and the flow of this novelty and in effect chart major
[00:45:33 - 00:45:35]	 events in history
[00:45:35 - 00:45:38]	 How many if I might ask?
[00:45:38 - 00:45:40]	 hits and misses
[00:45:40 - 00:45:45]	 As you as you thought when you got this in final development, and then you look at each point in history
[00:45:45 - 00:45:52]	 How many hits and misses were there any misses in the model or did you hit each?
[00:45:52 - 00:45:55]	 major moment in history on the nose
[00:45:56 - 00:46:01]	 Well by my understanding of this theory there can be no misses in other words
[00:46:01 - 00:46:08]	 It's not a statistical theory. We're not okay if we're right two-thirds of the time here here
[00:46:08 - 00:46:12]	 So we have to be right all the time, so you're telling me you are I?
[00:46:12 - 00:46:19]	 Submit to you and to the world for your examination and critiquing the fact that yes the time wave
[00:46:19 - 00:46:23]	 with its end point in December 21st 2012
[00:46:24 - 00:46:30]	 Described with as great an accuracy as I am able to discern the actual
[00:46:30 - 00:46:36]	 Vastitudes of novelty and habit in history and natural history. That's the claim. That's right
[00:46:36 - 00:46:41]	 Terrence have you submitted this I mean this is serious science that you're discussing
[00:46:41 - 00:46:48]	 Have you submitted that because of its repeatability? That's science now. Have you submitted this to peer review?
[00:46:49 - 00:46:56]	 Well among mathematicians yes, and there's a lively debate raging on the internet about that
[00:46:56 - 00:46:59]	 Let me say something though here about
[00:46:59 - 00:47:08]	 science and why the acceptance of the time wave can't really occur under the tent of ordinary science
[00:47:08 - 00:47:11]	 You have mentioned repeatability
[00:47:12 - 00:47:19]	 Repeatability is the idea at the very basis of the scientific method at the very basis of experiment
[00:47:19 - 00:47:21]	 That's right. What's called?
[00:47:21 - 00:47:23]	 restoration of initial condition
[00:47:23 - 00:47:28]	 But now notice that what the time wave theory is saying is
[00:47:28 - 00:47:35]	 That every moment in time is a unique moment is unique and not and will not a specific
[00:47:36 - 00:47:43]	 Excuse me specifically repeat, but what you're suggesting is that you can plot the highs of novelty
[00:47:43 - 00:47:48]	 Throughout history. Yes, you can but you cannot
[00:47:48 - 00:47:52]	 You cannot assume
[00:47:52 - 00:47:56]	 That you're doing it probabilistically in other words
[00:47:56 - 00:48:01]	 Essentially when you really understand philosophically what the time wave is saying
[00:48:01 - 00:48:07]	 It's an enormous attack on probability theory, you know the way science works
[00:48:07 - 00:48:14]	 Now is if you want to know how much energy is flowing through a wire you take a thousand measurements
[00:48:14 - 00:48:20]	 You add them together and you divide by a thousand and then you have the current flowing through the wire
[00:48:20 - 00:48:22]	 but notice that that
[00:48:22 - 00:48:27]	 assumes that it doesn't matter what time you make the measurement and
[00:48:27 - 00:48:32]	 So much of science is like this to the point where I am redefining
[00:48:32 - 00:48:36]	 Science and saying science is the study of those phenomena
[00:48:36 - 00:48:43]	 so coarse grained that the time in which they occurred does not affect them and
[00:48:43 - 00:48:48]	 That leaves out then history love affairs corporate takeovers
[00:48:48 - 00:48:53]	 Empire building everything interesting in the human world is too
[00:48:55 - 00:49:03]	 Tragile to finally embedded in the context of its time to be open to that kind of scientific modeling
[00:49:03 - 00:49:06]	 so so so in other words
[00:49:06 - 00:49:09]	 They're really relatively small
[00:49:09 - 00:49:15]	 insignificant events that don't enter into the larger measurements you're making of this
[00:49:15 - 00:49:22]	 Ed and flow well, for instance on a given day when the chart says
[00:49:22 - 00:49:29]	 Novelty will be high certainly somewhere in the world. Someone is having a very un-novel day
[00:49:29 - 00:49:33]	 It's a statistical thing of a bell curve
[00:49:33 - 00:49:39]	 No reference to you are you but a bell curve where when the wave is predicting high novelty?
[00:49:39 - 00:49:47]	 Most people most systems will experience that novelty, but of course some will not it's the idea that
[00:49:49 - 00:49:56]	 Novelty is ebbing and flowing, you know when you study the first thing they teach you is when you flip a coin the odds are
[00:49:56 - 00:50:03]	 50/50 heads or tails if that were true the coin would land on its edge every single time
[00:50:03 - 00:50:08]	 That's the rarest of all results in a coin toss indeed
[00:50:08 - 00:50:11]	 So what's really happening is that what are called?
[00:50:11 - 00:50:17]	 Secondary and tertiary factors are causing the coin to be heads or tails
[00:50:17 - 00:50:25]	 I say no there are zones in time where heads are favored and zones in time where tails are favored
[00:50:25 - 00:50:31]	 The idea that time can be described as a perfectly smooth surface and then dealt with
[00:50:31 - 00:50:35]	 Statistically is just the first half with Greek
[00:50:35 - 00:50:41]	 idealism and the careful examination of nature shows it to be inadequate in the same way that
[00:50:42 - 00:50:48]	 Perfect circles were inadequate for describing planetary motion you are therefore saying that conventional science
[00:50:48 - 00:50:56]	 Does not have and cannot have with its present course of investigation and a proper understanding of time
[00:50:56 - 00:51:01]	 That's right because it assumes that it is to be analyzed with statistics and that
[00:51:01 - 00:51:08]	 Flattened out and denies the difference among various times and types of time
[00:51:08 - 00:51:11]	 Terrence how long have you been working on this?
[00:51:12 - 00:51:14]	 since 1971
[00:51:14 - 00:51:17]	 71 yeah
[00:51:17 - 00:51:26]	 What is your you told me that you're originally from Colorado family and all that back in Colorado right then finally exile
[00:51:26 - 00:51:30]	 Well essentially yes, and I got myself to the University of California
[00:51:30 - 00:51:37]	 At Berkeley right at the time of the anti-war movement and all of that
[00:51:37 - 00:51:41]	 it was like a kid in a cultural candy store and
[00:51:41 - 00:51:43]	 studied
[00:51:43 - 00:51:46]	 Philosophy our histories and then went off to Asia
[00:51:46 - 00:51:51]	 basically to check out the hash dens and the gurus and
[00:51:51 - 00:51:56]	 The hash was fine, but the gurus just wanted into my pocket
[00:51:56 - 00:52:05]	 And so then I went to South America and as I mentioned that's where this shamanism thing just really grabbed me
[00:52:05 - 00:52:07]	 I'm part of South America Terrence
[00:52:07 - 00:52:10]	 Southern Columbia the Putumayo River Basin
[00:52:10 - 00:52:12]	 and
[00:52:12 - 00:52:17]	 You know the it's the psychedelic plants that are so
[00:52:17 - 00:52:22]	 Fascinating to me because you mentioned repeatability
[00:52:22 - 00:52:30]	 Here's the technology a technique that lets you repeatedly and with relative safety
[00:52:30 - 00:52:38]	 journey into alien worlds filled with alien forms of intelligence and it's the only thing I found that
[00:52:39 - 00:52:41]	 Does that in other words I've?
[00:52:41 - 00:52:43]	 investigated
[00:52:43 - 00:52:47]	 flying saucers crop circles this the map I it doesn't
[00:52:47 - 00:52:49]	 Turn me on but no
[00:52:49 - 00:52:56]	 Let me quickly stop you there and ask you about crop circles many many people feel
[00:52:56 - 00:53:00]	 That they are fractal in nature and if you're on the internet. I know you've seen
[00:53:00 - 00:53:07]	 Photographs of some of the more amazing ones don't end some of the rest of them. They do appear to be fractal
[00:53:08 - 00:53:10]	 What is your thinking there?
[00:53:10 - 00:53:14]	 Well, I was thinking you know, I don't think it's been published in this country
[00:53:14 - 00:53:19]	 But this wonderful book called around in circles by Jim Schnabel
[00:53:19 - 00:53:25]	 To my mind that blows the lid off the whole crop circle thing
[00:53:25 - 00:53:28]	 You and I could spend the whole evening art
[00:53:28 - 00:53:30]	 discussing
[00:53:30 - 00:53:35]	 the relationship of the media to the human psyche to
[00:53:35 - 00:53:38]	 how people handle evidence and
[00:53:38 - 00:53:46]	 Because I really think the the psychedelic community has evidence to give on these
[00:53:46 - 00:53:52]	 Paranormal questions that has never been properly heard and evaluated because the ordinary
[00:53:52 - 00:53:58]	 Society's attitude towards people who use psychedelics is that they are automatically
[00:53:59 - 00:54:07]	 reliable, yes, I know but I think we're not gonna crack stuff like UFO abductions and that sort of thing unless we
[00:54:07 - 00:54:15]	 Admit the psychedelic evidence and if we do admit it suddenly the whole thing begins to look very very different
[00:54:15 - 00:54:17]	 All right, Terrence. I don't reject it
[00:54:17 - 00:54:19]	 And a lot of guests that I've had on
[00:54:19 - 00:54:23]	 Who have been into the very same areas were in right now
[00:54:23 - 00:54:27]	 very politically correctly
[00:54:28 - 00:54:32]	 Rejected out of hand we don't you don't need it to accomplish this
[00:54:32 - 00:54:38]	 They say that you can do it within yourself and I don't reject that thought either
[00:54:38 - 00:54:41]	 But I would like to hear the case that you would present
[00:54:41 - 00:54:47]	 For for psychedelic psychedelics opening the doors that you're talking about
[00:54:47 - 00:54:50]	 That in fact they do
[00:54:50 - 00:54:55]	 Well, how would you make that case? Well, I hear what you're saying is you're equating
[00:54:56 - 00:55:03]	 Spiritual techniques like yoga and prayer and exactly and that sort of thing. I'm not sure there's the connection
[00:55:03 - 00:55:09]	 I mean it does help to be an ethical person to take psychedelic, but
[00:55:09 - 00:55:16]	 For instance the psychedelic that has fascinated me most over the years is DMT
[00:55:16 - 00:55:21]	 Dimethyltryptamine now, this is not a well-known substance. No, it isn't. What is it?
[00:55:21 - 00:55:28]	 Well, that's what it is dimethyltryptamine it occurs in a number of plant species throughout the world
[00:55:28 - 00:55:30]	 it's utilized by native peoples and
[00:55:30 - 00:55:37]	 In the pure form out of the laboratory when you smoke this stuff
[00:55:37 - 00:55:43]	 You find yourself inside the flying saucer that all these dazzled people are
[00:55:43 - 00:55:51]	 Raving about but you found yourself there by initiating an action on your own
[00:55:51 - 00:55:57]	 In other words repeatability and after about three minutes of spending time with the self-transforming
[00:55:57 - 00:56:00]	 machines and their
[00:56:00 - 00:56:06]	 Technologies you're deposited back in your apartment pretty much none the worse for wear
[00:56:06 - 00:56:15]	 Well now let's give this stuff to the leading lights of the UFO community or anyone else who has an interest in
[00:56:15 - 00:56:17]	 unusual psychological
[00:56:17 - 00:56:18]	 or
[00:56:18 - 00:56:20]	 paranormal phenomena
[00:56:20 - 00:56:26]	 Alright, alright hold tight Terrence. We're at another break point. Terrence McKenna is my guest
[00:56:26 - 00:56:29]	 What a totally interesting individual he is
[00:56:29 - 00:56:35]	 You're gonna sit by the radio turn the volume up a little bit put down your book or whatever else you're doing and listen
[00:56:43 - 00:56:51]	 Back now to the Big Island of Hawaii and a very unusual individual named Terrence McKenna Terrence
[00:56:51 - 00:56:59]	 I've got a question for you. Have you ever watched Star Trek? Oh, yes. Oh, yes good. You're familiar then with the Prime Directive
[00:56:59 - 00:57:06]	 Thou shalt not interfere as I believe the Prime Directive. Yeah, that's right. Yeah now
[00:57:06 - 00:57:12]	 What you are saying is so serious and is such a large revelation that
[00:57:12 - 00:57:17]	 Is it not possible that you are in a sense doing what you're doing right now?
[00:57:17 - 00:57:21]	 Violating the Prime Directive
[00:57:21 - 00:57:24]	 well
[00:57:24 - 00:57:26]	 You know
[00:57:26 - 00:57:33]	 It's only been about a hundred years since the news began to arrive in the lap of Western civilization
[00:57:33 - 00:57:35]	 that there were these
[00:57:36 - 00:57:42]	 Interactive plants scattered around the world. The first one was the peyote cactus and in 1888
[00:57:42 - 00:57:47]	 Mescaline was extracted from that. I think it's not without implication
[00:57:47 - 00:57:52]	 That right at our moment of greatest cultural crisis
[00:57:52 - 00:58:00]	 When we're destroying the environment and uprooting the rainforests and so forth and so on that out of those same rainforests
[00:58:01 - 00:58:08]	 Comes a phenomenon which if we will face it squarely offers a severe challenge to our notion of how
[00:58:08 - 00:58:12]	 Reality works and how the world is put together and what if we miss it?
[00:58:12 - 00:58:17]	 What if we burn down finally enough of the rainforest that that one plant that we could have used?
[00:58:17 - 00:58:25]	 Is destroyed. No, this may have already happened in the sense that there are many known cases of people collecting
[00:58:26 - 00:58:32]	 Promising plants from only one known source and then returning a few months or years later to find the whole thing
[00:58:32 - 00:58:38]	 Paved over. That's right. All right, it tackled this one aren't very interesting
[00:58:38 - 00:58:46]	 Adherence describes a workable scenario, but my question with it is this is this a universal process or only a localized?
[00:58:46 - 00:58:49]	 Effect I believe that one of the theories of modern physics
[00:58:50 - 00:58:56]	 describes that observations affect the process or thing being observed, isn't it possible that the
[00:58:56 - 00:59:04]	 The data the random sticks in China is somewhat skewed by what is being determined as to time
[00:59:04 - 00:59:11]	 Hasn't everybody noticed the phenomenon of time being perceived to slow down depending on how frequently you for example
[00:59:11 - 00:59:15]	 Look at the clock cooks have noticed the same effect with boiling water
[00:59:15 - 00:59:20]	 the quickening may be happening because we notice certain events and then notice
[00:59:20 - 00:59:23]	 More of the same as time goes along in other words
[00:59:23 - 00:59:29]	 We call cause the process to occur at least from our point of view at in Nashville
[00:59:29 - 00:59:42]	 Is this a moment of deep thinking yes, well, I'm I am thinking I think it's a kind of self-fulfilling
[00:59:43 - 00:59:48]	 Hypothesis, I think we are contributing to it as we uncover it within ourselves
[00:59:48 - 00:59:55]	 Yes, something is calling us towards itself and as we approach it we become more like it
[00:59:55 - 01:00:01]	 something is sculpting out of the primate body over a couple of million years an
[01:00:01 - 01:00:06]	 Entirely different kind of creature and as we go to meet this thing
[01:00:06 - 01:00:09]	 Which I call the transcendental mystery at the end of time
[01:00:09 - 01:00:13]	 We are taking on more and more of its characteristics
[01:00:13 - 01:00:17]	 It's godlike power its ability to span space and time
[01:00:17 - 01:00:19]	 Yes, and when we finally do beach it
[01:00:19 - 01:00:24]	 I imagine there will be a kind of effortless moment of merging and recognition
[01:00:24 - 01:00:29]	 Signposts along the way life on Mars, maybe Europa cloning
[01:00:29 - 01:00:33]	 These rise of the internet virtual reality
[01:00:33 - 01:00:38]	 Nanotechnology possibly alien artifacts all that
[01:00:38 - 01:00:40]	 and more
[01:00:40 - 01:00:48]	 One image I carry of this thing are it is you know those mirrored balls they hang in dance clubs. Yes, and
[01:00:48 - 01:00:51]	 scintillations racing around the walls
[01:00:51 - 01:00:52]	 well
[01:00:52 - 01:00:54]	 the scintillations are
[01:00:54 - 01:00:57]	 distortions of the thing and so as we approach this
[01:00:57 - 01:01:05]	 Transcendental object at the end of time there will be more and more breakdown of ordinary reality and more and more
[01:01:05 - 01:01:07]	 distorted
[01:01:07 - 01:01:11]	 Scenarios of what it is that color clearly is process underway now
[01:01:11 - 01:01:18]	 Yes, and everyone is through their own fears religious training hope they're trying to project
[01:01:18 - 01:01:25]	 What is it? What is it? And there's a lot of fear a lot of uncertainty. I am not afraid of it
[01:01:25 - 01:01:32]	 I would really like one of the great things about the psychedelic aliens is they don't vibrate with this strange
[01:01:32 - 01:01:39]	 Vibe that the fetal trading graze of popular media vibrate with it's a much more
[01:01:39 - 01:01:44]	 upbeat and affirmative kind of alien contact that occurs through the plant
[01:01:44 - 01:01:50]	 This one plant or this one drug that you described
[01:01:50 - 01:01:54]	 Dimethyltryptamine DMT. I don't know what that is
[01:01:54 - 01:02:02]	 Well, what makes it so attractive in a discussion like this art is it's one of the most powerful of all the
[01:02:02 - 01:02:07]	 Psychedelic, but it only lasts five minutes five minutes five minutes
[01:02:07 - 01:02:15]	 So someone who has spent a lifetime dissing psychedelics or denying the existence of the paranormal for that matter
[01:02:15 - 01:02:19]	 Should at least be willing to invest five minutes
[01:02:19 - 01:02:26]	 We've never lost anybody you pick yourself up and go on about your business five minutes five minutes
[01:02:26 - 01:02:29]	 The effects could you describe them?
[01:02:30 - 01:02:34]	 To much of my audience that I know can recall the effects of LSD or
[01:02:34 - 01:02:41]	 Very much rooms. It's very different very different. Well LSD is a kind of psychological
[01:02:41 - 01:02:43]	 self-examination and
[01:02:43 - 01:02:49]	 Strange thought processes and insights what happens with DMT is there is the unmistakable
[01:02:49 - 01:02:55]	 Feeling of having gone to a place in other words it comes on in about 15 seconds
[01:02:57 - 01:03:02]	 Suddenly you're in a place and this place is full of what I call
[01:03:02 - 01:03:06]	 Self-dribbling jeweled basketballs
[01:03:06 - 01:03:12]	 That are intelligent in some sense. They're like badly trained rockwilers
[01:03:12 - 01:03:20]	 They come bounding forward and they're what they're doing in there is they're conducting some kind of a language lesson
[01:03:20 - 01:03:23]	 because they speak
[01:03:24 - 01:03:29]	 They they have a language which you can see is the only way I can explain it
[01:03:29 - 01:03:32]	 What is the source of DMT is it a manufactured drug?
[01:03:32 - 01:03:37]	 Candy, but it's its source is really in nature in plants like
[01:03:37 - 01:03:40]	 Socotria viridis desmanthus elleniansis
[01:03:40 - 01:03:45]	 There's a whole bunch of this Latin salad most of these are South American plants
[01:03:45 - 01:03:52]	 But every ecosystem on earth has DMT sources in it in fact the human brain naturally produces
[01:03:52 - 01:04:00]	 Why we don't know but I'd say there is a strong clue here is the drug which causes people to see little creatures
[01:04:00 - 01:04:05]	 And this same substance occurs naturally in the human brain now
[01:04:05 - 01:04:08]	 I'm not saying that's the answer to the UFO phenomenon
[01:04:08 - 01:04:13]	 But how many people have looked at this and pursued it well then let me ask this
[01:04:13 - 01:04:16]	 There are many who claim
[01:04:16 - 01:04:18]	 to have been abducted
[01:04:18 - 01:04:23]	 Terence and if DMT is a natural occurring substance in the brain
[01:04:23 - 01:04:30]	 Your theory could probably be verified by measuring those who have claimed to be abducted
[01:04:30 - 01:04:35]	 Would such a measurement scientifically be possible well the problem is you recall?
[01:04:35 - 01:04:43]	 I said it only lasts five minutes so unusual amounts of it in the body are very quickly brought down to baseline
[01:04:44 - 01:04:49]	 One of the most transient drugs in the body ever ever observed
[01:04:49 - 01:04:55]	 So and an interesting thing about it art is when they measure its presence
[01:04:55 - 01:05:00]	 They look at human cerebrospinal fluid and they've discovered that it reaches its greatest
[01:05:00 - 01:05:03]	 concentration there between three and four in the morning
[01:05:03 - 01:05:09]	 Well, that's when people are doing the intense REM dreaming yes, and so I think
[01:05:10 - 01:05:15]	 Well, you know the Australian aboriginals have this concept of the dream time yes
[01:05:15 - 01:05:23]	 And I think when you put the dream time the chemistry of DMT the abduction stories together and the depth
[01:05:23 - 01:05:32]	 With which modern media has programmed and messed with people you're very close to being able to begin to talk about the alien
[01:05:32 - 01:05:39]	 Phenomenon I think there are aliens, but I think they can only reach us through our minds
[01:05:39 - 01:05:43]	 They don't cross the universe in ships of titanium
[01:05:43 - 01:05:47]	 They don't even project holograms of themselves into the desert air
[01:05:47 - 01:05:54]	 They come through the human mind and if you look at the human mind in all cultures and in all times and places
[01:05:54 - 01:05:59]	 Except Western Europe in a few intellectuals in the past few hundred years
[01:05:59 - 01:06:05]	 The human mind has always been haunted by sprites gnomes mix these elves yes
[01:06:06 - 01:06:13]	 So I don't see the UFO the modern wave as anything more than the latest wave of this
[01:06:13 - 01:06:16]	 mysterious relationship we have with
[01:06:16 - 01:06:20]	 disembodied minds through the
[01:06:20 - 01:06:23]	 Imagination well then people say well, so this is the old
[01:06:23 - 01:06:30]	 psychological reduction argument no because when I say the human imagination
[01:06:30 - 01:06:36]	 I don't mean some paltry psychological function. I think the human imagination is
[01:06:36 - 01:06:43]	 The largest part of us and where we're going to spend most of the rest of human history here here
[01:06:43 - 01:06:48]	 All right
[01:06:48 - 01:06:51]	 How is such a theory?
[01:06:51 - 01:06:55]	 Greeted by the majority of people who listen to it I mean right now
[01:06:55 - 01:06:59]	 I'm getting a lot of access and a lot of people are really hearing what you're saying
[01:06:59 - 01:07:05]	 Even though you've got to listen very carefully. They're hearing what you're saying Terrence and a lot of them are agreeing with you
[01:07:05 - 01:07:11]	 But there's going to be a big body of very violent disagreement too isn't there well
[01:07:11 - 01:07:16]	 Yes, there are some very large eggs at stake in this game
[01:07:16 - 01:07:21]	 I mentioned science and the need to revive probability theory
[01:07:21 - 01:07:26]	 There is a lot of vested interest in certain versions of what the UFO
[01:07:27 - 01:07:31]	 phenomenon is but you see what I bring to all of this and
[01:07:31 - 01:07:38]	 speaking for the psychedelic community what we bring to all of this is not simply another wrap or
[01:07:38 - 01:07:44]	 Another tall tale, but a method. Oh, no I hear that so then would you suggest that?
[01:07:44 - 01:07:47]	 sightings of UFOs
[01:07:47 - 01:07:50]	 abduction encounters
[01:07:50 - 01:07:54]	 Are if if you could be there measuring a burst of DMT?
[01:07:55 - 01:07:57]	 You'd certainly find it at that moment
[01:07:57 - 01:08:03]	 I think you would find it and I think you would also another place where you would find it is that human death
[01:08:03 - 01:08:08]	 I think this is very important and that's human death that human death
[01:08:08 - 01:08:13]	 I think as we die we have if we haven't had this a DMT trip
[01:08:13 - 01:08:18]	 I also think probably every night in these deep dream states
[01:08:18 - 01:08:26]	 We penetrate into realms from which we can remember almost nothing well then that would be another moment at which you should be able
[01:08:26 - 01:08:33]	 To measure a spike in DMT level in the brain. Are you talking about death? No no yes. Yes. Yes
[01:08:33 - 01:08:35]	 Yes, I'm talking about both
[01:08:35 - 01:08:36]	 instances you cited
[01:08:36 - 01:08:40]	 REM sleep deep REM sleep and the moment of death well
[01:08:40 - 01:08:46]	 It's been confirmed in deep REM doing this kind of research on dying people you don't have ethical questions
[01:08:46 - 01:08:50]	 I understand, but you're saying it has been confirmed. You know where in deep sleep
[01:08:50 - 01:08:56]	 I don't know in the in what institution there has been confirmation of this well at the University of
[01:08:56 - 01:09:00]	 Mississippi a few years ago a team led by a guy named Christian
[01:09:00 - 01:09:06]	 All those papers are in the literature and in fact anyone interested in this should just search
[01:09:06 - 01:09:11]	 DMT on the internet and they may have never heard of it that they will be astonished
[01:09:11 - 01:09:15]	 Well, I've never heard of it, but but your chain of logic is making sense to me now
[01:09:16 - 01:09:21]	 Let us talk for a second about paranormal events as we approach time wave zero
[01:09:21 - 01:09:27]	 It is your contention. I think that paranormal events ghosts poltergeists
[01:09:27 - 01:09:34]	 Paranormal events of all manner and shape will begin to increase which would suggest
[01:09:34 - 01:09:39]	 I think that DMT spikes will be increasing yes
[01:09:39 - 01:09:45]	 I it's a way of putting and certainly DMT is becoming more known in
[01:09:46 - 01:09:53]	 society and there's a almost a fad now of locating plants in one's environment and and
[01:09:53 - 01:10:00]	 Extracting this stuff and getting enough out to actually hit the money. Yeah, do we have laws against it yet by the way?
[01:10:00 - 01:10:04]	 I guess I'd ask huh well. It's an interesting situation here
[01:10:04 - 01:10:09]	 It is an a human neurotransmitter every single one of us has it in our body and yes
[01:10:09 - 01:10:12]	 This is among the most illegal substances
[01:10:12 - 01:10:19]	 Figures figures doesn't it? Yeah, it does figures. It's the catch-22. We're all holding art
[01:10:19 - 01:10:28]	 Well the way things are going will probably all be tossed in a pokey for it
[01:10:28 - 01:10:35]	 We'll have little roadside stops and DMT measuring devices. Well. I think this was Adam's fall
[01:10:37 - 01:10:43]	 You made a I'm gonna return to another subject for a second you met a fascinating statement
[01:10:43 - 01:10:47]	 I said well if there's time travel where are the time travelers your answer was?
[01:10:47 - 01:10:52]	 they will not be here until the first time machine is invented because
[01:10:52 - 01:10:58]	 You could not go back to a time prior to the invention of a machine that would enable travel
[01:10:58 - 01:11:05]	 Your parallel was you can't travel where there are not roads, and there were are not roads back that far in time
[01:11:05 - 01:11:13]	 If time is to virtually end by 2012 Terrence where would you see the invention of time machine?
[01:11:13 - 01:11:16]	 a time machine the first time machine
[01:11:16 - 01:11:19]	 between now and then
[01:11:19 - 01:11:24]	 Well, I don't think it's between now and then actually that I think it's then
[01:11:24 - 01:11:27]	 It's then it's then in other words
[01:11:27 - 01:11:35]	 If what the time wave zero thing is showing is that events can be portrayed in this linear way as a line on a graph?
[01:11:36 - 01:11:42]	 Yes, that's suddenly in 2012 for some mysterious reason this can no longer be done
[01:11:42 - 01:11:48]	 it must be because in 2012 time ceases to be linear and
[01:11:48 - 01:11:53]	 That must mean that because a technology is created
[01:11:53 - 01:12:00]	 Which causes time to lose its linear and serial quality and that could only be time travel?
[01:12:00 - 01:12:02]	 And you believe that at that moment?
[01:12:04 - 01:12:11]	 Tens of thousands or millions or who knows of time travelers will suddenly show up well actually that's my
[01:12:11 - 01:12:13]	 conservative
[01:12:13 - 01:12:15]	 Model of what would happen?
[01:12:15 - 01:12:20]	 What's against that is I'm sure you've heard this the well-known?
[01:12:20 - 01:12:23]	 grandfather paradox which is
[01:12:23 - 01:12:29]	 Time travel is always said to be impossible because you travel back in time and you could kill your own grandfather
[01:12:30 - 01:12:37]	 Well, how do we avoid this yes? I think we avoid it by actually what happens when the first time machine is
[01:12:37 - 01:12:40]	 invented is
[01:12:40 - 01:12:41]	 the rest of
[01:12:41 - 01:12:43]	 Universal history happens instantly
[01:12:43 - 01:12:49]	 This is the only way paradox can be kept out of the picture
[01:12:49 - 01:12:55]	 So I call it the God whistle scenario so in other words linearity ends at that
[01:12:56 - 01:13:02]	 Instance and the rest of the history of the universe occurs in a few milliseconds
[01:13:02 - 01:13:07]	 It's sort of the reverse of the Big Bang where you get a lot of action in the first few
[01:13:07 - 01:13:14]	 nanoseconds of the universe's life in this model the universe undergoes half of its
[01:13:14 - 01:13:18]	 morphogenetic unfolding in the last few
[01:13:18 - 01:13:24]	 milliseconds of its existence is that then the moment when the human race in effect
[01:13:25 - 01:13:31]	 joins those that we can temporarily now visit only with something like DMT or
[01:13:31 - 01:13:37]	 That the human race joins those who have passed over into the great beyond or both
[01:13:37 - 01:13:45]	 That's what I think it is. I mean are they one in the same in your view or they may be I thought that you know these
[01:13:45 - 01:13:50]	 DMT creatures, what are they and the conservative position?
[01:13:50 - 01:13:58]	 Since we know there are human beings is they must be some kind of human being but what kind and the only answer
[01:13:58 - 01:14:03]	 I can come up with is soul. I mean I
[01:14:03 - 01:14:06]	 Resisted this but is it possible that?
[01:14:06 - 01:14:15]	 Shamans have been using plants to peer into the great beyond and that there is the kind of ecology of souls out there
[01:14:15 - 01:14:22]	 When you ask the shaman they say well you weren't listening. We told you we did it with ancestor magic
[01:14:22 - 01:14:27]	 Say oh I get it an ancestor an ancestor is actually a dead person
[01:14:27 - 01:14:31]	 Yeah, absolutely
[01:14:31 - 01:14:34]	 Absolutely fascinating Terrence listen to me. We're at the top of the hour
[01:14:34 - 01:14:38]	 Go take a 10 or 12 minute break and when we come back
[01:14:38 - 01:14:45]	 We're gonna talk about souls because I've I've got some recent really incredible news about souls
[01:14:45 - 01:14:50]	 And you're just the right guy to comment on that and don't worry folks. We will get the lines open Terrence rest
[01:14:50 - 01:14:53]	 Okay. All right, Terrence McKenna
[01:14:53 - 01:14:55]	 Terrence McKenna Wow
[01:14:55 - 01:15:03]	 Is Mike if on the other hand you have the time to sit down and really listen to what's being said not reacting
[01:15:03 - 01:15:06]	 like a Neanderthal with your
[01:15:08 - 01:15:14]	 Your head hitting the table then you're gonna come away from this thinking some new thoughts
[01:15:14 - 01:15:19]	 And there is value in that back to Terrence shortly
[01:15:19 - 01:15:23]	 Kenna that should be an interesting adventure
[01:15:23 - 01:15:28]	 Unto itself, but I want to ask you Terrence about a little bit about
[01:15:28 - 01:15:32]	 Souls you mentioned souls and and so I have two questions
[01:15:34 - 01:15:42]	 One is there was a recent not recent very old medical study in which a medical doctor
[01:15:42 - 01:15:47]	 Actually endeavored to set out and prove in days when it was politically okay to do this kind of thing
[01:15:47 - 01:15:50]	 that the soul
[01:15:50 - 01:15:55]	 Could actually be measured that at the very instant of human death
[01:15:55 - 01:16:00]	 And he went through a whole big trip. I put the medical report up on my website
[01:16:00 - 01:16:03]	 the human body loses
[01:16:04 - 01:16:06]	 about three quarters of an ounce
[01:16:06 - 01:16:10]	 And not due to gases or anything else you might imagine in your mind
[01:16:10 - 01:16:16]	 No physical cause all of that accounted for and he printed and published this medical study
[01:16:16 - 01:16:21]	 Suggesting the human body actually instantly at the instant of death
[01:16:21 - 01:16:24]	 loses three quarters of an ounce of weight
[01:16:24 - 01:16:28]	 Do you have any reaction to that?
[01:16:28 - 01:16:30]	 well
[01:16:30 - 01:16:35]	 Looking at it through the eyes of novelty theory. I think nature is very reluctant
[01:16:35 - 01:16:40]	 Give up a complex ordered form once it's been achieved
[01:16:40 - 01:16:49]	 I've noticed that the difference between living organisms and things like chairs and tables if the chairs and tables
[01:16:49 - 01:16:50]	 don't
[01:16:50 - 01:16:51]	 metabolize
[01:16:51 - 01:16:56]	 In a sense the the soul is something which is manifest in time
[01:16:56 - 01:17:01]	 It's almost as though organisms have a hyperdimension
[01:17:01 - 01:17:08]	 They're they're objects with time folded inside of them and at death
[01:17:08 - 01:17:11]	 What seems to happen is this complex?
[01:17:11 - 01:17:22]	 Morphogenetic field if you will simply withdraws back into whatever higher dimension that came from in the first place
[01:17:22 - 01:17:24]	 It's not