An adventure out beyond the furthest boundary I'll be searching for the spirit that can set me free (Instrumental) Well I've been caught in the clutter of the day to day And I've been waiting for that spark to come and sweep me away From the wave of an ecstasy to a brand new reality Where fantastic worlds open up in a dazzling display Setting out on a journey of discovery Through the doorway that opens to the mystery An adventure out beyond the furthest boundary I'll be searching for the spirit that can set me free Some people say the spirit doesn't exist And if it comes to them they just resist Then they come up with some theory to explain it away But if they only had the eyes to see The depth and power of the mystery Then they would know that it goes far beyond the things they say La la la la la la la la la The truth is stranger than our wildest thoughts can conceive There are dimensions far beyond this normal world we perceive There are revelations and epiphanies There are visionary possibilities All that's required is the courage just to take the leap And then setting out on a journey of discovery Through the doorway that opens to the mystery An adventure out beyond the furthest boundary I'll be searching for the spirit that can set me free Setting out on a journey of discovery [applause] So we sort of had something going before lunch. Can anybody remember what it was? I had a question. It was hallucinogenic snuff used by the Yanomami family. Yeah, and haven't we done that? We've done that, but not too radically. Are you still doing questions? I've got one I'd like to pass around. The whole idea of the shaman as having this hyper-dimensional overview And as you say, some of them say, "It scares me shit, but I'll do them the top dog." And other times you wonder why it isn't in headlines 11 inches tall. There seems to be something about the experience that is, I don't know if self-selecting is the right word Or evolutionary selecting. Why is there such a small percentage of people who actually end up Everyone can do it, they do have the genetic possibility But there's something more in the selective period where a shaman will come out Because it is, as you say, an awesome responsibility And yet, it's everyone's possible liberation. And then one last thing, another encoder to this You mentioned that you don't think that it's the Bush or Reagan, etc. Feeling that they just want to keep an economic grip as far as the sale of would-be hallucinogenics. Don't you think that there is some degree of teleological repression going on as well? You mentioned that you didn't feel that way But other times I've heard you feel that there definitely is. I think that, yeah, I mean it simplifies the issue to say that it's entirely a money issue. Because the psychedelics are used by so small a percentage of people That it doesn't rate the tremendous institutional fury that is brought against it And where you really see the contradiction in economic logic is with pot. I think that the subtext of the government's fear about psychedelics Is that this quality that they have of dissolving boundaries Causes people to question basic assumptions about how society is run. And I think this is true of any society. It's not just an American phenomenon. It's that if you take psychedelics, whatever you are, you know, Eskimo, Hasidic Rabbi, quantum physicist You will question your first premises. And you get millions of people questioning the first premises And then the powers that be become very nervous. It's interesting that this whole phenomenon of the 1960s occurred Because American commitment to universal public education Brought its first generation of people to adulthood in the middle of the 1960s Because that universal commitment to public education began after World War II After the establishment took a look at what this filling, you know, actually funding And building up great public universities and then filling them with inquisitive young people What the result of that was, that's when they decided to turn the universities back into trade schools for CPAs Which they did do. I mean, there is nothing like the level and the breadth of education and intellectual curiosity That was encouraged when I was going to school. That's all finished now. Now you're expected to do your data entry job, watch a lot of TV and keep your mouth shut. And this is what we expect of our college graduates. Really there was a crisis of faith in American institutions which was only exacerbated by psychedelics. It was a combination of educating people to the actual traditions of Western civilization In large numbers for the first time, and then giving them psychedelics I mean, or having them exposed to psychedelics And then they began to ask questions for which there were no answers And the response of the establishment was to suppress this. I mentioned cannabis. You know, you're all probably aware through the work of the hemp people That cannabis holds many benefits, not necessarily related to its properties as an intoxicant But as a source of food, lubricant, plastics, fuels, etc. The reason the establishment is so hysterical on the subject of cannabis Is because it erodes loyalty to the industrial state. I mean, that's why if you look at the pharmacological profile Let's contrast two familiar drugs Caffeine, we have the medical data which shows that it can contribute to fetal malformation We know that it damages the liver We know that if abused it can cause severe stomach ulcers, etc. Cannabis, vast amounts of money have been spent trying to find something wrong with it And they're still digging, folks They've decided it doesn't cause tits on statues It doesn't, you know, all the screwy things they've come up with over the years Have had to be abandoned Why is caffeine enshrined in every labor contract negotiated in the Western world As a sacred right of all workers twice daily? Why is cannabis, you know, you can lose your house, your automobile, your bank account, your art collection Simply because you had six plants in the back forty And your children Why this disparity? Well, what is the effect of caffeine? It makes it possible for you to perform your duties during the last three hours of the work cycle It's efficiency equal to the first three hours of the work cycle It allows people to tolerate spinning widgets onto gombers until hell freezes over Without a thought ever rising in their mind that maybe this is a ridiculous way to spend your life Cannabis, on the other hand, people aren't so interested in going to work They'd rather lay around and make love They don't want to watch TV They'd rather smoke a doobie and have a conversation with a friend In other words, these things promote activities which don't make anybody any money And cause people to question the institutions and the social philosophies that are being shoved down their throats If the playing field were level, caffeine might well be a prescription drug Not that I think that's a good idea And cannabis I think would probably be freely available The most dangerous drugs in society in terms of detrimental social impact are alcohol and tobacco The two most freely available I mean, every street corner of every city, they're peddled in vast amounts We have a very crack-brained approach to the problem of drugs We're not the only society All societies seem to do this Out of a possible spectrum of 20 or 30 depressants and intoxicants Most societies select 3 or 4 which they hail as harmless And then the rest are, you know, the seed of Satan This attitude is persevered in against all scientific data, against all medical research This is just what people choose to think The problem is, we don't have the luxury of this kind of ignorance anymore The amount of revenue that could be accrued from the cannabis economy The pressure that could be taken off petroleum extraction if cannabis were part of the picture All of these things make it incumbent upon us, I think, to think more creatively and more honestly About which drugs really are posing problems for us What was the first question? The question that relates to this is, why are there, given the fact, why is the percentage of shamans so small relative to a population? Because of the fact that, as you say, there is fear in going into, there is attraction and fear in going into these other realms And there's obviously maybe some self-limiting aspect of the hyper-dimensional view But there's some dynamic going on, because everyone has an equal opportunity to go to this hyper-dimensional But very few of their own initiatives really push to that point where you are definitely within the hyper-dimensional realm Well, there are different things to be said about this One of them, there are what are called biochemical differences in individuality And never more so than in the matter of drugs People are very different from each other A few years ago I took a course from Sasha Shogan at Cal And at one point he brought in some substance, I don't know what it was And this was a class of 600 people And passed it around and asked everybody to take a sniff of this bottle Well, 598 people pronounced this stuff completely odorless And these people were almost violently ill from the overpowering odor of this thing They possessed a gene for the sensitivity to this compound That caused it to be for them overwhelming, for everyone else unnoticeable And we're surrounded by these kinds of individual biochemical differences In traditional societies, shamanism is often a family business And it may well be that this is because ability to handle these psychedelic substances And to really get mileage out of them Is a genetic endowment of some sort I mean, cannabis again, provides an interesting example One of the things you hear people say about cannabis, who don't smoke it Is they say, I used to or I tried it but it makes me paranoid Well, to the people who use it, this is inconceivable In fact it's almost an antidote to paranoia Because it seems to make things appear more Taoistic, more integrated And make more sense These are biochemical differences that need to be studied You know, different racial groups have different relationships to intoxication I mean, I think it's probably, there is some truth to the idea That the North American Indians had a susceptibility to distilled alcohol The Europeans, who had been dealing with it for a couple of centuries by the time they arrived here Didn't have, because the North American Indians represented a closed gene pool Never having been exposed to this, there was no selection for being able to handle it And then there's another issue in relation to your question, John First of all, some people say, well not all shamans take hallucinogens Well, true, and I've excited some people's ire by suggesting But all real shamans do And, you know, saying that somebody is a shaman I mean, imagine if simply being able to rave and exhort on the subject of the four gospels Qualified you as a man of the Lord Actually, you have to sort through dozens of so-called preachers To find somebody you would be willing to leave alone with your chickens You have to sort through a lot of people who claim to be shamans Before you find somebody who really is one I mean, we tend to be naive, go to the Amazon with your heart on your sleeve Seeking ayahuasca, and I guarantee, unless you go well connected You'll drink a lot of swill before you get to somebody honest enough And sensible enough, conscientious enough to actually make it right and do it right And in the case of shamanism, usually this is going on in cultures without literacy Without written languages And so they don't hold conferences or publish proceedings Or have the university matriculation examinations in shamanism So on the surface, a shaman is anyone who claims to be a shaman Or who cares to claim But in terms of real shamanic ability I think it only comes through either innate special abilities Which probably means innate, high sensitivity to neurological To neurotransmitters, exotic neurotransmitters Or it comes through an exposure to hallucinogens This is a big argument in anthropology Mercilio who normally I am very deferent to Got this one completely wrong And decided on absolutely no evidence That what he called narcotic shamanism was decadent Well first of all, the use of the word narcotic in that context Shows that he didn't know what he was talking about Nobody uses narcotics to shamanize You go to sleep if you take narcotics So what he wanted to say was that he felt hallucinogenic shamanism was decadent But what is the alternative? Reliance on ordeals, fasting, or pathological personalities Maybe epileptics or borderline schizophrenics or something like that I think that these kinds of shamanisms that are not hallucinogenically based Are derivative shamanisms that occur at a later stage of culture When the plant-based shamanism has been disrupted By some factor like migration or the disappearance of the plants involved Or something like that From what I understand, the Lakota Indians Used hallucinogenic state to accomplish all this Through the drumbeat and the song and things like that I think if you talk to the Lakota about the use of hallucinogenics As far as their shamanism, it's not necessary And yet in the Southwest, it's prominent Yeah, well, I think acoustical driving can carry you a certain distance There are substitutes for hallucinogens But they're neither as effective nor as pleasant I mean, ordeals are what many cultures get into Well, I was just thinking along the lines of someone like a crazy horse That came out of the Lakota who seemed to possess these abilities And manifest them physically Well, there's also the exceptional personality The exceptional personality breaks all the rules, see But... So would you say then, Terrence, that there's a genetic proclivity Maybe in some individuals If there is access to botanicals There is no historical evidence of shamanism prior to that For that individual to start engaging in explorations? Yeah, I think so You know, Maria Sabina claimed that she was never initiated into shamanism She claimed that as a girl herding the cattle She ate the mushrooms because she was hungry And that she was basically self-taught in shamanism A society that actually had shamanic lineages and institutions In Madagascar, there are these highly evolved ordeal poisons And this is where you take a plant You feel like you're dying You beg to die, you want to die, and you don't die You come back from it a better person But it is only because you were slammed up against death itself Ordeals work, but they're not very pleasant And the idea of putting yourself through an ideal like that Once a week or twice a month As part of your professional practice Is pretty outrageous The other thing that has to be said And this is really important And anthropologists have sold this one short Experiences are what we are least able to communicate to each other We can describe machine parts, agricultural procedures But anything in the realm of feeling Our languages are woefully impoverished And this is specific to English I think it haunts all human experience That it's hard to communicate how we feel Well, so then there's a vast spectrum of experiences that come from plants And I dare say most of them unpleasant Let's start out with eating difanbakia or something Which causes your throat tissues to swell up and you feel like you're strangling Or amanita muscaria is a very controversial shamanic plant Because some people say it's garbage And Gordon Watson in his last book called it the supreme entheogen of all time Well, clearly people are talking about different things Or are they interpreting the same experience differently And so there are, for example You know, people who are fond of peyote Like, if they haven't done their homework Like to imagine that they are taking this ancient, ancient hallucinogen That has informed the lives of the Sonoran and the Indians of that area For thousands and thousands of years Well, this is, as far as anybody can tell, complete bonk There is no record of peyote use older than four or five hundred years Most of it is post-ghosting When you go into the old Sonoran graves The old archaeology of the Sonoran, the Tarahumara Indians You find Socorra suffundifolia beans The little black and red beans that you see in Mexico Strung into jewelry, sold along the side of the roads That's what those Indians took for thousands and thousands of years And you have a continuous record over about four thousand years Of these seeds being buried in graves With ritual instruments indicating that they were buried with shamans You couldn't give it away today Because it is such a horrible experience It's essentially sub-lethal strychnine poisoning It can kill you, effortlessly It's clear that at some point, fairly recently Somebody tried peyote And said, "My God, this stuff we've been taking for thousands and thousands of years Is just horrible compared to this, this is great!" And immediately there was a transfer of loyalty And Lord knows, eating fresh peyote is no gourmet I'm not taking the easy way So the point there being Cultures tend to define experiences differently And you can't tell what people are talking about Until you really check in Traveling around the world, you know You end up in certain cultures and they say "Oh, we're so happy to have you here As our honored guest, we would like you to eat Some of our national food" Let's say you're in Scotland And so they say, "Well, you must eat some huggies Because this is what we all eat We all really love this, this is the best part of Scottish life Mmm, mmm, boy are you going to love this!" Well, when it's finally served, you know Your jaw drops in disbelief Because it's ghastly Unless you're Scotch And... Well, but if you're Scotch, you dare not say so, you see Because a cultural myth has been built up around I mean, do Italians knock red wine? Do the French denounce truffles? Certainly not Ah, true Pate de foie gras is always my example So what you have to realize is that these things are culturally defined And often what works for the Yanomamo or the Muinane or the Witoto Won't work for you Datura is a good example Datura is a shamanic plant used by many people throughout the world All of them, I think, pharmacologically deprived Otherwise they wouldn't put up with what you have to put up with to take that stuff, you know And my interest, and I know it was practical Was to find a hallucinogen that did what I wanted it to do And didn't do anything I didn't want it to do What I was interested in was, first of all, hallucinations Because some people say I'm obsessed with it Fine My notion is that if you can see something that isn't there That's very much more convincing than just funny thoughts Racing ideas, strange physical sensations It's a powerful and boundary-dissolving confrontation When you confront what is not there And so I find, and this is a heresy for sure I'm not that fond of LSD I think it's a very sloppy drug I think, you know, you feel terrible the next day I always did, I had tight headaches, body aches People always say, well it was not clean, it had speed in it, it had strychnine in it Maybe, but even the good stuff is not And it wouldn't hallucinate for me the way I wanted it to I could get hallucinations if I would smoke hash with it But on its own it was what I have described in other places As abrasively psychoanalytic Unpleasant, confrontational And what I was interested in were hallucinations So when I got to psilocybin I remember after my first mushroom trip I said, thank God we found this stuff, I'll never take LSD again That wasn't quite true But I've taken it less than half a dozen times since my first psilocybin trip So, and in terms of the chemistry of these things And from all this fiddling Is that it's the indole hallucinogens That are at the center of the mandala They do what we want them to do With very little detrimental side effect LSD is one of them Ebogaine is one of them Not one widely known We've got to save something for our old age folks Harmine and harmaline, the beta-carbolines When complexed with DMT And then psilocybin And I think that's the basic list Well, those do These are really the keys which open the lock Very easily, very cleanly, very dependably And that's where I would put all of my attention And, you know, even in that domain You have to be somewhat careful My brother and I spent years tracking down A hallucinogen in the Amazon called Ukuhe That was an orally active form of DMT Which we, remember I said that DMT is destroyed in the gut So we were fascinated to try and find this Ukuhe Because we wanted to know how it was possible That it could work orally And also the ethnographic accounts claimed That the people who used it spoke with little men And we wanted to see these little men To see if they were the same little men we were trying to Well, we had three expeditions to the Amazon Before we finally closed in on this stuff And when we finally got it, you know With this tremendous sense of having attained the grail And having finally, this was going to do it This was going to be the one to... Then we took this stuff And my God, it turned us every way but loose Your heart feels like it's pounding Its way out of the front of your chest You vomit, you have tremoring of the limbs On and on and on So we go through this, live through it Wash off in the river and go looking for the shaman To lodge a complaint And he says, "Yeah, well it's hard to get used to" And so then, when we get it back home to the lab And do the high pressure gas chromatography And do the rest of it and see what's really there You see that the genetic component of the virola trees From which this resin is extracted Is... it's a mess It's too many tryptamines DMT, DET, 5-monomethyltryptamine 5-MAO-DMT And several other cardioactive tryptamines It looked like they'd swept the floor of an endochemist's lab To put together the components of this plant You don't want this Because it's like taking ten drugs at once It's all running together You can't tell whether you're Agnes or Angus What you want is a DMT source Where when you put it in the grass chromatograph No, in the gas chromatograph You get one spike That's NM-dimethyltryptamine And all the rest is cellulose, a little DNA And that's all, some minerals and salts If you don't have a clean source Then, you know, it's contaminated So even that legendary shamanic halicinogen When actually put to the use test Wasn't able to pass it, yeah Yes, going back to the DMT and mushroom psilocybin You were talking about taking psilocybin And then doing breath control Is indistinguishable from a DMT trip If you do it correctly, you can coax it Since this is a learning tree And you're sort of in front there You can give us an idea of what it's like To coax 5 grand into I mean, I'm sure you won't be able to give us All the information, but maybe you can Sort of enlighten us a little bit And we can sort of work in that direction At least I can work in that direction You mean, how do you get at the peak Of a psilocybin trip to deliver you into DMT land? Yes, because sometimes I get a little jealous Hearing you talk about DMT trips And I sit here and say, you know I want to find that stuff Anyway, so Well, the thing is Psilocybin will take you there If you have the courage and the stamina To tolerate the duration It does Of the psilocybin revelation So first of all, you take a heroic dose 5, 6, 7 grams Then, when you're peaking Well, you smoke cannabis Then You sit in silent darkness Alone Because I think the presence of other people Always pins you to the surface With this stuff You don't need somebody else No matter if they're talking or not They can just be in the room and you're aware of it Just sitting there, then this is a different thing Breathing Exhaling, breathing, exhaling And then you form an intention for it to approach you I mean, you say I can feel it I mean, it's almost a neighborhood It's a pharmacological neighborhood And you know how you may go to Little Italy But there are no Italians on the street But if you start 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ground But already you're into dubiousness Because who has ever seen these burn marks? Only the editors of these UFO magazines And their willing psychophants I mean you and I have not seen these burn marks We've seen photographs of funny stuff On the ground and we're told that's it The crop circle leaves a trace That is enduring But the problem there The problem I have with the crop circles And it's odd how you never hear this discussed Is that nobody has ever seen one Come into existence We get before and we get after But how come we never get during? Do they appear instantly? If they appear instantly That would be pretty convincing Just glance it's not there Glance, glance it's there And we figure, yeah There's a, I know he's doing a lot of research Colin Andrews Doing a lot of research on this And I've got a recording This is basically how he described it They were waiting And setting up to, in this area To you know, try and record some of this going on And this is opening up And all of a sudden The recorders are running And all of a sudden they all stand up Because there's this incredibly strange Powerful sounding buzz of some kind That comes from far away And starts zooming up and comes past them Over this little rise And it takes them all maybe 45 seconds or a minute To get to the top of the rise And there on the other side of the rise Is a drop, but it wasn't there When they started descending down So apparently, you know And Richard Hoffman talks about this too Don't get me started Okay Don't get me started But, look Bad works of art On a scale of miles Are not what we should expect From intelligent visitors from the stars Here's what I Let me Isn't it a little weird Let's, I mean First of all, let me say I'm open minded about the crop circles But let's also not be silly Isn't it a little peculiar That this phenomenon Appears within driving distance Of the apartments of the people Most likely to chronicle And proclaim it As a manifestation of telluric energy From another dimension In other words What if it had been happening in Turkmenistan Then you would have something How would John Michel and Colin Andrews And all these people Have been able to make a living off of it There are a number of things That are really weird about the crop circles First of all We're talking southern England here The place is littered with RAF bases Nuclear weapons depots Intercontinental missile delivery systems So forth and so on And we're asked to believe That the Ministry of Defense Is utterly unconcerned About the fact that the airspace Of Great Britain Is being violated Night after night after night By a mysterious agency That if it can snap the stem Of a wheat stalk Could throw the switch On an electrical device Of some sort The British establishment Is utterly unconcerned About the crop circles [inaudible] Well but wherever it's coming from If you had a nuclear weapons depot I think you would be Johnny at the raffle To find out what's going on Didn't you read Like last year, the year before Like these two guys came forward And said that they've perpetrated a hoax Right, and all that did Was muddy the waters And it can't be done By human beings We now know You know Rupert And all these people Rupert, believe it or not Is the plant pathologist Who serves on the board Of the seriologist Which is the main publication That is booming this They held a contest in July Where you paid 50 pounds You were assigned A 10 acre plot You had from 10 at night Until 4 in the morning There were I think 16 entries Everybody was given The same design And at dawn Judges helicoptered Over the sites And then made the ground inspection And three of the contestants Produced crop circles That were indistinguishable From the rest of the audience Indistinguishable from the real thing Beautiful crop circles And I'm getting this from believers You know, this is what Rupert reluctantly informed me of I think that And you know, one theory is That it's a particle beam weapon Being tested from space But tested 750 times In the last 18 months In the same small part of England I don't know, we tried I came up with two theories That do not require To luric intervention Or friendly extraterrestrials First theory A whole lot of people First of all, it's killed The UFO industry in England You can't give away UFO sightings At this point So all of these people Are trying to Make a point That they are not So all of these people You know, it all is happening Near Glastonbury And down where the old earthworks are It's occurring in an area Where there is the largest Concentration of people Likely to hail it As a paranormal phenomenon On the surface of the earth And they have done so They have made outrageous statements Statements like No human being could do this It's impossible to explain this So forth and so on Well, now imagine That something like MI5 You know what that is It's the English CIA Looks at the rise of paganism In Britain You know, earthworks Channeling, all of this stuff And says This threatens church and state We need to create A disinformation situation Let's lure these people Out onto a limb Way out onto a limb And then let's cut the limb off So what you do Is you create this Pseudo-paranormal phenomenon You get John Mitchell Colin Andrews All these people To proclaim its weirdness And then you reveal That it's easily duplicated That's one thing That's one theory In other words The British establishment Is undercutting paganism By luring these people Into saying too much But that's not my favorite theory What's your favorite? Oh, my favorite theory Is much better Because the question is How do you make these things? When you actually go To the crop circles What do you see? And it's a big deal Sherlock Holmes could handle The crop circles There's an arm tied behind his back I think When you go to the crop circles Here it is The crop circle Mysterious, unearthly Portending, who knows what And what else is there? Well, the press And the sightseers And yourself And an extraordinary number Of Japanese tourists (laughter) Now You're getting close These The Japanese press Has followed the crop circle Phenomenon More avidly than any other press In the world outside of England Every new crop circle Appears, photographs And discussion It is huge in Japan Japan, they're obsessed With this stuff I think that what might be going on This is certainly a lot more likely Than extraterrestrials Or telluric forces Do you all know what MISI is? It's the Ministry of Trade and Industry It's this enormous organization In Japan Which coordinates technological Development and marketing It's what we're talking about When we say Japan incorporated I think That this is a MIDI Research project And that these Japanese tourists Which are ever present At these sites Some of them Are drawn from a centuries old Tradition of ninja Stem snappers Who, at a given signal Are able to Hurl away their nikons Rush into the corn And in the matter of a few minutes Create these things Then put their cameras back on And their sunglasses back on And take up their deep cover As Japanese tourists Now why would MISI do such a thing? What's in it for them? It's a semiotics project They are studying the impact Of symbols On the western mind The closest thing That they can get Is to look at the The closest thing To these crop circles If you look at a complete Encyclopedia of them Are the pottery marks Made by master potters In medieval Japan On their ceramics Almost all of the crop circles Except the frivolous ones Like for instance How about the fact That the symbol Of the seriologist magazine Was done in one of these {END} Wait Time : 0.00 sec Model Load: 0.55 sec Decoding : 1.61 sec Transcribe: 4884.58 sec Total Time: 4886.74 sec