And now recorded live at the International Transpersonal Conference Vision Plants Transpersonal Challenge with Terence McKenna This presentation will explore the model that shamanic use of vision plants provides for transpersonal psychology particular attention given to the role such plants play in personal integration deeper implications of shamanic use of plants role of mind in the natural order and the planetary future Basically for myself my involvement with shamanism has been a deepening meditation over now about 20 years and it seems to me very fruitful because it continues to change and Integrate itself ever more deeply into the meaning of reality at large so that For me shamanism has become a kind of overarching metaphor for not only personal being in the world, but the historical Adventure the being of the species in the world So I want to talk about it today and and as an advocate. I want to make it seem Indispensable to Living a life of right reason in the world. I want to show that without shamanism the notion of shamanism itself is in a kind of jeopardy and Probably most of us can find ourselves in agreement with that but then I want to leave most of us behind and go further and Suggest that this humanist rooted in shamanism is a humanist ultimately rooted in very complex symbiotic relationships with plants and chemicals in the environment Want to argue in fact that people without plants are in a state of Potential neurosis a state of Existential wanting and then and that in fact part of the Western dilemma is the Sense of abandonment that followed with the breaking off of these symbiotic relations with vision producing plants that characterized the rise of Western monotheism and even more characterized the rise of modern society But let me return them to the origins because this is where I think the case can be made my interpretation of the time we're living through and this amorphous movement that we all somehow in some way are a part of which calls itself the new age or What have you I call it the archaic revival and The reason I call it the archaic revival is rooted in my conviction that it is in fact a revivifying of the models and energy forms of archaism and Shamanism then is suddenly centrally highlighted shamanism was the profession me plus ultra of the upper neolithic era and What was? this profession precisely about Well, it was about exploring the envelope of cognition Pushing against the linguistic membrane of what it was possible to say symbolize conceive and communicate Now why Should one species out of all those competing on the earth? attain somehow a kind of mega adaptive ability that causes a kind of compression of biological time into the Phenomenon that we call history Is it simply as our theologians have always been forced to conceive? that divine agency entered into the mechanism of the world and somehow set a spark in motion that kindled and grew into humanity Or is it as the 19th century explored so exhaustively the possibility that? incremental change can eventually initiate and insinuate into a situation new states of higher order including even possibly the state of higher order that we call Self-reflecting consciousness, but somehow this is no more than a gradual refinement out of previous states of nature Well what I want to suggest is that it is a bit of both of these points of view the divine intervention and the evolutionary I Think what evolutionary biologists have missed in looking at the emergence of human beings out of the primate phylogeny is Generally speaking the mutagenic influence of foods the fact that a fruit-eating arboreal primate because of a Situation of spreading dryness in the environment evolved into a pack hunting creature of the grasslands with an omnivorous diet and omnivores by their very nature exposed themselves to a very large number of mutagenic influences I'm speaking now chemically Mutagenic influences that interfere with the correct copying of protein interfere with Spacing of children lactation Interfere with mentation Psychoactive compounds in the food chain, and it's very interesting that as human beings transform themselves into omnivorous Pack hunting omnivores you begin to see the first faint stirrings of self-reflection you begin to get the fire pits and Later the the chipped flint leavings of earliest neolithic human Tool-making what this says to me is that there was a unique confluence of factors present in the evolutionary situation That were capable of kindling this ontological transformation of what had previously been the animal mind and What I suggest this factor is or was Psychoactive plants in the environment specifically psychoactive plants in the grasslands environment in which human pastoralism evolved in Africa over a million years ago The plant must be African it must be Extraordinarily noticeable in the environment it must not be a deep forest Endemic because this is not where human evolution was taking place The only plant which fits this description is a mushroom of the psilocybin containing variety and it's very easy to see I think that the presence then of Psychoactive compounds of this sort in the early human diet Set the stage for a number of structural and psychological changes You Psilocybin ingested in low doses increases visual acuity Now it's not difficult to see that in an animal in under evolutionary pressure in a pack hunting environment Increased visual acuity will mean a more successful reproductive strategy This means that those animals not including the psychoactive substance in their diet will be Mitigated against and fade from the scene and by this process a steady bootstrapping process Self-reflection was born in our species. How do we get from visual acuity to self-reflection? Low doses of psilocybin give increased visual acuity medium-range doses of psilocybin give an increased interest in erotic activity You should laugh there may not be too many laughs with this one Slightly higher doses of psilocybin give an experience of the pneumonosome an Actual contact with a mystery in the human psyche, which is no less mysterious to us today Than it was to our ancestors when the last glaciation was retreating against Canada I mean don't kid yourself in the face of this the content of this symbiotic relationship modernism rationalism positivism all is exposed as just whistling past the graveyard because the numinous depth of the mystery that seems to have called us out of the animal mind is Completely impenetrable to modern analysis That's why even discussing its presence is mitigated against so intensely Well, I don't want to spend too much time on this early facet of the emergence thing I want to move ahead and show that as Pastoralism developed as the domestic relationship between cattle human beings and mushrooms settled down into a self-reinforcing cycle of consciousness language arose religion arose of the goddess Oriented variety and the connection of the cow to the goddess is there at the dawn time There is no question about it language Seems to have been the particular prerogative of women in the early emergent phases. This is Possibly because men were involved in hunting Activities where great premium is placed on silent stealthiness well women were engaged in as gatherers in the hunting gathering phase women were engaged in gathering plants and as all botanists can tell you gathering plants involves an extensive taxonomic language so that the difference the minute differences between Cereal grains and insects and all of these things need to be linguistically defined and characterized and to this day a taxonomic description of a plant is a joy see and thrill to read because you know sub apically Calabarus with lanceolate trifolium and so on for many many lines But in a strange way that is a law repeated over and over again through history each advance somehow outsmarts itself and the wonderful linguistic depth which women attained as gatherers through the production of folk taxonomy Eventually led them to a terrible discovery the discovery of Agriculture because they learned that rather than maintain this vast library of shifting information about seasonal plants randomly distributed or distributed according to the whims of nature They could in fact focus on a very small number of plants learn how to grow these plants learn their needs alone and At that point the retreat was on and the dualism was fully in place and there was that which was domesticated that which was of the heart and that which was of the Ousland the howling unknown that which was beyond the pale I think it was Weston LeBar great old anthropologist who felt he said Halicinogens can only be used in hunting and gathering cultures because when agriculturalists use them It makes it impossible to get up at dawn and go ho the field And so suddenly the gods become the corn gods and the wheat gods gods of symbolizing domesticity and hard labor and and that sort of thing and at this moment of Agriculture which led to overproduction which led to trade which led to cities and so forth There is a beginning of the breaking away of this symbiotic relationship Which had bound? Human beings to nature to this time and I don't mean this Metaphorically, I mean I want to be taken seriously as proposing that the all we of modernity is the consequences of a disruptive symbiotic relationship between ourselves and vegetable nature and that Only a restoration of this in some form is going to Carry us into a full inheritance of our birthright as human beings Now what did this symbiotic relationship? consist of what was the effect of this psychedelic use this embeddedness of language using cognition using but stoned primates In the natural order well, I submit to you that what it was or how it acted operationally was as a Feminizing pheromone That's the continuous exposure to this tremendum represented by the hallucinogenic Lee induced ecstasy acted to continuously dissolve that portion of the psyche which as moderns we call the male ego and I don't mean that it only worked on men. I mean that wherever in human personalities this certain catch began to form and build like a calcareous tumor in the personality the psycholytic presence of the undeniable fact of the tremendum tended to dissolve this back into Dow Psychic hell however you wish to style it and that the evolution of language then setting up this movement off into specialization and the movement away from nature set up the consequences of The all we which permeates Western civilization. It is only in Western civilization that you get this steady focus on this monotheistic ideal and working out the implications of what is essentially a pathological personality pattern the pattern of the omniscient omnipresent all-knowing wrathful male deity No one you would invite to your garden party It's very interesting that this ideal is the the only instance the only Hypothesization of deity that I know of that has no Congress with woman at any point in the theological myth the God of Western civilization has nothing to do with women and the presence of the Sophia and the presence of the martyr dolorosa and all of these things have only been tolerated as heresies in the Western tradition and it is the Western tradition that has the most continuous break With this symbiotic relationship in other words we have wandered into a state of prolonged neurosis because of the absence of a direct pipeline to the unconscious and we have then fallen victim to priest craft of every conceivable sort a Similar situation which may give us some objective perspective on our own Haunts the fate of those portions of indo-european humanity that went east instead of West in other words the whole story of Indian civilization is the story of a Masculine static hierarchically organized System coming into place in the wake of the loss of the secret of soma the loss of the portal to another kind of vegetable gnosis Well so Provided them that I have made my case and convinced you that this is all gospel What kind of options are there to someone who believes this well What that means is a brief survey of the anthropological opportunities to explore hallucinogenesis Presently afforded by societies living throughout the world There are of course the psilocybin complex discovered by Gordon Watson the magic mushrooms of Central Mexico which may have played a role in the Mayan and Toltec civilizations and the wider ranging pantropical stropharia cubensis psilocybe cubensis which Originated in Thailand, but is distributed throughout the warm tropics interesting all of these shamanically sanctioned hallucinogens are in the indole family a very narrow family of Compounds with the exception I almost blew it with the exception of mescaline which is in a different family a kind of Amphetamine but all the others including the morning glory complex with its LSD like alkaloids chanok Lavin and Gonamine the psilocybin complex which involves as I said several pandemic species and many highly indemnified species especially in the Pacific Northwest The Iboka cult of Gabon and Western Africa Which is sort of the exotic cousin of all of these things, but nevertheless structurally An indole and then the short-acting tryptamines and the beta Carbolines the short-acting tryptamines can be used separately the beta carbolines though Hallucinogenic in themselves are usually used as monoamine oxidase Inhibitors to enhance the effect of short-acting tryptamines. This is a highly evolved pharmacology and shamanic complex in South America One of the peculiar puzzles of shamanic anthropology and ethnobotany is the clustering of hallucinogenic plants in South America Why are the old world tropics the tropics of the malucas and Indonesia? Not equally rich in hallucinogenic flora No one can answer this question, but certainly Mesoamerica and the new world seems to be the great home of these things You notice that I don't mention any synthetics in the list this is because I would Sort of like to Peel away the vision producing plants from the whole almond dung of the of the drug problem and the drug issue Which is a whole other kettle of fish and has to do with the fates of nations and trillion dollars scamola and Who knows what else I? I prefer the Organic Antigen and recommend them to other people because I think their long history of shamanic usage is Is the first seal of approval that you must look for? I mean if these things have been used for thousands of years then you can be fairly confident that they do not cause tumors or Marriages or that this has because nature is far richer in exotic and poisonous and mutagenic and psychoactive chemicals than the human Pharmacopeia, I mean many things are avoided there are many potential Hallucinogens that are not utilized by human beings so there has been a certain trial and error selectivity applied to these things I Think it's important to confine oneself to Two compounds which are least insulting to the physical brain Not because the physical brain has anything to do with the mind particularly but because it certainly has to do with the metabolic end state of indole and So things which are alien to the brain should probably not be introduced into it one way of judging how long a relationship between a human population and a plant has been in place is to see how benign the compound is in human metabolism And if you take some plant and your knees are feeling rubbery three days later Or your eyes aren't in focus 48 hours later, then this is not a benign Compound this is not a compound where there has been a smooth Hand in glove fit with the human user This is why to my mind The tryptamines are so interesting and why another reason why? one I just thought of that I argue for the mushroom as the Primary hallucinogen involved in human origins because these things bear a weird resemblance to human neurochemistry The human brain and indeed all nervous systems run on five hydroxy tryptamines serotonin Nn dimethyltryptamine is the hallucinogenic compound of this Amazonian complex is the most powerful of all Hallucinogens in the human system and yet clears your system in a matter of minutes This argues for a great antiquity of the relationship between these things Well, so then having discussed options it would remain it seems to discuss techniques Since it's almost what Huxley called the gratuitous grace all Conditions for success can be present and one can still fail Although not if all conditions for success are present and one does it over and over again Maybe there's a maybe there's a temporal variable there. I'm not sure but Technique to me is a kind of us I'm reluctant to talk about it because it seems so obvious to me what good technique is I? Mean you sit down you shut up and you pay attention Is basically the good technique and then the footnotes add on an empty stomach in a dark room Feeling comfortable and then sit down shut up pay attention It's something which happens behind the eyelids it is not a debted Hallucination although it begins like you get a hallucination I've been talking about this kind of stuff now for about ten years Publicly like this and one of the major things the major Conceptual and linguistic problem to get over is to actually convey to people What's being talked about? Because probably I would assume 95% of the people in this room have something under their belt Which they call drug experience but did you know that yours is different from everybody else's and That it these things range from you know mild tingling in the feet to You know language fails and and the thing to put across is the reality of the presence of this thing and this is the importance in talking to a group with an interest in transpersonal psychology The situation that we now reside in is not one of seeking the answer but facing the answer The answer has been found it just happens to lie on the wrong side of the fence of social toleration and legality And so we're just forced into this strange little war dance where everybody knows That psychedelics are the most powerful instrument for the study of the mind conceivable and yet You know a lot of people are still Psychologically involved in the academic and university system trying to Ignore the fact that the tool has been placed in our hands like the 16th century When the telescope has invented we have proven that we are not large enough to take the tool into our own hands without a social and intellectual transformation and I think it must begin in the field of psychology by acknowledging that if If what we are involved in if what this paradigm transform is is the archaic Revival and we really can create a caring refeminized echo-sensitive global world By going back to these very very old models Then it isn't going to be possible to do it on the strength of political exhortation and rap Alone, it's going to have to rest on an experience that just shakes you to your roots that is real and that is generalized and that can then be talked about and dissected we need to acknowledge the depth of our dilemma and The real truth, I think that we know about our options out I mean we're playing with half the deck as long as we tolerate that the cardinals of government and science should dictate where human curiosity Can legitimately send its attention and where it cannot I mean it's a it's a essentially preposterous Situation it is essentially a civil rights issue because what we're talking about here is the repression of a religious sensibility in fact not a religious sensibility the Religious sensibility not built on some con game spun out by eunuchs but based on the symbiotic relationship that was in place for our species for 50,000 years before the advent of history writing priest craft and propaganda So it's a clarion call to recover a birthright however uncomfortable that may make us a call to realize that life lived in the absence of the psychedelic experience that primordial shamanism is based on is life trivialized life denied life enslaved to the ego and its fear of dissolution in this mysterious Mama Matrix, which is all around us and which apparently extends to infinity and where our historical future Actually lies This is the other thing it is now very clear that techniques of mind human interfacing oncology of the synthetic variety all kinds of manipulative techniques all kinds of data storage imaging and retrieval techniques all of this is coalescing toward the potential of a truly demonic or angelic kind of self imaging of our culture and The people who are on the demonic side are fully aware of this and hurrying full tilt forward with their plans to capture everyone as a 100% believing consumer in inside some kind of beige furnished fascism that won't even raise a ripple So So The shamanic response in this situation I think is to push the art pedal through the floor This is again one of the primary functions of shamanism and the function that is tremendously synergized by the psychedelics they are in fact if as I spoke of them earlier pheromones which dissolve the male ego Then they are also pheromones which synergize the human imagination Cause us to connect and reconnect the contents of the collective mind in ever more architectonic plausible and yet self-fulfilling ways that I really think that the only escape from The trap which post-industrial male dominated politically manipulative drug running urban technocracy has in store for us the only escape is a forward escape a kind of rushing past it and brushing it aside by virtue of an immense expansion of unpredictable creativity, but what shamanizing means in the ordinary folkloric level is healing and The art function is somewhat in the shadow, but in the face of the need for a planetary Healing the art making function of the shaman is going to stand front and center because what this art making function is is generating a new guiding image of ourselves This is why it relates so fundamentally to psychology We need a new paradigmatic image that can take us forward Through the narrow neck of historical forces that we can feel impeding and resisting this more expansive more at ease more human more caring dimension that is insisting on being born and so in terms of political obligation in terms of reforming and trying to save the soul of psychology in terms of trying to goose along Connecting up the end of history with the beginning of history all of this impels us I think to look at shamanism as the paradigmatic model to take its techniques seriously even those which challenge the divinely ordained covenants of the constabulary Because if we don't do that as I said, we're not playing with a full deck You know years and years ago before the term psychedelic was settled on There was just a phenomenological Description these things were called consciousness expanding drugs Well, I think that's a very good term Think about our dilemma on this planet if the expansion of consciousness Does not loom large in the human future What kind of future is it going to be? Now to my mind the the psychedelic position is most fundamentally threatening when fully logically thought out Because it is an anti drug position and make no mistake about it the issue is Drugged how drug shall you be or to put it another way? Consciousness how conscious shall you be who shall be conscious? who shall be unconscious and Imagine if the Japanese had won World War two taken over America and introduced an insidious drug Which caused the average American to spend six and a half hours a day? consuming enemy propaganda But this is what was done not by the Japanese by ourselves. This is television six and a half hours a day Average that's the average so there must be people out there hooked on 24 hours a day or I visit people in LA you have one set on in every room So they're racking up a lot of time for the rest of it You see what is needed is an operational awareness of what we mean by drug a Drug is something which causes unexamined obsessive habituated behavior You don't examine your behavior. You just do it you do it obsessively you let nothing get in the way of it This is the kind of life we're being sold on every level to watch to consume to buy The psychedelic thing is off in this tiny corner never mentioned and yet it represents the only counterflow toward a tendency to just leave people in designer states of Consciousness not their designers, but the designers of Madison Avenue the Pentagon So forth and so on this is really happening I mean, it's only a matter of how tight you draw the metaphor that you realize you know, I've been coming and going from Los Angeles recently a lot and when the plane swings out over the Eastern part of the city looking down. It's like looking at a printed circuit all These curved driveways and cul-de-sacs with the same little Modules installed on each end of them and you realize you know that as long as the Reader's Digest Stays subscribed to and the TV stays on these are all interchangeable parts The this is this nightmarish thing which McLuhan and Wyndham Lewis and others Foresaw the creation of the public the public has no history Has no future lives in a golden moment created by credit which binds them Ineluctably to a fascist system that is never criticized This is the ultimate consequence [applause] This is the ultimate consequence of having broken off this symbiotic relationship with the vegetable feminine maternal matrix of the planet This is what ended partnership. This is what ended balance between the sexes This is what set us on the long slide We can now examine the options available and put in place archaic options which will restore this balance and To the good credit of people like Dick Schultes and Gordon Watson and Albert Hoffman We have in this century Taken into our hands the tools the information and the means to do this but Psychology there had better not be a Nuremberg Because not enough people have stood up for this people have contented themselves with Ratomorphism for 25 years when they knew in their hearts that it was wrong Feeling guilty out there [laughter] You could cheer to show that it wasn't you So now I think you know the culture crisis grows ever more Intense the stakes rise ever higher if there were ever a time to be heard and be counted and Try and clarify thinking on these issues. It would be now because You know there is a major attack on the Bill of Rights underway in the guise of a so-called drug bill and Somehow the drug issue is even more frightening than communism even more insidious McCarthy told America that communism was under the bed. He was wrong Ronald Reagan and George Bush tell America that drugs are in the living room and they're right It is here. It is real. It is the hydrogen bomb of the third world and the quality of rhetoric the quality of rhetoric emanating from Therapists and psychologists and psychoanalysts is going to have to radically improve or We are going to have happen to us what happened to genetics in the Soviet Union. We're going to be Lysenko eyes we're going to be made lily-white and all Opportunity for exploring this dimension is going to be closed off almost as a footnote to the suppression of these pathetic poisonous narcotics which are mostly dealt by governments anyway but the Psychedelic issue as I said, it's a civil rights issue It's a civil liberties issue the reason women couldn't be given the vote in the 19th century There was a very simple overpowering reason that was always given it would destroy society and That's the reason given This was also the reason why the king could not give up a divine right the right of consanguinity Chaos would result and this is why we're told drugs cannot be legalized because society would disintegrate This is just nonsense most societies have always operated in the light of various habits based on plans the whole history of Mankind could be written as a series of made and broken relationships with plants think about the influence of tobacco on mercantilism in 17th and 18th century Europe Think about the influence of coffee on the modern office worker or the way the British influenced opium policy in the Far East to rule China or the way the CIA Used heroin in the American ghettos in the 1960s to choke off black dissent and black dissatisfaction with the war History is about these plant relationships. They can be raised into consciousness Integrated into social policy and used to create a more caring meaningful world Or they can be denied the way sexuality was denied until the force of the work of Freud and others just made it Impossible to maintain the fiction any longer This choice of how quickly we develop into a mature Community able to address this issue is entirely with us I think and certainly people like Stan Grof and others have worked valiantly To keep this kind of thing alive, but my god, you can count them on the fingers of one hand So That's really all I wanted to say. I left a I left a half an hour for questions At this point vision plants transpersonal challenge continues with an informal question and answer period To make it easier for you the listener to follow along with this segment sounds true. We'll repeat the questions from the audience The first question why don't you mention that DMT is an endogenous neurotransmitter and a schedule one drug Yes DMT the most powerful of all hallucinogens Occurs in the human brain as a normal part of metabolism It also is a schedule one drug when so you're all holding and This might be the basis for some kind of Case to just show what absolute poppycock all this nonsense is People have been made illegal probably they should have thought of that sooner as a solution to the drug problem It seems to me that often psychedelic insights are co-opted by the larger society and perverted Don't you think that this is what happened in the 1960s? And my other question is can you say anything about people who experience difficulties with mushrooms in terms of electrical storms and seizures? You know understanding Passes everywhere the information is really neutral These things how they work the information they carry back to us how we apply it Sort of depends on the moral order that we're embedded in to a large degree. I think the 60s were Probably misplayed But on the other hand it seems to be the last decade when anything happened The lid has been utterly on ever since it's an illusion all this change There is no change. I mean we're living in some kind of weird eschatological hiatus well the people who rig the game Try to send out for new batteries or something I don't know what's going on, but there's a sense of an immense There's energy for change change building when it comes Which I don't think will be before this election But when it ultimately comes, I think it will probably be fairly spectacular. It's astonishing Actually the way in which change has been halted Everyone is running around saying change change change But on the other hand there is a curious There is a curious sense in which things have become eerily dreamlike and still While we just teeter on the edge of the end of history and the same personalities the same design Elements everything has looked the same in the galleries for 20 years there is an eerie suspension perhaps because the the 60s did Anticipate so much, but it took 20 years to live them out as to your other question about physical difficulties with mushrooms The literature is not large It's generally considered fairly safe That doesn't mean it isn't strange, and it doesn't mean people don't become alarmed a friend of mine recently Thought he was having a heart attack and After he'd been taken to the emergency room and put on ten machines and all this stuff He said to the doctor on duty He said is the mushroom doing this to me and he said no no you're having an anxiety attack We get these all the time from people who haven't taken mushrooms So this is a an oasis of liberalism. I didn't expect to find Sir How would you explain the widespread use of sacred substances as party drugs in our culture? Why doesn't this occur in native cultures this use of sacred substances as party drugs? Well, I think it took place in our culture because there was no one to guide this and that the real truth about it is the real Experience is so deep and so boundary dissolving that it's frightening and A lot of people took these things Only in order to be able to say that they had done so and if they had a light trip They just said to themselves. Thank God it didn't work for me And now I can say I know about it and pretend to be an expert, but I saved my ass The feeling I got in the 60s work from the people who didn't want to take it was they knew damn Well, they were crazy. You know, they just mentioned to them accessing the unconscious and they is froze in mid-step in the in the traditional shamanic situation there are Elder shamans who know what you're shooting for and they won't let you out of the box Until they're satisfied that you've gotten the whammy So there's no evading it. So yes, I think that's a good point. The way it should be taken is reverently in a calm quiet empty clear situation and Then the question of the the sitter Certainly there should be no more than one other person there and You know, I outrage people and give probably bad medical advice by saying, you know It is very good to do it by yourself But you know, it just can't be beat because then there's no game, you know, there is no surface There is nothing to maintain But that's not for the beginner. I think But nobody should do therapy who hasn't had these experiences because this is where you see the full spectrum of what the human Organism is capable of and it's astonishing. I mean, yes, sir Do you feel the awareness or enlightenment of the sitter is a powerful factor in the nature of a psychedelic session? Absolutely, that's why having a sitter is no casual decision It would almost be better not to have a sitter than to have a bad one, you know Because then they're going to become your problem Here, would you comment on the difference between having a psychedelic session in a dark room compared to being in a natural outdoor setting? to me This really revolves around Psychological issues I have a I guess it's a prejudice It's so strong in me that I think it's a piece of revealed gnosis but I have a prejudice in favor of outlandish visual hallucinations To me that is the sine qua non of the experience that for me always defines Success. Well the kind of hallucinations that I'm talking about actually requires silent darkness in order to form Now if you take something like psilocybin or one of these that I mentioned out in nature Nature is you know, wonderful filled with light extremely affirmative complex And you can dissolve into it. I guess there's something of the scientist in me I guess and I I wanted to see what it was The ding on seash the thing in itself with no music No, pretty scenery No tactile sensation just what can it do with pure velvet darkness behind closed eyelids? And the reward is that's where it works best Because then there is nothing for it to interfere with it or to Set it thematically in one direction or another Finally you can see what is this bird on its own, you know, and and so that's why I recommend darkness and isolation As a person who has never taken psychedelics, could you describe for me what a typical psychedelic trip is like? Let me begin by saying each one is different, but I won't stop there In the case of psilocybin like most of these indoles They vary but it come you you take it on an empty stomach. I do not fast elaborately maybe six hours of not eating and then you take it on an empty stomach in silent darkness and I always basically calm down and ritualize The space as soon as I've taken Whatever it is. I mean we were amazed in South America with these ayahuasca arrows. They would Stop everybody talking Everybody would knock back their hit of ayahuasca And then the party would continue as though nothing had happened for 30 minutes And then they would call the meeting to order then it would happen ten minutes later But the way I do it is I sit for the hour hour of 20 minutes leading up to it and I carry out what? Catholics call an examination of conscience This is where you think of the commandments whatever they may be one by one and Decide if you've violated any of them since the last time you did this and I do this not In a planned fashion or out of piety but more out of fear Because if I were to discover a huge violation I might well, I don't know what I would do the purpose seems to be to anticipate any bad trip in the hour and 20 minutes before it actually comes on and Then at about the hour hour and 20 minute mark with your eyes closed you begin to see what is called streaming just Streaming lights and it's sort of what you see when you press on your eyelids these things you see when you press on your eyelids Don't do it if you're wearing contact lenses Are called phosphine imagery and and there can be a wave of that and then There's a feeling a full body feeling as these you can almost see thousands of these drug molecules fitting into their receptors in the synaptic cleft and the electrical energy beginning to rise and Then there is what my silly odd brilliantly named the rupture of plane and The rupture of plane is fairly rapid. Well, then once the plane is ruptured you're in some other plane and it is then Then it is what it is. And this is what you don't find out till you get there. It's some kind of x-ray of your self but you're unrecognizable to yourself and There is Information the most startling thing about these endo hallucinogens is the information That we're not talking here about geometric patterns and and whirling is gigs and stuff like that. We're talking about scenes songs Strings of imagery bursts of poetic flight that hover between being felt seen and tasted that go on for minutes on end as though Meaning itself has somehow taken on a self replicatory life in the visible surface of the mind and Then it's all about you know, how you come to terms with this If you are there have always been a very tight ass denying rational fearful Sort of person. Well, then you're just completely completely appalled Because boundary has dissolved You don't know whether you're Agnes or Angus. You don't know whether it's up or down and You know It it looks to you. It's like the EB white cartoon. It looks like megalomania to me Martha So And you know the old style model was that you're supposed to swing from heaven states to hell states and that the Tibetans have Something to say about this. Well, I don't know. I think it's pretty much up for grabs It's I don't know it it builds in a few of images and meaning that finally leave the realm of the Unsayable and then it just goes off into what Wittgenstein called the unspeakable and there you know It's the piece that passeth Understanding and all things are made right, but you can't say very much about that when you come down Could you comment on your experience with the personality of the mushroom with the mushroom as an entity? Oh Yeah, how could I have gotten this far? Yes It would have been remiss not to mention it because I think it's the central Conundrum at least for me personally and I would think for any rational Person dealing with these things. We're not just talking about passive agents of Transformation and slideshows of alien worlds and stuff like that the central Mystery is that the thing is animate but that there is at the center of these experiences an organized Intellect key an ally a spirit and other and an I vow relationship is possible and This is just now this leads us to the to the edge of simply Wild hyperbole and out into the realm of the utterly improbable We have no place in our world view for something like this I mean, is it an extraterrestrial? Is it Gaia is it as some unions have said? merely autonomous segments of the personality of that have slipped from the reins of the egos control and now return to Haunt us as gnomes could bury water spirits and silks of the air well, I don't know but But the Who does know The the point not to be lost sight of is that again, this is real This is not rare. This is common on Psilocybin what the what you don't get with I don't believe anyway But what you don't get with yoga where you certainly don't get with mystical experience is any degree of on-command repeatability of these bizarre Mental and physical states and yet with something like DMT if you get somebody who is transported into a realm of self-transforming chattering machine nails Chances are they will get elves every time well Imagine the impact of this on the rational mind that you can be swept into a space where you you Have to entertain the possibility that is this a UFO abduction or am I dead or am I just simply? God forbid totally insane now or what is happening the animate Intellect key at the center of the experience is I think the greatest challenge for psychology for Historical assimilation of this phenomenon generally because what is it? I mean our science is trained to allow the slim possibility of Extraterrestrials and so our electro I mean our radio telescopes point to the stars Shifting millions of signals at a time searching for a radio civilization but what is it going to do to the forward thrust of historical continuity if Right next door in the human mind There is an other so other but it cannot be assimilated and yet so Accessible that it's only a matter of choice to stand in its awesome presence I don't have the answer to this question. I think it's amazing that I'm able to articulate the question because You know it is it is against 500 years of Expectation and Programming that we are finally able to Wake up almost as from a fever and say my god Nature is alive It's talking to us. It's alive. No, you know, this is not a metaphor. I am NOT a romantic This is not an artistic or aesthetic stance Nature is alive Someone is on the line when then you know as far as who I Don't rush in to say I mean, I'm very wary of anyone who claims to know who? Because the the problem seems to me one of great subtlety and depth How can we know who is the other until we know who is the self and perhaps one? problem will cast significance on the other Speaking of the self isn't any discipline or spiritual path Ultimately the threshold looking into the light of the one who sees And if one can do that without physical substances influencing the body look through that window and experience that luminous Beingness isn't that sufficient without the use of physical substances? Well, I think that's the challenge that the temporary encounter with this thing sets us That yes, if we can encounter it temporarily through these shamanic means Then must it not become the historical arrow of our becoming? What must we not then recognize that this new Mano some must? rise into history as a fact of Realizing the eschaton. That's what I think that actually the the shamans are seeing And have always seen some kind of trans historical object some kind of vast Hypostatization of ourselves as deity that is casting a shadow back through time and that all magic all religion all vision is an anticipation of this future state What excites me is the notion that we may have reached the point in this process where we can? Consciously know that that is what we are doing that that is what we are about that our task is the architectonic expression of the divine other and then set about it without any more haggling and Tail-dragging in other words to realize what our destiny is will cause us to move toward it with much greater Facility and smoothness this woman at the door. I have a son who was in a fog for two years using dope What do we say to our children about this? well This this is a real problem. I think it goes to the general state of the drug Problem which is it is one of utter ignorance and Victimization when the government whines and yaps about education, but they're not doing any Education I mean the what do you mean by dope when they have so linguistically? Impoverished us that we can't even make a distinction between marijuana methamphetamine cocaine LSD what have you a whole new vocabulary of consequences? Has to be created. That's what I said earlier. What we don't want is Habitual obsessive unexamined Activity we don't want it in commerce. We don't want it in drug use. We don't want it in social relations We don't want unexamined habitual forms of activity that are obsessively expressed what we do want is conscious caring self-examining inquisitive Thinking people and institutions so whatever mitigates against that has to be seen as a drug and Things like television money Propaganda all of these things then are seen as great Evils which they may not have been seen that way before we have to get smart You have to be smart to use drugs. You have to be smart to survive a planetary Catastrophe now our ancestors were smart. They got us this far It wasn't easy five times the ice moved south from the poles Five times the human family was islanded and divided by walls of moving ice It hasn't been easy all the way along until a hundred years ago. There were no inoculations for infectious diseases most women died in childbirth Many children died in childbirth the average lifespan even in Western societies was 35 Years old so it You know, it's going to be tough until we get to heaven there has to be Intelligence and you know one way to be intelligent is to Decondition our lives are not going to make sense if we tolerate Propaganda in our lives you cannot be Half slave and half free you cannot be half hip and half yuck You know so The main thing with the drug thing is to get smart get real smart fast Or you will lose your children and your mind and your freedom because all this is at stake This audience is has supposedly a stake in psychology in Transpersonal psychology which means the destiny and fate of the human mind so getting smart about the the natures and Opportunities of chemistry archaic and modern should be right at the top of the agenda We're going to have to end this. 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