WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:07.660 Thinking Allowed 00:07.660 --> 00:11.660 Conversations on the Leading Edge of Knowledge and Discovery 00:11.660 --> 00:14.660 with Psychologist Jeffrey Mishlove 00:14.660 --> 00:33.890 Hello and welcome. I'm Jeffrey Mishlove. 00:33.890 --> 00:40.890 Throughout recorded history, human society has been haunted by reports of unidentified flying objects in our skies, 00:40.890 --> 00:46.890 many of which have defied all attempts at scientific explanation or understanding. 00:46.890 --> 00:49.890 What are these phenomena and how can they be explained? 00:49.890 --> 00:53.890 With me today is Terence McKenna, a philosopher and thinker of note 00:53.890 --> 00:57.890 in the area of altered states of consciousness and alternative realities. 00:57.890 --> 01:01.890 Terence is the co-author with his brother Dennis of The Invisible Landscape 01:01.890 --> 01:05.890 and also Psilocybin, The Magic Mushroom Grower's Guide. 01:05.890 --> 01:09.890 He is a founding member of Botanical Dimensions, a nonprofit organization 01:09.890 --> 01:15.890 devoted to preserving and studying psychoactive plants used by native cultures throughout the world, 01:15.890 --> 01:16.890 and he is also the co-author of the book, 01:16.890 --> 01:20.890 and also the developer of a computer software package called Time Wave Zero, 01:20.890 --> 01:26.890 designed to augment interpretation of the ancient Chinese book of prophecy, the I Ching. 01:26.890 --> 01:27.890 Welcome, Terence. 01:27.890 --> 01:29.890 It's a pleasure to be here with you. 01:29.890 --> 01:32.890 It's a pleasure to have you here with me also. 01:32.890 --> 01:39.890 You know, the UFO phenomenon is striking because it's so bizarre. 01:39.890 --> 01:45.890 It seems as if the reports that come in about UFOs defy any attempt whatsoever 01:45.890 --> 01:47.890 to categorize them. 01:47.890 --> 01:54.890 I guess from my point of view, I can only assume that there are probably many different interpretations of this event. 01:54.890 --> 02:01.890 I think given your background as a student of shamanism and altered states of consciousness 02:01.890 --> 02:06.890 and alternative realities, you have some unique perspectives on the UFO phenomenon. 02:06.890 --> 02:10.890 I wonder if we could get into that material. 02:10.890 --> 02:11.890 Yes. 02:11.890 --> 02:14.890 Well, the ordinary approach to the UFOs has been to view them 02:14.890 --> 02:19.890 as visitors or intruders from a nearby star system 02:19.890 --> 02:28.890 that have come in metal ships for reasons of trade or scientific investigation or military conquest. 02:28.890 --> 02:30.890 Or missionary activity. 02:30.890 --> 02:34.890 Or missionary activity to the vicinity of our planet. 02:34.890 --> 02:41.890 And this was a myth that sprang up concomitant with the modern wave of sightings 02:41.890 --> 02:43.890 that began shortly after World War II. 02:43.890 --> 02:51.890 As time has passed and the number of sightings have gone from hundreds to thousands 02:51.890 --> 02:53.890 to hundreds of thousands of instances, 02:53.890 --> 02:58.890 as the myth has fleshed itself out with sub-themes, 02:58.890 --> 03:02.890 the theme of abduction, the theme of telepathic contact, 03:02.890 --> 03:09.890 it's become much more difficult to fit all the known facts 03:09.890 --> 03:12.890 into the simple model of space. 03:12.890 --> 03:16.890 The space faring visitors from another world. 03:16.890 --> 03:23.890 So what we are left with then are a number of more exotic competing theories 03:23.890 --> 03:28.890 in the so-called postmodern phase of thinking about the UFO. 03:28.890 --> 03:32.890 Probably the best known of these alternative explanations 03:32.890 --> 03:37.890 was the one pioneered by the Swiss psychologist Carl Jung, 03:37.890 --> 03:42.890 who in 1953 wrote a book called Flying Saucers, 03:42.890 --> 03:46.890 a modern myth of things seen in the sky. 03:46.890 --> 03:53.890 And Jung was at great pains to, without passing judgment on the reality 03:53.890 --> 03:56.890 of the saucers, of the things seen, 03:56.890 --> 03:58.890 to interpret them psychologically, 03:58.890 --> 04:02.890 to interpret them as one would interpret a dream. 04:02.890 --> 04:05.890 And he saw in their circular form, 04:05.890 --> 04:10.890 in their scintillating, shining, alchemical brilliance, 04:10.890 --> 04:13.890 a symbol of human wholeness, 04:13.890 --> 04:18.890 and felt that they were a symbol of our collective yearning 04:18.890 --> 04:21.890 for a kind of totality and individuation. 04:21.890 --> 04:25.890 Now, in a way, this kind of explanation is very satisfying. 04:25.890 --> 04:29.890 However, it is not satisfying to the person 04:29.890 --> 04:33.890 who has immediately undergone a very strange 04:33.890 --> 04:37.890 and a very real-seeming experience. 04:37.890 --> 04:40.890 Unless such a person were told great messages 04:40.890 --> 04:42.890 of hope for the planet. 04:42.890 --> 04:46.890 Well, and this is a persistent part of the flying saucer phenomenon, 04:46.890 --> 04:49.890 that people who have close contact with the saucers 04:49.890 --> 04:53.890 return with messages of universal brotherhood 04:53.890 --> 04:59.890 and benevolence with stories of a beneficent hegemony 04:59.890 --> 05:01.890 of organized intelligence, 05:01.890 --> 05:05.890 where wiser, older worlds and civilizations 05:05.890 --> 05:10.890 help younger and less mature people 05:10.890 --> 05:14.890 tour worlds toward a kind of galactic citizenship. 05:14.890 --> 05:15.890 However... 05:15.890 --> 05:17.890 That is just one thread of the evidence. 05:17.890 --> 05:19.890 It is one thread of the evidence, 05:19.890 --> 05:22.890 and it is not really well supported by the evidence. 05:22.890 --> 05:26.890 Jacques Vallée, who is one of the foremost commentators 05:26.890 --> 05:30.890 on the phenomenon, has been at great pains to point out 05:30.890 --> 05:32.890 that with the flying saucer phenomenon, 05:32.890 --> 05:38.890 we are dealing with thousands and thousands of incidents per year 05:38.890 --> 05:40.890 throughout the world. 05:40.890 --> 05:44.890 It is very hard, even at our own primitive level 05:44.890 --> 05:46.890 of scientific sophistication, 05:46.890 --> 05:49.890 we can learn a great deal about a planet 05:49.890 --> 05:52.890 by sending a single probe to that planet. 05:52.890 --> 05:56.890 What kind of scientific program of investigation 05:56.890 --> 06:00.890 requires thousands and thousands of appearances? 06:00.890 --> 06:02.890 And if we make the assumption 06:02.890 --> 06:05.890 that not all appearances are observed, 06:05.890 --> 06:09.890 but that in fact only a small number are observed, 06:09.890 --> 06:13.890 then the number of appearances that must actually be going on 06:13.890 --> 06:16.890 soars toward an astronomical number. 06:16.890 --> 06:19.890 It suggests we are dealing with an interpenetration 06:19.890 --> 06:23.890 by an alien dimension on an almost industrial scale. 06:23.890 --> 06:27.890 Of course, a single probe could cause thousands of appearances. 06:27.890 --> 06:31.890 If it were of a sophisticated enough nature, that is right. 06:31.890 --> 06:33.890 The approach that I have taken 06:33.890 --> 06:39.890 that has characterized my work with this phenomenon 06:39.890 --> 06:41.890 was first of all to say 06:41.890 --> 06:46.890 we have not carried out a sufficiently in-depth survey 06:46.890 --> 06:49.890 of the life already on this planet 06:49.890 --> 06:52.890 to be able to say that at some time in the past 06:52.890 --> 06:56.890 life did not arrive here and thrive here, 06:56.890 --> 07:01.890 that is not part of the general heritage of life on this planet, 07:01.890 --> 07:04.890 but that has somehow come in from the outside. 07:04.890 --> 07:09.890 My candidate for that kind of an intrusive extraterrestrial 07:09.890 --> 07:12.890 would be probably a mushroom of some sort 07:12.890 --> 07:16.890 or a spore-bearing life form, 07:16.890 --> 07:19.890 because spores are very impervious 07:19.890 --> 07:23.890 to low temperatures and high radiation, 07:23.890 --> 07:26.890 the kind of environment met with in outer space. 07:26.890 --> 07:29.890 In other words, a mushroom spore could conceivably 07:29.890 --> 07:33.890 even waft itself up through the atmosphere of our planet 07:33.890 --> 07:35.890 and enter into empty space. 07:35.890 --> 07:38.890 Oh, there is no question but what this is happening, 07:38.890 --> 07:42.890 that through what is called Brownian motion, 07:42.890 --> 07:45.890 which is sort of random percolation, 07:45.890 --> 07:48.890 spores do reach the outer edge of our atmosphere 07:48.890 --> 07:52.890 and there in the presence of cosmic rays and meteors 07:52.890 --> 07:55.890 and rare highly energetic events, 07:55.890 --> 07:58.890 occasionally a very small percentage 07:58.890 --> 08:02.890 of these biological objects are wafted into space. 08:02.890 --> 08:06.890 We even possess meteorites that are believed to be 08:06.890 --> 08:08.890 pieces of the Martian soil. 08:08.890 --> 08:12.890 The Martian surface thrown out by impacts 08:12.890 --> 08:15.890 on the Martian surface of asteroidal material. 08:15.890 --> 08:19.890 In fact, I think part of the grappling with the UFO mystery 08:19.890 --> 08:21.890 is going to lead to the conclusion 08:21.890 --> 08:24.890 that space is not an impermeable 08:24.890 --> 08:27.890 and insurmountable barrier to biology. 08:27.890 --> 08:31.890 That in fact, planets are islands 08:31.890 --> 08:36.890 and life does occasionally wash in from distant places 08:36.890 --> 08:38.890 and if conditions are correct, 08:38.890 --> 08:41.890 can take hold. 08:41.890 --> 08:43.890 However, let me say in the UFO phenomenon, 08:43.890 --> 08:47.890 we are dealing or we presuppose that we are dealing 08:47.890 --> 08:51.890 not simply with the phenomenon of extraterrestrial biology, 08:51.890 --> 08:55.890 but with the phenomenon of extraterrestrial intelligence. 08:55.890 --> 08:59.890 And this is a hackle-raising notion. 08:59.890 --> 09:02.890 We are dealing with more than mushroom spores. 09:02.890 --> 09:04.890 We are dealing with more than mushroom spores, 09:04.890 --> 09:06.890 at least as ordinarily conceived. 09:06.890 --> 09:09.890 I think the thing that has been overlooked 09:09.890 --> 09:13.890 in almost all discussions of extraterrestrial contact 09:13.890 --> 09:19.890 is how strange the extraterrestrial is likely to be. 09:19.890 --> 09:23.890 It isn't going to be a friendly elfin little feller 09:23.890 --> 09:25.890 with a beating heart of gold. 09:25.890 --> 09:29.890 It isn't even going to be some of the more extravagantly 09:29.890 --> 09:32.890 grotesque creations out of Hollywood. 09:32.890 --> 09:35.890 Conditions and time spans in the universe, 09:35.890 --> 09:38.890 are long enough and varied enough 09:38.890 --> 09:41.890 that I would bet that the real task 09:41.890 --> 09:43.890 with extraterrestrial intelligence 09:43.890 --> 09:46.890 will be to recognize it, you see. 09:46.890 --> 09:51.890 We have no conception of how species-bound 09:51.890 --> 09:55.890 our images of life and biology are. 09:55.890 --> 09:59.890 This is a place where we have never been asked 09:59.890 --> 10:03.890 to confront to what degree the monkey within us 10:03.890 --> 10:05.890 is channeled our energy. 10:05.890 --> 10:07.890 We are not aware of the effects 10:07.890 --> 10:09.890 of our expectations and perceptions. 10:09.890 --> 10:11.890 Well, it is the case that on this planet 10:11.890 --> 10:13.890 virtually all known life forms 10:13.890 --> 10:16.890 are based on the same DNA molecule. 10:16.890 --> 10:19.890 Well, except that have all life forms been examined 10:19.890 --> 10:23.890 to see to what degree they deviate percentage-wise 10:23.890 --> 10:27.890 from let's say a standard DNA molecule? 10:27.890 --> 10:29.890 The answer is no. 10:29.890 --> 10:32.890 The sequencing of DNA is a very expensive process 10:32.890 --> 10:34.890 and is only carried out 10:34.890 --> 10:38.890 in laboratory organisms with an extensive history 10:38.890 --> 10:40.890 of involvement in medical research 10:40.890 --> 10:45.890 like E. coli or the ordinary laboratory rat. 10:45.890 --> 10:47.890 No, there's a great deal we don't know 10:47.890 --> 10:49.890 about life on Earth. 10:49.890 --> 10:51.890 We don't know when the fungi 10:51.890 --> 10:54.890 entered into the evolutionary chain. 10:54.890 --> 10:57.890 We don't know what kind of intelligence 10:57.890 --> 11:01.890 is really possessed by the cephalopods, 11:01.890 --> 11:03.890 the shell-less mollusks that include 11:03.890 --> 11:05.890 the octopi. 11:05.890 --> 11:08.890 The intelligence of dolphins has been studied 11:08.890 --> 11:10.890 by Lilly and others. 11:10.890 --> 11:14.890 The intelligence of the large primates 11:14.890 --> 11:16.890 other than man. 11:16.890 --> 11:18.890 One way of looking at nature 11:18.890 --> 11:22.890 is that it is entirely linguistic intent. 11:22.890 --> 11:27.890 That DNA is in fact a way of uttering 11:27.890 --> 11:32.890 protein syntactical structures into matter. 11:32.890 --> 11:35.890 In other words, all of nature is like a poem. 11:35.890 --> 11:38.890 Yes, nature is a communicating system 11:38.890 --> 11:42.890 of some sort and the problem that we have 11:42.890 --> 11:45.890 is to transcend cultural languages, 11:45.890 --> 11:48.890 historically created languages 11:48.890 --> 11:50.890 with very limited applications 11:50.890 --> 11:53.890 and instead fall into phase 11:53.890 --> 11:56.890 with the communication systems 11:56.890 --> 11:59.890 that nature has placed all around us. 11:59.890 --> 12:01.890 One possible view of the flying saucer 12:01.890 --> 12:04.890 is that it is a kind of projection 12:04.890 --> 12:07.890 from the consciousness of the planet. 12:07.890 --> 12:09.890 That it is Gaia. 12:09.890 --> 12:12.890 That it is in fact a kind of alchemical object 12:12.890 --> 12:15.890 haunting human historical time 12:15.890 --> 12:18.890 with a symbol of totality. 12:18.890 --> 12:21.890 The kind of totality that our religions 12:21.890 --> 12:23.890 and our mystical yearnings 12:23.890 --> 12:26.890 are so at pains to concretize for us. 12:26.890 --> 12:31.890 But unless we as egocentric beings 12:31.890 --> 12:35.890 clarify our relationship to the unconscious 12:35.890 --> 12:37.890 then I think the flying saucer 12:37.890 --> 12:41.890 is going to remain quintessentially mysterious. 12:41.890 --> 12:43.890 This was Jung's view. 12:43.890 --> 12:45.890 One of the things that Jung pointed out in this book 12:45.890 --> 12:48.890 is that we must pay attention to the research 12:48.890 --> 12:51.890 which Dr. J.B. Rhine was doing at that time 12:51.890 --> 12:54.890 at Duke University in ESP and psychokinesis 12:54.890 --> 12:58.890 and that even if UFOs had a physical reality 12:58.890 --> 13:00.890 could be photographed or could be weighed 13:00.890 --> 13:02.890 and measured that they still might 13:02.890 --> 13:05.890 in some manner be projections of the human mind. 13:05.890 --> 13:07.890 Oh yes, this is an important point to make 13:07.890 --> 13:09.890 which the flying saucer people 13:09.890 --> 13:11.890 are forever misunderstanding 13:11.890 --> 13:14.890 and that is saying that the flying saucer 13:14.890 --> 13:16.890 is a psychic object 13:16.890 --> 13:20.890 does not mean that it is not a physical object. 13:20.890 --> 13:24.890 Jung in Mysterium Conjunctionis 13:24.890 --> 13:26.890 is at great pains to say 13:26.890 --> 13:28.890 that the realm of the psychic 13:28.890 --> 13:30.890 and the realm of the physical 13:30.890 --> 13:35.890 meet in a strange kind of never-never land 13:35.890 --> 13:37.890 that we have yet to create 13:37.890 --> 13:40.890 the intellectual tools to explore. 13:40.890 --> 13:43.890 This is where the mystery of synchronicity 13:43.890 --> 13:45.890 is going to come to rest, 13:45.890 --> 13:50.890 the mystery of all kinds of paranormal activity 13:50.890 --> 13:52.890 on the part of human beings 13:52.890 --> 13:54.890 and the mystery of the flying saucer. 13:54.890 --> 13:56.890 It's interesting you see that 13:56.890 --> 13:58.890 if you take the broad world 13:58.890 --> 14:00.890 of the so-called mystery 14:00.890 --> 14:03.890 parapsychological, shamanic, 14:03.890 --> 14:05.890 extraterrestrial, so forth 14:05.890 --> 14:10.890 and hypothesize another spatial dimension, 14:10.890 --> 14:12.890 one more spatial dimension, 14:12.890 --> 14:14.890 then suddenly all these mysteries 14:14.890 --> 14:16.890 become trivial. 14:16.890 --> 14:18.890 They are easily done. 14:18.890 --> 14:20.890 Locked boxes are opened, 14:20.890 --> 14:22.890 future events are discerned, 14:22.890 --> 14:25.890 lost objects are found. 14:25.890 --> 14:27.890 This sort of thing becomes 14:27.890 --> 14:29.890 quite the ordinary run of things. 14:29.890 --> 14:32.890 If we hypothesize dimensions 14:32.890 --> 14:34.890 hidden from ordinary experience. 14:34.890 --> 14:36.890 And of course there's serious work 14:36.890 --> 14:38.890 at this point in the field of 14:38.890 --> 14:40.890 unified field theory and physics 14:40.890 --> 14:42.890 to postulate other dimensions of space 14:42.890 --> 14:44.890 than we normally think of. 14:44.890 --> 14:45.890 That's right. 14:45.890 --> 14:47.890 The current physical models 14:47.890 --> 14:50.890 of the universe require 11 dimensions, 14:50.890 --> 14:53.890 11 integrated variables to describe, 14:53.890 --> 14:56.890 and that's physical models of the universe. 14:56.890 --> 14:58.890 If we then turn our attention 14:58.890 --> 15:01.890 to mind and realize that 15:01.890 --> 15:06.890 having no definition of what mind is, 15:06.890 --> 15:08.890 why then is there any mystery 15:08.890 --> 15:10.890 in the fact that we have no definition 15:10.890 --> 15:12.890 of what the UFO is? 15:12.890 --> 15:15.890 The mind is present at hand 15:15.890 --> 15:17.890 in every conscious moment. 15:17.890 --> 15:19.890 It has been our constant companion 15:19.890 --> 15:21.890 for 50,000 years. 15:21.890 --> 15:23.890 And we haven't a clue 15:23.890 --> 15:25.890 as to what it is. 15:25.890 --> 15:28.890 So therefore a manifestation 15:28.890 --> 15:30.890 of the other, the superego, 15:30.890 --> 15:32.890 or the extraterrestrial other, 15:32.890 --> 15:34.890 like the UFO, 15:34.890 --> 15:38.890 it is not surprising that it is a mystery. 15:38.890 --> 15:41.890 I always hark back to the words 15:41.890 --> 15:43.890 of J.B.S. Haldane, 15:43.890 --> 15:45.890 the great British enzymologist, 15:45.890 --> 15:46.890 who said, 15:46.890 --> 15:48.890 reality is not only stranger 15:48.890 --> 15:50.890 than we suppose, 15:50.890 --> 15:53.890 it may be stranger than we can suppose. 15:53.890 --> 15:55.890 Well that suggests to me that 15:55.890 --> 15:57.890 if we look at some of the most bizarre, 15:57.890 --> 15:59.890 anomalous cases that we have, 15:59.890 --> 16:00.890 such as UFOs, 16:00.890 --> 16:02.890 and we begin to ask ourselves, 16:02.890 --> 16:04.890 not so much what are they, 16:04.890 --> 16:05.890 because that's a mystery, 16:05.890 --> 16:07.890 but what is their function? 16:07.890 --> 16:09.890 How are they affecting us? 16:09.890 --> 16:11.890 That's like holding up a mirror to ourselves 16:11.890 --> 16:12.890 and it tells us a great deal 16:12.890 --> 16:14.890 about the basic mystery of our mind 16:14.890 --> 16:16.890 and our reality. 16:16.890 --> 16:18.890 Yes, this is the so-called postmodern approach 16:18.890 --> 16:20.890 to ask the question, 16:20.890 --> 16:22.890 not what is the UFO, 16:22.890 --> 16:24.890 but what is it doing to us? 16:24.890 --> 16:26.890 And Jacques Vallée pioneered 16:26.890 --> 16:27.890 this approach, 16:27.890 --> 16:29.890 and the answer is fascinating. 16:29.890 --> 16:32.890 What the UFOs are doing to us, 16:32.890 --> 16:34.890 to global society, 16:34.890 --> 16:37.890 is they are eroding faith in science 16:37.890 --> 16:41.890 by casting directly in the path of science 16:41.890 --> 16:43.890 a kind of gauntlet, 16:43.890 --> 16:45.890 a challenge, 16:45.890 --> 16:47.890 crack this, 16:47.890 --> 16:49.890 almost as though the cosmic giggle 16:49.890 --> 16:54.890 had shown up at the bachelor party of science 16:54.890 --> 16:56.890 to spoil the bag 16:56.890 --> 16:58.890 in the same way 16:58.890 --> 17:01.890 that the resurrection of Christ 17:01.890 --> 17:03.890 posed a tremendous problem 17:03.890 --> 17:05.890 for the intellectuals 17:05.890 --> 17:07.890 of late Roman antiquity, 17:07.890 --> 17:08.890 because they had no place 17:08.890 --> 17:09.890 in their worldview 17:09.890 --> 17:11.890 for someone rising from the dead. 17:11.890 --> 17:13.890 They were Greek materialists, 17:13.890 --> 17:15.890 atomists, essentially. 17:15.890 --> 17:17.890 In that same way, 17:17.890 --> 17:19.890 the UFO challenges 17:19.890 --> 17:21.890 the assumptions of science, 17:21.890 --> 17:24.890 and I think in that way, 17:24.890 --> 17:25.890 in that sense, 17:25.890 --> 17:27.890 Jung was really on to something 17:27.890 --> 17:29.890 when he saw it as coming 17:29.890 --> 17:31.890 from the unconscious. 17:31.890 --> 17:33.890 It is like an object 17:33.890 --> 17:34.890 coming from the unconscious 17:34.890 --> 17:37.890 with a compensatory function 17:37.890 --> 17:41.890 to turn us away from the rational 17:41.890 --> 17:43.890 and toward the intuitive, 17:43.890 --> 17:45.890 to turn us away from 17:45.890 --> 17:46.890 the paternalistic, 17:46.890 --> 17:48.890 Apollonian, 17:48.890 --> 17:52.890 solar masculine view of things 17:52.890 --> 17:54.890 and toward a kind of watery, 17:54.890 --> 17:56.890 lunar, 17:56.890 --> 17:58.890 mysterious, 17:58.890 --> 18:01.890 intuitively felt feminine force, 18:01.890 --> 18:04.890 almost as though the UFO 18:04.890 --> 18:06.890 is a manifestation of Gaia 18:06.890 --> 18:08.890 as mother goddess. 18:08.890 --> 18:10.890 Science as the proudest, 18:10.890 --> 18:11.890 pardon the word, 18:11.890 --> 18:14.890 erection of the rational mind 18:14.890 --> 18:18.890 then is challenged by something 18:18.890 --> 18:20.890 from an entirely other dimension, 18:20.890 --> 18:22.890 an entirely other realm 18:22.890 --> 18:24.890 that concretizes, 18:24.890 --> 18:25.890 for us, 18:25.890 --> 18:26.890 the culture crisis. 18:26.890 --> 18:27.890 And that is why 18:27.890 --> 18:28.890 I have gotten into UFOs. 18:28.890 --> 18:30.890 I think they are important 18:30.890 --> 18:31.890 for a resolution 18:31.890 --> 18:32.890 of the culture crisis. 18:32.890 --> 18:35.890 They concretize the struggle 18:35.890 --> 18:37.890 between the paternalistic masculine 18:37.890 --> 18:39.890 and the lunar feminine 18:39.890 --> 18:42.890 between a dominator society 18:42.890 --> 18:44.890 and the kind of partnership society 18:44.890 --> 18:47.890 that we require to survive. 18:47.890 --> 18:48.890 And yet, 18:48.890 --> 18:49.890 it seems as if that challenge 18:49.890 --> 18:51.890 is not a direct confrontation. 18:51.890 --> 18:53.890 As Vallée points out, 18:53.890 --> 18:55.890 UFOs are operating almost 18:55.890 --> 18:56.890 at the mythological level 18:56.890 --> 18:57.890 of our culture. 18:57.890 --> 18:58.890 They are not landing 18:58.890 --> 18:59.890 in the White House. 18:59.890 --> 19:02.890 They are not really challenging 19:02.890 --> 19:03.890 the military or NASA. 19:03.890 --> 19:05.890 No, they are very mercurial, 19:05.890 --> 19:06.890 very watery. 19:06.890 --> 19:08.890 When you reach out toward them, 19:08.890 --> 19:10.890 there is nothing there. 19:10.890 --> 19:12.890 What they chiefly have become 19:12.890 --> 19:14.890 is an intellectual force 19:14.890 --> 19:17.890 in human thinking about the future. 19:17.890 --> 19:18.890 But when you reach out 19:18.890 --> 19:20.890 to grasp the hardware, 19:20.890 --> 19:21.890 to read the message, 19:21.890 --> 19:22.890 to meet the alien, 19:22.890 --> 19:23.890 to meet the alien, 19:23.890 --> 19:25.890 there is nothing there. 19:25.890 --> 19:26.890 I've come to the conclusion, 19:26.890 --> 19:28.890 both from talking to contactees 19:28.890 --> 19:29.890 and having had 19:29.890 --> 19:31.890 a contactee experience, 19:31.890 --> 19:33.890 that whatever lies behind 19:33.890 --> 19:36.890 the UFO mystery, 19:36.890 --> 19:37.890 it is a force 19:37.890 --> 19:41.890 which can literally do anything. 19:41.890 --> 19:42.890 So it is fruitless 19:42.890 --> 19:44.890 to talk about the size 19:44.890 --> 19:45.890 of the objects 19:45.890 --> 19:47.890 or their composition or color 19:47.890 --> 19:49.890 or the size of the entities 19:49.890 --> 19:52.890 and their dress and weapons 19:52.890 --> 19:53.890 or their accoutrements, 19:53.890 --> 19:55.890 because it can appear, 19:55.890 --> 19:56.890 literally, 19:56.890 --> 19:58.890 any way it wants to. 19:58.890 --> 19:59.890 It can appear 19:59.890 --> 20:00.890 as the Virgin Mary. 20:00.890 --> 20:01.890 It can appear 20:01.890 --> 20:03.890 as galactarian overlords. 20:03.890 --> 20:04.890 It can appear 20:04.890 --> 20:06.890 as gnomes, elves, sprites, 20:06.890 --> 20:07.890 this sort of thing. 20:07.890 --> 20:10.890 It is not to be caught 20:10.890 --> 20:13.890 in the rational net. 20:13.890 --> 20:14.890 Your description 20:14.890 --> 20:16.890 is strikingly actually parallel 20:16.890 --> 20:18.890 with one exception 20:18.890 --> 20:19.890 to the view 20:19.890 --> 20:21.890 of many fundamentalist Christians 20:21.890 --> 20:22.890 who say, 20:22.890 --> 20:23.890 well, UFO stuff 20:23.890 --> 20:26.890 is all the work of the devil. 20:26.890 --> 20:27.890 Well, I don't know 20:27.890 --> 20:29.890 about the work of the devil. 20:29.890 --> 20:32.890 Jung's criticism of Christianity 20:32.890 --> 20:34.890 was that it had not made a place 20:34.890 --> 20:37.890 for what he called the shadow, 20:37.890 --> 20:39.890 and he said the productions 20:39.890 --> 20:41.890 of Christian culture 20:41.890 --> 20:43.890 will always be neurotic 20:43.890 --> 20:45.890 because the shadow 20:45.890 --> 20:47.890 has not been included, 20:47.890 --> 20:48.890 so there is a lack 20:48.890 --> 20:49.890 of psychic balance. 20:49.890 --> 20:51.890 Perhaps the UFO carries 20:51.890 --> 20:55.890 compensatory psychic energy 20:55.890 --> 20:57.890 from the realm of the shadow. 20:57.890 --> 20:59.890 Some people are very frightened of it. 20:59.890 --> 21:01.890 Some people see it 21:01.890 --> 21:03.890 as an almost millenarian 21:03.890 --> 21:05.890 salvational hope, 21:05.890 --> 21:07.890 the savior of mankind. 21:07.890 --> 21:09.890 I think that it is very powerful, 21:09.890 --> 21:11.890 that it haunts time like a ghost, 21:11.890 --> 21:14.890 that the messianic anticipations 21:14.890 --> 21:16.890 of fundamentalist Christianity 21:16.890 --> 21:18.890 and Islam 21:18.890 --> 21:19.890 are, in fact, 21:19.890 --> 21:21.890 a picking up 21:21.890 --> 21:23.890 on the shock wave 21:23.890 --> 21:24.890 that the image 21:24.890 --> 21:25.890 of the flying saucer 21:25.890 --> 21:28.890 casts backward through time, 21:28.890 --> 21:29.890 that this image 21:29.890 --> 21:31.890 of the new Jerusalem, 21:31.890 --> 21:32.890 the four-gated city 21:32.890 --> 21:34.890 descending from the sky 21:34.890 --> 21:36.890 to whisk the elect away 21:36.890 --> 21:38.890 to a better place 21:38.890 --> 21:41.890 is a kind of prophecy 21:41.890 --> 21:43.890 yearning toward a fact 21:43.890 --> 21:45.890 in the act of becoming. 21:45.890 --> 21:46.890 You know, 21:46.890 --> 21:48.890 Christianity and Islam 21:48.890 --> 21:50.890 are the most history-obsessed 21:50.890 --> 21:52.890 of all the world's major religions. 21:52.890 --> 21:53.890 Along with Judaism. 21:53.890 --> 21:54.890 Along with Judaism. 21:54.890 --> 21:56.890 And all three of them 21:56.890 --> 21:57.890 have this notion 21:57.890 --> 21:59.890 of the transcendental object 21:59.890 --> 22:01.890 at the end of time. 22:01.890 --> 22:03.890 And alchemy in the 16th century 22:03.890 --> 22:04.890 was an outbreak 22:04.890 --> 22:06.890 of an expectation 22:06.890 --> 22:08.890 of a transcendental object 22:08.890 --> 22:10.890 in the nearby here and now 22:10.890 --> 22:11.890 that would cure... 22:11.890 --> 22:12.890 The omega point of history, 22:12.890 --> 22:13.890 so to speak. 22:13.890 --> 22:15.890 Yes, that would cure all ills, 22:15.890 --> 22:17.890 confer longevity, fertility, 22:17.890 --> 22:19.890 virility, and mortality. 22:19.890 --> 22:21.890 And I think that the flying saucer 22:21.890 --> 22:24.890 is an airborne philosopher's stone, 22:24.890 --> 22:27.890 the sophic hydrolith of Paracelsus 22:27.890 --> 22:30.890 haunting the skies of modern America 22:30.890 --> 22:31.890 with a promise 22:31.890 --> 22:34.890 of mandalic cohesion 22:34.890 --> 22:35.890 for the future 22:35.890 --> 22:37.890 that science has not given us. 22:37.890 --> 22:38.890 Science has been 22:38.890 --> 22:41.890 a very sadly disappointing religion 22:41.890 --> 22:43.890 in the realm of the heart. 22:43.890 --> 22:44.890 The flying saucer 22:44.890 --> 22:46.890 comes from the heart, 22:46.890 --> 22:49.890 but it bears the very strange energy 22:49.890 --> 22:50.890 of the other 22:50.890 --> 22:52.890 in its manifestation 22:52.890 --> 22:54.890 as planetary goddess. 22:54.890 --> 22:55.890 I'm often struck 22:55.890 --> 22:57.890 by the psychic powers 22:57.890 --> 22:59.890 that seem to be associated 22:59.890 --> 23:01.890 with people who have had 23:01.890 --> 23:03.890 intensive encounters with UFOs. 23:03.890 --> 23:04.890 That's right. 23:04.890 --> 23:05.890 The thing is... 23:05.890 --> 23:06.890 I've researched 23:06.890 --> 23:07.890 many of these cases myself. 23:07.890 --> 23:09.890 It's both material 23:09.890 --> 23:11.890 and psychological. 23:11.890 --> 23:13.890 It anticipates the future. 23:13.890 --> 23:15.890 It seems as the memories 23:15.890 --> 23:16.890 of the contactees 23:16.890 --> 23:18.890 are transparent to this force. 23:18.890 --> 23:19.890 It seems as if 23:19.890 --> 23:21.890 it can reach deep into their lives 23:21.890 --> 23:23.890 and confront them with information 23:23.890 --> 23:25.890 taken from forgotten incidents 23:25.890 --> 23:26.890 in their lives. 23:26.890 --> 23:29.890 It is an awesome kind of force 23:29.890 --> 23:32.890 that transcends space and time 23:32.890 --> 23:34.890 for the individual. 23:34.890 --> 23:35.890 Now, it may be that 23:35.890 --> 23:36.890 we will never have 23:36.890 --> 23:38.890 a general theory 23:38.890 --> 23:40.890 of flying saucers. 23:40.890 --> 23:42.890 It may be that this is something 23:42.890 --> 23:44.890 that addresses the individual 23:44.890 --> 23:45.890 in the same way 23:45.890 --> 23:46.890 that I don't think 23:46.890 --> 23:47.890 we will ever have 23:47.890 --> 23:48.890 a general theory 23:48.890 --> 23:50.890 of falling in love. 23:50.890 --> 23:52.890 That, too, is something 23:52.890 --> 23:54.890 which addresses the individual. 23:54.890 --> 23:55.890 We have been mistaken 23:55.890 --> 23:57.890 to expect Time magazine 23:57.890 --> 23:59.890 or the New York Times 23:59.890 --> 24:02.890 to explain the flying saucers to us. 24:02.890 --> 24:03.890 They will not explain 24:03.890 --> 24:04.890 the flying saucers to us 24:04.890 --> 24:06.890 any more than they will explain 24:06.890 --> 24:09.890 ourselves to us. 24:09.890 --> 24:12.890 This is something that haunts 24:12.890 --> 24:14.890 the membrane of experience 24:14.890 --> 24:15.890 very close in 24:15.890 --> 24:17.890 to the experiencing ego. 24:17.890 --> 24:21.890 And therefore, it is threatening. 24:21.890 --> 24:23.890 This is one of the reasons 24:23.890 --> 24:25.890 that I think it relates 24:25.890 --> 24:27.890 to the psychedelic experience, 24:27.890 --> 24:29.890 because the psychedelic experience 24:29.890 --> 24:32.890 is like a UFO encounter 24:32.890 --> 24:34.890 on demand, 24:34.890 --> 24:36.890 where the will of the person 24:36.890 --> 24:38.890 having the experience enters in. 24:38.890 --> 24:40.890 They decide to have 24:40.890 --> 24:43.890 this curious, symmetry-breaking 24:43.890 --> 24:45.890 kind of experience. 24:45.890 --> 24:46.890 What I have tried 24:46.890 --> 24:49.890 to say to the UFO community 24:49.890 --> 24:51.890 is that we will not really have 24:51.890 --> 24:52.890 a deep understanding 24:52.890 --> 24:55.890 of what the contact experience is 24:55.890 --> 24:57.890 until we include data 24:57.890 --> 24:59.890 from the psychedelic experience 24:59.890 --> 25:02.890 as a legitimate data 25:02.890 --> 25:03.890 to be included 25:03.890 --> 25:05.890 when looking at the problem. 25:05.890 --> 25:06.890 Well, you have talked earlier 25:06.890 --> 25:07.890 about our need 25:07.890 --> 25:09.890 to make an extensive survey 25:09.890 --> 25:11.890 of all of the biological 25:11.890 --> 25:12.890 manifestations on our planet. 25:12.890 --> 25:14.890 It almost seems that 25:14.890 --> 25:16.890 in order to really get a handle 25:16.890 --> 25:17.890 on UFO phenomenon, 25:17.890 --> 25:18.890 we would need to make 25:18.890 --> 25:19.890 a comparable survey 25:19.890 --> 25:20.890 of all of the psychological 25:20.890 --> 25:22.890 manifestations of which 25:22.890 --> 25:23.890 we are aware. 25:23.890 --> 25:24.890 And it seems to me 25:24.890 --> 25:26.890 that at some level, 25:26.890 --> 25:27.890 you would agree with me 25:27.890 --> 25:29.890 that the UFO phenomenon 25:29.890 --> 25:31.890 is one of our psychological 25:31.890 --> 25:32.890 manifestations. 25:32.890 --> 25:33.890 Yes, I agree. 25:33.890 --> 25:34.890 We have got about 25:34.890 --> 25:35.890 two minutes left, 25:35.890 --> 25:36.890 so I wonder if we can 25:36.890 --> 25:37.890 sort of summarize your view 25:37.890 --> 25:38.890 in that regard. 25:38.890 --> 25:40.890 Yes, I think that 25:40.890 --> 25:42.890 the UFO phenomenon 25:42.890 --> 25:44.890 is a modern manifestation 25:44.890 --> 25:46.890 of a phenomenon 25:46.890 --> 25:47.890 which has been with us 25:47.890 --> 25:48.890 for thousands of years. 25:48.890 --> 25:49.890 That is, 25:49.890 --> 25:51.890 the partial penetration 25:51.890 --> 25:53.890 of our own cultural space 25:53.890 --> 25:55.890 by others, 25:55.890 --> 25:57.890 pixies, elves, fairies, 25:57.890 --> 25:59.890 sprites, demons, 25:59.890 --> 26:00.890 whatever you wish 26:00.890 --> 26:01.890 to call them. 26:01.890 --> 26:02.890 Angels. 26:02.890 --> 26:03.890 Angels. 26:03.890 --> 26:04.890 In the past, 26:04.890 --> 26:06.890 we had a professional class 26:06.890 --> 26:08.890 for dealing with these 26:08.890 --> 26:10.890 go-betweens. 26:10.890 --> 26:12.890 We called the professional class 26:12.890 --> 26:13.890 shamans, 26:13.890 --> 26:15.890 and they mitigate 26:15.890 --> 26:16.890 the effects 26:16.890 --> 26:17.890 of these go-betweens. 26:17.890 --> 26:18.890 We have created 26:18.890 --> 26:19.890 these comings and goings 26:19.890 --> 26:20.890 and had a lore 26:20.890 --> 26:21.890 and a mythology about them. 26:21.890 --> 26:23.890 As we have lost contact 26:23.890 --> 26:25.890 with our shamanic roots, 26:25.890 --> 26:27.890 the things which go on 26:27.890 --> 26:29.890 at a low frequency 26:29.890 --> 26:31.890 out in the wilderness 26:31.890 --> 26:33.890 and deserts of this planet 26:33.890 --> 26:35.890 have become to seem like us 26:35.890 --> 26:36.890 either like invasions 26:36.890 --> 26:38.890 from another world 26:38.890 --> 26:40.890 or virtual impossibilities. 26:40.890 --> 26:42.890 I think that the flying saucer 26:42.890 --> 26:44.890 is knocking on our door 26:44.890 --> 26:45.890 to remind us 26:45.890 --> 26:46.890 of the depth 26:46.890 --> 26:47.890 and strangeness 26:47.890 --> 26:49.890 and animate intelligence 26:49.890 --> 26:51.890 that is resident with us 26:51.890 --> 26:52.890 in nature 26:52.890 --> 26:54.890 on this planet. 26:54.890 --> 26:55.890 Terence McKenna, 26:55.890 --> 26:58.890 it's been a very eloquent presentation 26:58.890 --> 27:00.890 and extremely thought-provoking. 27:00.890 --> 27:01.890 Thank you very much 27:01.890 --> 27:02.890 for being with me. 27:02.890 --> 27:03.890 It's always a pleasure 27:03.890 --> 27:05.890 to talk with you. 27:05.890 --> 27:07.890 And thank you very much 27:07.890 --> 27:09.890 for being with us.