As far as what I can contribute to the ayahuasca discussion, most of the samples that Jonathan
discussed this afternoon were actually collected by Cass and myself in 76, and then Dennis wrote
that paper using those samples from some that he had obtained earlier that year. They all,
most all came from a single salmon, John Fidel Mosandite, who was then at the Arena Colcha near
Tupulco. We bioassayed all those brews, and they were very strong. When I began making
my own ayahuasca, I used those experiences as the benchmark for what I was trying to achieve
with my own brews. In terms of recipes, if you want to, you know, rather than trying to substitute
an analog, if you're still interested in what goes into a healthy dose of ayahuasca, the way
what I settled with, I had a clone of single individual plant called Plowman 6041 that Tim Plowman had collected
in Yuri Magwesk in 1970 that was called a Cielo ayahuasca. The ayahuascaros recognized types of ayahuasca more
differentiated than the species. They speak of Cielo ayahuasca, Trompetero ayahuasca, so forth and so on. So this is a Cielo ayahuasca, Plowman 6041. I grew it for many years, and when I started it, it was a
year, and when I made ayahuasca, I used 500 grams of fresh material per dose, and 85 grams of fresh Cicotria Viridus per dose, and then prepared it in the standard way, which is to boil the total volume of crushed ayahuasca and Cicotria Viridus.
You make it in a non-aluminum pot. You don't use aluminum utensils because the aluminum is reactive and will mess with the effectiveness of the ayahuasca. And you layer in to the pot, and the pots can be quite large.
You layer in to the pot, and you layer in to the pot, and you layer in Cicotria leaves, crushed sanicereopsis coffee, the entire plant vigorously smashed with a hardwood club to separate the fibrous material.
And then you boil it for four hours at a rolling boil, not an explosive boil, but a constant boil. Pour off the deeply yellow liquid that results.
Harmine is yellow. And you pour off the mother liquor into another container, replace the first wash with a second wash, boil it four hours more, then discard all the solid material.
Keep it steaming into the bushes. And then combine the two washes, which is a lot of water, I mean 10-15 gallons of water, and then drive it down to the number of doses that you have pre-calculated.
And I can make up to 12 to 15 doses at a time in pots of this size. And I drive it down to 100 milliliters per dose. In the final evaporation, you want to be careful not to boil it too rapidly, or the sugars, which are cooked out of the ayahuasca, will tend to caramelize and make it thick.
And this does not affect the pharmacology of the ayahuasca that makes it hell to swallow. And if you do it right, you can get it down to 100 milliliters and it will still pour. It's as thin as water. It won't thicken unless you have boiled it with too hot a flame.
Are you not destroying any psychoactive potentials, the more caramelized one or the more liquid one?
No, it's more like it's an aesthetic thing. It goes, you've hurried it. And if you're giving it to people who are knowledgeable, they will comment on this.
The sign of amateurish ayahuasca is ayahuasca that's sick. Does it needn't be? Those are just sugars. It's not doing any good.
My interest in ayahuasca, which I indulged over 75 years or so, began with, and if you haven't read it, you should probably read Burroughs and Ginsberg's book, The Yah-He Letters, The Search for the Blue Flash, is how I think it is.
And it sort of initiates the modern era of writing about ayahuasca. The most recent interesting book about ayahuasca, other than Eduardo's Commentaries on the Paintings of Pablo Amaringo, is probably Michael Kostig's book, Shamanism, Colonialism, and the Wild Man, which is just a wonderful book.
Even if you don't give a hoot about drugs, I think it's a wonderful book for the richness of the language and the way in which he tells the story of the 20th century history of shamanism in the Kutumayo region.
But my interest in ayahuasca was the same interest that many of the early ethnographers and anthropologists were motivated by, which was persistent rumors of group states of mind.
As Jonathan mentioned, the first people to characterize the alkaloid named it telepathine.
This was because they had the grandiose hope that this would be a telepathic drug.
And in a sense, I think it's too early to dismiss this possibility.
Most of us think of telepathy as one person hearing another person sing.
And that I don't think ayahuasca can deliver.
But what it can deliver is an incredible ability to see what other people mean.
Ayahuasca is driven by sound, by song, by whistling.
And its ability to transform sound, including vocal sound, into the visual spectrum indicates that some kind of information processing membrane or boundary is being overcome by the pharmacology of this stuff.
And things normally experienced as acoustical experience become instead visibly beheld.
And it's quite spectacular.
I mean, I've had ayahuasca where, you know, you can sing a tone and just lay down like a Barnett Newman painting,
a chartreuse line an inch and a half wide in the darkness, and then you switch the tone and cross it at a 90 degree angle.
And then as you begin to experiment, you discover that the whole modality behind your closed eyes is open to being driven by these sounds.
And I think probably a lot of the shamanism, especially the off the main rivers shamanism involving ayahuasca,
is this kind of pseudo-telepathic involvement with sound.
I mean, there are a lot of interesting things about ayahuasca, even in distinction or in contrast with other cycle-active plants, for example.
ayahuasca, it's essentially brain soup.
There's nothing in it which doesn't occur naturally in human neurometabolism.
When you take ayahuasca, you alter the ratios tremendously and the concentrations.
But, you know, mescaline, so far as we know, salvia desinorum, ibogaine, these things don't occur ordinarily in human metabolism.
Mescaline might under certain conditions.
But the major psychedelic neurotransmitters are what are represented in ayahuasca.
And it's the only hallucinogen I know where if it's made right, the next day, the day after the experience,
you actually feel better than if you hadn't done it.
I mean, even with mushrooms, which are dear to my heart, the day afterwards, I tend to keep the phone unplugged and just, you know, hot baths and this and that.
But on ayahuasca, you're just ready for action at 4 o'clock the next morning, next day.
And the hallucinations are extraordinary.
They seem to occur, in a way, it seems more versatile than psilocybin.
The hallucinations can range over a wider range.
I mean, they can be anything from nature-based, botanical, insectile to just, you know, you name it.
I remember one period of hallucination in ayahuasca where it was gold Egyptian hieroglyphics against black moving through these tunnels and this sort of thing.
And it's very, I think it's safe.
It's probably used by more people than any of its psychedelic plant cults in the world, if you don't consider cannabis the plant cult.
And as a strong hallucination, you know, in Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, down into Bolivia,
and then it's made inroads in the 20th century in a big way into Brazil, portions of Argentina,
and then more sophisticated populations all over the world are going to get inundated.
Are there any questions about that?
Yeah, but it would grow in the Canaan, if you don't know.
Oh, yeah, it'll grow.
It grows well in Hawaii.
It could, many, many plants are, have more restricted ranges than their natural capacity.
Plants, most plants have not occupied their full range.
This is a consequence of the glaciers only having melted 20,000 years ago.
I'll ask that, I mean, one of the things that interests me that I've talked to Brett Blasher about it,
is that I think that there may be banisteriopsis of some sort instigated in Mayan religion.
Nobody has ever been able to prove this,
that there is a whole elaborate kind of Mayan symbolism that you see at Talon,
I'm sorry, that you see at Talon and at other sites that's called umbilical symbolism.
And I think these things that have been taken for umbilical course are probably vines of some sort.
The last time I was at Tikal, in the ruins themselves,
there were many yellow flowers, Malfagasius flowers, on the ground
that had clearly been shed by large vines that you could see going up into the canopy.
And I collected in Belize non-flowering Malfagasius vines
that I was unable to distinguish from Ayahuasca.
So, you know, this may well be happening,
or could have been happening among the classes of Malfagasius.
But exactly what their drugs were and who used them is pretty expectantly.
There's no trace of that in that current Malfagasian population?
Well, there's, I mean, no trace of vines.
No, they're pretty, I think, the morning glory seeds,
the mushrooms among the Sierra Mazatec and the Indians,
the Zapotecs and the Mixtecs,
among the Maya,
I think the morning glory complex,
and the Salvia Divinoa.
And, but whatever else may have gone on,
you know, there's a whole,
I mean, Jonathan is the expert on this,
but there's a whole number of plants which may have been
used for their psychoactive effect in Mexico.
Various coleuses,
the Emias salicifolia,
some people believe certain water lilies,
whole plants like
which is now used as a flavoring
for certain kinds of chocolate drinks.
Still, there are depictions on pieces of statuaries
that seem to suggest that maybe this would have
a nice concrete style of usage in the past.
I have a question about,
you're talking about how the visual experience
was driven by sound.
Right.
Have you found that the visions could be driven by anything else?
Any other occurrences besides sound?
Touch or...
Well, I tend to lie down and sit still in silent darkness.
I suppose cannabis helps most of these things.
But really, the ayahuasca is extraordinary.
The last time I took it
was in a non-traditional setting,
but with one other person,
and sitting in completely silent darkness.
And this guy had these Tibetan chimes,
you know, the kind you strike with a piece of deer horn?
And it would be completely silent.
And he would strike this thing,
and it would literally form a piece of jewelry
or a thing like a machine in the air.
Just this thing!
And the thing would come into being
as long as the sound is there.
And then it would disappear.
And then he would make another one.
And it was very clear
that we were seeing the same thing
because I commented on it
and described what I was seeing.
And it looked like a little thing
made out of iridescent titanium
with brass connectors.
And it was like an enormous laurel birch earring
and something like that.
It's a very specific kind of object.
I think these things are very mysterious.
I mean, it was a pity that
that Rocio's English
didn't allow a real discussion
of these stories
about the people who disappear
for days and weeks on end
who go into a parallel world.
Because, you know,
if you just think
these aboriginal people
are ignorant savages,
well, then you can just dismiss it.
But if you've just gotten this far
on the premise
that shamans know
what they're talking about,
well, then you have to take very seriously
this more outlandish stuff.
You know, I mean,
where do you draw the line, you know?
And Ayahuasca is,
you know, Eduardo Luna,
who some of you know,
is very keen to insist
that what Ayahuasca
is really about
is where you get on it
if you keep these diets
for weeks and months
and then take it repeatedly
over and over
in these situations
of sensory deprivation.
And I think these people
are basically erasing
ordinary linguistic structures
and they live in a world
half, perhaps more than half,
hallucination.
And their fears of magical attack
and their relationships
to invisible beings
and all this
is a kind of,
I suppose,
in Western terms,
the only thing you could say
is it's a kind of self-generated,
self-controlled,
schizophrenia.
But that's just the word,
schizophrenia.
I mean, what it is
is it's a self-generated,
self-controlled immersion
in a non-causal,
parallel construct
of some sort.
And the reason shamans
live in isolation
and on the periphery
of modern
and high-density
urban civilization
is essentially
so that they can
build these capsules
within the air
that they inhabit.
They build
unique mythological structures
that are like accretions
of their very powerful personalities.
That's what all this
storytelling is about.
These stories are
the contextual,
define the contextual limits
of what is possible.
And if you live
in a culture
where night after night,
year after year,
you've grown up
around the fire
hearing the most respected
people in the group
tell these outlandish stories,
then for you
it legitimizes
the search for a doorway
out of mundane experience.
And that's really
the only precondition
for finding
such a doorway.
I mean,
if you love the weird
and you probe it
often enough,
deeply enough,
eventually
you'll hit the jackpot
and the door
will swing open.
And I watched it
definitely
very effective
for doing that.
Yeah.
I guess the Icaros
really generate
a lot of visions,
the song sung,
and some of those
are available on cassette.
Do you think
that kind of
visionary generation
would come through
in a cassette
if you give
an ayahuasca analog
and type one of these things?
Yeah,
I mean,
if you listen
to the music
on ayahuasca,
it transforms
the music.
You have to be
very careful.
I recall
many years ago
it was the night
of a total eclipse
or some hellish
thing in the sky,
a total eclipse
at some time,
and Sunwater
and Adele,
who some of you
may know,
and I decided
that we would do
the ayahuasca
that I'd had
in the back
of the refrigerator
for years.
And this was
like a long time ago,
maybe eight years ago,
and I got it out
and I couldn't remember
whether Don Fidel
had said,
always shake
the bottle
or never
shake the bottle
before you fall.
So,
to be safe
we should shake
the bottle
in case
that's what
he did say.
So I did,
and,
you know,
I've never had
it hit me
so hard,
and we were,
I had put on
a record
which I had
previously found
mildly entertaining,
and the goal
of the first
40 minutes
of this ayahuasca
trip became
to survive
the playing
of this record.
I mean,
it was so,
I don't know,
I've had other
experiences.
A friend of mine
brought me a tape
from tribal
Afghanistan
that I listened
to one night
in Hawaii
and I became
so alarmed
and freaked out,
and I just,
I could hear
something in this
music that just
shouldn't have
been there.
I could hear
that,
you know,
this wasn't
wizened ragheads
in mud hut
somewhere,
that these guys
had connections
into the
Martian
musicians'
union
of the
era.
It's highly
agitating,
but the
ayahuasca songs
are probably
tailored to
create a certain
aura of
confidence,
and they're
reassuring.
It's nice to
sit with these
old guys
and watch
them make
beautiful music,
and when
you're alone,
you can sing
too.
I mean,
it's very
important to
sing,
especially if
you become
afraid or
alarmed.
This is the
key.
If you get
into deep
water with
these substances,
this is true
of psilocybin
as well.
You don't
want to
clench.
You don't
want to
assume the
fetal position
and stop
breathing,
and you
want to
sit up
straight and
breathe and
sing,
and sing
it back,
and it
will step
back.
It will,
you know,
you can take
control of
your situation.
most of
the time.
I wanted
to ask
about the
parallel
universe.
American Indian
storytelling and
mythology has
a great deal
to say about
these things,
and there's
adventure myths
about the
two young
guys that
go out
and hit
the seat
and disappear
for 12
years.
You know,
this is a
common
and enduring
theme,
but it's
my speaking
position
that this
must have
done
a little
bit
about
when
you
get
into
that
place,
what
level of
barriers
do you find
yourself
giving it?
Well,
I'm very,
very careful.
I mean,
like,
the way I do
these things
normally
is alone,
and I
unplug the
telephone,
and I
don't tell
anybody I'm
going to do
it,
and I
do it in
darkness,
and I
roll joints
in front of me
so I
don't even
have to
move,
and basically
once it
gets going,
I don't
do
anything,
because I'm
so aware
of how
involved
me is.
I mean,
I don't,
I think you
have to be
almost a
damn fool
to just
grab hold
of this
stuff and
start flailing
it around.
I mean,
for me,
it's like I
creep up
to the
abyss
and hang
my head
and look
and then
I edge
back to
them.
The idea
of trying
to actually
do something
is terrifying
because it
will work.
I mean,
you can do
it,
but you
don't
understand
what you're
doing.
So I
like to
look
as Peter
Scheller
is doing.
But the
children
are going
in a
mission.
They're
doing purposeful
work for
what's
meaning.
They
cure.
They cure
and they
get
but the
main
thing,
I mean,
I think
the getting
information
thing is
sort of
overstressed
because it's
astonishing and
it proves that
it's a higher
dimension.
I mean,
if somebody
really can
see who
stole the
chicken and
they really
can see,
then even
though it's a
trivial matter
about a
chicken,
there's nothing
trivial about
the fact that
they are
exhibiting a
paranormal
ability which
seems to
involve the
contradiction of
cause and
effect.
How can
they see
who stole
the chicken?
Number one,
the chicken
has already
been stolen
by the time
the question
is asked of
the shaman.
Well,
so then does
the shaman
travel back
in time?
Does the
shaman read
the minds
of everyone
in the
tribe and
look and
find who
stole the
chicken that
way?
Or is
it just
an inspired
gift backed
up by
social
pressure?
what exactly
is going
on here?
And then
when you
turn toward
the future,
it becomes
even more
mysterious because
many of
these shamanic
things are
about deciding
where the
hunting will
take place.
And say,
you know,
if we go to
the second
waterfall,
then there
will be
kapibari to
be killed.
And then
they go and
there is and
they do.
Well,
if you
believe that
this person
actually saw
the future,
then you're
coming perilously
close to
some kind
of determinism,
which is,
you know,
not supportable
philosophically.
I mean,
if the universe
is absolutely
determined,
then thinking
has no
meaning.
Because if
the universe
is determined,
then you
think what
you think
because you
couldn't think
anything else.
So thinking
suddenly is
divorced from
the enterprise
of knowing
reality.
And that's
a little
discouraging
to those
who butter
our bread
in the
fields of
philosophy.
So I
think it's
very mysterious.
The model
that I use
for all of
these psychedelics
is a
mathematical
model,
not a
psychological
model or
a spiritual
model,
but a
mathematical
model.
Minds,
under the
pressure of
evolution,
under the
pressure of
the need
to defend
self and
offspring,
has folded
itself down
into the
three-dimensional
space-time
matrix of
the body.
Mind has
sort of
crippled
itself in
order to
caretake the
body and
the here and
now.
Well,
when you
take these
psychedelics,
it's like
it's severed.
The mind
is severed
from the
physical
envelope,
and you
wander in
a much
larger
dimension,
and it
is literally
a higher
dimensional
manifold,
and that's
how these
apparently
miraculous and
magical things,
that's why the
shaman can see
into a human
body,
because in a
higher dimension,
the inside and
the outside
are the same
place.
there is no
distinction.
So, it's an
inner sensorium
that has a
higher dimensional
character to
it.
It's a great
mystery, you
know, and it
doesn't need to
detain us here,
but it's a
great mystery,
the relationship
of consciousness
to number,
and of nature
to number.
After all,
nature is
nature, the
deployed
three-dimensional
physical world
in its
dynamic.
Numbers are
abstractions
generated, so
far as we
know, only by
the human
mind.
They are
inventions of
the human
mind, and
yet nothing
is as
descriptive of
nature, no
tool is as
powerful as
a descriptor of
nature as
mathematical.
Why is
this?
Well,
ayahuasca seems
to say it's
because the
mathematical, the
higher mathematical
dimensions of
the world are
objects not
merely for
abstract, deductive
discovery, but
for experiential
encounters.
And then, if this
is true, then our
world, as we
experience it in the
here and now and
day to day, is
hopelessly limited and
circumscribed, a very
limited world that
we're operating in,
inside our culture,
inside our language,
inside our body, and
so forth and so on.
And in the silence, in
the darkness, swept
away by these alien
alcohols and the
plant mines behind
them, you find out a
truth that can barely
be told.
And most of it can't
be told.
The sense of self
in the Iowa system?
Yeah, and the
ego in general.
Well, I think that
these things are very
humbling.
It's very hard to do
if you have an ego
that's very...
If you're, for
instance, I mean, if
you're the kind of
person that other
people consider a
jackass, it's pretty
hard to do these
things if other
people's judgment on
you is correct.
You know, I mean,
the person who can
dominate a noisy bar
is not probably a
good candidate for
ayahuasca.
That kind of bravado
and machismo and,
you know, I mean,
ayahuasca loves to
take prideful people
and rub their nose in
it.
I mean, it can make
you beg for mercy
like nothing.
You know, you have
to really approach
it humbly.
I mean, I speak
from experience
that, you know, I
probably am easily
betrayed into
assuming I know
what I'm doing.
And that's the
moment when
catastrophe strikes.
What I always say
to it when I go
into it is I say,
you know, I'm
going to take a
big dose, so
please don't kill
me.
Here I am, I'm
yours, I surrender,
I hold nothing
back, I didn't
cut the dose, I
didn't water, I
didn't water the
tea, so please
don't kill me.
And then it usually
responds by not
killing you, if it
so amuses you.
You know, you can't
demand it.
The real bad
drift comes when you
try to put the
squeeze on it.
You know, when you
try to force a piece
of information.
And, uh, actually,
see, that's the
difference also in
the cultural context
of Ayahuasca, in
many areas where
there's been a lot
of social disruption
in the community,
the roads, or
hundreds of years
of missionary
influence, um, and
what is still
remaining in the
Ayahuasca culture
is that the people
always think it was
some kind of intense
meter to heal
someone, or to,
like, send a
star to kill
someone, or something.
They don't just take
it just to completely
just threaten themselves
and just flake.
I mean, they do,
too, like, during
their initiation and
stuff, but I mean,
once they, like,
the shamanes, I guess,
or even a lot of
the young people,
really, they'll just
take it with something
in mind, you know.
Of course, there's
exceptions, so the
difference is that
is that a lot of
times, um, like,
we hear a lot of
weird stories about,
like, um, I don't
know, like, young
upstart shamans
that, like, have
just, like, a
like, you don't
talk about, I mean,
there's a lot of
weird black magic
that goes on, too,
because a lot of
people just don't
know how many
people can heal,
and so, a lot of
death, though,
it should be good
to, you know,
I was thinking
either to black
magic, or...
And I think a lot
of shamans are,
they like to just
graze the underbelly
of the thing.
They're really
concerned about
their community
and healing
sick people
and holding it
all together.
It's an exceptional
personality in any
society, Amazonian
or urban American,
who is the go
for the gusto
kind of person
who just wants
to get as loaded
as they possibly
can.
I mean, this
shaman that I
studied with in
Peru, the
ayahuasca that
they would
take on Saturday
nights at
touring would
be only about
two-thirds of
strong, and
then every
Wednesday night
we would take
it, just he
and a couple
of other people
and he said
this was our
school, he
said, this is
when we learn.
On Saturday
nights we
cure the people,
but on Wednesday
nights, you
know, we
plunge to the
death.
And it was a
much more
intense, quiet,
inward kind of
driving in those
situations.
So, if we
took our
watch on a
Wednesday, it
would be
having a
simultaneous
experience.
Quite so.
Every day, the
week, the
party is
loaded.
how would
you compare
the nature
of reality
or perceived
reality under
ayahuasca and
under mushrooms?
Well, the
thing about
psilocybin that
is so
extraordinary, and
I think enough
people have
experienced this
now that we
can make a
generalization about
it, the
mushrooms talk,
they speak to
you in your
native tongue,
and that
conversational
speed, and
it's, you
know, the
damnedest thing
until it
happens to
you, you
can't imagine
what somebody
could be
talking about.
Once it
happens to
you, you
know exactly
what they
mean.
The
mushroom is
animate and
articulate and
also kind of
extraterrestrial.
Its
hallucinations
tend to the
grandiose, the
history ending,
the galactarian
destiny that
awaits the
biological
overmind.
It's this
ta-da, ta-da,
kind of thing.
Ayahuasca is
biological and
organic, and
you feel the
spirit of the
forest, like
Rocia said.
It's more
feminine, and
after a good
ayahuasca trip,
you feel like
your eyes are
just bugging out
of your head
because you've
spent so much
time looking
looking.
The language of
ayahuasca is
visual.
It shows you,
and shows you,
and once this
showing gets
going, you know,
it's hard to
shut it off.
I mean, it
really wants to
show, but it's
silently, it
spills out this
cornucopia of
images, and you
sing, and you
manipulate it,
where the mushroom
mushroom is, you
know, highly
articulate.
It also is
visual, but it
also can talk,
which is just
such an astonishing
thing for a
western.
I mean, we are
just not prepared
for talking
agile.
Have you tried
the two together?
The two together?
I wouldn't do
that, actually,
because I think
the monoamine,
oxidase, inhibiting
properties of the
carmine, would
so intensify and
synergize the
psilocybin, that
you might find
yourself swinging
from the
chandelier.
And the
shamans don't
do that, the
shamans don't
do that, either.
In the Amazon,
you can rarely get
an ayahuasca to
give you the
time of day
regarding mushrooms.
They always
say, well, we
use mushrooms and
we don't have
ayahuasca, but
the caveat is, and
we always have
an ayahuasca.
For women who,
have you seen
in a jungle, women
taking ayahuasca, or
is there three
closest by him?
It depends on the
tribal, it depends
on the people, but
around Hukalpa, there
were women in the
circles.
There was this
woman, this
angula, who
just, you know,
she drank with
the best of them
and would recount
outrageous
visions, and this
lady must have
weighed under
a hundred pounds.
One of the
shamanesses, or
shaman, female
shamans that we
tried to contact
in 76, is this
famous woman who
studied with
Manuel Cardova
Rios, the guy who
wrote Wizard of the
Upper England, her
name was Juana
Gonzales Ovi, who
told us about her.
She had come to
him as a girl of
25, with leprosy, and
he had taken her into
the woods for six
months and cured her
of leprosy, which
that you can cure
leprosy with ayahuasca,
is definitely an
unorthodox idea.
And she became a major
ayahuasca era in this
area, and her stuff
was said to be the
best, but she had
lost her hands and
her feet, so the
experience of taking
ayahuasca with her
was fraught with her
presence, which was
fire-like.
The new field of
medicine, the feeling
of sound, and with
the person's voice
is analyzed, the
spectrum analyzer, and
the missing notes are
provided to that
person, either by
singing or humming,
or to get the
person to just match
the note that he's
missing, apparently
will feel all kinds
of ailments.
And I'm wondering if
you can see sounds
that the curator of
the arrow just can
see by the sound
that person's voice
is making what's
totally missing in
his picture.
Well, there's
obvious that there's
some kind of
diagnostic sensitivity
to invisible stuff
that we don't
ordinarily perceive.
We were talking
last week, some of
you may have seen
this, I mention it
because I'm trying
to confirm it.
I've seen on three
occasions in my
life, at about
this light level,
sitting, watching
someone in profile
as you're watching
me, on a very
slight dose of
mushrooms, there's
something that goes
on in front of
the person's mouth.
It looks like
oil in water.
water.
And my rational
explanation for what
this is, is that
you pull air into
your lungs and it
is heated, and
therefore it has a
slightly different
refractive index
than the cold air
in front of your
face.
And so when you
speak, the mixing
of the hot and
cold air can be
perceived under
some conditions, and
I would get
photographed under
some conditions,
as a kind of
oily, turbulent
something in front
of your mouth.
Well, is that
cheerful explanation
correct, or are we
on the brink of
something else, some
demanding or
exhaustive phenomenon?
Going back just a
little bit, I should
probably mention, a
friend and I have
been growing
ayahuasca clones, I
guess it's from your
clone actually, for
three years, and in
the lack of the
stachypia or DMT
additives, my
friend has reported
numerous successes
with shrooms.
Adding the
shrooms to the
ayahuasca?
Yes.
What proportion
do you know?
Not sure.
It would be
interesting to know,
I think you might
need to get away
with that, probably
what it would be
is a fair bit of
ayahuasca and a
tiny bit of
mushroom.
One of the
longest, hardest
evenings I ever
spent was, I
got the idea I
would take half a
dose of ayahuasca
and half a dose
of mushrooms, and
I felt like I
was battling
demons to return
with a shred of
my sanity.
I mean, it was
just ghastly,
phobic of that
combo.
You took them
at different
times?
No, I took
them together,
two and a half
grams of
mushrooms and
a half a dose
of ayahuasca, and
it turned me
every way but
loose.
And it was
unpleasant.
I mean, I
really thought I
had done it this
time.
What it did was
it interfered.
It was very
clear what the
past was very
cool.
What seemed to
be happening was
that it was
interrupting RNA
transcription of
short-term memory.
So I knew who
I was and my
history and how
I had gotten
into this
situation, but I
couldn't remember
the last three
minutes.
And this would
create this
anxiety in me.
And then I
would forget why
I was anxious.
And then that
would create more
anxiety.
And I was
into some
kind of
intellectual
regress that
was, and I
was just riveted
in this chair,
and I thought,
you know, if
this doesn't
unsnap itself,
they'll just put
me in a ward
somewhere, you
know, I'll just
be carried out
here.
And it felt
like, you
know, that
scene in 2001
when the guy
is outside
making the
repair, and
then he
comes back
and says,
open the
pod door,
Hal.
I can't do
that, Dave.
Well, it
was, I
could almost
see the
jammed
enzymatic
machinery in
the mass.
I mean, I
had this very
clear vision of,
oh God, it's
gone down the
wrong pathway,
the degradative
enzyme has
somehow been
locked out of
the process,
and here we
are, folks,
circling the
airfield,
running out
fuel, zero
visibility down
below, and
after about
two or three
hours of this,
so, it
evases.
Well, you
should show
your fun,
you know,
it doesn't
preclude
continuing this,
it will just
jack it to a
higher level.
Cool.
Sure.