Good evening.
I'm Nancy Nangerone, and this is Gender Talk.
Hello again.
This is Gender Talk, Boston's worldwide radio show that talks about transgenderism in the first person.
Each week, we bring you news, information, and exciting new voices that challenge our traditional view of gender.
Tonight, we'll meet a different flavor of activist or representative of the United American Indians of New England.
We'll hear about a protest turned violent last Thanksgiving in Plymouth, and why this group of original Americans refers to that national holiday as a day of shame.
Then we'll meet the well-known author of several books on the subject of natural hallucinogens and altered states of consciousness, Terrence McKenna.
We'll ask about benefits, drawbacks, and safety issues in exploring altered states.
Plus, we'll check in with celebrity friend Candy Cain, who will fill us in on the summer scene in Provincetown.
And because this is a surprisingly decent show, we'll also have the twisted nasty news, happenings around town, and much more tonight on Gender Talk.
And the views and opinions presented on this program do not necessarily reflect those of the staff and management of WNBR, the Technology Broadcasting Corporation, RMIT.
Wow.
Hal, thank you so much for that.
Remind me not to do that one again.
You know, I think we should thank the show before us.
I think we should have the guys on radio with a view.
I think they should do Gender Talk.
I mean, they've got much better clips than we can.
Really.
Thanks, guys.
Mark and David.
Mark and David are those guys.
Yes.
All right.
That was a nice little intro.
Anyway, this is Gender Talk.
Our website is www.gendertalk.com.
I think it's surprisingly decent, considering how little effort we put into it.
The left-est radio show on the dial.
Hey!
It is that.
Yeah, we do put a little bit of effort into it.
And we have fun, and we hope you have fun with it, too.
You can email us.
Mr. Clean gets rid of dirt and grind.
Sorry.
Nancy at GenderTalk.com or Hal at GenderTalk.com or anybody else at GenderTalk.com.
Our side host is TG Forum, Transgender Forum.
Thanks, guys.
We appreciate you putting us out there on the web for everybody to hear.
Hey, you know what happened?
What happened?
I just got yesterday in the mail from Jamie Faye Fenton, the person who puts our show up
on the website.
Right.
Jamie made me a CD, CD-ROM, with all of our shows on it.
One CD-ROM.
One CD?
You're kidding.
With over a year's worth.
It's almost a year and a half.
I don't know how many shows it was.
So are we going to start selling this?
The whole thing or just the good part?
It was like 72 shows or something.
Are we going to sell this?
Is it going to be something we press?
Well, that's the idea, is that maybe IFGE can sell this.
So maybe IFGE will make this available to people.
We'll see.
More gender talk than you could possibly want, folks.
That's right.
More than you ever wanted.
Enough to totally cure you of the listening habit.
You mean people can do sampling on us now?
Well, it's in real audio format, so it's not quite as good as real audio.
Did we get mail this week?
Oh, yeah.
That's what we have.
I knew there was something I needed to do here.
Where?
All right.
First piece of mail.
This one's good.
I'm going to read this verbatim.
Dear Nancy, I was on Gender Talk about a year ago discussing my treatment at the hands
of some very inept therapists in Oklahoma.
I can't tell you how important that was in my efforts to legitimize my feelings to myself.
I think she's referring to being on the radio show.
I had a few phone calls in the months following the show from people who were very supportive
of my efforts.
With that and a few more months of therapy, with Roger Millen, of course, I began my real
life training in September, my real life test, excuse me, in November of last year.
That means real life test is like when you cross live, right?
Right.
So now the person is living full time.
Right.
I'm writing to let you know that I begin my first full time job in the field that I'm
trained in as the person that I choose to be.
That's pretty cool.
A small step for some, perhaps, but for me, the continuance of a momentous journey that
I've been so lucky to have participated in.
Needless to say, I have so much hope and joy to share with my experience that I can't contain
myself.
I just wanted to thank you guys for your part.
Love, Susan Gerringer.
Oh.
Isn't that sweet?
Thank you, Susan.
Yeah.
We're glad to hear that you got a job.
Yeah.
Exactly.
A job in her chosen, in her field, in her regular field.
Yeah.
She didn't have to like go flip burgers at McDonald's or something.
Now, is she out at this job or we don't know?
I don't know.
It's one way or the other, but, you know, who cares?
Okay.
Anyway, congratulations, Susan.
Right.
We also got a letter from, an email from someone here in Cambridge.
Apparently, there's a Cambridge transgender person, a male to female transgender person
who transitioned on the job with the consent of her supervisor.
A month after her transition, the supervisor resigned to move to another company.
Two days later, she was told she would be fired if she did not go back to wearing men's
clothing at work.
She complained to the, she filed a complaint with the Cambridge Human Rights Commission.
Now, we have laws against that in Cambridge, don't we?
Exactly.
Cambridge has a non-discrimination ordinance that says you can't be discriminated against
on the basis of gender expression or identity.
So, she cannot be, I mean, in law, it says that you can't be forced to wear men's or women's
clothes.
You get to choose which you wear.
Anyway, apparently, it says, finally, two months after transitioning, the employee is
still on the job.
The Human Rights Commission has set a hearing date and the company continues to hold fast
to the threat of firing the employee.
Is this the first test case that's been brought?
I believe so.
This is the first I've heard.
So, we'll be looking forward to getting more information on this.
We'll try to get an interview going.
Is this a private company or is this the city of Cambridge?
I have no idea.
No, I don't think it's the city.
The city of Cambridge has better sense than that.
Yeah, the city is much more reasonable.
To break their own laws, yes.
All right, so one more mail.
And finally, we got one letter, a very, a much longer letter, very nicely written.
And this is all about the interview that we did last week with the Executive Director
of Norm on the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws.
Slow down?
Yeah.
AJ says slow down.
Okay.
I just want to cover a lot of ground real quick.
We were supportive of him.
Yeah, in fact, it says here, you seem to be in total agreement with this guest on all
his stated points.
Actually, I thought he was, he maybe exaggerated a little bit.
Right.
Like, he didn't say anything negative at all.
And of course, there's always negatives to anything.
So, perhaps we could have been a little bit more balanced.
This person says, I do agree that our government's policies on medical usage of marijuana are ill-advised.
So, in other words, he's saying that the extreme prohibitions are not a good idea.
And this person also says, I also do believe that drug education is essential, but in my
experience, marijuana can be an insidiously dangerous drug.
So, to hear she, it's a, she, I think, she goes on to say, while I know that this is not the
case for everyone that uses marijuana, it has proven true for me and many in my acquaintance.
I used drugs, if you count alcohol, for a total of 15 years.
For 13 of these years, I used marijuana.
During many of those years, it was my drug of choice, and I used it daily.
I had many enjoyable experiences using marijuana, especially at first.
However, I paid a huge price in the long run.
I experienced many of the difficulties that your guest dismissed as non-existent, including
paranoia and loss of motivation.
I also experienced a level of emotional dependence on marijuana that was no different than that
experienced when using other classes of addictive drugs.
She goes on to say, using marijuana itself did not cause me to use other drugs, but being
in the company of other drug users, being high on pot, and having my judgment affected
by such a situation, definitely encouraged me to use other drugs.
I think this is a great letter, because I think there are dangers in everything.
I think she's putting them out there very well.
Yeah.
She's done a really nice job.
I wish we had time to read the whole thing, because it really is a very, very nice letter.
Let's see.
Are there a couple more?
I believe that marijuana greatly retarded my emotional and social development.
It helped me to withdraw from the world.
She goes on to talk about trans people.
No, is this a trans person who's writing this?
This is a trans person.
For me, it seemed easier and felt safer to stay stoned than to deal with my feelings about
myself.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who has felt this way.
She talks later about getting clean.
Prior to my getting clean, I lived in a lonely, isolated, drug-clouded half-life, where a significant
portion of my energy went into obtaining and using drugs.
If you'd told me back then that I had a problem with drugs, I would have denied it totally.
That's really interesting, because this really speaks to the issue of how do you use drugs?
I know that when I smoke, it's for a specific purpose, and that if I find myself...
What purpose is it?
Well, the first purpose that really came to me was when I was recovering from my motorcycle
accident.
You had a very serious motorcycle accident.
My leg was mangled, and it seemed only when I got high that I would relax enough and take
the time enough and pay enough attention to my leg to give it the kind of care it really
needed.
So it worked for me to get high and then to work on my leg with a massage and exercise
and those sorts of things.
So that really worked for me.
That was about 20 years ago?
Yeah.
1981.
So 17 years, something like that.
And then there are certain types of activities, physical activities, physical exercise.
Sometimes I like to get high before going rollerblading.
It loosens me up.
It relaxes me a little bit.
I find that I fall less.
I mean, I just compared it for a while, for a period of some months.
When I went out, I alternated between smoking and not smoking to see, and I found that I
fell...
Maybe just because you're more relaxed or something.
Yeah, more relaxed, less concerned with other things, more kind of present in some ways.
But at the same time, sometimes I find myself wanting to turn to marijuana because I'm feeling
bad.
I want to escape.
I don't want to deal with things at all.
And those are warning signs.
Those are reasons not to smoke.
Those are reasons not to do drugs.
So then when you feel that way, what do you do?
I find something else to do.
Take a nap, drink a glass of water, go for a walk, do something else, but don't smoke.
Not a good time to smoke.
If you start to depend on it as an escape, then it becomes a downward spiral.
Mm-hmm.
Which is what this person is talking about.
And she goes on to talk about the community.
While there are other issues dividing the community, it appeared, she's talking about
in the past, that drug abuse and addiction were causing problems for many of us, and this
is true.
There's a lot of...
Within the trans community?
Yeah.
There's a lot of recovering alcoholics, and there's a lot of people who have abused drugs.
She says, abusive drugs steals our energy, saps our spirit, and weakens our voice.
And this is signed, Bobby.
Bobby, I couldn't agree more.
This is an excellent letter.
It points out the other side of things, some of the dangers of dealing with drugs, which
are dangerous.
I mean, anything that you eat can be dangerous, just like getting in a car and driving is a dangerous
thing.
It kills a lot more people than marijuana ever has.
Likewise, marijuana is something that should be used with respect and should be used with a
bit of care.
In a well-informed manner.
And in a well-informed way.
So anyway, Bobby, thank you so much for this excellent letter.
We really appreciate you pointing out some of the cautions that people should take whenever
doing this stuff.
We can talk about this with our guest tonight.
Yeah.
And we'll be...
Yeah, when we talk about hallucinogens later tonight.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm looking forward to that.
Anyway, isn't that a great letter?
That was...
Yeah.
Anyway, okay.
Hal.
So, Hal, are you ready to do the Twisted Nasty thing?
Yeah.
I think he's always ready.
Good evening, this is Hal Fuller with the July the 15th edition of the Gender Talk Twisted
Nasty News.
Okay.
From Buenos Aires.
I did that already.
City authorities in Buenos Aires have decided to crack down on prostitution despite protests
by a crowd of transvestites in high heels and lipsticks.
Was that all they were wearing?
Quote...
That's what the article said.
We're simply fighting to be free like any man, woman, or creature, said Flavia, 23-year-old
transvestite prostitute.
A surge of prostitutes has embarrassed shock presidential contender Fernando de la Rua,
mayor of Buenos Aires.
Resident groups have lobbied to keep transvestite prostitutes off their doorsteps where they,
fight, shout, relieve themselves, take drugs, and perform sexual acts in full view of the
neighborhood.
Hell, in my neighborhood, those are spectator sports.
Well, good thing that they're organized and that they're protesting.
Yeah, this is interesting.
They repealed the police edicts, and now what's happening is the trans prostitution is flourishing,
apparently.
Uh-huh.
Things have gotten more visible.
And now they're trying to reinforce it again.
Yeah.
Selectively, it sounds.
Yeah, from the thrust of that article, that's sort of what I got.
That was from Reuters, I believe.
Time Magazine, the July the 20th edition on the newsstands as we speak, has a two-page wonderful
spread on transgenderism.
It starts out, watch out, Pat Robertson.
Ridiculed for years, transgender are emerging as the newest group to demand equality, quote
unquote.
In the past five years, several movies, plays, tabloid shows, and famous cross-dressers like
RuPaul have moved drag from the fringes of gay culture to prime time, even Teletubbies.
A show for toddlers features Tinky Winky, a boy who carries a red patent leather purse.
It also features a nice picture and some stuff about Shannon Ware, who is a male to female,
transsexual, approached legislators who dropped anti-T legislation that they were contemplating.
And Shannon Mentor, who is...
I think it's the same person, isn't it?
No, two different people.
Is that really?
Oh, okay.
There's a Shannon Ware and there's a Shannon Mentor.
I thought Shannon Mentor...
Okay.
Never mind.
...who is at the National Center for Lesbian Rights.
He's a lawyer.
Right.
Okay.
Well, it's very balanced, very knowledgeable, and very hip.
They knew what they were talking about.
Yeah, and Ricky Ann Wilchens was involved in that.
Surprise.
My guess is that Ricky and the two Shannons probably worked with Time Magazine on that.
Well, thank you, Time.
Good work, guys.
Good work, Ricky.
Again, it is on the newsstand now.
That's gender packet work there, too.
Right.
Of course, for the people out on the web, it probably won't be on the news times by the time
you hear it, but you can go to your library and look it up.
Anyway.
Thank you.
Let's do a really twisted, nasty one.
For instance, in Europe, condoms are getting larger.
The European Union's standardization committee has reportedly decided to increase the length
of its standard quote-unquote condom from 16 centimeters, approximately 6.3 inches, to 17 centimeters, 6.7 inches.
They're also increasing the diameter of the condoms from 54 millimeters to 56 millimeters.
Whether this represents a surprise rise among European men is still unclear, it said.
Isn't that pretty long?
They're only increasing it a little, actually, .4 inches in length.
6 inches sounds long in my experience.
Does it really?
Yeah, it does.
Not in mine.
Wow.
We should compare notes sometime when we're not on the radio station.
Let's feel that Viagra.
Yeah, there you go.
Oh, maybe that's right.
Maybe all the lesbians I was sleeping with.
There you go.
I'm not going to touch them.
Okay, on a serious note.
Last week, trans activist Joanna McNamara took her own life.
She was an attorney who co-founded It's Time Oregon and was instrumental in gaining protection
for transsexuals in Oregon disability laws.
She's recently suffered from depression and the after effects of earlier physical injuries.
Quote, I have run out of hope.
I am tired of hurting physically and emotionally.
I have fought and struggled to the best of my ability.
I can struggle no more.
Reports have shown that queer youth, gay and lesbian youth, and no specific statistics on transgender,
but that queer youth in general are three times more likely to suicide.
How many friends in the transgender community do you know that have tried or succeeded at suicide?
Maybe yourself.
This is obviously a health issue.
It's obviously a rights issue.
It has to be paid attention to.
And our condolences to the friends and family.
Yes.
Okay.
Here's some good news.
Our friend, Sexuality Doyin and grand opening owner, Kim Ayers, has a new position.
Wait a minute.
She already had 54.
She needed a new position.
I know.
She has been named apparently to the Brookline Chamber of Commerce.
Wow.
I love it.
That's pretty heavy.
That's great.
Congratulations, Kim.
And for those people out on the net, Kim Ayers runs a shop called Grand Opening, which
is an adult toy store.
She also runs many very sex-positive workshops and identity workshops.
She is one heavy, knowledgeable babe.
And she's trans-positive.
Oh, yes.
They have packing penises in their store.
Oh, yeah.
Well, they do.
Great stuff.
And on that note, the Improper Bostonian run its 100 best.
And for S&M supplies, the first one they list is Home Depot.
Thank you, Karen, for bringing that to my attention.
Ah!
For S&M supplies.
Well, you know, the bolts and the stuff you need for the rafters and all of that stuff.
Oh, I guess so.
And after that, they listed Hubba Hubba, which is a local-
And Cambridge.
And Cambridge shop.
So right after you go to Home Depot, folks, swing by Hubba Hubba, please.
Or don't.
In a Canada case where a young male child lost his penis due to a circumcision accident, he
was reassigned as a female, raised as a woman, and apparently accepted it more unlike the famous
John-John case.
And there was a case recently which was brought to attention where-
The John-John case where the person, there was a similar incident.
And the person was raised as a girl, and at age 12 rebelled and insisted on going back
to living as a boy.
Right.
And very upset.
Well, in this particular case, the young female apparently is accepting more that she
is a female, and they're trying to make the distinction that the one who accepted their
reassignment was done at seven months, and the one who didn't accept their reassignment
was done at 21 months, so apparently there is a window where gender hasn't set in heart.
All right.
Let me, I got to make a few comments on this one.
I figured you would.
This gets my goat.
First of all, first of all, how do you know this wasn't a trans person to start with?
This could have been a transgender person anyway.
You cannot draw any, any conclusion whatsoever from one case like this.
It's absolutely bonkers, and any person who calls himself a scientist will tell you
that a sample of one or a sample population of two with one going each way.
It's not sufficient data points, honey.
No.
Yeah, not even close.
So, whichever guy, whoever it was, some guy out there who said, you know, well, since
this one was seven months, the other was 21, means that gender identity takes hold in between
those two is a complete loony.
I'm sorry.
I'm usually more...
He didn't go to MIT like we did.
Well, yeah, just totally bogus.
Totally bogus.
God, I love it when she's on her soapbox.
I know.
Sorry.
Well, we don't even know what it means that this child allegedly accepts that she's a girl.
This child accepts the gender.
But how old is she, and what does that mean?
I don't have that information, I'm sorry.
Tell you what, if you know, drop us an email and let us know.
Well, there is one thing that this particular female who has accepted her lot does, in fact,
work blue-collar, quote-unquote, man's job.
She was very much a tomboy when she was growing up, and at last count, she was declaring herself
as bi and involved in a lesbian relationship.
Right.
So, tending towards a little bit of masculinity stuff going on there, no surprise.
But the question I have to ask is, why is it we feel a need to make pronouncements
about gender and when gender identity takes hold?
So, you know, I would investigate the motives of the people who feel a need to do so.
Once you get a doctorate, you are qualified, thereby, to make pronouncements.
Yeah.
Okay, here's a moment you've all been waiting for, the final story from New York City.
Wealthy, thrill-seeking couples from around the world are eagerly lining up to join what
they call, jokingly call, the Thousand Mile High Club by renting queues to make love in outer space.
And a New York company is selling bursts aboard the privately owned Love Rocket One for a
whopping $200,000 a piece.
And there's already a huge waiting list for the proposed first launch of December the
31st, 2003.
Right.
This is a very good scam.
We should get in on this.
You may be right about that, AJ.
Hmm.
So, save your pennies, folks.
That's one expensive roll in the hay.
Mm-hmm.
Well, there's also a woman who has developed a harness for free-fall lovemaking.
Free-fall lovemaking?
Free-fall lovemaking.
Like bungee jumping?
They're a problem with docking maneuvers, apparently.
You just wrap your legs around each other's legs, and you're there.
All right.
The hardware's coming in place, dear.
That's all I can say, and that's it for this edition of the Gender Talk Twisted Nasty
News.
Use only as directed.
Thank you.
Wow.
Thank goodness for that.
Don't we have a guest?
The guest is probably hung up by now.
I think our poor guest has been holding up by now.
Yeah.
If I were the guest, I would hang up.
I would.
Mattelie, are you there?
Can you hear us?
I am.
I'm still thinking about these people in New York paying good money to make love in outer
space.
I don't blame you.
That's, you know, $200,000.
Imagine what we could do with that money, huh?
If we just got five people, we'd have a million dollars.
There you go.
So welcome to Gender Talk.
Thank you, Nancy.
It's a pleasure to have you on.
Now, you are a member of the, in fact, you're one of the two people who's running.
Tell me.
Right.
What do you do?
I'm Joey, and I'm co-leader of United American Indians of New England.
Oh, okay.
And what, tell me, what is United American Indians of New England?
Sure.
Our organization has been in existence since 1970, and we have a number of different fronts
to defend the rights of Native people.
For instance, we're responsible since 1970 for the National Day of Mourning commemoration
in Plymouth, Massachusetts.
National Day of Mourning?
Yep.
Now that is Thanksgiving?
That's Thanksgiving.
I want to tell you, by the way, we do work on a lot of other things.
We work on the case of Native political prisoners, including Leonard Paltier.
We work to demand an end to racist teen names and mascots.
We work on a lot of other fronts, too.
But I think what we're best known for is National Day of Mourning.
That occurs on American Thanksgiving Day.
And it's a time when we as Native people and our supporters go to Plymouth, Massachusetts,
and we're on a hill there overlooking the sacred Plymouth Rock, which for those of you who've never been there is really, I don't know,
I think most people think it's this huge thing like the Rock of Gibraltar, and it's this little tiny thing.
And, in fact, the pilgrims didn't land there anyway.
It was about six feet long, I think.
It was in the center of town that they dragged down to the waterfront.
Right.
But it's symbolic.
And have a speak-out.
And what we talk about is why we as Native Americans have no reason to give thanks for the European invasion of our country,
why we have no reason to give thanks for the genocide of our people and the deaths of our lands.
You're not thankful for the massacre of your ancestors and your forebears?
Of course we're not.
It should be self-evident.
I can't understand that one.
But it's outrageous.
They have this whole pilgrim mythology that the pilgrims came over and they were such wonderful people,
and the Indians welcomed them and fed them, and everybody lived happily ever after.
And it couldn't be further from the truth about what really happened historically,
and in particular what has happened to Indigenous people.
So we go there to speak the truth.
We also have several times we've buried Plymouth Rock.
Ah!
You buried the rock?
...of the racism, you know, that it represents.
I love it.
What do you mean you buried the rock?
Well, you kind of take buckets of...
It's in this pit, and you kind of jump down into the pit.
I love it.
And we brought buckets of sand and dumped buckets of sand and covered it up.
How many years have you been doing this?
I mean, how many years?
1970.
Wow.
You know, let me tell people, because this is a gender talk, and I want to tell people
a little bit why we have you on here.
Good.
You're inspired by...
I mean, this interview is inspired by Leslie Feinberg, who spoke at Boston's Pride this
last Saturday, and talked about the Plymouth 25, which is 25 people who I guess were charged
at the...
Unbeaten, right?
I don't know, but I'm going to ask Matoa to tell us all about this, but 25 people who
have been charged, who were apparently assaulted by the police, and who have been charged by
the police based on last year's National Day of Shame in Plymouth, I believe.
And because Leslie and myself and other transgender activists are advocating for coalitional work
among all oppressed peoples, we here at Gender Talk feel that it's important to bring other
issues to light, especially issues that are so egregious as the continuing persecution of
the people who lived here before the Europeans came.
As if we could separate race and gender anyway.
Yeah, exactly.
So, Matoa, can you tell us about what happened in Plymouth?
I'd be happy to.
Great.
Let me say this also.
We don't separate the issues out, and in fact, you probably saw us marching at Boston
Pride.
All right.
We were there in June at the Rained Out Pride, and we're part of the Stonewall March, and
we were marching with United American Indians of New England banners at Pride that just
happened this past Saturday, the Rain Day.
And I think sometimes there's a tendency in the society to make it seem as though native
issues are separate, for instance, from lesbian, gay, bi, and trans issues or that type of thing.
And that's not true either.
I mean, certainly there are lesbian, gay, bi, and trans people, what we call two-spirited
people who are native.
Absolutely.
And, you know, we support the sisters and brothers within our own country community who
are two-spirited people.
And we support all the people from the two-spirited community.
That's why we march in Pride.
Four of the descendants from the Plymouth 25 are openly lesbian, gay, bi, or trans people.
Cool.
And I think that's important to know.
So we have...
The Plymouth 25...
Yeah, tell us about what happened, because we have an audience out here.
A lot of trans people and a bunch of other folks are listening.
A lot of queer-identified women.
Tell us what happened.
Last National Day of Mourning on November 27, 1997, so-called Thanksgiving Day, we went
to Plymouth as we've been going, as I said, since 1970.
And every year it's led by native people, by our organization, United American Indians
of New England, but many, many other non-native people come to show their support for it.
And we had a speak-out, and in the speak-out we talked about some of the history and also
issues of current concern to native people.
And then we attempted to have a peaceful march on the streets of Plymouth, Massachusetts,
which calls itself America's hometown.
And this march, at the front of the march, we had elders, and we had women, and we had
children, and we did that actually intentionally, because we thought, well, you couldn't...
How can we make it more clear that we don't want any kind of confrontation?
Right.
And we began to march, and it was very quiet, and someone was playing, had a conch shell,
and there was a drum beating, and that was all that you heard.
And we turned the corner, and we were ambushed by dozens upon dozens upon dozens of cops.
Wow.
The Plymouth, the town of Plymouth, their entire police force, beefed up, and the Plymouth County Sheriff's Department,
and the Massachusetts State Police, including state cops on horseback, had combined to come up with this whole ambush.
And people, we weren't given warning to get off the street.
We weren't...
We're on this tiny little side street in Plymouth, right?
Uh-huh.
And just got trapped there.
We weren't allowed to get off the street.
Nobody was allowed to do anything.
We sent people ahead to, you know, try to talk to the cops and say, listen, you know, try to negotiate with them.
The cops said, the order's been given, and they move forward.
And they began to arrest not only the leadership of our organization, but many, many other people.
And they also were very brutal to people.
They knocked people down on the pavement head first.
They would slam people down on the pavement and then put pepper spray in their eyes.
Oh.
And pepper spray is a...
Miserable.
...very vicious substance.
These cops pepper sprayed an eight-year-old child and a ten-year-old child.
These cops pepper sprayed elders.
They were just, they were like...
Couldn't have been more disrespectful.
Our feeling was they were like, you know, Custer and the Cavalry.
They were like, you know, they thought, oh, boy, they were going to be big cowboys today.
Yeah, because little 8-year-old kids are really threatening.
The worst of white culture.
Oh, it was terrible.
And, you know, people literally were just trying to evaporate and get out of the way and couldn't.
And they arrested 25 of us.
And those who were arrested, the newspapers locally always say the 25 Native Americans arrested at Plymouth.
Well, it wasn't 25 Native Americans.
It was 25 people who included Native Americans and African Americans.
And the Native people, by the way, are from both North and South America.
And African Americans and white people and Latino people and Asian people and old and young.
They arrested a 67-year-old man who is the spiritual advisor to our organization, a medicine person.
Wow.
It was...
Were you arrested?
Oh, yeah.
Wow.
And what's so absurd about it, first of all, the only criminals that were on the streets of Plymouth that day were the cops.
We certainly weren't doing anything criminal.
What did they charge you with?
Well, they've continued to prosecute this case.
I mean, it's a ridiculous case, and the charges should have been dropped a long time ago.
But they're actually playing really hard ball with us.
So charges range from unlawful assembly kind of charges to assault and battery on a police officer.
And that assault and battery is very serious.
I mean, people can potentially do time for that.
Oh, yeah.
William Palmer did two years.
You know, so instead of dropping these charges and getting realistic about it, they have engaged in a vindictive campaign against not only the 25 defendants,
but against our organization really trying to discredit us.
Wow.
You know, it's been a very bad situation.
On the other hand, we've gotten an incredible broad base of support.
We're getting letters of support from organizations and individuals all over the country and, in fact, all over the world.
Good.
Sounds like you deserve it.
Many people are aware of this, and those who aren't, when they become aware of it, they're immediately outraged and want to do something to help.
Okay.
We have to take a break now.
I'll be right back, okay?
For those of you who are wondering what this is, you're listening to Gender Talk on WMBR in Cambridge, 808.1 FM, first on your dial.
I'm your host, Nancy Nangeroni, here with A.J. Dirksen.
And we're talking with Mata Wee, who is the co-head of the United American Indians of New England.
We're talking about the Plymouth 25, 25 people who were arrested unjustly in Plymouth last year's Day of Shame,
which also celebrated as Thanksgiving by a lot of Americans.
Oh, Day of...
Morning.
No, Day of Shame.
Didn't she say Day of Morning?
Day of Morning.
Oh, you did say Day of Morning.
Yeah.
I got it wrong.
A.J., you were right.
Go ahead.
Thumb your nose at me.
Day of Shame must be a different thing, then.
What's that?
Day of Shame must be a different thing.
That's Columbus Day.
Where did I get...
Yeah, there you go.
Anyway, okay, so...
So now...
So, yeah, so what's with these...
Okay, what can people do to help?
And then let's talk about other things that your organization is doing.
Great.
Well, people can contact us.
Right now we're asking people to send letters of support and to send letters to the Plymouth County District Attorney,
Michael Sullivan, demanding that the charges be dropped.
But if it's okay, I'll give your listeners our phone number and they can contact us.
Absolutely.
Okay.
You can give anything you want.
Our phone number is area code 781-331-3690.
And we can also be reached via email.
Our email address is UAINE19 at IDT.net.
I'm doing my best to enunciate that.
You did fine with that.
So that's UAINE19, that is, at IDT.net.
That's right.
Or 781-331-3690.
We'll keep that number here.
If anybody calls us later at 253-8810, we'll have that information for you.
Okay.
So people can contact you, and what you really want is for people to write letters
so they can call you and get the address to write to, to write to Michael Sullivan,
the Plymouth District Attorney, is that what you said?
That's right.
It's the Plymouth County District Attorney.
We'll be happy to get folks that information.
We are going to be, all the Plymouth defendants will be back in Wareham District Court
on the morning of July 28th at 9 o'clock.
And every time we've come to court, we've asked that supporters come there.
In fact, when we were in court in June, I think there was about 100 supporters there,
and it was really incredible.
We just packed the courtroom.
That's great.
Anyone who's able to come down to Wareham District Court on the 28th, that would be great, too.
And that's a very effective thing to do, to let them know that the public is watching
and that we're interested.
What else is the United American Indians of New England doing,
or what's happening maybe on a national basis?
If you can just fill us in, because we're very sympathetic, especially in the trans community.
There's a lot of interest in our two-spirit heritage in a Native tradition.
And so we want to know what's going on.
So fill us in as much as you can in the next five or ten minutes.
Well, I guess the two things that I'd like to tell you about.
We do have tomorrow, on the 16th, we're going to be having a picket outside Fenway Park here in Boston.
No, why are you picketing Fenway?
Well, it's not because the Red Sox keep losing, although that might not be bad either.
It's because the Cleveland Indians baseball team is in town,
and when they come to town, we like to let them know that we're here.
We have very good friends in Cleveland, a Native organization called the Committee of 500 Years of Dignity and Resistance,
who have been protesting in Cleveland for years against the racist team name, the Indians,
and against the disgusting, hook-nosed, vile mascot that is everywhere in Cleveland
and that is used everywhere by that baseball team, which is called Chief Wahoo.
And, in fact, the sisters and brothers in Cleveland have been arrested more than once
simply for having a demonstration outside Jacob's Field there.
We go to Fenway Park to try to raise people's consciousness.
We're outside the park and we hand out leaflets,
but we try to raise people's consciousness about the issue of these racist mascots and team names.
Some people have never even thought about this.
Some people, it's never even occurred to them that we would find it offensive for a team to be called,
for instance, the Redskins.
You know what, it never occurred, I have to admit, it never occurred to me before I called you guys and heard what was going on.
I have to admit it, yeah.
It just never occurred to me.
It makes sense, though, especially Redskins.
Are people generally receptive to you when you're leaving?
I mean, could you have a team called the Blackskins?
Exactly.
Well, that's the whole point.
They don't take other racial groupings and name teams and mascots after them.
They don't.
Yeah, you wouldn't have the slanty eyes.
For instance, have some guy dress up as a pope dancing around on a football field handing out communion.
Right.
You know, they don't do that to other people's spirituality or other people's cultures, but it's somehow acceptable to do it to Native people.
And what's really frustrating is at schools and universities and, you know, with these big league sports teams,
Native people have been saying over and over again, please stop using this name.
And we're told, well, it's not offensive.
You know, you shouldn't be offended.
We're not going to stop using this.
We're not offended.
How can they determine whether it's offensive to us or not?
Only we can say whether that's offensive.
Right.
So I wanted to know about how you're received when you hand out leaflets.
Well, some people are responsive.
There's a number of Cleveland baseball fans that turn out for these games, too.
They tend to be really hostile.
Some of the, you know, I like baseball a lot myself, but some of the fans can be pretty redneck-y.
They've had a lot of beers and things like that.
So some of them are not very responsive.
We've been spat at.
We've been told to go back to our casinos.
We've had leaflets shoved back on our face, that kind of thing.
But other people take them and read them.
Hey, speaking of casinos, what's going on with the whole –
I can't hear you.
Speaking of casinos, is that better – what's going on with the sovereignty issues?
Is that being tested or is that acknowledged?
I know that that was –
What issues are those?
Sovereignty.
Yeah.
It's sort of – sovereignty is being exploited in order to bring in income via casinos,
and that's being done widespread on a national basis now.
Are there other issues of sovereignty that are coming forward?
Is there other ways that sovereignty is being challenged or –
Well, our sovereignty is not respected, actually.
All Native nations should have a right to have their own economy, however they determine that should be,
and to make their own laws and enforce those laws, and to educate their children in their own manner,
and to have social service programs that are culturally appropriate, and really to function in separate countries.
That's what sovereignty means.
It's the right of each Native nation to be able to do that because we were here first, and it is our land.
We are separate nations with our own land base.
The U.S. government has never respected that, though, and interferes in every possible way.
So really at the bottom of many, many of the Native struggles is our efforts to defend sovereignty
and efforts to regain land.
I have a question about the casinos.
Casinos, are they bringing money into Native American Indian hands, and is that money doing good things,
or is it a corrupting influence?
Well, our organization doesn't take a position on casinos except as follows,
which is that we believe it's the right of every Native nation to choose how it wants to conduct its own economy.
We will say this, however, which is it's a fact that there's this myth afloat now that Native people are all getting rich with casinos.
And, in fact, not even five Native nations have made significant earnings from casinos.
In general, most Native nations remain incredibly poor.
And when you look at reservations around the country, whether you're talking about Pine Ridge or Standing Rock
or in Navajo country, really all over the country, Native people are the poorest people in this country.
And are the casinos helping in that?
Is that changing as a result of the casinos?
Well, as I said, the casinos really aren't.
The casinos have had an impact on only a very few Native nations.
Most Native nations don't have casinos and even some of the ones that do.
I noticed a bunch when I was in New Mexico last month.
There were a bunch of casinos on various pueblos.
Yeah.
No, I'd just like to think, you know, it would be nice if the casinos were actually, you know,
returning some wealth into the hands of Native Americans.
Anyway, okay.
I was wondering if Matone wanted to give out their contact number again.
Yes.
Okay.
You want to do that again?
Our telephone number is 781-331-3690.
All right.
Because we just had a caller from somebody who was of, like, Swedish, Danish, that descent
and said, I'm a Viking.
You know, it's like they're doing the same thing.
Really?
Yes.
Oh, interesting.
Huh.
Matone, we're out of time.
We have to go now.
Is there anything that you wanted to say that you haven't had a chance to say yet?
Nope, this is fine.
But we really appreciate the opportunity to be on your program and to speak to the trans community.
Well, we'll be paying attention to what happens with the Plymouth 25.
I'll hope to see you.
And I'll hope to have an opportunity to come down to Plymouth and see you.
I'm starting to think about spending my next Thanksgiving Day down there.
So we'll see what happens.
Well, please come.
This Thanksgiving Day, we invite everyone to come stand with us in Plymouth.
Believe me, we're going to be there for the biggest day of mourning ever.
Yeah, I think this would be a good year for a bunch of people to turn out.
Yeah.
So thank you so much, Matone.
Okay, thanks.
There's a little tribute before we say goodbye to Matoi.
Okay.
Now that you're wondering how can it be real that the ones who've called colorful and proud
in your school propaganda, they starve in their splendor.
You've asked for my comment.
I simply will render my country, tis of thy people.
It was Buffy St. Marie, a very well-known song about American Indian plight.
Thanks, Hal.
All right.
Do we have a special message?
You know what?
Let's save the special message for after the announcements so that Karen can work on getting
our next guest on the phone while we do that.
All right.
That sounds good.
Yeah.
All right.
Are we ready to do the announcements?
We're ready.
All right.
Take it away.
So there's grand opening of the Athena Club, which is Boston's newest monthly party for women.
That'll be this Friday, July 17th, from 9 p.m. until 2 a.m.
Where's that?
At, I'm going to tell you.
Come on, hurry.
I can't wait.
At the Times on Broad Street.
Where's that?
For information, call 617-357-8463 for details.
Turntables, stylings, and giveaways all night, 21 plus.
And this is presumably a queer positive or queer thing?
Well, the newest monthly party for women, yeah.
Presumably it would be.
This is in Boston, Broad Street in Boston?
Right.
All right.
The Times.
Friday night.
Cape Cod Gay Pride.
Parade and Festival is this Saturday from 11 a.m. to 4.30 p.m.
That's on the Village Green in Hyannis.
For more information on that, call 508-743-9957.
Did you know that I went through Pride twice this year?
I did.
You knew that, didn't you?
How prideful of you.
Oh, that's shocking.
It was great.
You didn't know that, Hal.
How exciting.
I went through in the car once and then went back and walked through it.
She walked with the people.
We supported that.
And still couldn't score.
The annual brother-to-brother cookout, gay men and lesbians of color, family members and friends.
Sorry, there was a comment in there somewhere.
Sunday, July 19th, noon to 6.30 p.m. at Franklin Park in Boston.
If you would like to volunteer or for more information, call Andre Jones at 617-442-1622, extension 22-8.
The Fenway Community Health Center is sponsoring For the Love of Women, a celebration for and about women who love women, featuring poets, musicians, artists, and actors.
This is going to be on Friday, July 17th from 6.30 p.m. to 8.30 p.m. at the Fenway Community Health Center.
For more information, call Chantanette at 617-927-6300.
So you can go to the Fenway and then you can go to the new club over on Broad Street.
And you can protest the Cleveland Indians while you're over there.
Yay, and Artbeat, an art festival in Davis Square, Somerville, with lots of live music, dance, and children's activities will be Saturday, July 18th from 11 a.m. to 7 p.m. in Davis Square in Somerville.
Now this you have to pay attention for, okay?
For information, I have a URL here.
It's www.SomervilleArtsCouncil, all one word, .org.
Cool, and Fenway Community Health Center is not near Fenway Park.
It's in Boston.
Well.
It's close.
No, it is close.
It's this side of the Mississippi.
It's a bit of a walk.
It's not that far.
All right.
If you are a bisexual who is looking for some help to come out or want to help someone else come out.
How about if I'm a bisexual who's looking for a date?
Yeah, well, maybe.
All right.
There's a coming out as a bisexual support group meeting on Tuesday in Boston, July 21st from 7 to 9 p.m.
That's at 29 Stanhope Street.
For more information, call 617-424-9595.
That's the Boston Living Center.
Isn't Mark just getting better and better at this announcement thing?
He's going to have his, like, sultry voice deal down pretty soon.
Wow.
Is that it?
So, yeah.
That's it.
That's it?
Concise.
Okay.
Yeah, and if you missed any part of these, call us and we'll give you the information.
Call us.
So go, hey, ass.
Right.
Exactly.
No, no, no.
You can dial.
That's 253-8810, folks.
You can remember that because it's, like, 88.1.
And that's area code 617-253-8810.
That's right.
All right.
And now we have something very special.
For those of you that think that gospel music has gone too far, you think we've gotten too radical with our message.
Well, I got news for you.
You ain't heard nothing yet.
And if you don't know, now you know.
For 25 years, the Good News Gospel Program has been providing the Boston area with the best in inspirational music.
We play contemporary gospel.
But we also feature classic and traditional gospel.
On Sunday, July 26, we'll be celebrating the 25th anniversary of Good News by broadcasting 12 hours of gospel music.
Tune in to WNBR Cambridge 88.1 FM from noon to midnight on July 26 and help us spread the good news.
Come on and help me.
Help me.
25 years.
So now I think the good news is that you just need one rule to live by, which is don't hurt others.
Well, if you think, and that rule is in, it works with, it works with this gospel rule, doesn't it?
It does.
I think it does, probably.
Anyway, cool.
Big deal on Sunday.
So now, have we got somebody on the phone?
The ever elusive.
Terrence, are you there?
Terrence McKenna.
Not hearing anything.
Terrence.
Terrence is probably sitting there going, I'm here, I'm here.
The phone just went out, says Karen.
I heard that all the way back here.
The phone is funky.
We apologize to everybody, including Terrence.
We'll get Terrence back.
He's having a bad weather thing there.
Another one?
Yes, so when I just got him on the phone, he said, let's do it, but we're having a rainstorm,
so I could go out at any time.
All right.
Just keep trying, please.
Okay.
Yep.
All right.
So we're trying to get Terrence McKenna on the phone, folks.
Terrence McKenna being an expert on psychedelic drugs.
Is that what it is?
Can you tell us all about it, AJ?
Altered states of consciousness?
Wait a minute.
Mark has something.
He's raising his hand.
Yeah.
Well, someone just called with a question about Matui and the rally that's happening tomorrow
down at Fenway Park.
Right.
What about it?
But exactly when and where is that happening?
Oh, we didn't get that information.
Well, around daytime.
The number to call is 781-331-3690.
Give that a call right now, 781-331-3690.
And then tell us.
And Matui should be able to give you a call.
Yeah, then you can call us.
But presumably it's around game time and probably by the entrance, right?
Yeah, I don't know if it's a day game or a night game.
This person was trying to find out what intersection near the park, if it was going to be a small
thing.
Well, the park's not that big.
You can probably walk all the way around it and find them.
I don't know.
Anyway.
I think I heard a click.
Did I hear a click?
Is Terrence there?
Terrence McKenna.
I heard a click.
Hello.
Terrence!
Welcome to Gender...
How are you?
Great.
How are you doing?
You don't know how excited we are to have you.
Well, you don't know how exciting it is to be had by you considering that this circuit
is dependent on the rain and could at any moment fail.
Which is the reason why we weren't able to raise you last week because you're on a radio
telephone.
Is that it?
It's more complicated than that.
I'm running through my computer which works by spread spectrum radio to go 30 miles through
the air and the telephone is piggybacking on the internet connection.
Do you live in Mars?
Where are you calling us from or where are we calling you?
I'm speaking to you from the slopes of the world's largest volcano on the big island of
Hawaii.
Really?
Wow.
Now, that must be a beautiful, beautiful area.
That must be...
Oh, it's beautiful.
It's a little gloomy and rainy today.
But, yes, we're in deep forest with lots of tree ferns and it's wonderful.
Is that a risky place?
If you could speak up a little bit.
Okay.
How can you give...
How's...
Yeah, we're struggling a little bit with the phone link, Terrence.
We'll do our best, okay?
Okay.
Well, if it gets too flaky, don't feel bad about throwing me out.
I understand the problems you may be having.
All right.
Well, while we have you, let's talk about your work.
Now, you've written a number of books.
I'm not familiar with your books.
Could you tell us, you know, what you've been doing from the standpoint of altered states
of consciousness and whatever hallucinogens?
I've written several books, Food of the Gods, Invisible Landscape, True Hallucinations,
and the theme of all these books has been consciousness-altering plants used by Aboriginal
people and the evolution of the human consciousness under the influence of these kinds of plants.
So, basically, I'm a scholar and an advocate of the psychedelic experience as mediated by
various plants that occur in ecosystems all over the world.
You bring up an interesting point, which is that these kinds of experiences have been used
in the past by other cultures, but are currently outlawed by the particular culture we live in.
Yes, well, the particular culture we live in has made alcohol and tobacco two of the most
destructive drugs ever discovered by man into their drugs of choice and then has proceeded
to demonize, legislate against, and stigmatize all the other botanical options and, since the
rise of modern science, pharmacological options that science has provided.
So, yes, our culture is particularly neurotic around this issue of drugs.
Okay, let's talk about and do whatever education we can.
We've got about 20 minutes now to talk about hallucinogens, naturally occurring hallucinogens.
I presume we're talking about, like, psilocybin mushrooms and I don't know what else, maybe peyote or whatever else.
Can you give us...
Yes, psilocybin mushrooms, peyote, these are excellent classic examples.
Okay, I want to talk about the benefits and the drawbacks and the cautions in using these drugs.
I want to do whatever good education we can do here.
So, let's talk about why would anybody want to take, say, let's talk about mushrooms, since that's one that I'm familiar with.
Why would anybody want to take hallucinogenic mushrooms?
Well, in the original aboriginal cultures that characterized humans a long time ago, it's well understood that
psilocybin increases at low doses, visual acuity, so it makes for better hunting skills, so you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that that is going to be a very important thing for a culture.
At higher doses, these things which in primates like ourselves often mean sexual arousal, and then at still higher doses than that,
you get very complex states of hallucinations, very transformations of mental processes, that I think probably were the earliest form of media entertainment.
People found their minds to be an unexplored domain of nature that opened up to them under the influence of, for example, mushroom.
What do you mean that my mind would open up to me, or that a person's mind would open up under the influence of mushrooms?
Can you tell us a little bit more, give us more of a sense of what that's all about?
Some example of that, maybe?
Well, ordinary consciousness is pretty much characterized by mundane concerns and an ongoing analysis of the immediate perceived environment.
Most people's experience with altered states of consciousness begins with dreams, and indeed, psychedelic states have been compared to waking dreams.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Cool.
So, where were we going with that?
So, it's kind of like waking dreams then.
Yeah.
Why?
A waking dream is what?
That was the comparison?
No, I don't know what a waking dream is.
Oh.
Do you understand what the question is?
Well, a waking dream is when you think you're dreaming, but you're awake.
In other words, in normal physiological functioning, dreaming happens when we're in deep sleep.
But the psychedelics seem to recreate the chemistry of the dreaming brain without pushing aside the chemistry of the waking brain.
And so there is a simultaneous experience of being in the world of ordinary perception, but that shares the mental space, a kind of dream-like transformation of objects, ideas, and feelings.
So, in other words, in this state, you would experience yourself as being awake, being in the world, but at the same time, you would actually experience, say, objects or things that you see doing things that in reality they aren't doing, or that other people would say they aren't doing?
Well, that's one possibility.
A more dramatic possibility is that you would experience objects or feelings or perceptions for which ordinary experience offers no analogies.
And in a sense, that causes stimulation to the imagination.
You could almost argue that one of the things pushing the early evolution of language was people's efforts to explain to each other the completely non-ordinary experiences and perceptions that they were having in these plant-induced mental states.
And isn't that what Alice's Adventures in Wonderland are about, to some extent?
Well, it's perhaps not without implication that just a few hundred yards from where Lewis Carroll wrote Alice in Wonderland, we find several species of psilocybin mushrooms growing near Trinity College in England.
I love it.
Now, in the limited experimentation that I've done with psilocybin and other hallucinogens, I notice a significant difference in my sense of time.
I notice that time seems to operate differently, that I become much more focused or present in the moment.
Is that something that's a consistent effect?
That's common.
Yeah.
Is that common?
And is there any way you can describe that better, maybe?
One of the very common motifs of the psychedelic experience, you see, what we call time is really the physiological time of the body, the unfolding of digestion, mentation, and metabolism.
And these things are altered, or the perception of them is altered under the influence of psychedelics.
And even the critics of psychedelics have agreed that these things do offer parallels to the classic states of mystical transcendence and enlightenment that many world religions talk about.
It's simply that the critics of psychedelics choose to claim that these experiences are somehow illegitimate if obtained by taking a plant, but are...
...
or somehow sanctioned if achieved through prayer, fasting, flagellation, and self-abandonment in the wilderness.
I think when we transcend all these cultural judgments,
what we have to admit is that the chemistry of the brain is the basis of consciousness.
It can be altered by ordeal, trial shifts,
but the easiest and most effective way of altering consciousness without doing it any great harm
is to chemically intervene at the level of the synapse,
and this is easily done with these psychoactive plants that we're discussing.
All right, let's talk about, again, going back a little bit to the why one would want to do this.
I know that some people advocate that by entering an altered state of consciousness
or transitioning through them or spending time in them,
that one can alter one's perspective on one's own brain's functioning or on one's life
and achieve some power that is not normally accessible
so that one can actually achieve some benefit in the real world
from spending some amount of time in an altered state of consciousness.
Can you talk to that a little bit?
Yes. Well, you see, there's a tension between culture,
which is a kind of shared hallucination,
sanctioned through a shared language and a shared history,
and the individual who always, I think, in all times and places
has felt somewhat confined by cultural definition.
And whether we approve or disapprove of psychedelic experiences,
I think we can all agree that what they do is they dissolve boundaries.
They dissolve boundaries between the conscious and unconscious mind,
between oneself and the people around them,
between past and future,
and they dissolve cultural boundaries
and return us to, I guess, what I would call
the authentic legacy of the human body,
unmodified by cultural assumptions of psychedelics,
is very complicated,
because every culture is interested in maintaining its notion of boundaries
and not having those boundaries breached
or even closely examined and discussed.
And psychedelics just simply expose those boundaries
for exactly what they are,
which is provisional boundaries put in place by culture and language,
not God-sent, not eternally part of the human experience,
but very fleeting and transitory.
So all cultures have been uneasy around psychedelic substances,
and some have chosen to prohibit them,
and others, I think, have chosen the path
of actually teaching people how to understand
and navigate these spaces rather than forbidding them
or stigmatizing them.
Which is the position that I take on this program,
and that's what we're trying to do here
is do a little bit of education around this.
Do you think, then, that the psychedelics
allow us to sort of get outside of the limitations
to our thought that are imposed by the fact
that we think in our language
and our thinking is constrained by the structure of our language?
Yes, our thinking is constrained by the structure of our language,
but it's even more constrained by our cultural values
and our mundane expectations.
So, in a way, a psychedelic experience
is a vacation from the very confining dimension
that we define as cultural adaptation.
Interesting.
Well, that can be troubling sometimes, can it not?
I mean, I've certainly taken psychedelic drugs
and had very, very scary experiences with them.
I'm sorry, I didn't quite hear you.
It can be, what did you say?
I said, in my experience,
that can sometimes be a scary and upsetting thing.
I mean...
Oh, absolutely, it can, yes.
I mean, two people taking exactly the same psychedelic substance,
one may experience ecstasy,
and another may experience extreme discomfort or fear,
and really this has to do with personality types.
Some people want to transcend the limitations of culture,
and some people believe that beyond the frontier of culture,
there is madness and darkness,
and when they find themselves in those places,
they completely come apart.
I think of taking these psychedelic substances
as a very demanding, quasi-athletic undertaking,
like ocean kayaking or rock climbing,
and you want to know your tools,
you want to know the territory,
you want to be confident of your partners,
and, you know, some people enjoy
these kinds of thrilling forays into unusual dimensions,
and other people are perfectly comfortable
putting their feet up and watching daytime TV.
So, it's not for everyone.
On the other hand,
no one should seek to deny other people
the opportunity of having this experience.
Just a quick...
I'm sorry.
...to our attitudes toward various expressions
of our sexuality.
You know, some people would rather not hear about
the varieties of the sexual experience,
and for other people,
they find that challenging and interesting.
So, it's just part of humanness,
a part of humanness that our particular culture,
rooted in Calvinism and European empiricism
and values like that,
has been very nervous about,
especially since the news of many of these plants
has come to us from Aboriginal cultures
that we have tended to devalue, exterminate,
and consider inferior.
Quick question.
You were speaking of using psychedelics
for the purpose of spiritual enlightenment,
and I certainly agree to that,
but most of the cultures where this is done,
there is a context,
there is a language,
there is guidance.
When people take peyote,
they expect to see visions,
but there's a range of visions
within the American Indians
that they expect to see.
It's not just,
they're not doing it blindly,
they're not doing it totally off the top of their head.
Am I making any sense?
And your question is?
My question is,
I fear the danger of not taking it seriously.
I mean, taking it for fun, yeah,
but you're dealing with very powerful substances,
and you're dealing with your own mind,
which you find out things about.
Well, yes, I am definitely not an advocate,
and in fact I abhor the concept of recreational drugs.
I think this is an effort on the part of our culture
to trivialize the experience.
People who think taking drugs is easy
haven't taken the drugs I'm talking about,
and you're quite right.
You need a context.
First of all,
you need to control
the immediate environment around you.
It should be comfortable,
it should be reassured, familiar,
and then you need to have
a certain sophistication about your own psyche
and what might lie within.
You know, it's only been within the confines
of the 20th century
that Freud and Jung introduced Western people
to the idea that there were repressed
and atavistic portions of the human psyche.
So I, and you're right,
that our culture gives us no context for this,
so I urge people who are contemplating this
to read a little anthropology,
read some of the literature that has been produced
about the ways tribal people approach these things,
the techniques that they have evolved,
and then to proceed with great caution
and a real sense
that you may not be leaving your living room,
but in no sense of the word
can you treat these dimensions
as trivial or as mere entertainment,
because they will challenge
the limits of your ability
to understand and to feel
and to integrate.
This is what makes it so exciting
and for some people so perilous.
Have you read the Carlos Castaneda books,
and what do you think about them?
I have read them.
I think the first one was brilliant.
I believe after that he succumbed to pressure
from his publisher and his agent
and ceased to write a reportage
about psychedelic plant experiences
and instead substituted a kind of New Age
spiritualism and mumbo-jumbo.
The first book,
The Teachings of Don Juan,
I can hardly think of a better introduction
to the world we're talking about
than that book.
Unless it would be one of my books.
There you go.
And we'll give you time
to tell us about that.
Because I had heard
that people were saying
that his books were made up,
there was no source of truth,
and I loved especially the first book,
and I would hate to think
that he somehow made them up.
I can't imagine
that he made them up.
Well, I don't know
what making them up means.
I mean, did Proust make up
a lot of research to Tim Perdue?
He recalled,
he adumbrated,
he embellished.
I think what Castaneda
was not completely straightforward about
in his later books
was most of these altered states
cannot be achieved any way
other than through the use
of psychoactive plants.
Yoga is a different thing.
Meditation is a different thing.
and to try to trade
one for the other
is really to confuse the issue.
Terrence, you mentioned
that when one takes psychedelics,
that things can come up
from the subconscious.
And the question I have then
is that can the experience
then be useful
for sort of peeling away
at those lasers,
for accessing things
that maybe one has difficulty
gaining access to normally?
Well, yes.
A lot of psychotherapists
have made this same connection.
And many of these psychedelics
reveal repressed memories,
child's sight
on one's personal dilemmas
and so forth.
That's very interesting
to clinicians.
I'm more interested
in what's going on
at slightly higher dosages
where you enter
what I would call
a transpersonal realm.
In other words,
the realm not defined
by your own life history
and experience.
And that is the realm
that has parallels
to shamanism
and the mystical experience
and spirits sought after
by some of the world's
great religion.
What about psychedelic drugs
that aren't natural?
Like what about LSD,
for example?
Do you mean,
do I think they're legitimate
and so forth?
Right.
They raise issues
and problems
that we don't have
with the plants.
Some of them are effective.
You know,
when you're looking
at a drug
that's been used
for thousands of years
by aboriginal people,
you already have
medical data in hand.
The fact that these people
are using this substance
means it does not cause
blindness,
birth defects,
abortions,
the Parkinson's
symptom,
syndrome.
If you have a drug,
a white powder drug
straight out of the laboratory,
you really don't know
what you have
on your hand.
You may have
a perfectly benign
and effective substance
or you may have
something that
under the influence
of bad chemistry
or greedy marketeers
has been badly
synthesized
or combined
with other materials
that make it dangerous
or ineffective.
So,
in principle,
I think there are
many interesting
synthetic psychedelic
substances,
but in practice,
I think
the richer
and safer
experiences
are delivered
by the
psychoactive plants
with a long history
of human usage.
Let's talk about
safety now.
We have just
a few minutes left,
Terrence,
and since we've
talked about
some of the
interesting
sides of using
hallucinogens,
let's talk about
safety
and hallucinogens.
Can you give us
a rundown
of the important
cautions
that people should
be aware of
and maybe
repeating the
ones that you've
already given us?
Well,
as I said,
I mean,
I think if you're
going to
experiment with
these things,
you should
inform your
nearest and
dearest of
what you
intend.
You should
inform yourself
of the
spectrum of
activity that
you might
expect.
You should
arrange
to do this
in a situation
that is not
likely to
produce anxiety
or sudden
surprises.
I don't
think crowded
social
environments
full of
loud music
and complex
social signals
are the
best environment
to do
these things.
I think
people should
do these
things
conscientiously
and in
an informed
way.
So,
very carefully
is what
you're saying.
Very carefully.
Yes,
and every
substance
or every
plant that
you can
imagine
has a
vast body
of literature,
scientific,
medical,
anecdotal
literature,
that can
prepare you
for whatever
the experience
is going
to be.
The Internet
is a
tremendous
resource
in this
way,
and hundreds
of people
have described
their reactions
to these
things under
optimum conditions
and under
terrible
conditions.
and by
looking into
it and
informing
yourself,
I mean,
you would
not go
ocean
kayaking
without a
thorough
knowledge
of the
weather
patterns,
the behavior
of the
sea,
your own
boat,
and so on.
In other words,
just good sense
and caution.
And I dare
say,
if all this
is in
place,
the rewards
from these
things can
be tremendous.
I believe
that to
go from
birth to
the grave
without ever
having a
psychedelic
experience is
for a person
to make
that same
journey without
ever having
a sexual
experience.
These things
are part of
the legacy
of what it
is to be
a human
being.
Aboriginal
societies have
used them
for millennia,
they are part
of the
natural
environment of
the earth,
and I'm
confident that
the exploration
of the last
and greatest
frontier,
which is
the human
mind,
cannot really
proceed to
any depth
without availing
itself of
these things.
Fascinating.
Terrence,
where can
people get
information about
your books?
Do you
want to
give out
any contact?
My books
are sold
at major
bookstores
throughout the
world.
People can
visit my
website by
simply
searching my
name,
Terrence has
one R,
let me
point out.
T-E-R-E-N-C-E.
I do have a
new book
out with
the British
biologist
Rupert
Sheldrake and
the mathematician
Ralph
Abraham,
a book
called
The
Evolutionary
Mind,
and they
can order
that from
their local
bookstore.
They will
find when
they look
into this,
that there
is a
very rich
literature
discussing
these matters
at the
level of
anthropology,
pharmacology,
clinical
medicine,
experientially,
their impact
on art,
on culture,
on politics.
This is a
very big
part of who
we are,
and it's a
tragedy that
the timidity
of science
and political
institutions
has not
only stigmatized
these things,
but made
them illegal,
and by
doing so
has distorted
and ruined
a lot of
people's lives,
not people
who were
ordinarily part
of a criminal
enterprise or
class,
but people
who were
simply,
sincerely
interested
in
understanding
themselves.
Okay,
on that
note,
Terrence,
thank you
so much
for being
with us.
It's been
a real
pleasure.
It's been
a pleasure
talking to
you.
I'm so
happy the
phone
cooperated,
and thanks
for having
me on.
All right,
take care,
and I look
forward to
talking with
you again.
All right,
nice talking
with you.
Okay,
bye now.
Bye-bye.
See,
we couldn't
do the
radio show
in Hawaii
because of
the weather.
That's why
we have to
move to
San Francisco.
Because of
the weather
that we want
to do it
in Hawaii.
I'm sorry.
All right.
What an
articulate guest.
Yes,
I really
enjoyed it.
We had a lot
of good things
to say.
Candy Cane.
Nancy,
I can barely
hear you.
Really?
How can you
do anything
about that?
Is that
any better?
No.
You're just
in a noisy
environment.
Can you
hear me?
We can
hear you
fine.
I'm backstage
at the
Antro
nightclub,
the luxurious
Antro
theater in
Provincetown
where I just
finished
doing a gig
and is a
comedian
on stage
right now.
So,
Candy,
for people
who don't
know you,
people who
haven't heard
you on the
show before,
you want to
introduce yourself
briefly?
Well,
I'm luscious,
lickable,
sweet enough
to eat
now available
in dietetic
form as
Candy Cane.
Wow.
Extraordinaire.
All right.
So,
what's happening
down in
Provincetown?
Take only
as directed.
We've been
working really
hard.
I'm doing a
play with
Ryan Landry.
We're doing
Johnny Guitar,
which is a
first ever
staged version of
the Joan
Crawford
classic movie.
We've turned
it into a
stage production.
Really?
There's sets
here at the
intro.
Oh,
that must be
fun.
That's a lot
of fun.
And then I'm
performing with
Where the Boys
Are five nights
a week,
two shows a
night.
And then I'm
doing a show
called Live
and Unstable,
the multiple
personalities of
Candy Cane and
a one-woman
tribute to
schizophrenia.
Wow,
you sound busy.
And I just,
let's see what
else is new.
I just got back
from New York.
I filmed another
episode of the
Sally Jesse
Raphael show.
You did Sally
Jesse?
How did that go?
My third episode
of the Sally
Jesse Raphael show.
I am officially
trailer park trash
now.
What do you do
on Sally Jesse
Samuel?
What do you
talk about?
Well,
she came to see
the show here
in Provincetown
last summer.
And she loved
it.
So she had us
on in the
fall,
basically just
doing our
show.
There was no
controversy.
And your show
is...
There was no
counterpoint.
No Southern
Baptist ministers
getting up and
saying,
you're all
abomination
into the eyes
of the Lord.
You're all
going to hell.
None of that.
No fist fights,
no Jerry Springer
style chair
throwing.
How dull.
I know,
but you know.
What show
were you doing?
What is your
show?
Can you tell
people about...
Tell us about
your show a little
bit?
Well,
Where the Boys
Are is a
musical comedy
drag review.
It's got live
vocals,
celebrity look-alikes,
stand-up comedy.
We're at the
Antro Theater
in Provincetown.
And what's
your part
in this?
What's my
part?
I'm the hostess
and emcee,
stand-up comic,
and I'm doing
a bunch of
different crazy
characters,
original characters
and parodies of
certain celebrities
like Judge Judy.
Is this at all
like the show
that you did
on the North
Shore here
a few years
back?
It's a lot
like Boy
Rageous
that we did
in August.
That was a
great show.
Thank you.
One of the best
drag shows.
It's more
queer.
That was
more mainstream.
Oh, because
you're in
Provincetown?
This is our
home turf
here in
Provincetown,
so we get
to be a
little bit,
you know
what I'm
saying,
a little bit
more free.
I take a poll
at the beginning
of the show.
I ask them
if they want
the G-rated
Southern Baptist
approved
Disney-fied
clean version
of the show
or the PG
sort of late
night up past
11 dirty mouth
comedy jam
version of the show
that's very
popular with
Shriners
and Sodality
or the X-rated
dirty, rotten,
foul-mouthed
Southern Baptist
trashing version
in which I
performed the
full Monty.
And I always
go for that
version.
It's the only
version of the
show I know.
I just want to
test and see
whether they're
perverse or not.
And so, yes,
that's what I'm
doing here in
V-Town.
Okay, cut to
the chase here.
How's your
Nancy Nangeroni
imitation?
My Nancy
Nangeroni
imitation, I
put on a pair
of rollerblades
and I go down
by the hat shell
and try to
pick up
straight boys
and the
occasional
lesbian.
Without any
underwear on.
Yes.
There you go.
And the
tranny chasers.
Have you been,
Nancy?
Oh, good,
thanks.
Did you miss
me?
Oh, yeah,
always, Candy.
Where was the
last time you
were in Boston?
Too long, hon.
I was on Prozac.
I was all
over the place.
The last time I
saw you, I think
I had been to
Cancun and
Madrid and
Barcelona and I
went back to
London and
Paris.
Were you
performing in all
these places?
I was, yeah.
Not, wait,
not in Madrid and
Barcelona, but in
Cancun and
London.
I'm going to be
going back to do
a television pilot
in London in
the fall.
Really?
Now, what kind
of a pilot is
it?
It is a pilot
for the
equivalent of
a sitcom,
basically.
Really?
Yeah, their
shows are a
little bit more
natural.
Now, does that
mean you're
going to consider
doing a
British sitcom?
Yes, that's
what it means.
So that means
you would have
to move to
England?
Well, the
thing is that
they don't do,
in the States we
do 18 weeks of
shows, like 18
episodes.
They do like
six and eight.
They don't do as
many.
And my boyfriend
lives there, so
he has a home
there.
He comes back
and forth for
six months out
of the year.
So it's just
dividing my
time.
Cool.
So what else
is going on?
That's not
enough.
Seven days a
week, they
have two
shows a
night.
You work
hard, don't
you?
Are there
any drag
king-type
people performing
in Provincetown?
No, last
year, some of
the drag kings
did come to
town, like
Dredd, and
some of the
other girls,
guys, young
men.
Carefully,
carefully.
You know, the
thing was, I
draw as
well.
They don't, I
think the thing
is, because
Yeah, but can
they do comedy
on stage?
I mean, who
cares about their
drawing skills?
I can't tell
jokes either.
They performed
at the Vixen,
and they only,
you know, they
had small
audiences.
I don't know
what it is, but
it's just not as
shocking, I
guess, for girls
to get dressed
up as guys as
it is for guys
to get dressed
up as girls
in alcohol.
I don't know.
It's weird, because
in the media, in
terms of newspaper
stories and
magazines and
stuff, FTM is
definitely where
it's at.
Right.
There's much more
interest.
Yeah, exactly, but
that's because it's
not nearly as
well hatched out.
Yeah, it's less
familiar.
Right, it's the
unfamiliarity, and
so it might maybe
make an interesting
story in the living
section of the
newspaper, but that
doesn't mean you're
going to go see
people.
You're not going
to go out to a
club to see
someone perform as
Tom Jones or
Julio Iglesias.
You'd rather see
some guy in
Fishness.
Sarah Diana
Ross.
What?
AJ's making
funny faces at
me.
That is not
necessarily true.
Is that true?
Well, the box
office proves it.
Maybe it's the
box office in
Provincetown that
proves it.
It might be.
Maybe in
Northampton, for
example.
I'm just saying,
the question was
whether they were
performing here in
P-Town, and
Dred, I love
Dred, I think she's
fabulous, but their
show just didn't
draw too well in
P-Town, regrettably.
I love her.
Did you see her on
the Esplanade this
year?
No.
She did the Hat
Show show with
me.
Really?
Which I hosted.
This was Pride?
Pride, yeah, I
heard you were
hosting that.
Pride, the first
time we tried to
go around with
it.
Are you doing
something for
Cape Cod Pride?
Excuse me?
Are you doing
something for
Cape Cod Pride?
I've been asked
to, but I don't
know if I'm
going to be able
to.
Oh, it's
Saturday, you
know.
This Saturday?
Yeah.
You better make
up your mind.
It sounds like
you're not going
on my website,
my email address,
IwantCandy at
AOL.
If anybody wants
to drop me a
line.
No, is that
candy with a
K?
K-A-N-D-I.
IwantCandy.
So, let's
see, what
else?
What can I
ask you?
We've got about
a minute left
here?
Yeah, we've got
a minute left.
I'll tell you
what's new and
exciting.
Ryan Landry is
going to be
doing a production
of Rosemary's
Baby in
Boston.
Oh, my
God.
Talk about
bringing Johnny
Guitar to
Boston in the
fall, but I
don't know if
that's going to
happen, but he
does have a
new theater, a
small theater in
the South End.
Is he playing
Rosemary or
the baby?
I'm really not
sure.
Is Ryan Landry
a well-known?
He might play,
you know Ryan, he
might add a new
part as the
baby's nanny and
he'll be Louise
Woodward.
You never
know with
Ryan.
Ryan's like a
local celeb, right?
Would you say?
I suppose he
could be
considered that.
He could be
considered other
things, crack
addict and
drug whore,
things like
that.
I see.
And Candy
Cain is a
person who
never says
anything bad
about others.
No, of
course not.
All right,
Candy, we're
down to the
end of our
program.
Well, thank
you for making
a few moments
in your very
busy calendar
to have a
word with me.
Oh, listen
to this.
God, you
disgust me.
You disgust
me.
Have a good
time down
there in
Provincetown.
Say hi to
the crowds.
We're at the
Antro Theater
right above
Ben and
Jerry's next
to Town
Hall.
Good time
guaranteed for
all?
It's a good
time for
all of your
money back.
All right.
And we know
you know a
good time when
you see one.
Absolutely.
Thank you,
Candy.
Bye,
Bye.
Bye,
Bye.
Bye,
Bye.
Bye,
Huh.
You know,
it was,
I'm gone.
Can you bring
me up a little
bit,
Hal?
Are you not there?
I can't hear
anything.
Oh,
there I am.
Yeah,
it was really
cool when I
first started
hanging out with
Candy,
getting to know
her a little
bit.
She's
very vivacious.
She is.
She's got so
much energy.
It's amazing.
Oh,
that's right.
You've never
met Candy,
have you?
No.
I'm around here
a lot more
and we're
hanging together
a little bit.
You know,
I got to see
kind of behind
the scenes,
like the work
that Charlie does
to make Candy
happen.
Oh.
Really impressed
me.
It just,
I mean,
just very,
very businesslike,
very focused,
extremely professional.
In fact,
Charlie has co-hosted
and hosted shows
before here.
Yeah.
And anyway,
it's his,
her success
is richly deserved.
It's a hardworking
person who cares
about the community
too.
It's done
some good things
for us.
So anyway,
that does it
for our program
for tonight,
I think.
Any other comments?
Anybody?
Nope.
Good.
I think we're good.
I'm commentless.
You're commentless,
Karen?
Wow, Karen.
All right.
Well,
let's see.
Our website,
once again,
www.gendertalk.com.
Pass a visit,
say hi.
And IFGE
International Foundation
for Gender Education.
If you have any
questions about
transgenderism,
if you're
trying to find
resources and
having trouble,
give IFGE a call,
781-899-2212
or check out
their website
at www.ifge.org.
And now,
on behalf of
Engineer Hal Fuller,
co-host A.J. Dirks,
producer Karen Larson
and editor Mark Semek,
and...
and myself. Thanks again for listening. And remember, no matter what the occasion, there's
always room. No, gender talk is always appropriate. Oh, good. Good, good. And the views and opinions
on the preceding program do not necessarily reflect those of the staff in management
of WNBR, the Technology Broadcasting Corporation, or MIT. Good night, Nancy. Good night, Hal.
Stay tuned now for Sinopop. Good night, everyone.