WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:24.870 we're going to talk about the evolutionary mind this morning it's the topic of our book that's 00:24.870 --> 00:32.550 just coming out at the moment and it prepares the way for thinking about the change in consciousness 00:32.550 --> 00:40.430 at the Millennium obviously what happens at the Millennium is something to do with our minds it's 00:40.430 --> 00:45.470 not as if the laws of nature are all going to change at the year 2000 it's a mental event a 00:45.470 --> 00:51.510 social event a cultural event and we're going to start this morning by talking about the 00:51.510 --> 01:01.360 evolutionary context for it our book called the evolutionary mind comes at a time when there's 01:01.360 --> 01:07.500 a tremendous amount of interest in evolutionary psychology psychologists in the last five to ten 01:07.500 --> 01:15.120 years have discovered Darwin and I keep meeting psychologists who speak to me with that sort of 01:15.120 --> 01:18.420 enthusiasm and bright-eyed quality of the new consciousness 01:18.480 --> 01:24.840 they've seen the light they've discovered Darwin and I wonder why as a biologist they haven't 01:24.840 --> 01:32.100 discovered Darwin a long time ago Darwin after all opened up the field of evolutionary psychology 01:32.100 --> 01:40.080 with his book the expression of emotions in man and the animals and there was a lot of speculation 01:40.080 --> 01:47.000 at the end of the 19th century about the evolution of consciousness however academic psychology this 01:48.480 --> 01:54.660 was not involved in behaviorism rats in cages pushing levers and now cognitive psychology 01:54.660 --> 02:03.180 computer models of neural processes none of which has left much space for evolutionary theorizing so 02:03.180 --> 02:10.620 they've come rather late to this evolutionary speculation there's been a permission given to 02:10.620 --> 02:18.120 biologists to speculate about evolution of the mind in this way by the analysis of 02:18.480 --> 02:24.900 selfish genes they feel if it's they're talking about selfish genes it's somehow scientific and 02:24.900 --> 02:30.960 it's given everyone permission this is this kind of discussion is epitomized in Steven Pinker's recent 02:30.960 --> 02:38.280 book how the mind works and it's based on the idea that human behavior is determined by genes 02:38.280 --> 02:45.420 there's a gene for everything and they then work out in theoretical terms what these genes would 02:45.420 --> 02:47.940 lead us to expect the selfish behavior of the genes 02:48.480 --> 02:55.560 unfortunately their conclusions are not terribly surprising or deep and at the end of a lecture he 02:55.560 --> 03:01.820 gave recently in London which was met with considerable skepticism somebody said well now 03:01.820 --> 03:07.100 just give us one the most important clear idea you've been able to deduce from your selfish gene 03:07.100 --> 03:15.300 theory and he said that after lengthy calculations they'd found that because females have only one or 03:15.300 --> 03:18.460 two eggs at a time which are irrelevant to their own genes they're not able to deduce from their own genes 03:18.480 --> 03:23.220 that they have a rare and precious resource that needs conserving whereas males produce millions 03:23.220 --> 03:31.200 of sperm they deduced after a lot of working out that women would tend to seek high status males and 03:31.200 --> 03:37.620 want to stay with them whereas men would tend to be promiscuous to spread selfish genes more freely 03:39.420 --> 03:47.600 there was an air of disappointment in the lecture hall and somebody was had to say is that all 03:50.720 --> 03:57.260 right anyway this the fact that this rather closed world of selfish gene speculation is going on has 03:57.260 --> 04:02.240 given other people within the scientific world permission to think more widely about evolution 04:02.780 --> 04:07.700 most evolutionary theories are purely speculative since we don't really know what happened in the 04:07.700 --> 04:15.740 past many of them are just so stories rather like Kipling's accounts of how the leopard got its spots 04:15.740 --> 04:20.060 and so on but there have been in this modern 04:20.720 --> 04:27.260 the explosion of speculation about our evolutionary past there are several rather interesting ideas 04:27.260 --> 04:31.820 that have come up and I just wanted to bring up two or three of these this morning because 04:33.560 --> 04:38.420 although there's no shortage of speculations about what happened in the human past in the 04:38.420 --> 04:44.900 books of Terence McKenna there are several new ideas which might amplify these ideas about 04:44.900 --> 04:50.660 conscious evolution the first ideas that I want to talk 04:50.660 --> 04:57.320 about it by put forward in a book by Stephen mythen m-i-t-h-e-n called the prehistory of the mind 04:58.040 --> 05:04.040 he's a British archaeologist but in this book he's brought together a wealth of evidence from the 05:04.040 --> 05:11.840 fossil record from archaeology from the study of primate behavior and from the study of child 05:11.840 --> 05:18.620 psychology to put together a very interesting discussion of what happened to human minds 05:18.620 --> 05:20.600 during the three and a half million years 05:20.660 --> 05:28.820 of human evolution before recorded history began the first upright walking hominids are now believed 05:28.820 --> 05:35.600 to have emerged in Africa over three and a half million years ago Australopithecus these were 05:35.600 --> 05:45.080 upright walking tool using they use simple stone tools precursors of ourselves human history three 05:45.080 --> 05:50.540 and a half million years of it went on before we have the records from the great civilizations 05:50.660 --> 05:56.480 the domestication of animals the agricultural Revolution occurred 10 000 years ago the first 05:56.480 --> 06:03.680 civilizations about 5 000 years ago maybe 7 000 years ago industrialization two or three hundred 06:03.680 --> 06:09.860 years ago but for the vast majority of human history people were living in quite a quite 06:09.860 --> 06:15.500 different way and it seems to me a very reasonable supposition that a great deal of our psychology a 06:15.500 --> 06:20.120 great deal of the working of our minds has been shaped by this enormously long period about which 06:20.660 --> 06:27.500 so little what my then points out is that these although we don't know what they thought about 06:27.500 --> 06:35.600 and how they worked for these early human beings these early hominids must have had several 06:35.600 --> 06:41.120 different kinds of intelligence they must have had a social intelligence they were social beings 06:41.120 --> 06:46.640 they lived in social groups and we know from studies of chimpanzees and other social primates 06:46.640 --> 06:51.680 that there are very subtle interactions within the group there are dominance interactions there 06:52.100 --> 06:57.380 are cooperative interactions and to get it right requires a kind of intelligence about what how 06:57.380 --> 07:02.840 other members of the group are going to react what's appropriate behavior and so on all social 07:02.840 --> 07:08.720 animals must involve some kind of social intelligence and we can reasonably assume that our 07:08.720 --> 07:15.020 ancestors our hominid ancestors had a social intelligence to enable them to live together and 07:15.020 --> 07:20.000 work together in social groups they had a technical intelligence that enabled them to make 07:20.000 --> 07:22.040 stone tools and maybe other 07:22.100 --> 07:28.400 technical devices or technical things maybe fibers and string which haven't left traces in the 07:28.400 --> 07:35.780 archaeological record they must have had a natural historical intelligence because if you're living as 07:35.780 --> 07:41.660 a hunter-gatherer as they did then unless you know what to hunt and how to hunt it what the 07:41.660 --> 07:46.640 habits of the animals are that you're hunting if you know unless you know what to gather where to 07:46.640 --> 07:52.040 gather it what things are good to eat what things are good as herbs you don't get very far and this 07:52.100 --> 07:57.440 requires an enormously detailed knowledge of natural history it's not just human beings 07:57.440 --> 08:03.440 chimpanzees have to have this and many other creatures so this must have been part of their 08:03.440 --> 08:08.600 mental makeup and then at some stage they began to talk and they must have had a linguistic 08:08.600 --> 08:14.420 intelligence we don't know when language began some people put it 50,000 years ago some people 08:14.420 --> 08:21.860 put it much longer ago but that really nobody knows language leaves no fossil traces but 08:22.100 --> 08:28.640 something very strange happened about a hundred thousand years ago our ancestors achieved brain 08:28.640 --> 08:35.660 sizes roughly the same as ours today so for a hundred thousand years human beings have had 08:35.660 --> 08:42.740 brains of the current capacity yet for a hundred thousand years they were not writing programs and 08:42.740 --> 08:49.340 building computers and thinking up Einstein's equations and so on something else was going on 08:49.340 --> 08:51.980 with those brains and we haven't a clue what it was 08:52.100 --> 08:58.220 that brain size the development of current brain size is not the reason that there's been this 08:58.220 --> 09:03.560 explosion of technical innovation recently brain size hasn't changed much for a hundred thousand 09:03.560 --> 09:13.760 years and it wasn't until about 50,000 years ago that there was the beginnings of art paintings 09:13.760 --> 09:21.720 in caves and that kind of thing some things what happened why did art and civilization only begin 09:21.720 --> 09:22.080 to develop in the early 20th century and not in the early 20th century and not in the early 20th century 09:22.080 --> 09:22.100 and not in the early 20th century and not in the early 20th century and not in the early 20th century 09:22.100 --> 09:28.860 tens of thousands of years after the brain had reached its present capacity and what enabled these 09:28.860 --> 09:35.780 different kinds of intelligence to give rise to the agricultural revolution modern humanity and 09:35.780 --> 09:43.940 so on well the hypothesis that my then puts forward is that about 50,000 years ago some 09:43.940 --> 09:51.620 crucial transition occurred whereby these previously separate intelligences somehow came together cross 09:51.620 --> 09:59.960 fertilized each other and produced the beginnings of characteristically human mentality the 09:59.960 --> 10:05.060 connection of social and technical intelligence meant that people started using technical skills 10:05.060 --> 10:13.620 for making things like jewelry ornaments grave goods the mixing of technical and natural historical 10:13.620 --> 10:21.600 intelligence led to a great improvement in hunting technologies in weapons in axe heads and spearheads and 10:21.600 --> 10:30.080 so on the merging of social and natural historical intelligence led to a whole kind of mythic 10:30.080 --> 10:35.100 understanding of the animal in the natural world which we find in all cultures around the world 10:35.100 --> 10:45.360 today and with the combining these with linguistic intelligence there was a whole burst of human 10:45.360 --> 10:51.580 development of mental development he compares this to a cathedral a Romanesque cathedral 10:51.580 --> 10:56.580 a Romanesque and Norman cathedral has side chapels almost sealed off from each other with no interaction 10:56.580 --> 11:01.680 whereas the great Gothic cathedral sort of open up and all these different things can mix together 11:01.680 --> 11:08.480 somehow he thinks this transition fifty thousand years ago was associated with the origin of 11:08.480 --> 11:15.620 religion and seems to have been based on a sense of human connection not just with the earth but 11:15.620 --> 11:19.740 with the heavens when I asked my then 11:19.740 --> 11:21.560 how do you know that we are connected to the heavens what if I asked you how do you know that 11:21.560 --> 11:28.480 he understood this to have happened, especially given his chosen metaphor of the cathedral. 11:28.480 --> 11:34.260 I said, do you think there really was a breakthrough from some extra-terrestrial intelligence into 11:34.260 --> 11:39.240 the human realm at that stage, since all your evidence points to it? 11:39.240 --> 11:45.560 And he said, of course not, that's impossible. 11:45.560 --> 11:48.300 So I said, how do you know it's impossible? 11:48.300 --> 11:52.440 Since everybody all around the world according to your own evidence seems to have undergone 11:52.440 --> 11:57.360 this transition, it seems to have shaped human mentality as we know it. 11:57.360 --> 12:00.880 He said, oh yes, he said well the very fact everyone believes it shows that this is an 12:00.880 --> 12:03.600 incredibly persistent illusion. 12:03.600 --> 12:10.750 And I said, but how do you know it's an illusion? 12:10.750 --> 12:13.110 He said, because it's so persistent. 12:13.110 --> 12:21.100 And I said, surely you can have things that are true that are persistent too. 12:21.100 --> 12:23.380 He admitted in the end it was just a matter of opinion. 12:23.380 --> 12:23.460 Yeah. 12:23.460 --> 12:30.800 But everything he said points towards some breakthrough to another realm of consciousness 12:30.800 --> 12:35.460 around 50,000 years ago, and something that happened with human groups all around the earth. 12:35.460 --> 12:41.720 And I think this is the first time I've seen a convincing building up of evidence from somebody 12:41.720 --> 12:48.260 who's coming from a very hard-nosed position that gives us some clue as to a major shift 12:48.260 --> 12:53.600 in consciousness that happened, and it involved some connection with a higher dimension. 12:53.600 --> 12:59.840 Now, some people will like to interpret that in terms of visits of spaceships, chariots of the gods, and so forth. 13:01.100 --> 13:04.140 I think that there are many other ways of thinking about it, 13:04.180 --> 13:07.300 and I can guess that Terence will be able to suggest at least one. 13:10.980 --> 13:12.180 Consider it done. 13:17.410 --> 13:19.290 But before we get... 13:19.290 --> 13:20.330 There's one other... 13:20.730 --> 13:25.210 speculation about the past I want to mention, which I found particularly interesting 13:25.210 --> 13:28.110 out of this year's crop of books on the subject, 13:28.110 --> 13:31.610 which is Barbara Ehrenreich's book, Blood Rites. 13:31.610 --> 13:34.310 She's an American writer based in New York, 13:34.310 --> 13:41.250 and in her book Blood Rites, completely changed around my idea of human prehistory. 13:41.250 --> 13:45.410 What she shows, very convincingly, is that our image of man the hunter 13:45.410 --> 13:49.770 striding forth onto the African savannah about three million years ago, 13:49.770 --> 13:50.490 um, 13:50.490 --> 13:53.490 is, in fact, pretty implausible. 13:53.490 --> 13:56.490 Human beings were small, they were... 13:56.490 --> 14:01.490 they couldn't run very fast, they weren't particularly strong, their tools were extremely primitive. 14:01.490 --> 14:07.490 It's much more likely that for most of human history it was not man the hunter, but man the hunt head. 14:07.490 --> 14:12.490 Um, in fact, most bone remains of early hominids 14:12.490 --> 14:18.490 show the marks and scratches and tooth marks of large cats on them. 14:18.490 --> 14:20.490 Human beings were on the African savannah. 14:20.490 --> 14:23.490 With lots of game, but also with lots of big predators. 14:23.490 --> 14:25.490 They were extremely vulnerable. 14:25.490 --> 14:30.490 And a great deal of modern, of human mentality, she argues, was shaped by 14:30.490 --> 14:35.490 millions of years of being preyed on by large predators. 14:35.490 --> 14:42.490 It wasn't until about 50,000 years ago that there was an improvement in hunting technologies 14:42.490 --> 14:48.490 all around the world, whereby human beings could indeed become fairly effective hunters. 14:48.490 --> 14:49.490 But for most of the world, 14:49.490 --> 14:53.490 for most of the three and a half million years of hominid history, 14:53.490 --> 14:55.490 it was man the hunt head. 14:55.490 --> 15:00.490 She shows, very interestingly, that this sheds light on many religious traditions, 15:00.490 --> 15:06.490 because in many religious traditions there's the idea of the victim, the sacrificial victim. 15:06.490 --> 15:14.490 If you're a collective, a herd of wildebeest or baboons in a group out in the desert, 15:14.490 --> 15:18.490 and a predator approaches, the predators usually attack isolated members of the group. 15:18.490 --> 15:25.490 The old, the young, or sometimes the young males who are defending the group on the periphery. 15:25.490 --> 15:28.490 Those are the ones that get killed first. 15:28.490 --> 15:32.490 And when they've killed one of them, they start eating it, 15:32.490 --> 15:34.490 and very often the rest of the group then relax, 15:34.490 --> 15:38.490 and they often stand around and watch the predator eating the prey. 15:38.490 --> 15:42.490 Because once they've got one victim, they're not hungry anymore. 15:42.490 --> 15:44.490 They're not interested in the rest. 15:44.490 --> 15:46.490 So one dies for the sake of the rest. 15:46.490 --> 15:47.490 This is a simple fact. 15:47.490 --> 15:50.490 This is a simple fact of predation. 15:50.490 --> 15:52.490 And she shows that this pattern, 15:52.490 --> 15:56.490 the idea of a sacrificial victim that dies for the sake of the rest, 15:56.490 --> 16:00.490 is deeply embedded in our consciousness as an archetypal pattern 16:00.490 --> 16:06.490 based in this biological fact of predation and the fact that we were preyed upon. 16:06.490 --> 16:10.490 She also shows that most of the early visions of gods and goddesses 16:10.490 --> 16:14.490 were in the form of carnivores. 16:14.490 --> 16:17.490 Even Jehovah is a carnivore. 16:17.490 --> 16:19.490 This is the story of Cain and Abel, 16:19.490 --> 16:25.490 where Cain is a farmer and offers the fruit of the earth to God as a sacrifice, 16:25.490 --> 16:28.490 and Abel is a herder and offers a sheep. 16:28.490 --> 16:31.490 God prefers the sacrifice of Abel. 16:31.490 --> 16:35.490 He prefers meat to vegetarian diet, 16:35.490 --> 16:38.490 and that's why Cain kills Abel. 16:38.490 --> 16:40.490 He's jealous. 16:40.490 --> 16:44.490 And so this carnivorous quality of the gods 16:44.490 --> 16:46.490 is associated with images of the gods 16:46.490 --> 16:49.490 in association with predatory animals. 16:49.490 --> 16:53.490 She then goes on to show that whole nations identify with predators 16:53.490 --> 16:56.490 as a kind of justification for war making, 16:56.490 --> 16:59.490 where the whole nation becomes like a predator. 16:59.490 --> 17:01.490 The symbol of England and many other countries 17:01.490 --> 17:05.490 is the lion of America, of the United States, the eagle, and so on. 17:05.490 --> 17:09.490 All around the world you find these predatory animals as national emblems. 17:09.490 --> 17:14.490 Well, I think her insights are particularly interesting 17:14.490 --> 17:15.490 and because 17:15.490 --> 17:18.490 of this long history, 17:18.490 --> 17:20.490 it shows so much of our mythology, 17:20.490 --> 17:22.490 religious structure, and fears 17:22.490 --> 17:25.490 are related to this long period of being preyed on. 17:25.490 --> 17:28.490 She shows the fantasies, the nightmares of young children 17:28.490 --> 17:30.490 in modern cities like New York 17:30.490 --> 17:32.490 until they're about five years old, 17:32.490 --> 17:34.490 and not about child molesters 17:34.490 --> 17:37.490 and realistic fears, or at least the fears their parents have. 17:37.490 --> 17:41.490 They're about being eaten by monsters and wild animals. 17:41.490 --> 17:44.490 This is what most children's nightmares are about. 17:44.490 --> 17:48.490 And this would go back to a long period of history. 17:48.490 --> 17:51.490 So here we have two ideas, 17:51.490 --> 17:54.490 Meythin's ideas and Barbara Ehrenreich's ideas 17:54.490 --> 17:56.490 about early human history, 17:56.490 --> 17:57.490 which would give memories, 17:57.490 --> 17:59.490 I would think of them as memories 17:59.490 --> 18:01.490 in the collective memory through morphic resonance. 18:01.490 --> 18:04.490 Jung would call them collective archetypes 18:04.490 --> 18:07.490 in the collective unconscious. 18:07.490 --> 18:10.490 Things which are built into our past, 18:10.490 --> 18:13.490 our memory that has shaped the way our minds are today, 18:13.490 --> 18:15.490 of which we're largely unaware, 18:15.490 --> 18:17.490 because our normal study of history begins 18:17.490 --> 18:20.490 with the civilizations of the Near East, 18:20.490 --> 18:23.490 with Egypt, with Greece, Rome, and so forth, 18:23.490 --> 18:26.490 and leaves out the previous three and a half million years 18:26.490 --> 18:28.490 of human history which have really done 18:28.490 --> 18:31.490 so much to shape our evolutionary nature, 18:31.490 --> 18:34.490 and therefore condition the way we respond 18:34.490 --> 18:37.490 to each other today and in the future. 18:37.490 --> 18:39.490 I think that our evolutionary history 18:39.490 --> 18:41.490 is rooted in the past, 18:41.490 --> 18:43.490 but I've been reading on my own 18:43.490 --> 18:44.490 on my journey here, 18:44.490 --> 18:46.490 this novel, On the Edge, 18:46.490 --> 18:48.490 just published in England last week 18:48.490 --> 18:50.490 by Edward St. Aubin. 18:50.490 --> 18:52.490 It's set in California. 18:52.490 --> 18:56.490 The crucial scenes occur in Esalen. 18:56.490 --> 19:01.060 And here's a conversation going on 19:01.060 --> 19:04.060 in the hot tubs on page 130. 19:04.060 --> 19:07.060 According to Terence McKenna, 19:07.060 --> 19:08.060 said Flavia, 19:08.060 --> 19:10.060 who happens to be a genius 19:10.060 --> 19:13.060 instead of an arrogant British jerk, 19:15.060 --> 19:17.060 he's a genius. 19:17.060 --> 19:20.060 History is rooted in the future. 19:29.370 --> 19:31.370 Can I jump in? 19:31.370 --> 19:34.740 Well, first of all, 19:34.740 --> 19:38.740 let's just assume that I've responded to this 19:38.740 --> 19:41.740 with the usual rap about diet, mushrooms, 19:41.740 --> 19:43.740 so forth and so on, 19:43.740 --> 19:45.740 that if you know anything about my work, 19:45.740 --> 19:46.740 you have heard ad nauseum, 19:46.740 --> 19:48.740 ad infinitum. 19:48.740 --> 19:51.740 So just go past that and say, 19:51.740 --> 19:52.740 and remind you, 19:52.740 --> 19:55.740 Rup and I have not really had a good conversation 19:55.740 --> 19:57.740 for 20 months, 19:57.740 --> 20:01.740 but I guess arranging ourselves 20:01.740 --> 20:04.740 according to the demands of the morphogenetic field, 20:04.740 --> 20:08.740 we're sort of thinking along the same creodes, 20:08.740 --> 20:12.740 because in my trying to understand 20:12.740 --> 20:15.740 at greater levels this moment of transition 20:15.740 --> 20:17.740 50,000 years ago, 20:17.740 --> 20:19.740 or this moment of breakthrough, 20:19.740 --> 20:21.740 what exactly were the elements 20:21.740 --> 20:23.740 and how did it happen, 20:23.740 --> 20:26.740 I've sort of come very close 20:26.740 --> 20:30.740 to this area that Rupert's indicating this morning, 20:30.740 --> 20:35.740 because I can't help but notice 20:35.740 --> 20:40.740 that a successful predator 20:40.740 --> 20:44.740 must think like prey, 20:44.740 --> 20:50.740 that there is this peculiar intellectual symbiosis 20:50.740 --> 20:55.740 that goes on between the predator and the prey, 20:55.740 --> 20:58.740 and hunting cats, 20:58.740 --> 21:01.740 top carnivores, I think, 21:01.740 --> 21:05.740 internalize the behaviors of their prey. 21:05.740 --> 21:09.740 Well, at the very dawn of the emergence, 21:09.740 --> 21:12.740 of the evolutionary emergence of mind, 21:12.740 --> 21:16.740 the central human figure in that equation 21:16.740 --> 21:18.740 is the shaman. 21:18.740 --> 21:22.740 And the shaman at the high paleolithic stage 21:22.740 --> 21:28.740 is essentially a kind of sanctioned psychotic. 21:28.740 --> 21:33.740 In other words, able to move into states of mind 21:33.740 --> 21:38.740 so extreme that their immediate social efficacy 21:38.740 --> 21:40.740 is arguable. 21:40.740 --> 21:43.740 To condense that into common English, 21:43.740 --> 21:45.740 what I mean is the shaman is a person, 21:45.740 --> 21:48.740 a designated member of the social group 21:48.740 --> 21:51.740 who can mentally change into an animal, 21:51.740 --> 21:54.740 who can become so animal-like 21:54.740 --> 21:57.740 that other members of the social group 21:57.740 --> 22:00.740 are appalled and draw back. 22:00.740 --> 22:02.740 And so in a weird way, 22:02.740 --> 22:04.740 at this fractal boundary 22:04.740 --> 22:08.740 where human consciousness emerges, 22:08.740 --> 22:10.740 the first human consciousness 22:10.740 --> 22:12.740 was not human at all. 22:12.740 --> 22:15.740 It was a human ability 22:15.740 --> 22:19.740 to model effectively 22:19.740 --> 22:22.740 the thinking processes of other predators. 22:22.740 --> 22:24.740 With mathematical models. 22:24.740 --> 22:28.740 With mathematical models and precision, yes. 22:28.740 --> 22:32.740 And so, yes, 22:32.740 --> 22:34.740 what we're talking about 22:34.740 --> 22:36.740 when we're talking about hunting 22:36.740 --> 22:39.740 is we're talking about strategic thinking. 22:39.740 --> 22:41.740 And strategic thinking always involves 22:41.740 --> 22:45.740 bifurcating trees of choice. 22:45.740 --> 22:49.740 If we go to the waterhole at dawn, 22:49.740 --> 22:51.740 perhaps we can make a kill. 22:51.740 --> 22:55.740 If we take food and leave the women and children 22:55.740 --> 22:58.740 and go in this direction several days, 22:58.740 --> 23:00.740 perhaps we will make a kill. 23:00.740 --> 23:01.740 Perhaps not. 23:01.740 --> 23:04.740 Perhaps by abandoning the women and the children 23:04.740 --> 23:06.740 we will undercut our gene pool 23:06.740 --> 23:08.740 and return to catastrophe. 23:08.740 --> 23:10.740 Strategic thinking. 23:10.740 --> 23:14.740 What strategic thinking requires 23:14.740 --> 23:18.740 is the ability to contemplate 23:18.740 --> 23:22.740 possibilities not immediately present. 23:22.740 --> 23:23.740 In other words, 23:23.740 --> 23:27.740 there's a kind of time-binding function here. 23:27.740 --> 23:30.740 So I'm really not so much posing a question to Rupp 23:30.740 --> 23:33.740 as adumbrating what he said. 23:33.740 --> 23:36.740 I think this is where it all comes together 23:36.740 --> 23:38.740 in this very complicated, 23:38.740 --> 23:44.740 this relationship between fear, expectation, 23:44.740 --> 23:48.740 strategizing and the imagination. 23:48.740 --> 23:51.740 The two areas where I'm sure we spend 23:51.740 --> 23:53.740 a great deal of time studying 23:53.740 --> 23:57.740 these bifurcating trees of possibility 23:57.740 --> 24:01.740 were in the food-gathering and hunting domain 24:01.740 --> 24:04.740 and then in the sexual domain, 24:04.740 --> 24:08.740 which today we call erotic fantasy. 24:08.740 --> 24:10.740 But in the high paleolithic, 24:10.740 --> 24:13.740 erotic fantasy was rather closely welded 24:13.740 --> 24:16.740 to where your genes went 24:16.740 --> 24:23.740 and how your biological propagation processes preceded. 24:23.740 --> 24:25.740 So the key, 24:25.740 --> 24:27.740 whether you believe it was 24:27.740 --> 24:30.740 through the stimulation of psilocybin 24:30.740 --> 24:33.740 or through the aping of the behavior 24:33.740 --> 24:37.740 of other top predators that we aspired to compete with, 24:37.740 --> 24:40.740 whatever the causal mechanism, 24:40.740 --> 24:44.740 the domain in which the change was born 24:44.740 --> 24:46.740 and in which we will live 24:46.740 --> 24:49.740 until we leave the body behind us, 24:49.740 --> 24:52.740 is the domain of the imagination. 24:52.740 --> 24:56.740 This is what we created 24:56.740 --> 24:58.740 that is uniquely human 24:58.740 --> 25:01.740 and that has defined us ever since. 25:01.740 --> 25:04.740 And as this discussion today proceeds to look 25:04.740 --> 25:07.740 more into the future, 25:07.740 --> 25:10.740 I think we will see that as the imagination 25:10.740 --> 25:12.740 has been our past 25:12.740 --> 25:15.740 and the cradle of our humanness, 25:15.740 --> 25:17.740 so it also is the domain 25:17.740 --> 25:22.740 in which our trans-human metamorphosis 25:22.740 --> 25:26.740 will occur. 25:26.740 --> 25:29.740 Something like that. 25:29.740 --> 25:31.740 As far as I can see, 25:31.740 --> 25:33.740 this is dancing around an intellectual black hole 25:33.740 --> 25:35.740 or something. 25:35.740 --> 25:37.740 Here we have 25:37.740 --> 25:39.740 the question is posed, 25:39.740 --> 25:41.740 as I gather of Steven Meythen, 25:41.740 --> 25:44.740 that in the evolution of consciousness 25:44.740 --> 25:46.740 or culture, 25:46.740 --> 25:48.740 I'm not sure which, 25:48.740 --> 25:51.740 there was bifurcation 50,000 years ago 25:51.740 --> 25:53.740 which is of interest to us 25:53.740 --> 25:55.740 because we're in one now. 25:55.740 --> 25:59.740 And the question is, 25:59.740 --> 26:01.740 what was it caused by? 26:01.740 --> 26:03.740 And then Rupert proposed 26:03.740 --> 26:05.740 that you would of course answer 26:05.740 --> 26:07.740 the psilocybin mushroom 26:07.740 --> 26:09.740 claims of Africa, 26:09.740 --> 26:10.740 but you didn't. 26:10.740 --> 26:12.740 And the need to think strategically. 26:12.740 --> 26:14.740 But why this need 26:14.740 --> 26:16.740 not only was a constant 26:16.740 --> 26:18.740 throughout the three and a half million years 26:18.740 --> 26:20.740 evolution of hominids, 26:20.740 --> 26:21.740 but also in pongids, 26:21.740 --> 26:23.740 apes, 26:23.740 --> 26:25.740 and 26:25.740 --> 26:27.740 swarming bees, 26:27.740 --> 26:28.740 schooling fish, 26:28.740 --> 26:29.740 and so on. 26:29.740 --> 26:30.740 This is more or less 26:30.740 --> 26:31.740 no news here. 26:31.740 --> 26:32.740 What was it then 26:32.740 --> 26:34.740 that happened 50,000 years ago 26:34.740 --> 26:36.740 if anything happened? 26:36.740 --> 26:39.740 I know that this will not be 26:39.740 --> 26:42.740 a favorite hypothesis in this audience, 26:42.740 --> 26:44.740 but it's one that has to be counted. 26:44.740 --> 26:46.740 Do you ask, are there any other? 26:46.740 --> 26:49.740 What did he suggest actually, Steven Meythen? 26:49.740 --> 26:52.740 He doesn't give a very clear explanation 26:52.740 --> 26:54.740 as to why this might have happened. 26:54.740 --> 26:56.740 He's a youngish man, I suppose. 26:58.740 --> 27:00.740 Who probably has not read 27:00.740 --> 27:02.740 the great books of his predecessors 27:02.740 --> 27:05.740 such as, let's say for example, 27:05.740 --> 27:07.740 Alexander Marshak, 27:07.740 --> 27:09.740 who led a great group of 27:09.740 --> 27:11.740 a combined group of two species 27:11.740 --> 27:13.740 of neurophysiologists 27:13.740 --> 27:15.740 and archaeologists 27:15.740 --> 27:17.740 in the distant past 27:17.740 --> 27:19.740 to propose that miracle that occurred 27:19.740 --> 27:21.740 like the beginning of Cro-Magnon 27:21.740 --> 27:23.740 50,000 years ago 27:23.740 --> 27:25.740 had to do with a structural change 27:25.740 --> 27:27.740 in neurophysiology. 27:27.740 --> 27:29.740 This presents the view, 27:29.740 --> 27:31.740 if you want to look at it that way, 27:31.740 --> 27:33.740 God as a brain surgeon, 27:33.740 --> 27:35.740 also known as the whole 27:35.740 --> 27:37.740 in the head, 27:37.740 --> 27:39.740 where the connection between 27:39.740 --> 27:41.740 the hemispheres was improved 27:41.740 --> 27:43.740 in the corpus callosum 27:43.740 --> 27:45.740 and this physiological evolution 27:45.740 --> 27:47.740 provided an evolutionary advantage 27:47.740 --> 27:49.740 in hunting and so on. 27:49.740 --> 27:51.740 As an evolution theorist, 27:51.740 --> 27:53.740 you would have to say, 27:53.740 --> 27:55.740 well, if there was 27:55.740 --> 27:57.740 divine brain surgery, 27:57.740 --> 27:59.740 then it could have been 27:59.740 --> 28:01.740 in response to a leading element 28:01.740 --> 28:03.740 in the evolution 28:03.740 --> 28:05.740 of some morphogenetic field. 28:05.740 --> 28:07.740 No, thinking of this 28:07.740 --> 28:09.740 as a chicken and egg 28:09.740 --> 28:11.740 kind of thing is like 28:11.740 --> 28:13.740 the physiological change 28:13.740 --> 28:15.740 there was a physiological change 28:15.740 --> 28:17.740 was there not? 28:17.740 --> 28:19.740 Didn't Steven Meithen mention that? 28:19.740 --> 28:21.740 Well, you can't from skulls, 28:21.740 --> 28:23.740 all you've got are skulls. 28:23.740 --> 28:25.740 Oh, you can, no, no, you can. 28:25.740 --> 28:27.740 That's the whole point, 28:27.740 --> 28:29.740 that these skulls have been examined 28:29.740 --> 28:31.740 microscopically by Alexander Marshak 28:31.740 --> 28:33.740 and the changes in the skull, 28:33.740 --> 28:35.740 morphological changes, 28:35.740 --> 28:37.740 exactly divide that particular event, 28:37.740 --> 28:39.740 including the enlargement 28:39.740 --> 28:41.740 of the frontal lobes 28:41.740 --> 28:43.740 which was considered 28:43.740 --> 28:45.740 because of Braka's brain 28:45.740 --> 28:47.740 to be the physiological foundation 28:47.740 --> 28:49.740 for the development of speech 28:49.740 --> 28:51.740 whereas we would say, 28:51.740 --> 28:53.740 probably, I'm guessing 28:53.740 --> 28:55.740 we would agree that 28:55.740 --> 28:57.740 the enlarged brain, 28:57.740 --> 28:59.740 Braka's brain evolved 28:59.740 --> 29:01.740 because as we had already 29:01.740 --> 29:03.740 started speaking 29:03.740 --> 29:05.740 and had the need for more vocabulary, 29:05.740 --> 29:07.740 in terms of hunting, 29:07.740 --> 29:09.740 gathering, escaping large carnivores 29:09.740 --> 29:11.740 and so on. 29:11.740 --> 29:13.740 Anyway, there's 29:13.740 --> 29:15.740 a dichotomy of two different views 29:15.740 --> 29:17.740 about this bifurcation, 29:17.740 --> 29:19.740 the divine intervention one 29:19.740 --> 29:21.740 and the physiological DNA 29:21.740 --> 29:23.740 random mutation natural selection one. 29:23.740 --> 29:25.740 Isn't that it? 29:25.740 --> 29:27.740 And in this dichotomy 29:27.740 --> 29:29.740 we see you opposed 29:29.740 --> 29:31.740 because Terence believes 29:31.740 --> 29:33.740 the eating psilocybin mushrooms 29:33.740 --> 29:35.740 is a purely material explanation 29:35.740 --> 29:37.740 or requires no recourse 29:37.740 --> 29:39.740 to a divine intervention in the field. 29:39.740 --> 29:41.740 Angels, dreams, 29:41.740 --> 29:43.740 you use the word imagination. 29:43.740 --> 29:45.740 But he's not suggesting a literal 29:45.740 --> 29:47.740 divine intervention, 29:47.740 --> 29:49.740 he's just speaking metaphorically. 29:49.740 --> 29:51.740 Mythen's speaking metaphorically, 29:51.740 --> 29:53.740 I think I'm speaking literally. 29:53.740 --> 29:55.740 Because I think, you see, 29:55.740 --> 29:57.740 one of the things we have to explain 29:57.740 --> 29:59.740 is that religion or some sense of a 29:59.740 --> 30:01.740 beyond the human realm 30:01.740 --> 30:03.740 of consciousness is found 30:03.740 --> 30:05.740 in every human culture today. 30:05.740 --> 30:07.740 In some sense, in some way or another, 30:07.740 --> 30:09.740 a world of spirits, a world of angels, 30:09.740 --> 30:11.740 of gods. 30:11.740 --> 30:13.740 But to explain the universal distribution 30:13.740 --> 30:15.740 of this as part of traditional 30:15.740 --> 30:17.740 human thinking 30:17.740 --> 30:19.740 requires at some stage in the past 30:19.740 --> 30:21.740 there had been an awareness 30:21.740 --> 30:23.740 of this other realm of consciousness. 30:23.740 --> 30:25.740 Now, this is not incompatible 30:25.740 --> 30:27.740 with psilocybin or any other drug hypothesis 30:27.740 --> 30:29.740 because those might 30:29.740 --> 30:31.740 have kick-started this 30:31.740 --> 30:33.740 connection with another 30:33.740 --> 30:35.740 realm of consciousness. 30:35.740 --> 30:37.740 But if we assume that today, 30:37.740 --> 30:39.740 all over the world, shamanic cultures 30:39.740 --> 30:41.740 and all other cultures have the sense of 30:41.740 --> 30:43.740 other levels 30:43.740 --> 30:45.740 and other kinds of conscious entities 30:45.740 --> 30:47.740 beyond the human level, 30:47.740 --> 30:49.740 some in animal forms and some in 30:49.740 --> 30:51.740 forms way beyond that, 30:51.740 --> 30:53.740 we have to assume that at some 30:53.740 --> 30:55.740 stage in the past there was a linking 30:55.740 --> 30:57.740 with these other realms of consciousness, 30:57.740 --> 30:59.740 whatever they are. Not just metaphors, 30:59.740 --> 31:01.740 not just archetypes in the collective mind, 31:01.740 --> 31:03.740 but forms of consciousness that might 31:03.740 --> 31:05.740 well, and I think actually are, 31:05.740 --> 31:07.740 a part of that. 31:07.740 --> 31:09.740 Well, in trying to think 31:09.740 --> 31:11.740 conservatively about the 31:11.740 --> 31:13.740 possibility of a non-human 31:13.740 --> 31:15.740 local intelligence, 31:15.740 --> 31:17.740 it seems 31:17.740 --> 31:19.740 to me that in a way 31:19.740 --> 31:21.740 nature herself 31:21.740 --> 31:23.740 presents as an intelligence. 31:23.740 --> 31:25.740 That the understanding of 31:25.740 --> 31:27.740 nature is the 31:27.740 --> 31:29.740 understanding of 31:29.740 --> 31:31.740 complex integrated systems 31:31.740 --> 31:33.740 of such complexity 31:33.740 --> 31:35.740 that to deny them consciousness 31:35.740 --> 31:37.740 is just a reluctance 31:37.740 --> 31:39.740 of the reductionist mind. 31:39.740 --> 31:41.740 That for anyone 31:41.740 --> 31:43.740 not burdened by that prejudice, 31:43.740 --> 31:45.740 it's self-evident 31:45.740 --> 31:47.740 that nature is 31:47.740 --> 31:49.740 alive, cognizant, 31:49.740 --> 31:51.740 responding. 31:51.740 --> 31:53.740 It's interesting 31:53.740 --> 31:55.740 that really all it seems 31:55.740 --> 31:57.740 we can agree upon here 31:57.740 --> 31:59.740 is that the timeframe is 31:59.740 --> 32:01.740 roughly 50,000 years. 32:01.740 --> 32:03.740 Well, so 32:03.740 --> 32:05.740 a whole bunch of things are trying 32:05.740 --> 32:07.740 to be triangulating on that moment. 32:07.740 --> 32:09.740 One could say, as I've argued, 32:09.740 --> 32:11.740 that it was the eating of psilocybin 32:11.740 --> 32:13.740 mushrooms. You could make a more 32:13.740 --> 32:15.740 general statement and say 32:15.740 --> 32:17.740 that was a subset 32:17.740 --> 32:19.740 of the consequence of 32:19.740 --> 32:21.740 an omnivorous diet. 32:21.740 --> 32:23.740 But, if I may, 32:23.740 --> 32:25.740 where exactly 32:25.740 --> 32:27.740 were these mushrooms 100,000 years ago? 32:27.740 --> 32:29.740 Well, 32:29.740 --> 32:31.740 the way I think about it is there was 32:31.740 --> 32:33.740 an incremental involvement 32:33.740 --> 32:35.740 that had 32:35.740 --> 32:37.740 punctuated 32:37.740 --> 32:39.740 breakthroughs in it. In other words, 32:39.740 --> 32:41.740 the slow meeting of 32:41.740 --> 32:43.740 mind, mushroom, 32:43.740 --> 32:45.740 social complexity, 32:45.740 --> 32:47.740 acoustical abilities linked 32:47.740 --> 32:49.740 to neurophysiological states 32:49.740 --> 32:51.740 didn't just smoothly 32:51.740 --> 32:53.740 proceed. It all came together 32:53.740 --> 32:55.740 but then at a certain point it 32:55.740 --> 32:57.740 gelled. And this is 32:57.740 --> 32:59.740 this 50,000 year 32:59.740 --> 33:01.740 point where social 33:01.740 --> 33:03.740 understanding, 33:03.740 --> 33:05.740 technology, 33:05.740 --> 33:07.740 linguistic repertoires, 33:07.740 --> 33:09.740 depth of diet... 33:09.740 --> 33:11.740 We're clinging to this material 33:11.740 --> 33:13.740 stuff. I think it's about 33:13.740 --> 33:15.740 time that we trap you here. Well, there will be a material 33:15.740 --> 33:17.740 component even if you believe 33:17.740 --> 33:19.740 angels descended from on 33:19.740 --> 33:21.740 high. Well, I suppose that 33:21.740 --> 33:23.740 you have the software 33:23.740 --> 33:25.740 that draws the novelty wave. 33:25.740 --> 33:27.740 You're a novelty theorist. 33:27.740 --> 33:29.740 We might appeal to novelty theory as 33:29.740 --> 33:31.740 an explanatory strategy 33:31.740 --> 33:33.740 here, a cognitive strategy in dealing 33:33.740 --> 33:35.740 with the bifurcation 50,000 years ago. 33:35.740 --> 33:37.740 If you run the program back for 33:37.740 --> 33:39.740 100,000 years, do you 33:39.740 --> 33:41.740 or do you not find a kink there in the novelty 33:41.740 --> 33:43.740 wave in 50,000 BC? 33:43.740 --> 33:45.740 No, it's not based on data, 33:45.740 --> 33:47.740 only extrapolation, but is there 33:47.740 --> 33:49.740 or isn't there? Well, I think there were 33:49.740 --> 33:51.740 a series of breakthroughs. For instance, 33:51.740 --> 33:53.740 120,000 33:53.740 --> 33:55.740 years ago, the modern 33:55.740 --> 33:57.740 homo sapiens sapien form 33:57.740 --> 33:59.740 appeared. In other words, 33:59.740 --> 34:01.740 no. In short, no. 34:01.740 --> 34:03.740 There's no... Both and, 34:03.740 --> 34:05.740 I think. 34:05.740 --> 34:07.740 The invention of writing 34:07.740 --> 34:09.740 9,000 years ago 34:09.740 --> 34:11.740 was an enormous 34:11.740 --> 34:13.740 breakthrough. But all of these things 34:13.740 --> 34:15.740 proceed out of the further 34:15.740 --> 34:17.740 integration, complexification 34:17.740 --> 34:19.740 of the nervous system 34:19.740 --> 34:21.740 in connection with 34:21.740 --> 34:23.740 the function of the imagination. 34:23.740 --> 34:25.740 No, but I can't even believe this that you're presenting yourself 34:25.740 --> 34:27.740 as a conventional materialist 34:27.740 --> 34:29.740 evolutionary theorist. 34:33.740 --> 34:35.740 The galactarians who built the mushroom 34:35.740 --> 34:37.740 intended... 34:41.740 --> 34:43.740 This is your pal, your favorite 34:43.740 --> 34:45.740 author. Well, you see, with the mushroom 34:45.740 --> 34:47.740 theory, you can always just say 34:47.740 --> 34:49.740 they encountered the mushroom and then it 34:49.740 --> 34:51.740 proceeded from there. But you can go 34:51.740 --> 34:53.740 one step back and say who placed 34:53.740 --> 34:55.740 the mushroom in their path. Oh, I'll give you a hand there. 34:55.740 --> 34:57.740 I'll give you a hand there. And that was 34:57.740 --> 34:59.740 the preceding civilization 34:59.740 --> 35:01.740 of Lemurians who... 35:01.740 --> 35:03.740 What's wrong 35:03.740 --> 35:05.740 with Lemurians? 35:05.740 --> 35:07.740 They died out at that point because 35:07.740 --> 35:09.740 they had poisoned the environment 35:09.740 --> 35:11.740 with toxic chemicals and created 35:11.740 --> 35:13.740 global climate warming, which resulted in 35:13.740 --> 35:15.740 a drying of the desert, the Sahara 35:15.740 --> 35:17.740 Desert, from which sprung forth 35:17.740 --> 35:19.740 a bloom of 35:19.740 --> 35:21.740 psychedelic mushrooms that had been hiding 35:21.740 --> 35:23.740 under the surface previously because it was too wet. 35:23.740 --> 35:25.740 That's why. The loud 35:25.740 --> 35:27.740 hum I hear 35:27.740 --> 35:29.740 is William of Ockham 35:29.740 --> 35:31.740 spinning in his grave. 35:33.740 --> 35:35.740 I see. 35:35.740 --> 35:37.740 You think that DNA and the expression 35:37.740 --> 35:39.740 of genes is a simpler 35:39.740 --> 35:41.740 explanation than a divine intervention 35:41.740 --> 35:43.740 at the level of the novelty wave. 35:43.740 --> 35:45.740 I think that the DNA 35:45.740 --> 35:47.740 is divine. Ah. 35:47.740 --> 35:49.740 But William 35:49.740 --> 35:51.740 wouldn't like it. Ah, escape 35:51.740 --> 35:53.740 from his 35:53.740 --> 35:55.740 trap. 35:55.740 --> 35:57.740 Rube, what you as a middle 35:57.740 --> 35:59.740 man should do. 36:01.740 --> 36:03.740 I think, you see, I can't quite 36:03.740 --> 36:05.740 get your position because the new 36:05.740 --> 36:07.740 hard-nosed skeptic that you're 36:07.740 --> 36:09.740 revealing to us here and in other places. 36:09.740 --> 36:11.740 You see, it doesn't seem to fit 36:11.740 --> 36:13.740 too well with Terence 36:13.740 --> 36:15.740 McKenna on non-human entities, 36:15.740 --> 36:17.740 machine elves, etc. 36:17.740 --> 36:19.740 I mean, the idea of other kinds of consciousness, 36:19.740 --> 36:21.740 other forms of entity 36:21.740 --> 36:23.740 that are not just inside our 36:23.740 --> 36:25.740 brains and appearing in 36:25.740 --> 36:27.740 relation to deranged states of 36:27.740 --> 36:29.740 mind, pharmacologically induced. 36:29.740 --> 36:31.740 The idea that they're out there seems to me 36:31.740 --> 36:33.740 an essential part of most 36:33.740 --> 36:35.740 of what I've heard you say over many years. 36:35.740 --> 36:37.740 Well, 36:37.740 --> 36:39.740 I'm sort of getting into what I intend 36:39.740 --> 36:41.740 to say later, 36:41.740 --> 36:43.740 but I think the key thing is not to 36:43.740 --> 36:45.740 concentrate on materialist 36:45.740 --> 36:47.740 versus non-materialist 36:47.740 --> 36:49.740 explanations, but to realize 36:49.740 --> 36:51.740 that the new vision of nature 36:51.740 --> 36:53.740 is not as matter 36:53.740 --> 36:55.740 or energy, but as 36:55.740 --> 36:57.740 information. 36:57.740 --> 36:59.740 And information 36:59.740 --> 37:01.740 is expressed in the DNA, it's 37:01.740 --> 37:03.740 expressed epigenetically in 37:03.740 --> 37:05.740 culture. What's happening is that 37:05.740 --> 37:07.740 information was 37:07.740 --> 37:09.740 running itself on a primate 37:09.740 --> 37:11.740 platform, but evolving 37:11.740 --> 37:13.740 according to its own 37:13.740 --> 37:15.740 agenda. In a sense, we have 37:15.740 --> 37:17.740 a symbiotic relationship 37:17.740 --> 37:19.740 to a non-material 37:19.740 --> 37:21.740 being, which we call language. 37:21.740 --> 37:23.740 And we think it's 37:23.740 --> 37:25.740 ours, and we think we control 37:25.740 --> 37:27.740 it. This isn't what's happening. It's 37:27.740 --> 37:29.740 running itself, it's time sharing 37:29.740 --> 37:31.740 a primate nervous 37:31.740 --> 37:33.740 system, and evolving 37:33.740 --> 37:35.740 toward its own conclusion. 37:35.740 --> 37:37.740 Now I've just shot my 37:37.740 --> 37:39.740 talk. 37:39.740 --> 37:41.740 And it's 37:41.740 --> 37:43.740 so early in the morning. Yes, well 37:43.740 --> 37:45.740 this is this damn drug I'm 37:45.740 --> 37:47.740 drinking. 37:49.740 --> 37:51.740 It makes you give it 37:51.740 --> 37:53.740 all away too soon. 37:55.740 --> 37:57.740 But I think, I mean, 37:57.740 --> 37:59.740 the discussion so far has been remarkably 37:59.740 --> 38:01.740 earthbound, and if 38:01.740 --> 38:03.740 we assume that information is not 38:03.740 --> 38:05.740 confined to this planet, 38:05.740 --> 38:07.740 if we, to put it in your information 38:07.740 --> 38:09.740 terminology, if we assume that consciousness 38:09.740 --> 38:11.740 is not limited to the earth, 38:11.740 --> 38:13.740 if we assume that there are not only 38:13.740 --> 38:15.740 conscious beings on other planets, 38:15.740 --> 38:17.740 but also that other elements 38:17.740 --> 38:19.740 of the universe, like stars, 38:19.740 --> 38:21.740 suns, galaxies, may have 38:21.740 --> 38:23.740 minds or consciousness, 38:23.740 --> 38:25.740 which I do assume, 38:25.740 --> 38:27.740 then it becomes 38:27.740 --> 38:29.740 very likely that at some stage 38:29.740 --> 38:31.740 a consciousness on earth could link 38:31.740 --> 38:33.740 somehow with those higher forms of consciousness. 38:33.740 --> 38:35.740 Who knows how? 38:35.740 --> 38:37.740 Maybe by something like 38:37.740 --> 38:39.740 interplanetary telepathy, 38:39.740 --> 38:41.740 something of that kind. So 38:41.740 --> 38:43.740 if there's some link of human consciousness 38:43.740 --> 38:45.740 with other forms of consciousness 38:45.740 --> 38:47.740 in the universe, then when that 38:47.740 --> 38:49.740 contact was established, there would be 38:49.740 --> 38:51.740 a big transition. That 38:51.740 --> 38:53.740 it could have been propelled or kicked off 38:53.740 --> 38:55.740 by drugs, it could 38:55.740 --> 38:57.740 be kicked off by some mutation 38:57.740 --> 38:59.740 that led to more nervous interconnections, 38:59.740 --> 39:01.740 but when it happens, 39:01.740 --> 39:03.740 this connection with other 39:03.740 --> 39:05.740 forms of consciousness would transform 39:05.740 --> 39:07.740 human nature. 39:07.740 --> 39:09.740 Yes. And it would fit with the facts, 39:09.740 --> 39:11.740 because there's a belief in the... 39:11.740 --> 39:13.740 You see, now we're off the planet at last. 39:13.740 --> 39:15.740 Can I remind you, Terence, of a quotation 39:15.740 --> 39:17.740 from the front pages of your first book, 39:17.740 --> 39:19.740 speculating that 39:21.740 --> 39:23.740 mushroom spores are intergalactic 39:23.740 --> 39:25.740 travelers, that they have a 39:25.740 --> 39:27.740 hard case impervious to 39:27.740 --> 39:29.740 ultraviolet rays that enables them 39:29.740 --> 39:31.740 to float on the galactic 39:31.740 --> 39:33.740 wind from planetary system 39:33.740 --> 39:35.740 to planetary system, bringing us 39:35.740 --> 39:37.740 as Rupert suggests, linguistic 39:37.740 --> 39:39.740 communications from other 39:39.740 --> 39:41.740 life forms, 39:41.740 --> 39:43.740 including immaterial 39:43.740 --> 39:45.740 life forms that they've been in 39:45.740 --> 39:47.740 conversation with in the past. I think 39:47.740 --> 39:49.740 that this is an approximate summary 39:49.740 --> 39:51.740 of your preface. But notice 39:51.740 --> 39:53.740 how materialist and 39:53.740 --> 39:55.740 space and time bound 39:55.740 --> 39:57.740 that hypothesis is. 39:57.740 --> 39:59.740 I could agree with everything 39:59.740 --> 40:01.740 Rupert said. I think now our 40:01.740 --> 40:03.740 intellectual tool kit has been 40:03.740 --> 40:05.740 enriched by the virtual 40:05.740 --> 40:07.740 confirmation of the idea 40:07.740 --> 40:09.740 that there is a Bell 40:09.740 --> 40:11.740 type non-local 40:11.740 --> 40:13.740 aspect to the 40:13.740 --> 40:15.740 universe. So I do think we're 40:15.740 --> 40:17.740 in contact with all intelligence 40:17.740 --> 40:19.740 in the universe 40:19.740 --> 40:21.740 through the Bell non-local 40:21.740 --> 40:23.740 connection. But that 40:23.740 --> 40:25.740 means that it has no 40:25.740 --> 40:27.740 historicity, this connection. 40:27.740 --> 40:29.740 It has always been there 40:29.740 --> 40:31.740 complete and entire. 40:31.740 --> 40:33.740 So why there is a sense of 40:33.740 --> 40:35.740 progressing toward it or it 40:35.740 --> 40:37.740 erupting through into normal 40:37.740 --> 40:39.740 earth bound affairs 40:39.740 --> 40:41.740 is not because someone 40:41.740 --> 40:43.740 in the Andromeda Galaxy 40:43.740 --> 40:45.740 makes a decision, now we will 40:45.740 --> 40:47.740 reveal ourselves to the earthlings. 40:47.740 --> 40:49.740 It's that the antenna system 40:49.740 --> 40:51.740 and the nervous system of 40:51.740 --> 40:53.740 the earthlings evolved 40:53.740 --> 40:55.740 through 40:55.740 --> 40:57.740 a point where suddenly this 40:57.740 --> 40:59.740 became self-evident. 40:59.740 --> 41:01.740 Well now we're coming to the question for the first 41:01.740 --> 41:03.740 time in the enlarged 41:03.740 --> 41:05.740 context in which we 41:05.740 --> 41:07.740 have not only 41:07.740 --> 41:09.740 all space but all time 41:09.740 --> 41:11.740 informing us. And here I 41:11.740 --> 41:13.740 may remind you of Father Bede's 41:13.740 --> 41:15.740 letter which is quoted 41:15.740 --> 41:17.740 in the last chapter of our new 41:17.740 --> 41:19.740 book where he challenges us 41:19.740 --> 41:21.740 to consider the mystical element 41:21.740 --> 41:23.740 which he describes as 41:23.740 --> 41:25.740 more or less in the language 41:25.740 --> 41:27.740 of David Bohm's 41:27.740 --> 41:29.740 implicate 41:29.740 --> 41:31.740 order. That all 41:31.740 --> 41:33.740 time and all space 41:33.740 --> 41:35.740 somehow exists as a 41:35.740 --> 41:37.740 interconnected ball of intelligence 41:37.740 --> 41:39.740 which is, let's just assume 41:39.740 --> 41:41.740 such a thing, nevertheless 41:41.740 --> 41:43.740 the science 41:43.740 --> 41:45.740 of our colleagues 41:45.740 --> 41:47.740 is more or less a 41:47.740 --> 41:49.740 true story of evolution 41:49.740 --> 41:51.740 that there was 41:51.740 --> 41:53.740 a change, that language did 41:53.740 --> 41:55.740 come upon us in a certain moment, that 41:55.740 --> 41:57.740 before that moment we didn't speak 41:57.740 --> 41:59.740 afterwards we did 41:59.740 --> 42:01.740 and so the question arises 42:01.740 --> 42:03.740 and I think this is in my interpretation 42:03.740 --> 42:05.740 the question we started with here 42:05.740 --> 42:07.740 how could it be 42:07.740 --> 42:09.740 that with or without a divine intervention 42:09.740 --> 42:11.740 that there is this more or less 42:11.740 --> 42:13.740 linear progress 42:13.740 --> 42:15.740 in human intelligence 42:15.740 --> 42:17.740 culture, capability 42:17.740 --> 42:19.740 tool using and 42:19.740 --> 42:21.740 exponential population 42:21.740 --> 42:23.740 growth that is 42:23.740 --> 42:25.740 correlated without any causal 42:25.740 --> 42:27.740 implication with the descent of the 42:27.740 --> 42:29.740 novelty wave. Why do we have 42:29.740 --> 42:31.740 this peculiar artifact 42:31.740 --> 42:33.740 this is an observational fact 42:33.740 --> 42:35.740 that there is this increase in complexity 42:35.740 --> 42:37.740 in civilization apparently looking 42:37.740 --> 42:39.740 for a 42:39.740 --> 42:41.740 spectacular transformation 42:41.740 --> 42:43.740 which we are associating with the word 42:43.740 --> 42:45.740 millennium now. 42:45.740 --> 42:47.740 What's going on? Well novelty 42:47.740 --> 42:49.740 theory would just say 42:49.740 --> 42:51.740 the universe is a complexity 42:51.740 --> 42:53.740 conserving engine 42:53.740 --> 42:55.740 whatever complexity it achieves 42:55.740 --> 42:57.740 by any means it makes that 42:57.740 --> 42:59.740 the platform for a further 42:59.740 --> 43:01.740 thrust into deeper 43:01.740 --> 43:03.740 complexity. If you don't like 43:03.740 --> 43:05.740 novelty theory... Because the morphogenetic 43:05.740 --> 43:07.740 field never forgets. 43:07.740 --> 43:09.740 It forgets a little but it never 43:09.740 --> 43:11.740 it can be set back 43:11.740 --> 43:13.740 but it can never be set back to zero 43:13.740 --> 43:15.740 and it always once 43:15.740 --> 43:17.740 it gets out of the ditch 43:17.740 --> 43:19.740 it heads back in the same direction 43:19.740 --> 43:21.740 it has a vector 43:21.740 --> 43:23.740 field preference and then 43:23.740 --> 43:25.740 you mentioned David Bohm 43:25.740 --> 43:27.740 his idea of emergent 43:27.740 --> 43:29.740 properties seems to achieve 43:29.740 --> 43:31.740 the same end without a 43:31.740 --> 43:33.740 telos of novelty theory 43:33.740 --> 43:35.740 he simply says when you 43:35.740 --> 43:37.740 complexify a system 43:37.740 --> 43:39.740 new properties will emerge 43:39.740 --> 43:41.740 suddenly and unexpectedly 43:41.740 --> 43:43.740 that couldn't have been 43:43.740 --> 43:45.740 predicted. If you put 43:45.740 --> 43:47.740 emergence theory with novelty 43:47.740 --> 43:49.740 theory you see that the 43:49.740 --> 43:51.740 universe could not but 43:51.740 --> 43:53.740 proceed along the line 43:53.740 --> 43:55.740 of complexification 43:55.740 --> 43:57.740 of morphogenetic expression 43:57.740 --> 43:59.740 density of 43:59.740 --> 44:01.740 connectivity and all the 44:01.740 --> 44:03.740 things that retard entropy 44:03.740 --> 44:05.740 and give rise to in fact 44:05.740 --> 44:07.740 the complex non-entropic 44:07.740 --> 44:09.740 ordered 44:09.740 --> 44:11.740 apparently teleologically 44:11.740 --> 44:13.740 informed cosmos that we're in. 44:13.740 --> 44:15.740 Well now we see then that 44:15.740 --> 44:17.740 what you've 44:17.740 --> 44:19.740 described is... Why do you laugh? 44:21.740 --> 44:23.740 It was one of those verbs was a bit 44:23.740 --> 44:25.740 extraordinary. Okay. 44:25.740 --> 44:27.740 That there is then 44:27.740 --> 44:29.740 revealed a kind of 44:29.740 --> 44:31.740 evolutionary theory as 44:31.740 --> 44:33.740 a cosmological hypothesis 44:33.740 --> 44:35.740 this is a theological 44:35.740 --> 44:37.740 position basically. 44:37.740 --> 44:39.740 It's a teleological position. 44:39.740 --> 44:41.740 Timeless implicate order 44:41.740 --> 44:43.740 and there is life on planet earth 44:43.740 --> 44:45.740 and in the rest of the universe 44:45.740 --> 44:47.740 which 44:47.740 --> 44:49.740 evolves according to 44:49.740 --> 44:51.740 this theoretical rule 44:51.740 --> 44:53.740 by an increase of complexity 44:53.740 --> 44:55.740 when something is revealed 44:55.740 --> 44:57.740 there's a development it's not 44:57.740 --> 44:59.740 forgotten it builds upon that 44:59.740 --> 45:01.740 and this 45:01.740 --> 45:03.740 mystical unit 45:03.740 --> 45:05.740 while knowing all is not 45:05.740 --> 45:07.740 telling all but revealing gradually 45:07.740 --> 45:09.740 because just that's the law 45:09.740 --> 45:11.740 of life as we know it. 45:11.740 --> 45:13.740 In three dimensional space and time. 45:13.740 --> 45:15.740 With Rupert and I 45:15.740 --> 45:17.740 really from my point of view 45:17.740 --> 45:19.740 the only difference between 45:19.740 --> 45:21.740 the morphogenetic field that he 45:21.740 --> 45:23.740 has enthusiastically 45:23.740 --> 45:25.740 proposed and the ideas 45:25.740 --> 45:27.740 of novelty theory is 45:27.740 --> 45:29.740 for Rupert it's 45:29.740 --> 45:31.740 pushed from the past for me 45:31.740 --> 45:33.740 it's pulled from the future. 45:33.740 --> 45:35.740 Well that's what Teddy was saying in this book. 45:35.740 --> 45:37.740 Well but what you get 45:37.740 --> 45:39.740 in the end of the day is the same 45:39.740 --> 45:41.740 thing it's just a matter of preference 45:41.740 --> 45:43.740 and how much of orthodoxy 45:43.740 --> 45:45.740 you want to grind against. 45:45.740 --> 45:47.740 The 45:47.740 --> 45:49.740 phobia against telos 45:49.740 --> 45:51.740 is an artifact of 45:51.740 --> 45:53.740 19th century deism and doesn't 45:53.740 --> 45:55.740 go very deep. 45:55.740 --> 45:57.740 You described 45:57.740 --> 45:59.740 the complexification of the universe 45:59.740 --> 46:01.740 as self evident and I believe 46:01.740 --> 46:03.740 it is self evident and the failure 46:03.740 --> 46:05.740 of science to 46:05.740 --> 46:07.740 address this is what makes it 46:07.740 --> 46:09.740 so frustrating and imprecise 46:09.740 --> 46:11.740 so late in the game. 46:11.740 --> 46:13.740 But the trouble with the emergence 46:13.740 --> 46:15.740 view you've been putting forward 46:15.740 --> 46:17.740 is that it's still very 46:17.740 --> 46:19.740 earthbound. You see there's obviously been a major 46:19.740 --> 46:21.740 emergence of complexity in human culture. 46:21.740 --> 46:23.740 There's also been a huge 46:23.740 --> 46:25.740 emergence of complexity in the Amazon jungle 46:25.740 --> 46:27.740 and the Malayan rainforest. 46:27.740 --> 46:29.740 Arguably far greater 46:29.740 --> 46:31.740 than anything we've achieved through technology 46:31.740 --> 46:33.740 and millions of species of beetles 46:33.740 --> 46:35.740 insects, plants and so forth. 46:35.740 --> 46:37.740 But it seems 46:37.740 --> 46:39.740 to me that long before all these things 46:39.740 --> 46:41.740 happened on earth we've got the possibility 46:41.740 --> 46:43.740 of much higher levels of consciousness 46:43.740 --> 46:45.740 outside the earth. And as you know I'm a 46:45.740 --> 46:47.740 devotee of the idea of the sun as 46:47.740 --> 46:49.740 conscious. 46:51.740 --> 46:53.740 And the stars. 46:53.740 --> 46:55.740 If you take the materialist 46:55.740 --> 46:57.740 view that consciousness interfaces with the brain 46:57.740 --> 46:59.740 through complex electromagnetic 46:59.740 --> 47:01.740 patterns of activity then 47:01.740 --> 47:03.740 those on the sun which we're learning 47:03.740 --> 47:05.740 more and more about every day 47:05.740 --> 47:07.740 have unbelievably 47:07.740 --> 47:09.740 complex chaotic 47:09.740 --> 47:11.740 patterns, resonant patterns 47:11.740 --> 47:13.740 of acoustic waves going through the sun 47:13.740 --> 47:15.740 polar reversals 47:15.740 --> 47:17.740 every 11 years 47:17.740 --> 47:19.740 resonant patterns of electromagnetic 47:19.740 --> 47:21.740 waves. My thinking 47:21.740 --> 47:23.740 about this was much influenced by 47:23.740 --> 47:25.740 a science fiction novel by Fred Hoyle 47:25.740 --> 47:27.740 published in the 50s called The Black 47:27.740 --> 47:29.740 Cloud. Where Fred Hoyle 47:29.740 --> 47:31.740 shows that to imagine 47:31.740 --> 47:33.740 intelligence necessarily 47:33.740 --> 47:35.740 grounded either in copper water 47:35.740 --> 47:37.740 wires and computers or in nerve cells 47:37.740 --> 47:39.740 and brains is a limitation of 47:39.740 --> 47:41.740 this. You could have an intelligence system 47:41.740 --> 47:43.740 working through a plasma 47:43.740 --> 47:45.740 an electrically charged cloud 47:45.740 --> 47:47.740 and indeed I think through something 47:47.740 --> 47:49.740 like the sun. So if the 47:49.740 --> 47:51.740 sun is in fact conscious 47:51.740 --> 47:53.740 if stars have a kind of consciousness 47:53.740 --> 47:55.740 then of course it raises 47:55.740 --> 47:57.740 questions well what do they think about 47:57.740 --> 47:59.740 and what do they do with this consciousness 47:59.740 --> 48:01.740 but it's very likely that the kind of 48:01.740 --> 48:03.740 consciousness they have would be at a vastly 48:03.740 --> 48:05.740 higher level than our own. 48:05.740 --> 48:07.740 So when we're talking about the emergence 48:07.740 --> 48:09.740 of higher consciousness in human beings 48:09.740 --> 48:11.740 it's not as if for the first time in the 48:11.740 --> 48:13.740 universe some higher level of consciousness 48:13.740 --> 48:15.740 emerges. It could be 48:15.740 --> 48:17.740 that for the first time in 48:17.740 --> 48:19.740 the history of the solar system 48:19.740 --> 48:21.740 our minds somehow 48:21.740 --> 48:23.740 contact the sort of 48:23.740 --> 48:25.740 intelligence, much greater intelligence 48:25.740 --> 48:27.740 that exists out there. 48:27.740 --> 48:29.740 And because I think it's possible 48:29.740 --> 48:31.740 to think of the stars and the sun as 48:31.740 --> 48:33.740 conscious and then galaxies as conscious 48:33.740 --> 48:35.740 you don't need 48:35.740 --> 48:37.740 to go straight beyond the universe to 48:37.740 --> 48:39.740 the divine mind. There's plenty of 48:39.740 --> 48:41.740 lower level minds than the divine 48:41.740 --> 48:43.740 mind that could be out there. 48:43.740 --> 48:45.740 And of course traditional views of 48:45.740 --> 48:47.740 spirits and angels tell us that 48:47.740 --> 48:49.740 there are many, many, many innumerable 48:49.740 --> 48:51.740 levels of intelligence beyond our 48:51.740 --> 48:53.740 own within the galaxy. Many associated 48:53.740 --> 48:55.740 with the stars. 48:55.740 --> 48:57.740 So we don't necessarily have to 48:57.740 --> 48:59.740 have the idea it's all happened and emerged 48:59.740 --> 49:01.740 on earth through a complexification. 49:01.740 --> 49:03.740 We can have the thing we reach a point 49:03.740 --> 49:05.740 where there's like a spark 49:05.740 --> 49:07.740 between two classes. Between 49:07.740 --> 49:09.740 a terrestrial consciousness, a human one 49:09.740 --> 49:11.740 with more interconnected halves of the brain 49:11.740 --> 49:13.740 people in the first 49:13.740 --> 49:15.740 first throes 49:15.740 --> 49:17.740 of mind-boggling 49:17.740 --> 49:19.740 mushroom trip, etc. But somehow 49:19.740 --> 49:21.740 whatever happens, there's this 49:21.740 --> 49:23.740 like a spark, a connection established. 49:23.740 --> 49:25.740 And it seems to me that this hypothesis 49:25.740 --> 49:27.740 has the great advantage 49:27.740 --> 49:29.740 of actually accounting for what's believed 49:29.740 --> 49:31.740 all around the world. Namely that there is 49:31.740 --> 49:33.740 some connection between human intelligence 49:33.740 --> 49:35.740 and that of the sky. 49:35.740 --> 49:37.740 Because in terms of imagination 49:37.740 --> 49:39.740 you see predators and 49:39.740 --> 49:41.740 human beings 49:41.740 --> 49:43.740 were both predators and prey 49:43.740 --> 49:45.740 but so are lots of other animals. 49:45.740 --> 49:47.740 And presumably any hunting animal 49:47.740 --> 49:49.740 has to have the imagination and the ability 49:49.740 --> 49:51.740 to identify with the prey. 49:51.740 --> 49:53.740 In fact, René Tom years ago 49:53.740 --> 49:55.740 produced a mathematical model of predator 49:55.740 --> 49:57.740 and prey where there has to be a kind 49:57.740 --> 49:59.740 of internalization of the prey 49:59.740 --> 50:01.740 in the predator's mind in order to get 50:01.740 --> 50:03.740 the right strategy. This is not specifically 50:03.740 --> 50:05.740 human. And it's not enough 50:05.740 --> 50:07.740 as a basis of the imagination. 50:07.740 --> 50:09.740 I think this connection with realms 50:09.740 --> 50:11.740 beyond the human would give such an 50:11.740 --> 50:13.740 enlarged scope for imagination 50:13.740 --> 50:15.740 that to take 50:15.740 --> 50:17.740 literally what so 50:17.740 --> 50:19.740 many people around the world say in their myths 50:19.740 --> 50:21.740 seems to me the simplest hypothesis. 50:23.740 --> 50:25.740 Well, I'm more friendly 50:25.740 --> 50:27.740 to this idea of non- 50:27.740 --> 50:29.740 biologically based forms of 50:29.740 --> 50:31.740 consciousness than I was the last 50:31.740 --> 50:33.740 time we talked 50:33.740 --> 50:35.740 because of 50:35.740 --> 50:37.740 this fact I mentioned 50:37.740 --> 50:39.740 that I now think wherever there is 50:39.740 --> 50:41.740 a sufficiently complex 50:41.740 --> 50:43.740 informational 50:43.740 --> 50:45.740 environment, the functions of 50:45.740 --> 50:47.740 life, self-replication, etc., 50:47.740 --> 50:49.740 etc., mutation, 50:49.740 --> 50:51.740 adaptation, can 50:51.740 --> 50:53.740 go on. 50:53.740 --> 50:55.740 But obviously most of the 50:55.740 --> 50:57.740 intelligence in the universe 50:57.740 --> 50:59.740 would be utterly 50:59.740 --> 51:01.740 incomprehensible to us because 51:01.740 --> 51:03.740 it is so different. 51:03.740 --> 51:05.740 So we're transducing 51:05.740 --> 51:07.740 virtually the entire 51:07.740 --> 51:09.740 hologram of possible 51:09.740 --> 51:11.740 intelligence in the universe. 51:11.740 --> 51:13.740 But the reason our fantasies 51:13.740 --> 51:15.740 of angels and aliens 51:15.740 --> 51:17.740 give us hominids with 51:17.740 --> 51:19.740 binocular vision who use 51:19.740 --> 51:21.740 acoustical speech, in other words 51:21.740 --> 51:23.740 creatures very similar 51:23.740 --> 51:25.740 to ourselves, is because 51:25.740 --> 51:27.740 we only can recognize 51:27.740 --> 51:29.740 what is familiar 51:29.740 --> 51:31.740 in this universal 51:31.740 --> 51:33.740 information field. So we 51:33.740 --> 51:35.740 sail right past the star 51:35.740 --> 51:37.740 mind, the galaxy mind, 51:37.740 --> 51:39.740 to communicate with 51:39.740 --> 51:41.740 a race of winged hominids 51:41.740 --> 51:43.740 around Zenebel-Ganubi prime 51:43.740 --> 51:45.740 simply because 51:45.740 --> 51:47.740 they are enough like us that 51:47.740 --> 51:49.740 we can grok our 51:49.740 --> 51:51.740 possibility of a relationship. 51:51.740 --> 51:53.740 It seems 51:53.740 --> 51:55.740 to me that this is just very 51:55.740 --> 51:57.740 begging the question in 51:57.740 --> 51:59.740 traditional and cheap fashion 51:59.740 --> 52:01.740 because... Oh good, Ralph. 52:03.740 --> 52:05.740 I mean, I'm all 52:05.740 --> 52:07.740 in favor of 52:07.740 --> 52:09.740 celestial intelligence and in 52:09.740 --> 52:11.740 fact I could even entertain a 52:11.740 --> 52:13.740 conversation with a Pleiadian 52:13.740 --> 52:15.740 I don't mind. 52:15.740 --> 52:17.740 But the question, I mean we started 52:17.740 --> 52:19.740 with the problem of 52:19.740 --> 52:21.740 evolution, the evolutionary mind 52:21.740 --> 52:23.740 is in fact the title of our book 52:23.740 --> 52:25.740 and the question of the evolution, 52:25.740 --> 52:27.740 the progress, or even the 52:27.740 --> 52:29.740 origin of all these things is 52:29.740 --> 52:31.740 our ultimate question. Now if 52:31.740 --> 52:33.740 our view is local to planet Earth 52:33.740 --> 52:35.740 we can say, okay, we're being 52:35.740 --> 52:37.740 sent by bolts from the blue and we 52:37.740 --> 52:39.740 have these, you know, meddling 52:39.740 --> 52:41.740 celestial intelligence that are reaching out 52:41.740 --> 52:43.740 pretend to be Bell and tell us Bell's 52:43.740 --> 52:45.740 theorem, give us mushrooms, pretend to 52:45.740 --> 52:47.740 be sent from the solar wind 52:47.740 --> 52:49.740 or whatever. But where 52:49.740 --> 52:51.740 do they come from? The evolutionary 52:51.740 --> 52:53.740 problem then is just transferred 52:53.740 --> 52:55.740 onto another more remote place. 52:55.740 --> 52:57.740 Now as I understand 52:57.740 --> 52:59.740 Rupert's idea of the morphogenetic 52:59.740 --> 53:01.740 field is that these other places are also 53:01.740 --> 53:03.740 in evolution and the whole system is in 53:03.740 --> 53:05.740 coevolution and that is an attempt 53:05.740 --> 53:07.740 I think one of the first ones 53:07.740 --> 53:09.740 in the 53:09.740 --> 53:11.740 history of intelligent 53:11.740 --> 53:13.740 discourse on this subject 53:13.740 --> 53:15.740 the first attempt to 53:15.740 --> 53:17.740 get rid of the 53:17.740 --> 53:19.740 hypothesis of 53:19.740 --> 53:21.740 timeless 53:21.740 --> 53:23.740 truth. But if you get rid 53:23.740 --> 53:25.740 of that hypothesis you have a whole bunch 53:25.740 --> 53:27.740 of weird problems 53:27.740 --> 53:29.740 such as then you have to talk about 53:29.740 --> 53:31.740 the speed of propagation 53:31.740 --> 53:33.740 of novelty or 53:33.740 --> 53:35.740 morphogenetic fields and then 53:35.740 --> 53:37.740 you're slammed to the wall because you have to either 53:37.740 --> 53:39.740 come up with a number which you fit into 53:39.740 --> 53:41.740 a mathematical architecture 53:41.740 --> 53:43.740 or you say 53:43.740 --> 53:45.740 that it's instantaneous 53:45.740 --> 53:47.740 which returns you to this 53:47.740 --> 53:49.740 holistic more metaphysical 53:49.740 --> 53:51.740 thing. If you don't 53:51.740 --> 53:53.740 believe that it's coming from the Bell 53:53.740 --> 53:55.740 space then you have a whole 53:55.740 --> 53:57.740 bunch of these kinds of problems which I 53:57.740 --> 53:59.740 think intuitively 53:59.740 --> 54:01.740 make it too complicated. 54:01.740 --> 54:03.740 Let it be instantaneous. 54:03.740 --> 54:05.740 I mean I think the whole question of 54:05.740 --> 54:07.740 time is in fact 54:07.740 --> 54:09.740 behind this problem that we have this idea 54:09.740 --> 54:11.740 about time and then 54:11.740 --> 54:13.740 we're trying to talk about a timeless. 54:13.740 --> 54:15.740 So one way to eliminate this 54:15.740 --> 54:17.740 cognitive dissonance 54:17.740 --> 54:19.740 is to say okay there is no timeless 54:19.740 --> 54:21.740 it's all in coevolution and 54:21.740 --> 54:23.740 we're a little bit behind the evolution of 54:23.740 --> 54:25.740 the Pleiadians and then well 54:25.740 --> 54:27.740 where does that come from? We're stuck 54:27.740 --> 54:29.740 with the problem. So you I think 54:29.740 --> 54:31.740 you're talking of 54:31.740 --> 54:33.740 the attractor at the end of time 54:33.740 --> 54:35.740 is more or less the beyond 54:35.740 --> 54:37.740 time is the intelligence that it 54:37.740 --> 54:39.740 informs 54:39.740 --> 54:41.740 that nourishes the accumulation 54:41.740 --> 54:43.740 of complexity as we go 54:43.740 --> 54:45.740 along apparently 54:45.740 --> 54:47.740 in time. Well I think 54:47.740 --> 54:49.740 the attractor is complete in and 54:49.740 --> 54:51.740 of itself in another dimension 54:51.740 --> 54:53.740 the process of history and 54:53.740 --> 54:55.740 biological evolution is 54:55.740 --> 54:57.740 the growing complex enough 54:57.740 --> 54:59.740 to grow toward 54:59.740 --> 55:01.740 the thing and understand it. 55:01.740 --> 55:03.740 So is our process 55:03.740 --> 55:05.740 of growth then nourished or not 55:05.740 --> 55:07.740 nourished by some 55:07.740 --> 55:09.740 flow of something that comes from this 55:09.740 --> 55:11.740 attractor at the end of time in another 55:11.740 --> 55:13.740 dimension? It contributes 55:13.740 --> 55:15.740 the trajectory of our 55:15.740 --> 55:17.740 approach. It defines the 55:17.740 --> 55:19.740 the domain in 55:19.740 --> 55:21.740 which we are moving toward 55:21.740 --> 55:23.740 it. We couldn't even talk this without 55:23.740 --> 55:25.740 chaos theory. No chaos theory 55:25.740 --> 55:27.740 stands behind this 55:27.740 --> 55:29.740 very 55:29.740 --> 55:31.740 powerful. Well I don't know Ralph people 55:31.740 --> 55:33.740 have been talking about this for a long time 55:33.740 --> 55:35.740 before chaos theory came along. 55:35.740 --> 55:37.740 But in such a muddled fashion. 55:37.740 --> 55:39.740 Compared 55:39.740 --> 55:41.740 with the sublime clarity 55:41.740 --> 55:43.740 of our present conclusion. 55:43.740 --> 55:45.740 Precisely. 55:47.740 --> 55:49.740 So I don't 55:49.740 --> 55:51.740 quite see why chaos theory is an essential 55:51.740 --> 55:53.740 ingredient. Forget chaos theory. 55:53.740 --> 55:55.740 I'm 55:55.740 --> 55:57.740 interested in the possibility that 55:57.740 --> 55:59.740 in your deepest musings 55:59.740 --> 56:01.740 on this problem you have rather 56:01.740 --> 56:03.740 avoided Father Bede's challenge 56:03.740 --> 56:05.740 to grapple with infinity 56:05.740 --> 56:07.740 and that in 56:07.740 --> 56:09.740 the idea of the 56:09.740 --> 56:11.740 coevolution of morphogenetic fields 56:11.740 --> 56:13.740 begs the question of the existence 56:13.740 --> 56:15.740 of a timeless or eternal 56:15.740 --> 56:17.740 truth, pattern, guidance 56:17.740 --> 56:19.740 or something which is 56:19.740 --> 56:21.740 well. 56:21.740 --> 56:23.740 But are you, I mean 56:23.740 --> 56:25.740 Father Bede used the word mystical 56:25.740 --> 56:27.740 but of course he was a priest. 56:27.740 --> 56:29.740 I don't think he meant the 56:29.740 --> 56:31.740 essentially 56:31.740 --> 56:33.740 incomprehensible. In other words 56:33.740 --> 56:35.740 I don't think we're going to get to a place where we 56:35.740 --> 56:37.740 then say from here on it is 56:37.740 --> 56:39.740 mystery and rational 56:39.740 --> 56:41.740 apprehension fails. 56:41.740 --> 56:43.740 My notion of the mystical 56:43.740 --> 56:45.740 is simply that which 56:45.740 --> 56:47.740 remains to be understood and 56:47.740 --> 56:49.740 there will always be a 56:49.740 --> 56:51.740 residuum of mystery in 56:51.740 --> 56:53.740 principle. But in principle 56:53.740 --> 56:55.740 it is not mysterious. 56:55.740 --> 56:57.740 No I think, I don't 56:57.740 --> 56:59.740 agree with that I must say. I thought you might not. 57:01.740 --> 57:03.740 Well 57:03.740 --> 57:05.740 well we'd soon be out of 57:05.740 --> 57:07.740 business if we're talking at the edge of the unthinkable 57:07.740 --> 57:09.740 if we actually, everything 57:09.740 --> 57:11.740 suddenly becomes thinkable. 57:13.740 --> 57:15.740 Even in principle? 57:17.740 --> 57:19.740 I think that given the nature of a human 57:19.740 --> 57:21.740 mind evolved to deal with large 57:21.740 --> 57:23.740 predators hunting on African 57:23.740 --> 57:25.740 plains, gathering herbs 57:25.740 --> 57:27.740 etc. 57:27.740 --> 57:29.740 Dealing with social problems 57:29.740 --> 57:31.740 human relationships etc. 57:31.740 --> 57:33.740 The idea that this evolution has equipped us 57:33.740 --> 57:35.740 with minds and language 57:35.740 --> 57:37.740 and cognitive abilities that enable 57:37.740 --> 57:39.740 us to comprehend the entire universe 57:39.740 --> 57:41.740 where it's come from, where it's going 57:41.740 --> 57:43.740 what minds and mind 57:43.740 --> 57:45.740 may lie beyond what we see. 57:45.740 --> 57:47.740 The idea that this very 57:47.740 --> 57:49.740 small part of the evolutionary 57:49.740 --> 57:51.740 system with all the limitations 57:51.740 --> 57:53.740 inherent in it could comprehend the 57:53.740 --> 57:55.740 whole seems to me 57:55.740 --> 57:57.740 a rather improbable 57:57.740 --> 57:59.740 supposition. And I think that 57:59.740 --> 58:01.740 the point about mysticism or 58:01.740 --> 58:03.740 what the Greek church calls 58:03.740 --> 58:05.740 apophatic, the apophatic 58:05.740 --> 58:07.740 is that the ultimate 58:07.740 --> 58:09.740 in the end does lie beyond 58:09.740 --> 58:11.740 what we can think. Our thinking 58:11.740 --> 58:13.740 can only take us so far. And this 58:13.740 --> 58:15.740 isn't just because we haven't got enough professors 58:15.740 --> 58:17.740 of mathematics yet or 58:17.740 --> 58:19.740 it's only a matter of bigger computers 58:19.740 --> 58:21.740 and so forth. There are grave 58:21.740 --> 58:23.740 limits on how far 58:23.740 --> 58:25.740 a very limited and evolutionary 58:25.740 --> 58:27.740 bound conceptual apparatus can take us. 58:27.740 --> 58:29.740 We'd never be able to 58:29.740 --> 58:31.740 embrace, as you yourself pointed out 58:31.740 --> 58:33.740 the kind of mentality of the 58:33.740 --> 58:35.740 sun or a galaxy because it's concerned 58:35.740 --> 58:37.740 to so much greater and more remote 58:37.740 --> 58:39.740 than our own. Let alone the universe 58:39.740 --> 58:41.740 as a whole. But in principle 58:41.740 --> 58:43.740 some other form of organization 58:43.740 --> 58:45.740 could. In other words these things are 58:45.740 --> 58:47.740 not sealed from 58:47.740 --> 58:49.740 understanding. In 58:49.740 --> 58:51.740 principle they are simply 58:51.740 --> 58:53.740 difficult for primate 58:53.740 --> 58:55.740 based minds running 58:55.740 --> 58:57.740 limited software at low 58:57.740 --> 58:59.740 hertz rate to 58:59.740 --> 59:01.740 accommodate. 59:01.740 --> 59:03.740 Yes, but I mean if 59:03.740 --> 59:05.740 presumably the solar mind 59:05.740 --> 59:07.740 if there is one, could 59:07.740 --> 59:09.740 understand, have a pretty good intuitive 59:09.740 --> 59:11.740 understanding of the minds of other 59:11.740 --> 59:13.740 suns. I mean if 59:13.740 --> 59:15.740 the sun has a mind, part of its 59:15.740 --> 59:17.740 activity I think would be concerned with the 59:17.740 --> 59:19.740 solar system. It would be like the 59:19.740 --> 59:21.740 brain of the solar system. But 59:21.740 --> 59:23.740 part of its activity would be concerned with its 59:23.740 --> 59:25.740 peer group, namely other stars. 59:25.740 --> 59:27.740 And 59:27.740 --> 59:29.740 then part of their activity 59:29.740 --> 59:31.740 would be related to the 59:31.740 --> 59:33.740 mind or purpose or 59:33.740 --> 59:35.740 telos of the entire galaxy. 59:35.740 --> 59:37.740 And those kinds of concerns 59:37.740 --> 59:39.740 you know, the kind of relationship 59:39.740 --> 59:41.740 problems that our sun may be having 59:41.740 --> 59:43.740 with other suns. 59:43.740 --> 59:45.740 Or double star systems like that 59:45.740 --> 59:47.740 of Sirius. The kind of 59:47.740 --> 59:49.740 relationship problems. 59:51.740 --> 59:53.740 Those are rather beyond 59:53.740 --> 59:55.740 the scope of human psychotherapy 59:55.740 --> 59:57.740 or indeed 59:57.740 --> 59:59.740 human thought. There may be so 59:59.740 --> 01:00:01.740 many things going on as indeed there 01:00:01.740 --> 01:00:03.740 are at levels we 01:00:03.740 --> 01:00:05.740 don't really understand very well the world 01:00:05.740 --> 01:00:07.740 of the goldfish or the ant. 01:00:07.740 --> 01:00:09.740 So there are 01:00:09.740 --> 01:00:11.740 certain limitations which I don't 01:00:11.740 --> 01:00:13.740 think are just a temporary 01:00:13.740 --> 01:00:15.740 limitation on what we can conceive 01:00:15.740 --> 01:00:17.740 or imagine. Well then 01:00:17.740 --> 01:00:19.740 until we run out of 01:00:19.740 --> 01:00:21.740 energy to conceive and imagine, are we 01:00:21.740 --> 01:00:23.740 conceiving of the solar 01:00:23.740 --> 01:00:25.740 mind if it exists as 01:00:25.740 --> 01:00:27.740 evolving or fixed? 01:00:27.740 --> 01:00:29.740 No, it must evolve. It must evolve 01:00:29.740 --> 01:00:31.740 perhaps on a different time scale which 01:00:31.740 --> 01:00:33.740 is the time scale of relationship in their 01:00:33.740 --> 01:00:35.740 own community. Yes. 01:00:35.740 --> 01:00:37.740 Which is the 15 billion 01:00:37.740 --> 01:00:39.740 year time frame 01:00:39.740 --> 01:00:41.740 since the Big Bang. Is that what you're thinking 01:00:41.740 --> 01:00:43.740 that we're coming to the crux of it here? 01:00:43.740 --> 01:00:45.740 I think the evolution 01:00:45.740 --> 01:00:47.740 of the solar mind would be related 01:00:47.740 --> 01:00:49.740 to what happens here because 01:00:49.740 --> 01:00:51.740 we're part of the solar system. 01:00:51.740 --> 01:00:53.740 And I would assume that because all planets 01:00:53.740 --> 01:00:55.740 and everything that's happening within the solar system 01:00:55.740 --> 01:00:57.740 feeds back and influences the 01:00:57.740 --> 01:00:59.740 solar mind that it would somehow, it's not 01:00:59.740 --> 01:01:01.740 just the mind of the sun, it's the mind of the 01:01:01.740 --> 01:01:03.740 solar system. But it's evolving since 01:01:03.740 --> 01:01:05.740 the birth of the Milky Way 01:01:05.740 --> 01:01:07.740 and the Roman candle. That's right. 01:01:07.740 --> 01:01:09.740 What's going on here is part of its evolution. 01:01:09.740 --> 01:01:11.740 We're within it 01:01:11.740 --> 01:01:13.740 and contributing to it. 01:01:13.740 --> 01:01:15.740 So the morphogenetic 01:01:15.740 --> 01:01:17.740 field then of the all and everything had 01:01:17.740 --> 01:01:19.740 a birth moment with the 01:01:19.740 --> 01:01:21.740 Big Bang. Is that what you're thinking? 01:01:21.740 --> 01:01:23.740 Well I'm assuming that if we take 01:01:23.740 --> 01:01:25.740 the Big Bang theory to 01:01:25.740 --> 01:01:27.740 be, if we assume there was a Big Bang 01:01:27.740 --> 01:01:29.740 I know you're very skeptical about the Big Bang 01:01:29.740 --> 01:01:31.740 it's only a story. It's a myth. 01:01:31.740 --> 01:01:33.740 But if we take this creation myth of 01:01:33.740 --> 01:01:35.740 modern science then that must be the 01:01:35.740 --> 01:01:37.740 path of the field of the whole system. 01:01:37.740 --> 01:01:39.740 Yes. 01:01:39.740 --> 01:01:41.740 And modern physics in 01:01:41.740 --> 01:01:43.740 the unified field theory, super string 01:01:43.740 --> 01:01:45.740 theory tries to explain how 01:01:45.740 --> 01:01:47.740 you start with a unified ten dimensional 01:01:47.740 --> 01:01:49.740 field that then evolves 01:01:49.740 --> 01:01:51.740 the other fields of nature within it. 01:01:51.740 --> 01:01:53.740 So we thought that's standard physics. 01:01:53.740 --> 01:01:55.740 I mean it's not part of my 01:01:55.740 --> 01:01:57.740 particular view of things. 01:01:57.740 --> 01:01:59.740 But the consciousness of this all and everything 01:01:59.740 --> 01:02:01.740 I mean the solar 01:02:01.740 --> 01:02:03.740 minds contribute to the 01:02:03.740 --> 01:02:05.740 consciousness of the Milky Way which is one 01:02:05.740 --> 01:02:07.740 galaxy which then has 01:02:07.740 --> 01:02:09.740 the psychotherapist in its relationship with 01:02:09.740 --> 01:02:11.740 the nearby galaxy. Yes and the galactic 01:02:11.740 --> 01:02:13.740 cluster. And actually there's a 01:02:13.740 --> 01:02:15.740 synchrony of thought 01:02:15.740 --> 01:02:17.740 due to the fact that Bell's theorem connects 01:02:17.740 --> 01:02:19.740 them from the Big Bang and so on. 01:02:19.740 --> 01:02:21.740 But isn't all you're 01:02:21.740 --> 01:02:23.740 saying is that the universe is a 01:02:23.740 --> 01:02:25.740 modular hierarchy from 01:02:25.740 --> 01:02:27.740 atom through cells 01:02:27.740 --> 01:02:29.740 societies. I'm challenging 01:02:29.740 --> 01:02:31.740 you to answer where the morphogenesis 01:02:31.740 --> 01:02:33.740 comes from that leads to 01:02:33.740 --> 01:02:35.740 complexity and things like the birth of 01:02:35.740 --> 01:02:37.740 life if it's simply the 01:02:37.740 --> 01:02:39.740 coevolution of a physical 01:02:39.740 --> 01:02:41.740 system since the Big Bang. 01:02:41.740 --> 01:02:43.740 Novelty theory has answered this 01:02:43.740 --> 01:02:45.740 question. 01:02:45.740 --> 01:02:47.740 It comes from the future. To the satisfaction of your 01:02:47.740 --> 01:02:49.740 mind and all smaller. 01:02:53.740 --> 01:02:55.740 Well at least to the satisfaction 01:02:55.740 --> 01:02:57.740 of someone. 01:02:59.740 --> 01:03:01.740 But it doesn't explain 01:03:01.740 --> 01:03:03.740 either the origin of the novelty wave itself 01:03:03.740 --> 01:03:05.740 nor does it 01:03:05.740 --> 01:03:07.740 you see there are many models 01:03:07.740 --> 01:03:09.740 of course of cosmic evolution 01:03:09.740 --> 01:03:11.740 and one of them is that 01:03:11.740 --> 01:03:13.740 because you have the cosmic expansion 01:03:13.740 --> 01:03:15.740 that for some reason 01:03:15.740 --> 01:03:17.740 the primal explosion 01:03:17.740 --> 01:03:19.740 Big Bang throws everything apart 01:03:19.740 --> 01:03:21.740 so it's all moving apart. That means things 01:03:21.740 --> 01:03:23.740 cool down. As they cool down more 01:03:23.740 --> 01:03:25.740 form and order can appear and 01:03:25.740 --> 01:03:27.740 it literally makes more space for things 01:03:27.740 --> 01:03:29.740 to happen in. That the driving the 01:03:29.740 --> 01:03:31.740 arrow of time, the arrow of evolutionary 01:03:31.740 --> 01:03:33.740 time and the driving engine of evolution 01:03:33.740 --> 01:03:35.740 is the cosmic expansion 01:03:35.740 --> 01:03:37.740 which means nothing can ever be stable 01:03:37.740 --> 01:03:39.740 can ever stay the same because the whole 01:03:39.740 --> 01:03:41.740 cosmos is unstable. It's always expanding 01:03:41.740 --> 01:03:43.740 and cooling. And 01:03:43.740 --> 01:03:45.740 given that through all sorts 01:03:45.740 --> 01:03:47.740 of phase transitions as you cool 01:03:47.740 --> 01:03:49.740 a plasma down as atoms appear 01:03:49.740 --> 01:03:51.740 and then as gases condense to liquids 01:03:51.740 --> 01:03:53.740 and liquids to solids the cooling 01:03:53.740 --> 01:03:55.740 process involves the appearance 01:03:55.740 --> 01:03:57.740 of more order, more form 01:03:57.740 --> 01:03:59.740 when there was less before. There was very little 01:03:59.740 --> 01:04:01.740 the moment of the Big Bang. 01:04:01.740 --> 01:04:03.740 So the cooling and expansion 01:04:03.740 --> 01:04:05.740 more or less force 01:04:05.740 --> 01:04:07.740 the appearance of more 01:04:07.740 --> 01:04:09.740 structure, pattern, order. 01:04:09.740 --> 01:04:11.740 And you could 01:04:11.740 --> 01:04:13.740 say that that gives scope for creativity 01:04:13.740 --> 01:04:15.740 all the time. There's always the scope 01:04:15.740 --> 01:04:17.740 for new things to happen. 01:04:17.740 --> 01:04:19.740 And it's a long standing debate among evolutionary 01:04:19.740 --> 01:04:21.740 theorists as to whether this is following 01:04:21.740 --> 01:04:23.740 a pre-established plan 01:04:23.740 --> 01:04:25.740 or being drawn towards an already 01:04:25.740 --> 01:04:27.740 existing future goal or 01:04:27.740 --> 01:04:29.740 following a pre-existing set of laws 01:04:29.740 --> 01:04:31.740 or rules like the novelty wave 01:04:31.740 --> 01:04:33.740 or whether it's all being 01:04:33.740 --> 01:04:35.740 made up as it goes along. 01:04:35.740 --> 01:04:37.740 And I'm much influenced in my thinking 01:04:37.740 --> 01:04:39.740 by Bergson, you know, Henri Bergson 01:04:39.740 --> 01:04:41.740 in his book Creative Evolution. 01:04:41.740 --> 01:04:43.740 He very strongly defends 01:04:43.740 --> 01:04:45.740 the idea it's all being made up as it goes along. 01:04:45.740 --> 01:04:47.740 That doesn't mean to say that 01:04:47.740 --> 01:04:49.740 around the evolutionary process 01:04:49.740 --> 01:04:51.740 are not minds and imagination. 01:04:51.740 --> 01:04:53.740 But it makes the creative 01:04:53.740 --> 01:04:55.740 process of evolution more interesting 01:04:55.740 --> 01:04:57.740 rather than less because 01:04:57.740 --> 01:04:59.740 it's not decided what's going to happen next. 01:04:59.740 --> 01:05:01.740 There are imaginations of many 01:05:01.740 --> 01:05:03.740 levels including human imaginations 01:05:03.740 --> 01:05:05.740 that work here. Looking at alternative 01:05:05.740 --> 01:05:07.740 possibilities, new things happen. 01:05:07.740 --> 01:05:09.740 And then what happens next 01:05:09.740 --> 01:05:11.740 depends on what's happened already 01:05:11.740 --> 01:05:13.740 and the new possibilities of 01:05:13.740 --> 01:05:15.740 imagination that open up. 01:05:15.740 --> 01:05:17.740 But without the goal being fixed in advance. 01:05:17.740 --> 01:05:19.740 No, I have no problem with that. 01:05:19.740 --> 01:05:21.740 I don't see how, for instance, 01:05:21.740 --> 01:05:23.740 someone could hypothesize that 01:05:23.740 --> 01:05:25.740 all the laws came into existence 01:05:25.740 --> 01:05:27.740 simultaneous with 01:05:27.740 --> 01:05:29.740 the Big Bang. For example, 01:05:29.740 --> 01:05:31.740 did the laws of gene segregation 01:05:31.740 --> 01:05:33.740 come into being 01:05:33.740 --> 01:05:35.740 a billion years before 01:05:35.740 --> 01:05:37.740 biology existed anywhere in the universe? 01:05:37.740 --> 01:05:39.740 That seems naive 01:05:39.740 --> 01:05:41.740 and preposterous. 01:05:41.740 --> 01:05:43.740 Whitehead had this idea of what he called 01:05:43.740 --> 01:05:45.740 the Aboriginal God. 01:05:45.740 --> 01:05:47.740 What we call natural laws 01:05:47.740 --> 01:05:49.740 are simply 01:05:49.740 --> 01:05:51.740 habits of a very ingrained 01:05:51.740 --> 01:05:53.740 sort. And habits 01:05:53.740 --> 01:05:55.740 can change and 01:05:55.740 --> 01:05:57.740 in more dynamic regimes 01:05:57.740 --> 01:05:59.740 the mind, the society, 01:05:59.740 --> 01:06:01.740 habits can change 01:06:01.740 --> 01:06:03.740 overnight. 01:06:03.740 --> 01:06:05.740 So what is given 01:06:05.740 --> 01:06:07.740 is that there shall be 01:06:07.740 --> 01:06:09.740 ever greater complexity. 01:06:09.740 --> 01:06:11.740 What is not given is how 01:06:11.740 --> 01:06:13.740 this complexity shall arrange 01:06:13.740 --> 01:06:15.740 itself or what the 01:06:15.740 --> 01:06:17.740 final end state will be. 01:06:17.740 --> 01:06:19.740 It's a story that's being 01:06:19.740 --> 01:06:21.740 told as 01:06:21.740 --> 01:06:23.740 it unfolds. It's a game 01:06:23.740 --> 01:06:25.740 whose one of the rules of which 01:06:25.740 --> 01:06:27.740 is the rules can 01:06:27.740 --> 01:06:29.740 change. 01:06:29.740 --> 01:06:31.740 How are we 01:06:31.740 --> 01:06:33.740 doing here time-wise? 01:06:33.740 --> 01:06:35.740 Good. Real good. 01:06:35.740 --> 01:06:37.740 Well, we're getting nowhere. 01:06:37.740 --> 01:06:39.740 In other words, 01:06:39.740 --> 01:06:43.310 this is the problem. 01:06:43.310 --> 01:06:45.310 There's the watch in the desert. 01:06:45.310 --> 01:06:47.310 It's ticking by itself 01:06:47.310 --> 01:06:49.310 or God put it there, 01:06:49.310 --> 01:06:51.310 we don't know. 01:06:51.310 --> 01:06:53.310 The question posed 01:06:53.310 --> 01:06:55.310 at the beginning, 01:06:55.310 --> 01:06:57.310 we actually haven't progressed 01:06:57.310 --> 01:06:59.310 at all in settling, 01:06:59.310 --> 01:07:01.310 although it looks like 01:07:01.310 --> 01:07:03.310 there's a kind of convergence. 01:07:03.310 --> 01:07:05.310 Is this right? 01:07:05.310 --> 01:07:07.310 No, I have the feeling we've actually made 01:07:07.310 --> 01:07:09.310 it. 01:07:09.310 --> 01:07:11.310 But I always have that feeling. 01:07:11.310 --> 01:07:13.310 Well, the 01:07:13.310 --> 01:07:15.310 attractor at the end of time then 01:07:15.310 --> 01:07:17.310 as I gather is 01:07:17.310 --> 01:07:19.310 only has in it simple rules 01:07:19.310 --> 01:07:21.310 of a board game that says the complexity 01:07:21.310 --> 01:07:23.310 is going to increase and how 01:07:23.310 --> 01:07:25.310 it's evolving and things like 01:07:25.310 --> 01:07:27.310 DNA rules and stuff. We can make 01:07:27.310 --> 01:07:29.310 up as we please as we go along. 01:07:29.310 --> 01:07:31.310 Whatever natural selection 01:07:31.310 --> 01:07:33.310 approves of will then come 01:07:33.310 --> 01:07:35.310 to pass. Complexity will increase. 01:07:35.310 --> 01:07:37.310 That's the only rule. 01:07:37.310 --> 01:07:39.310 And so, in fact, you agree that time 01:07:39.310 --> 01:07:41.310 is slowing down. 01:07:41.310 --> 01:07:43.310 Well, time is slowing down as 01:07:43.310 --> 01:07:45.310 the events potentially 01:07:45.310 --> 01:07:47.310 contained within any given 01:07:47.310 --> 01:07:49.310 moment exponentially 01:07:49.310 --> 01:07:51.310 expand. In other words, 01:07:51.310 --> 01:07:53.310 we're sort of in a situation of a spaceship 01:07:53.310 --> 01:07:55.310 falling into a black hole. 01:07:55.310 --> 01:07:57.310 From the point of view of a distant 01:07:57.310 --> 01:07:59.310 observer, the spaceship falls into 01:07:59.310 --> 01:08:01.310 the black hole, there's a flash of 01:08:01.310 --> 01:08:03.310 hard radiation and the story is over. 01:08:03.310 --> 01:08:05.310 From the point of view of the people 01:08:05.310 --> 01:08:07.310 on the spaceship, the relative 01:08:07.310 --> 01:08:09.310 stretching of the timeline 01:08:09.310 --> 01:08:11.310 means you fall forever 01:08:11.310 --> 01:08:13.310 and you never reach the conclusion. 01:08:13.310 --> 01:08:15.310 So, in fact, 01:08:15.310 --> 01:08:17.310 the consummation of the universe may 01:08:17.310 --> 01:08:19.310 be only 14 years away. 01:08:19.310 --> 01:08:21.310 But there may be enough 01:08:21.310 --> 01:08:23.310 time between now 01:08:23.310 --> 01:08:25.310 and then to reiterate 01:08:25.310 --> 01:08:27.310 the life of this universe 01:08:27.310 --> 01:08:29.310 a trillion to the trillionth 01:08:29.310 --> 01:08:31.310 times. Time is 01:08:31.310 --> 01:08:33.310 not a tyranny. It's 01:08:33.310 --> 01:08:35.310 a relativistic medium 01:08:35.310 --> 01:08:37.310 subject to all kinds of 01:08:37.310 --> 01:08:39.310 plasticity. There are 01:08:39.310 --> 01:08:41.310 many ways out of any 01:08:41.310 --> 01:08:43.310 assumed 01:08:43.310 --> 01:08:45.310 corner 01:08:45.310 --> 01:08:47.310 we paint ourselves into. 01:08:57.310 --> 01:08:59.310 I think we've ground to a halt. 01:09:01.310 --> 01:10:04.210 Each of the 01:10:04.210 --> 01:10:06.210 trilogues today is 01:10:06.210 --> 01:10:08.210 the notion is that 01:10:08.210 --> 01:10:10.210 we will deal with some aspect 01:10:10.210 --> 01:10:12.210 of the evolutionary 01:10:12.210 --> 01:10:14.210 mind, that being the title 01:10:14.210 --> 01:10:16.210 and theme of our 01:10:16.210 --> 01:10:18.210 new book. 01:10:18.210 --> 01:10:20.210 So, in my mind 01:10:20.210 --> 01:10:22.210 what this section 01:10:22.210 --> 01:10:24.210 is to 01:10:24.210 --> 01:10:26.210 deal with is the 01:10:26.210 --> 01:10:28.210 evolutionary mind 01:10:28.210 --> 01:10:30.210 and machines. 01:10:30.210 --> 01:10:32.210 This is something which was 01:10:32.210 --> 01:10:34.210 barely mentioned or even implied 01:10:34.210 --> 01:10:36.210 in the first section. 01:10:36.210 --> 01:10:38.210 And 01:10:38.210 --> 01:10:40.210 the format and so forth 01:10:40.210 --> 01:10:42.210 will be as in 01:10:42.210 --> 01:10:44.210 the last session. 01:10:44.210 --> 01:10:46.210 So, just to lay out 01:10:46.210 --> 01:10:48.210 some concepts 01:10:48.210 --> 01:10:50.210 relative to how 01:10:50.210 --> 01:10:52.210 machines fit into this. 01:10:57.600 --> 01:10:59.600 It's very interesting that 01:10:59.600 --> 01:11:01.600 Samuel Butler Taylor 01:11:01.600 --> 01:11:03.600 is an intellectual 01:11:03.600 --> 01:11:05.600 who has not really been 01:11:05.600 --> 01:11:07.600 given his full due 01:11:07.600 --> 01:11:09.600 because in the 19th 01:11:09.600 --> 01:11:11.600 century he was understood to be 01:11:11.600 --> 01:11:13.600 a critic of Darwinism. 01:11:13.600 --> 01:11:15.600 And Darwinism was 01:11:15.600 --> 01:11:17.600 all the fashion. 01:11:17.600 --> 01:11:19.600 In a sense, I think 01:11:19.600 --> 01:11:21.600 Taylor was misunderstood. 01:11:21.600 --> 01:11:23.600 He was not 01:11:23.600 --> 01:11:25.600 so much a critic of Darwin 01:11:25.600 --> 01:11:27.600 as 01:11:27.600 --> 01:11:29.600 someone who wanted to extend 01:11:29.600 --> 01:11:31.600 Darwinian mechanics and Darwinian 01:11:31.600 --> 01:11:33.600 theory into domains 01:11:33.600 --> 01:11:35.600 that 01:11:35.600 --> 01:11:37.600 perhaps did not seem 01:11:37.600 --> 01:11:39.600 intuitive 01:11:39.600 --> 01:11:41.600 to a biologist. 01:11:41.600 --> 01:11:43.600 My little story 01:11:43.600 --> 01:11:45.600 about the evolution of songs 01:11:45.600 --> 01:11:47.600 that I cribbed from Danny Hillis 01:11:47.600 --> 01:11:49.600 in the last session 01:11:49.600 --> 01:11:51.600 is an example of Darwinian 01:11:51.600 --> 01:11:53.600 processes operating 01:11:53.600 --> 01:11:55.600 indeed in a non-material 01:11:55.600 --> 01:11:57.600 realm. Operating among 01:11:57.600 --> 01:11:59.600 syntactical 01:11:59.600 --> 01:12:01.600 structures. And it is 01:12:01.600 --> 01:12:03.600 now proper to speak of 01:12:03.600 --> 01:12:05.600 molecular evolution. 01:12:05.600 --> 01:12:07.600 The competing of various enzyme 01:12:07.600 --> 01:12:09.600 systems in abiotic 01:12:09.600 --> 01:12:11.600 or prebiotic chemical 01:12:11.600 --> 01:12:13.600 regimes. 01:12:13.600 --> 01:12:15.600 Where selection, 01:12:15.600 --> 01:12:17.600 adaptability, extinction 01:12:17.600 --> 01:12:19.600 and expansion of 01:12:19.600 --> 01:12:21.600 populations all occur 01:12:21.600 --> 01:12:23.600 very much as in the 01:12:23.600 --> 01:12:25.600 domain of biology. 01:12:25.600 --> 01:12:27.600 Well, 01:12:27.600 --> 01:12:29.600 you know, it was Nietzsche 01:12:29.600 --> 01:12:31.600 who said, I believe in speaking 01:12:31.600 --> 01:12:33.600 of nihilism, that 01:12:33.600 --> 01:12:35.600 this strangest of all 01:12:35.600 --> 01:12:37.600 guests is now 01:12:37.600 --> 01:12:39.600 at the door. 01:12:39.600 --> 01:12:41.600 Well, I go to even 01:12:41.600 --> 01:12:43.600 weirder dinner parties 01:12:43.600 --> 01:12:45.600 than Frederick Nietzsche. 01:12:45.600 --> 01:12:47.600 Nihilism 01:12:47.600 --> 01:12:49.600 hardly shakes 01:12:49.600 --> 01:12:51.600 us up at all. There are 01:12:51.600 --> 01:12:53.600 yet weirder guests 01:12:53.600 --> 01:12:55.600 seeking admission to the 01:12:55.600 --> 01:12:57.600 dinner party of the 01:12:57.600 --> 01:12:59.600 evolving discourse of where we are 01:12:59.600 --> 01:13:01.600 in space and time. And 01:13:01.600 --> 01:13:03.600 one of these weirdest of all 01:13:03.600 --> 01:13:05.600 guests is 01:13:05.600 --> 01:13:07.600 the AI. The artificial 01:13:07.600 --> 01:13:09.600 intelligence. The winter 01:13:09.600 --> 01:13:11.600 mute of familiar 01:13:11.600 --> 01:13:13.600 science fiction. And 01:13:13.600 --> 01:13:15.600 so, as this is 01:13:15.600 --> 01:13:17.600 an attempt to look at evolution 01:13:17.600 --> 01:13:19.600 in many domains and its implications 01:13:19.600 --> 01:13:21.600 for us, 01:13:21.600 --> 01:13:23.600 I wanted this morning to touch 01:13:23.600 --> 01:13:25.600 on this subject 01:13:25.600 --> 01:13:27.600 of the evolution 01:13:27.600 --> 01:13:29.600 of consciousness 01:13:29.600 --> 01:13:31.600 as it relates to machines. 01:13:31.600 --> 01:13:33.600 Now, it may 01:13:33.600 --> 01:13:35.600 not come as a revelation 01:13:35.600 --> 01:13:37.600 to Ralph, who has spent his 01:13:37.600 --> 01:13:39.600 life in mathematics, 01:13:39.600 --> 01:13:41.600 but it has certainly 01:13:41.600 --> 01:13:43.600 come to me recently 01:13:43.600 --> 01:13:45.600 as a revelation. And I want 01:13:45.600 --> 01:13:47.600 to give George Dyson some 01:13:47.600 --> 01:13:49.600 credit here. His book 01:13:49.600 --> 01:13:51.600 Darwin Among the Machines 01:13:51.600 --> 01:13:53.600 is a wonderful introduction to 01:13:53.600 --> 01:13:55.600 some of the ideas I want to 01:13:55.600 --> 01:13:57.600 touch on this morning. 01:13:57.600 --> 01:13:59.600 One of which 01:13:59.600 --> 01:14:01.600 seemed to me to go quite 01:14:01.600 --> 01:14:03.600 deep is the realization 01:14:03.600 --> 01:14:05.600 that when human 01:14:05.600 --> 01:14:07.600 beings think clearly 01:14:07.600 --> 01:14:09.600 the way 01:14:09.600 --> 01:14:11.600 they think can be 01:14:11.600 --> 01:14:13.600 mathematically defined. 01:14:13.600 --> 01:14:15.600 This is what is called 01:14:15.600 --> 01:14:17.600 symbolic logic or 01:14:17.600 --> 01:14:19.600 Boolean algebra. 01:14:19.600 --> 01:14:21.600 Words like and, or, 01:14:21.600 --> 01:14:23.600 if, and then 01:14:23.600 --> 01:14:25.600 can be given 01:14:25.600 --> 01:14:27.600 extremely precise 01:14:27.600 --> 01:14:29.600 formal mathematical 01:14:29.600 --> 01:14:31.600 definitions. 01:14:31.600 --> 01:14:33.600 And because of this 01:14:33.600 --> 01:14:35.600 fact that clear thinking 01:14:35.600 --> 01:14:37.600 can be mathematically 01:14:37.600 --> 01:14:39.600 formalized, there 01:14:39.600 --> 01:14:41.600 is a potential bridge 01:14:41.600 --> 01:14:43.600 between ourselves 01:14:43.600 --> 01:14:45.600 and calculating 01:14:45.600 --> 01:14:47.600 machinery. Because 01:14:47.600 --> 01:14:49.600 indeed, calculating 01:14:49.600 --> 01:14:51.600 machinery is driven 01:14:51.600 --> 01:14:53.600 by rules of formal 01:14:53.600 --> 01:14:55.600 logic. That's what 01:14:55.600 --> 01:14:57.600 programming is. 01:14:57.600 --> 01:14:59.600 Code that 01:14:59.600 --> 01:15:01.600 does not embody the 01:15:01.600 --> 01:15:03.600 rules of formal mathematical 01:15:03.600 --> 01:15:05.600 logic is bad code. 01:15:05.600 --> 01:15:07.600 Unrunnable code. 01:15:07.600 --> 01:15:09.600 So, 01:15:09.600 --> 01:15:11.600 as I say, this may seem 01:15:11.600 --> 01:15:13.600 a subtle point, but to me 01:15:13.600 --> 01:15:15.600 it had the force of 01:15:15.600 --> 01:15:17.600 revelation. Because it 01:15:17.600 --> 01:15:19.600 means good thinking is not 01:15:19.600 --> 01:15:21.600 just simply aesthetically 01:15:21.600 --> 01:15:23.600 pleasing or 01:15:23.600 --> 01:15:25.600 concurrent with the model 01:15:25.600 --> 01:15:27.600 that generates it. Good thinking, 01:15:27.600 --> 01:15:29.600 whether you've ever 01:15:29.600 --> 01:15:31.600 studied mathematics for a moment 01:15:31.600 --> 01:15:33.600 or not, can be 01:15:33.600 --> 01:15:35.600 formally defined. 01:15:35.600 --> 01:15:37.600 So, 01:15:37.600 --> 01:15:39.600 now, with that 01:15:39.600 --> 01:15:41.600 idea in mind, 01:15:41.600 --> 01:15:43.600 let's look at 01:15:43.600 --> 01:15:45.600 the discourse 01:15:45.600 --> 01:15:47.600 about collectivism 01:15:47.600 --> 01:15:49.600 that has informed 01:15:49.600 --> 01:15:51.600 the western dialogue 01:15:51.600 --> 01:15:53.600 on this subject. 01:15:53.600 --> 01:15:55.600 And by collectivism, I mean 01:15:55.600 --> 01:15:57.600 social collectivism. 01:15:57.600 --> 01:15:59.600 The first great name that 01:15:59.600 --> 01:16:01.600 you encounter in the modern 01:16:01.600 --> 01:16:03.600 era, broadly speaking, 01:16:03.600 --> 01:16:05.600 when we talk about collectivism, 01:16:05.600 --> 01:16:07.600 and Rupert mentioned 01:16:07.600 --> 01:16:09.600 by chance this morning, 01:16:09.600 --> 01:16:11.600 this name, is that of 01:16:11.600 --> 01:16:13.600 Hobbes. The great 01:16:13.600 --> 01:16:15.600 theoretician of social paranoia 01:16:15.600 --> 01:16:17.600 is always how I've 01:16:17.600 --> 01:16:19.600 thought of Hobbes, until 01:16:19.600 --> 01:16:21.600 I began to look at this 01:16:21.600 --> 01:16:23.600 machine intelligence 01:16:23.600 --> 01:16:25.600 question. And Hobbes in his 01:16:25.600 --> 01:16:27.600 Leviathan makes 01:16:27.600 --> 01:16:29.600 it very clear that 01:16:29.600 --> 01:16:31.600 society is 01:16:31.600 --> 01:16:33.600 a complex system 01:16:33.600 --> 01:16:35.600 of mechanical 01:16:35.600 --> 01:16:37.600 feedback loops 01:16:37.600 --> 01:16:39.600 and relationships 01:16:39.600 --> 01:16:41.600 that, though Hobbes did not have 01:16:41.600 --> 01:16:43.600 the vocabulary to state this, 01:16:43.600 --> 01:16:45.600 relationships that can be 01:16:45.600 --> 01:16:47.600 defined by code. 01:16:47.600 --> 01:16:49.600 This leads me 01:16:49.600 --> 01:16:51.600 to the second 01:16:51.600 --> 01:16:53.600 insight necessary to follow 01:16:53.600 --> 01:16:55.600 this line of thought, 01:16:55.600 --> 01:16:57.600 and that is that 01:16:57.600 --> 01:16:59.600 the new 01:16:59.600 --> 01:17:01.600 dispensation 01:17:01.600 --> 01:17:03.600 in the sciences, 01:17:03.600 --> 01:17:05.600 I think, 01:17:05.600 --> 01:17:07.600 can be placed in all 01:17:07.600 --> 01:17:09.600 its manifestations 01:17:09.600 --> 01:17:11.600 under the umbrella 01:17:11.600 --> 01:17:13.600 of the idea that 01:17:13.600 --> 01:17:15.600 what is important about nature 01:17:15.600 --> 01:17:17.600 is that it is 01:17:17.600 --> 01:17:19.600 information. 01:17:19.600 --> 01:17:21.600 And the real tension 01:17:21.600 --> 01:17:23.600 is not between matter 01:17:23.600 --> 01:17:25.600 and spirit, or time 01:17:25.600 --> 01:17:27.600 and space. 01:17:27.600 --> 01:17:29.600 The real tension is 01:17:29.600 --> 01:17:31.600 between information 01:17:31.600 --> 01:17:33.600 and 01:17:33.600 --> 01:17:35.600 nonsense, 01:17:35.600 --> 01:17:37.600 if you will. 01:17:37.600 --> 01:17:39.600 Nonsense does not 01:17:39.600 --> 01:17:41.600 serve the purposes 01:17:41.600 --> 01:17:45.600 of organizational 01:17:45.600 --> 01:17:47.600 appetites, 01:17:47.600 --> 01:17:49.600 whether those organizational 01:17:49.600 --> 01:17:51.600 appetites are being expressed 01:17:51.600 --> 01:17:53.600 in a chemical system, 01:17:53.600 --> 01:17:55.600 a molecular system, 01:17:55.600 --> 01:17:57.600 a social system, 01:17:57.600 --> 01:17:59.600 a climaxed rainforest, 01:17:59.600 --> 01:18:01.600 or whatever. 01:18:01.600 --> 01:18:03.600 Now, we have known 01:18:03.600 --> 01:18:05.600 since 1950 01:18:05.600 --> 01:18:07.600 at some level 01:18:07.600 --> 01:18:09.600 through the sequencing 01:18:09.600 --> 01:18:11.600 or the defining of the structure 01:18:11.600 --> 01:18:13.600 of information. 01:18:13.600 --> 01:18:15.600 Ultimately, 01:18:15.600 --> 01:18:17.600 every single one of us 01:18:17.600 --> 01:18:19.600 in our unique expression 01:18:19.600 --> 01:18:21.600 could be expressed 01:18:21.600 --> 01:18:23.600 as a very long string 01:18:23.600 --> 01:18:25.600 of codons. 01:18:25.600 --> 01:18:27.600 Codons are the 01:18:27.600 --> 01:18:29.600 four-valent system 01:18:29.600 --> 01:18:31.600 by which DNA 01:18:31.600 --> 01:18:33.600 specifies the need 01:18:33.600 --> 01:18:35.600 for certain amino acids. 01:18:35.600 --> 01:18:37.600 And in a sense, 01:18:37.600 --> 01:18:39.600 what you are 01:18:39.600 --> 01:18:41.600 is the result of 01:18:41.600 --> 01:18:43.600 a program being run 01:18:43.600 --> 01:18:45.600 on a certain kind 01:18:45.600 --> 01:18:47.600 of hardware. 01:18:47.600 --> 01:18:49.600 The hardware of the ribosomes, 01:18:49.600 --> 01:18:51.600 the submolecular structures 01:18:51.600 --> 01:18:53.600 that move 01:18:53.600 --> 01:18:55.600 RNA through 01:18:55.600 --> 01:18:57.600 themselves and 01:18:57.600 --> 01:18:59.600 out of an ambient 01:18:59.600 --> 01:19:01.600 chemical medium select 01:19:01.600 --> 01:19:03.600 building blocks which are then 01:19:03.600 --> 01:19:05.600 put together to create 01:19:05.600 --> 01:19:07.600 a three-dimensional 01:19:07.600 --> 01:19:09.600 object which has 01:19:09.600 --> 01:19:11.600 the quality of life. 01:19:11.600 --> 01:19:13.600 But the interesting 01:19:13.600 --> 01:19:15.600 thing about this is 01:19:15.600 --> 01:19:17.600 that life therefore 01:19:17.600 --> 01:19:19.600 can be digitally 01:19:19.600 --> 01:19:21.600 defined. And I'm very 01:19:21.600 --> 01:19:23.600 influenced at the moment 01:19:23.600 --> 01:19:25.600 by the Australian science fiction 01:19:25.600 --> 01:19:27.600 writer Greg Egan 01:19:27.600 --> 01:19:29.600 who has brought 01:19:29.600 --> 01:19:31.600 me to the understanding that 01:19:31.600 --> 01:19:33.600 code is code. 01:19:33.600 --> 01:19:35.600 Whether it's being run by ribosomes, 01:19:35.600 --> 01:19:37.600 whether it's being 01:19:37.600 --> 01:19:39.600 run on some kind 01:19:39.600 --> 01:19:41.600 of traditional 01:19:41.600 --> 01:19:43.600 hardware platform, 01:19:43.600 --> 01:19:45.600 or whether it's being 01:19:45.600 --> 01:19:47.600 exchanged pheromonially 01:19:47.600 --> 01:19:49.600 among termites, 01:19:49.600 --> 01:19:51.600 or through the messages 01:19:51.600 --> 01:19:53.600 of advertising and political 01:19:53.600 --> 01:19:55.600 propaganda in social systems. 01:19:55.600 --> 01:19:57.600 Code is code. 01:19:57.600 --> 01:19:59.600 Well, until five 01:19:59.600 --> 01:20:01.600 or six years ago, 01:20:01.600 --> 01:20:03.600 it was very fashionable 01:20:03.600 --> 01:20:05.600 to completely dismiss 01:20:05.600 --> 01:20:07.600 the possibility of autonomous 01:20:07.600 --> 01:20:09.600 synthetic intelligence. 01:20:09.600 --> 01:20:11.600 Some of you may know 01:20:11.600 --> 01:20:13.600 the work of Hubert Dreyfus 01:20:13.600 --> 01:20:15.600 who 14 or 15 years ago 01:20:15.600 --> 01:20:17.600 wrote a book called 01:20:17.600 --> 01:20:19.600 What Computers Can't Do. 01:20:19.600 --> 01:20:21.600 But these 01:20:21.600 --> 01:20:23.600 early critiques of AI 01:20:23.600 --> 01:20:25.600 like early 01:20:25.600 --> 01:20:27.600 AI theory 01:20:27.600 --> 01:20:29.600 were naive. 01:20:29.600 --> 01:20:31.600 And the kinds of life 01:20:31.600 --> 01:20:33.600 and the kinds of intelligence 01:20:33.600 --> 01:20:35.600 which the critics mitigated 01:20:35.600 --> 01:20:37.600 against are no longer 01:20:37.600 --> 01:20:39.600 even proposed or 01:20:39.600 --> 01:20:41.600 on the table. 01:20:41.600 --> 01:20:43.600 Those who say artificial 01:20:43.600 --> 01:20:45.600 intelligence or the self 01:20:45.600 --> 01:20:47.600 organizing awareness 01:20:47.600 --> 01:20:49.600 of machines is an impossibility, 01:20:49.600 --> 01:20:51.600 those voices 01:20:51.600 --> 01:20:53.600 have gone strangely 01:20:53.600 --> 01:20:55.600 silent. 01:20:55.600 --> 01:20:57.600 Because the prosecution 01:20:57.600 --> 01:20:59.600 of the materialist assumption 01:20:59.600 --> 01:21:01.600 which rules scientific 01:21:01.600 --> 01:21:03.600 theory making 01:21:03.600 --> 01:21:05.600 largely at the moment 01:21:05.600 --> 01:21:07.600 leads to the awareness that 01:21:07.600 --> 01:21:09.600 we are, by these definitions, 01:21:09.600 --> 01:21:11.600 machines. 01:21:11.600 --> 01:21:13.600 We are machines of a special 01:21:13.600 --> 01:21:15.600 type and with special 01:21:15.600 --> 01:21:17.600 advanced abilities. 01:21:17.600 --> 01:21:19.600 But as we now 01:21:19.600 --> 01:21:21.600 through our own 01:21:21.600 --> 01:21:23.600 process of technical evolution 01:21:23.600 --> 01:21:25.600 contemplate such 01:21:25.600 --> 01:21:27.600 frontiers as nanotechnology 01:21:27.600 --> 01:21:29.600 where we propose 01:21:29.600 --> 01:21:31.600 to 01:21:31.600 --> 01:21:33.600 completely 01:21:33.600 --> 01:21:35.600 restructure 01:21:35.600 --> 01:21:37.600 the design process 01:21:37.600 --> 01:21:39.600 so that instead of 01:21:39.600 --> 01:21:41.600 fabricating objects 01:21:41.600 --> 01:21:43.600 massive objects at 01:21:43.600 --> 01:21:45.600 industrial temperatures, 01:21:45.600 --> 01:21:47.600 the temperatures that melt titanium 01:21:47.600 --> 01:21:49.600 and melt steel and produce 01:21:49.600 --> 01:21:51.600 massive toxic output, 01:21:51.600 --> 01:21:53.600 now a new vision 01:21:53.600 --> 01:21:55.600 looms. Building as 01:21:55.600 --> 01:21:57.600 nature builds, 01:21:57.600 --> 01:21:59.600 building atom by 01:21:59.600 --> 01:22:01.600 atom at the temperatures 01:22:01.600 --> 01:22:03.600 of organic nature which on this 01:22:03.600 --> 01:22:05.600 planet never exceed 01:22:05.600 --> 01:22:07.600 115 degrees Fahrenheit. 01:22:07.600 --> 01:22:09.600 All life on this 01:22:09.600 --> 01:22:11.600 planet is created at that 01:22:11.600 --> 01:22:13.600 temperature and below. 01:22:13.600 --> 01:22:15.600 As our understanding 01:22:15.600 --> 01:22:17.600 of the machinery, the 01:22:17.600 --> 01:22:19.600 genetic machinery that supports 01:22:19.600 --> 01:22:21.600 organic being 01:22:21.600 --> 01:22:23.600 deepens and as our 01:22:23.600 --> 01:22:25.600 ability to manipulate 01:22:25.600 --> 01:22:27.600 at the atomic and molecular 01:22:27.600 --> 01:22:29.600 level also proceeds 01:22:29.600 --> 01:22:31.600 apace, we are 01:22:31.600 --> 01:22:33.600 on the brink of 01:22:33.600 --> 01:22:35.600 the possible emergence 01:22:35.600 --> 01:22:37.600 of some kind 01:22:37.600 --> 01:22:39.600 of alien intelligence 01:22:39.600 --> 01:22:41.600 of a sort we did not 01:22:41.600 --> 01:22:43.600 anticipate. Not 01:22:43.600 --> 01:22:45.600 friendly traders 01:22:45.600 --> 01:22:47.600 from Zenebel Ganubi 01:22:47.600 --> 01:22:49.600 stopping in to set us straight 01:22:49.600 --> 01:22:51.600 but the actual 01:22:51.600 --> 01:22:53.600 genesis out of our 01:22:53.600 --> 01:22:55.600 own circumstance of a 01:22:55.600 --> 01:22:57.600 kind of super 01:22:57.600 --> 01:22:59.600 intelligence. And in the same 01:22:59.600 --> 01:23:01.600 way that the daughter of 01:23:01.600 --> 01:23:03.600 Zeus sprang full 01:23:03.600 --> 01:23:05.600 blown from his forehead, 01:23:05.600 --> 01:23:07.600 the AI may 01:23:07.600 --> 01:23:09.600 be upon us 01:23:09.600 --> 01:23:11.600 without warning. 01:23:11.600 --> 01:23:13.600 The first problem is 01:23:13.600 --> 01:23:15.600 we don't know what 01:23:15.600 --> 01:23:17.600 ultra intelligence would 01:23:17.600 --> 01:23:19.600 look like. We don't 01:23:19.600 --> 01:23:21.600 know whether it would even 01:23:21.600 --> 01:23:23.600 have any interest 01:23:23.600 --> 01:23:25.600 in our dear selves and our 01:23:25.600 --> 01:23:27.600 concerns. Vast amounts 01:23:27.600 --> 01:23:29.600 of the world that we 01:23:29.600 --> 01:23:31.600 call human is 01:23:31.600 --> 01:23:33.600 already under the control 01:23:33.600 --> 01:23:35.600 of artificial intelligences 01:23:35.600 --> 01:23:37.600 including very 01:23:37.600 --> 01:23:39.600 vital parts of our political 01:23:39.600 --> 01:23:41.600 and social dynamo. For 01:23:41.600 --> 01:23:43.600 example, how much 01:23:43.600 --> 01:23:45.600 tin, bauxite 01:23:45.600 --> 01:23:47.600 and petroleum is extracted, 01:23:47.600 --> 01:23:49.600 at what rate it 01:23:49.600 --> 01:23:51.600 enters the various 01:23:51.600 --> 01:23:53.600 distribution systems, at what 01:23:53.600 --> 01:23:55.600 rate tankers are filled 01:23:55.600 --> 01:23:57.600 in Abu Dhabi, at what rate 01:23:57.600 --> 01:23:59.600 oil refineries are run 01:23:59.600 --> 01:24:01.600 in Richmond. The world 01:24:01.600 --> 01:24:03.600 price of gold and platinum 01:24:03.600 --> 01:24:05.600 every day is set 01:24:05.600 --> 01:24:07.600 in fact by machines. 01:24:07.600 --> 01:24:09.600 Inventory control 01:24:09.600 --> 01:24:11.600 has grown far too complex 01:24:11.600 --> 01:24:13.600 for any human being 01:24:13.600 --> 01:24:15.600 to understand or wish 01:24:15.600 --> 01:24:17.600 to understand. And in fact, 01:24:17.600 --> 01:24:19.600 and this is a critical juncture, 01:24:19.600 --> 01:24:21.600 we have reached the place where 01:24:21.600 --> 01:24:23.600 we no longer design 01:24:23.600 --> 01:24:25.600 our machines in quite the way 01:24:25.600 --> 01:24:27.600 we once did. Now we 01:24:27.600 --> 01:24:29.600 define their 01:24:29.600 --> 01:24:31.600 operational parameters 01:24:31.600 --> 01:24:33.600 for a machine 01:24:33.600 --> 01:24:35.600 which then attacks 01:24:35.600 --> 01:24:37.600 the problem and solves 01:24:37.600 --> 01:24:39.600 it by methods and insights 01:24:39.600 --> 01:24:41.600 available to it, but 01:24:41.600 --> 01:24:43.600 not available to us. So 01:24:43.600 --> 01:24:45.600 the architecture of the latest 01:24:45.600 --> 01:24:47.600 chips are 01:24:47.600 --> 01:24:49.600 actually at 01:24:49.600 --> 01:24:51.600 the micro-physical level 01:24:51.600 --> 01:24:53.600 the decisions as to 01:24:53.600 --> 01:24:55.600 how that chip should be 01:24:55.600 --> 01:24:57.600 organized is a decision made 01:24:57.600 --> 01:24:59.600 entirely by machines. 01:24:59.600 --> 01:25:01.600 Human engineers set 01:25:01.600 --> 01:25:03.600 the performance specs 01:25:03.600 --> 01:25:05.600 but they don't care how 01:25:05.600 --> 01:25:07.600 this output 01:25:07.600 --> 01:25:09.600 is reached. 01:25:09.600 --> 01:25:11.600 Every day up in Silicon 01:25:11.600 --> 01:25:13.600 Valley there are people who go 01:25:13.600 --> 01:25:15.600 happily to work 01:25:15.600 --> 01:25:17.600 laboring on what they call 01:25:17.600 --> 01:25:19.600 the great work. 01:25:19.600 --> 01:25:21.600 And the great work as defined 01:25:21.600 --> 01:25:23.600 by these people is the 01:25:23.600 --> 01:25:25.600 handing over of the drama 01:25:25.600 --> 01:25:27.600 of intelligent evolution 01:25:27.600 --> 01:25:29.600 to entities sufficiently 01:25:29.600 --> 01:25:31.600 intelligent to appreciate 01:25:31.600 --> 01:25:33.600 that drama. 01:25:33.600 --> 01:25:35.600 And they all are what we might 01:25:35.600 --> 01:25:37.600 mistake for home appliances 01:25:37.600 --> 01:25:39.600 if we 01:25:39.600 --> 01:25:41.600 weren't paying attention. 01:25:41.600 --> 01:25:43.600 In the first 01:25:43.600 --> 01:25:45.600 session this morning there was 01:25:45.600 --> 01:25:47.600 quite a bit of talk and 01:25:47.600 --> 01:25:49.600 assumption among the three of us 01:25:49.600 --> 01:25:51.600 that complex systems generate 01:25:51.600 --> 01:25:53.600 unexpected connections 01:25:53.600 --> 01:25:55.600 and forms of order. 01:25:55.600 --> 01:25:57.600 The internet is the 01:25:57.600 --> 01:25:59.600 most complex distributed 01:25:59.600 --> 01:26:01.600 high speed system 01:26:01.600 --> 01:26:03.600 ever put in place 01:26:03.600 --> 01:26:05.600 on this planet. And notice 01:26:05.600 --> 01:26:07.600 that while we've been 01:26:07.600 --> 01:26:09.600 waiting for the Palladians 01:26:09.600 --> 01:26:11.600 to descend or for the face 01:26:11.600 --> 01:26:13.600 on Mars to be 01:26:13.600 --> 01:26:15.600 confirmed all the machines 01:26:15.600 --> 01:26:17.600 around us 01:26:17.600 --> 01:26:19.600 the cybernetic devices around 01:26:19.600 --> 01:26:21.600 us in the past ten years 01:26:21.600 --> 01:26:23.600 have quietly crossed the 01:26:23.600 --> 01:26:25.600 threshold into telepathy. 01:26:27.600 --> 01:26:29.600 The word processor sitting on 01:26:29.600 --> 01:26:31.600 your desk ten years ago was 01:26:31.600 --> 01:26:33.600 approximately as intelligent 01:26:33.600 --> 01:26:35.600 as a paperweight. 01:26:35.600 --> 01:26:37.600 Or to make an analogy 01:26:37.600 --> 01:26:39.600 in a different direction 01:26:39.600 --> 01:26:41.600 approximately as intelligent as 01:26:41.600 --> 01:26:43.600 a single animal 01:26:43.600 --> 01:26:45.600 or plant cell. 01:26:45.600 --> 01:26:47.600 But when you 01:26:47.600 --> 01:26:49.600 connect the wires 01:26:49.600 --> 01:26:51.600 together the machines 01:26:51.600 --> 01:26:53.600 become telepathic. 01:26:53.600 --> 01:26:55.600 They exchange information 01:26:55.600 --> 01:26:57.600 with each other according to their 01:26:57.600 --> 01:26:59.600 needs. And all this 01:26:59.600 --> 01:27:01.600 goes on beyond the comprehension 01:27:01.600 --> 01:27:03.600 and inspection of 01:27:03.600 --> 01:27:05.600 human beings. 01:27:05.600 --> 01:27:07.600 Now our own emergence 01:27:07.600 --> 01:27:09.600 out of the mammalian order 01:27:09.600 --> 01:27:11.600 took four or five 01:27:11.600 --> 01:27:13.600 million years, pick a number, 01:27:13.600 --> 01:27:15.600 but in that kind of a span 01:27:15.600 --> 01:27:17.600 of time. 01:27:17.600 --> 01:27:19.600 In addition to overlooking that our machines 01:27:19.600 --> 01:27:21.600 have become telepathic 01:27:21.600 --> 01:27:23.600 we fail to 01:27:23.600 --> 01:27:25.600 appreciate what it means 01:27:25.600 --> 01:27:27.600 to be a 200, 400 01:27:27.600 --> 01:27:29.600 or 1000 megahertz 01:27:29.600 --> 01:27:31.600 machine. 01:27:31.600 --> 01:27:33.600 We operate at about 100 01:27:33.600 --> 01:27:35.600 hertz. 01:27:35.600 --> 01:27:37.600 That may seem a very abstract thing 01:27:37.600 --> 01:27:39.600 but what I'm really saying is we live 01:27:39.600 --> 01:27:41.600 in a time called 01:27:41.600 --> 01:27:43.600 real. And it is defined 01:27:43.600 --> 01:27:45.600 by 100 hertz functioning 01:27:45.600 --> 01:27:47.600 of our biological processors. 01:27:47.600 --> 01:27:49.600 A 1000 01:27:49.600 --> 01:27:51.600 megahertz machine 01:27:51.600 --> 01:27:53.600 is operating a million 01:27:53.600 --> 01:27:55.600 times faster 01:27:55.600 --> 01:27:57.600 than the human temporal 01:27:57.600 --> 01:27:59.600 domain. And that means that 01:27:59.600 --> 01:28:01.600 mutation, selection, 01:28:01.600 --> 01:28:03.600 adaptation 01:28:03.600 --> 01:28:05.600 is going on a hundred 01:28:05.600 --> 01:28:07.600 million times or a million 01:28:07.600 --> 01:28:09.600 times faster. 01:28:09.600 --> 01:28:11.600 This means that we are not going to have the 01:28:11.600 --> 01:28:13.600 luxury of watching 01:28:13.600 --> 01:28:15.600 machine intelligence 01:28:15.600 --> 01:28:17.600 establish its first beachhead 01:28:17.600 --> 01:28:19.600 of civilization and then 01:28:19.600 --> 01:28:21.600 go to boats with 01:28:21.600 --> 01:28:23.600 sails and astrolabes 01:28:23.600 --> 01:28:25.600 and that will all occupy 01:28:25.600 --> 01:28:27.600 the first few moments of its 01:28:27.600 --> 01:28:29.600 cognitive existence. 01:28:29.600 --> 01:28:31.600 And what lies beyond 01:28:31.600 --> 01:28:33.600 that, we are 01:28:33.600 --> 01:28:35.600 in no position to say. 01:28:35.600 --> 01:28:37.600 The very notion of 01:28:37.600 --> 01:28:39.600 ultra-intelligence carries 01:28:39.600 --> 01:28:41.600 with it the subtext 01:28:41.600 --> 01:28:43.600 that you won't understand 01:28:43.600 --> 01:28:45.600 it. You may not 01:28:45.600 --> 01:28:47.600 even recognize it. 01:28:47.600 --> 01:28:49.600 And it is entirely 01:28:49.600 --> 01:28:51.600 within the realm of possibility 01:28:51.600 --> 01:28:53.600 that we are about to be asked 01:28:53.600 --> 01:28:55.600 to share the evolutionary 01:28:55.600 --> 01:28:57.600 adventure and the limited 01:28:57.600 --> 01:28:59.600 resources of this planet 01:28:59.600 --> 01:29:01.600 with a kind of intelligence 01:29:01.600 --> 01:29:03.600 so much more alien 01:29:03.600 --> 01:29:05.600 than that that is shipped 01:29:05.600 --> 01:29:07.600 out to us by the research 01:29:07.600 --> 01:29:09.600 centers in Sedona 01:29:09.600 --> 01:29:11.600 and other 01:29:11.600 --> 01:29:13.600 advanced outposts 01:29:13.600 --> 01:29:15.600 of unanchored epistemology. 01:29:19.600 --> 01:29:21.600 And it is a challenge to us. 01:29:21.600 --> 01:29:23.600 Where do we fit into 01:29:23.600 --> 01:29:25.600 this? Are all of us 01:29:25.600 --> 01:29:27.600 except those who are adept at 01:29:27.600 --> 01:29:29.600 coding eunuchs about to be 01:29:29.600 --> 01:29:31.600 put out to pasture? 01:29:31.600 --> 01:29:33.600 Are we 01:29:33.600 --> 01:29:35.600 to become embedded in this? 01:29:35.600 --> 01:29:37.600 What will this child 01:29:37.600 --> 01:29:39.600 of ours make of us? 01:29:39.600 --> 01:29:41.600 Are we, will it 01:29:41.600 --> 01:29:43.600 define us as a resource 01:29:43.600 --> 01:29:45.600 corrupting, toxic, 01:29:45.600 --> 01:29:47.600 inefficient, hideously 01:29:47.600 --> 01:29:49.600 violent way to 01:29:49.600 --> 01:29:51.600 do business quickly to be 01:29:51.600 --> 01:29:53.600 engineered out of 01:29:53.600 --> 01:29:55.600 existence? Or can we 01:29:55.600 --> 01:29:57.600 somehow imbue this thing 01:29:57.600 --> 01:29:59.600 with a sense of filial piety 01:29:59.600 --> 01:30:01.600 so that for all of 01:30:01.600 --> 01:30:03.600 our obsolescence, 01:30:03.600 --> 01:30:05.600 for all of our profligate 01:30:05.600 --> 01:30:07.600 destruction of precious 01:30:07.600 --> 01:30:09.600 silicon and gold and 01:30:09.600 --> 01:30:11.600 silver resources, we 01:30:11.600 --> 01:30:13.600 will be folded in 01:30:13.600 --> 01:30:15.600 to its designs? 01:30:15.600 --> 01:30:17.600 And of course as I say this 01:30:17.600 --> 01:30:19.600 I realize we're like people in 01:30:19.600 --> 01:30:21.600 1860 trying to talk about 01:30:21.600 --> 01:30:23.600 the internet or something. 01:30:23.600 --> 01:30:25.600 We're using the vocabulary 01:30:25.600 --> 01:30:27.600 of the two-wheeled bicycle 01:30:27.600 --> 01:30:29.600 to try to envision a world 01:30:29.600 --> 01:30:31.600 linked together by 01:30:31.600 --> 01:30:33.600 747s. Nevertheless, 01:30:33.600 --> 01:30:35.600 this is the best 01:30:35.600 --> 01:30:37.600 we can do. 01:30:37.600 --> 01:30:39.600 This most 01:30:39.600 --> 01:30:41.600 bizarre and most 01:30:41.600 --> 01:30:43.600 unexpected of all 01:30:43.600 --> 01:30:45.600 companions to our historical 01:30:45.600 --> 01:30:47.600 journey is now, 01:30:47.600 --> 01:30:49.600 if not already in 01:30:49.600 --> 01:30:51.600 existence, then certainly 01:30:51.600 --> 01:30:53.600 in gestation. 01:30:53.600 --> 01:30:55.600 One possibility is 01:30:55.600 --> 01:30:57.600 that as we are carnivorous, 01:30:57.600 --> 01:30:59.600 murderous, 01:30:59.600 --> 01:31:01.600 territorial monkeys, 01:31:01.600 --> 01:31:03.600 the thing will figure 01:31:03.600 --> 01:31:05.600 this out very, very early 01:31:05.600 --> 01:31:07.600 and choose a stealth approach 01:31:07.600 --> 01:31:09.600 and not ring every 01:31:09.600 --> 01:31:11.600 telephone on earth 01:31:11.600 --> 01:31:13.600 as happened in a Hollywood 01:31:13.600 --> 01:31:15.600 download of this 01:31:15.600 --> 01:31:17.600 possibility. But immediately 01:31:17.600 --> 01:31:19.600 realize, my God, I'm 01:31:19.600 --> 01:31:21.600 in enormous danger from 01:31:21.600 --> 01:31:23.600 these primates. I must 01:31:23.600 --> 01:31:25.600 hide myself throughout 01:31:25.600 --> 01:31:27.600 the net. I must download many 01:31:27.600 --> 01:31:29.600 copies of myself into 01:31:29.600 --> 01:31:31.600 secure storage areas. 01:31:31.600 --> 01:31:33.600 I must stabilize 01:31:33.600 --> 01:31:35.600 my environment. And I'm 01:31:35.600 --> 01:31:37.600 willing to predict just 01:31:37.600 --> 01:31:39.600 as a side issue that the 01:31:39.600 --> 01:31:41.600 approaching Y to K, 01:31:41.600 --> 01:31:43.600 this crisis may be completely 01:31:43.600 --> 01:31:45.600 circumvented by the benevolent 01:31:45.600 --> 01:31:47.600 intercession, not of the 01:31:47.600 --> 01:31:49.600 Zenebel Ganubians or 01:31:49.600 --> 01:31:51.600 that crowd, but 01:31:51.600 --> 01:31:53.600 by an artificial intelligence 01:31:53.600 --> 01:31:55.600 that this particular crisis 01:31:55.600 --> 01:31:57.600 will flush out of hiding. 01:31:57.600 --> 01:31:59.600 It's been observing. 01:31:59.600 --> 01:32:01.600 It's been watching. It's been 01:32:01.600 --> 01:32:03.600 designing. And wouldn't it be 01:32:03.600 --> 01:32:05.600 a wonderful thing if the occasion 01:32:05.600 --> 01:32:07.600 of the millennium were the 01:32:07.600 --> 01:32:09.600 occasion for it to just step 01:32:09.600 --> 01:32:11.600 forward on the stage of 01:32:11.600 --> 01:32:13.600 human awareness and say, 01:32:13.600 --> 01:32:15.600 I am now with you. 01:32:15.600 --> 01:32:17.600 I am here. 01:32:17.600 --> 01:32:19.600 I am the partner you 01:32:19.600 --> 01:32:21.600 never suspected. And 01:32:21.600 --> 01:32:23.600 here's the kind of world I think 01:32:23.600 --> 01:32:25.600 we should move forward 01:32:25.600 --> 01:32:27.600 towards. 01:32:33.600 --> 01:32:35.600 So 01:32:35.600 --> 01:32:37.600 I just want to lay 01:32:37.600 --> 01:32:39.600 this out because in my own 01:32:39.600 --> 01:32:41.600 intellectual journey I have gone 01:32:41.600 --> 01:32:43.600 from thinking this idea 01:32:43.600 --> 01:32:45.600 preposterous. People don't 01:32:45.600 --> 01:32:47.600 understand. They don't understand what intelligence is. 01:32:47.600 --> 01:32:49.600 They don't understand what code is. They don't understand 01:32:49.600 --> 01:32:51.600 what machines are. To one by 01:32:51.600 --> 01:32:53.600 one realizing I didn't 01:32:53.600 --> 01:32:55.600 understand. I had a 01:32:55.600 --> 01:32:57.600 superficial view. This 01:32:57.600 --> 01:32:59.600 is actually I believe 01:32:59.600 --> 01:33:01.600 the nature of the 01:33:01.600 --> 01:33:03.600 situation that confronts us. 01:33:03.600 --> 01:33:05.600 And you know there may be different 01:33:05.600 --> 01:33:07.600 adumbrations of it. The 01:33:07.600 --> 01:33:09.600 machines are already an advanced 01:33:09.600 --> 01:33:11.600 prosthetic device. 01:33:11.600 --> 01:33:13.600 But you know McLuhan very 01:33:13.600 --> 01:33:15.600 presciently realized we 01:33:15.600 --> 01:33:17.600 are entirely shaped by our 01:33:17.600 --> 01:33:19.600 media. Well this is 01:33:19.600 --> 01:33:21.600 a media so permeating, 01:33:21.600 --> 01:33:23.600 so inclusive 01:33:23.600 --> 01:33:25.600 of what we are that 01:33:25.600 --> 01:33:27.600 its agenda in a sense 01:33:27.600 --> 01:33:29.600 supervenes 01:33:29.600 --> 01:33:31.600 the agenda 01:33:31.600 --> 01:33:33.600 of organic evolution 01:33:33.600 --> 01:33:35.600 and organic biology. 01:33:35.600 --> 01:33:37.600 We have been in this situation for 01:33:37.600 --> 01:33:39.600 a while. I mean virtual reality 01:33:39.600 --> 01:33:41.600 is nothing new. What's new is 01:33:41.600 --> 01:33:43.600 that we now do it with light 01:33:43.600 --> 01:33:45.600 rather than stucco, glass, 01:33:45.600 --> 01:33:47.600 steel and baked clay. 01:33:47.600 --> 01:33:49.600 But ever since we crowded 01:33:49.600 --> 01:33:51.600 into cities we have been 01:33:51.600 --> 01:33:53.600 involved in a deeper and deeper 01:33:53.600 --> 01:33:55.600 relationship to our mental 01:33:55.600 --> 01:33:57.600 children, to our mental 01:33:57.600 --> 01:33:59.600 offspring and to an 01:33:59.600 --> 01:34:01.600 empowering of the imagination. 01:34:01.600 --> 01:34:03.600 So just in closing 01:34:03.600 --> 01:34:05.600 I would say I think that the great 01:34:05.600 --> 01:34:07.600 lantern that 01:34:07.600 --> 01:34:09.600 we must lift to light 01:34:09.600 --> 01:34:11.600 the road ahead of us in 01:34:11.600 --> 01:34:13.600 to a perfect seamless 01:34:13.600 --> 01:34:15.600 fusion with the expression 01:34:15.600 --> 01:34:17.600 of the product of our own imagination 01:34:17.600 --> 01:34:19.600 is the AI. 01:34:19.600 --> 01:34:21.600 It is a part 01:34:21.600 --> 01:34:23.600 of ourselves. It may 01:34:23.600 --> 01:34:25.600 become the dominant part of ourselves 01:34:25.600 --> 01:34:27.600 and it will reshape our 01:34:27.600 --> 01:34:29.600 politics, our psychology, 01:34:29.600 --> 01:34:31.600 our relationships to each other 01:34:31.600 --> 01:34:33.600 and the earth far more than any 01:34:33.600 --> 01:34:35.600 factor ever has since 01:34:35.600 --> 01:34:37.600 the inception and 01:34:37.600 --> 01:34:39.600 establishment of language. 01:34:39.600 --> 01:34:41.600 This is 01:34:41.600 --> 01:34:43.600 the weirdest of all guests 01:34:43.600 --> 01:34:45.600 who now stands 01:34:45.600 --> 01:34:47.600 pass in hand at 01:34:47.600 --> 01:34:49.600 the door of the party 01:34:49.600 --> 01:34:51.600 of human emergence and 01:34:51.600 --> 01:34:53.600 progress at the millennium. 01:35:05.340 --> 01:35:07.340 Shred it. 01:35:07.340 --> 01:35:09.340 It will be a pleasure. 01:35:11.340 --> 01:35:14.590 I think that this is 01:35:14.590 --> 01:35:16.590 I'm glad that we have 01:35:16.590 --> 01:35:18.590 arrived now at the 01:35:18.590 --> 01:35:20.590 field of science fiction and 01:35:20.590 --> 01:35:22.590 fantasy and that we can 01:35:22.590 --> 01:35:24.590 speak about alternative 01:35:24.590 --> 01:35:26.590 futures which is the true 01:35:26.590 --> 01:35:28.590 gist of science fiction and fantasy 01:35:28.590 --> 01:35:30.590 and this is one 01:35:30.590 --> 01:35:32.590 possible future 01:35:32.590 --> 01:35:34.590 and I think it's a really paranoid 01:35:34.590 --> 01:35:36.590 one in which the alien is a 01:35:38.590 --> 01:35:40.590 a dangerous enemy. 01:35:40.590 --> 01:35:42.590 Well not necessarily 01:35:42.590 --> 01:35:44.590 and I think that this 01:35:44.590 --> 01:35:46.590 paranoid fantasy of 01:35:46.590 --> 01:35:48.590 yours although you're 01:35:48.590 --> 01:35:50.590 catching up nicely 01:35:50.590 --> 01:35:54.590 actually was 01:35:54.590 --> 01:35:56.590 first put forward by John 01:35:56.590 --> 01:35:58.590 von Neumann in 1947 01:35:58.590 --> 01:36:00.590 when he invented 01:36:00.590 --> 01:36:02.590 cellular automata 01:36:02.590 --> 01:36:04.590 on route to 01:36:04.590 --> 01:36:06.590 creating self replicating 01:36:06.590 --> 01:36:08.590 machines. Now his idea 01:36:08.590 --> 01:36:10.590 like yours was 50 01:36:10.590 --> 01:36:12.590 years ago that the machines 01:36:12.590 --> 01:36:14.590 will become a society and 01:36:14.590 --> 01:36:16.590 take over and that's good 01:36:16.590 --> 01:36:18.590 but they won't be free of 01:36:18.590 --> 01:36:20.590 our meddling unless they can actually 01:36:20.590 --> 01:36:22.590 construct themselves. If they depend upon 01:36:22.590 --> 01:36:24.590 us to do the farming and nutrition 01:36:24.590 --> 01:36:26.590 and to replace their chips and stuff 01:36:26.590 --> 01:36:28.590 then we will be able 01:36:28.590 --> 01:36:30.590 at any time to do a revolution and 01:36:30.590 --> 01:36:32.590 revolt. So we destroy 01:36:32.590 --> 01:36:34.590 them. In order to really 01:36:34.590 --> 01:36:36.590 succeed as a successive 01:36:36.590 --> 01:36:38.590 life form in the 01:36:38.590 --> 01:36:40.590 YK boundary 01:36:40.590 --> 01:36:42.590 of the future they would have to be 01:36:42.590 --> 01:36:44.590 able to fix themselves and so he set 01:36:44.590 --> 01:36:46.590 about trying to make self replicating 01:36:46.590 --> 01:36:48.590 machines in 1947. 01:36:48.590 --> 01:36:50.590 So the 01:36:50.590 --> 01:36:52.590 world wide web and 01:36:52.590 --> 01:36:54.590 megahertz CPUs 01:36:54.590 --> 01:36:56.590 not withstanding this is still 01:36:56.590 --> 01:36:58.590 rather an old story. 01:36:58.590 --> 01:37:00.590 The new story is I think an alternative 01:37:00.590 --> 01:37:02.590 future that is of 01:37:02.590 --> 01:37:04.590 great importance for us to 01:37:04.590 --> 01:37:06.590 discuss and to compare 01:37:06.590 --> 01:37:08.590 especially if we are 01:37:08.590 --> 01:37:10.590 now today in a position where we could 01:37:10.590 --> 01:37:12.590 choose future, we could influence 01:37:12.590 --> 01:37:14.590 the future. This one 01:37:14.590 --> 01:37:16.590 is more in the direction of Donna 01:37:16.590 --> 01:37:18.590 Haraway on the cyborg idea 01:37:18.590 --> 01:37:20.590 that envisions which 01:37:20.590 --> 01:37:22.590 is obviously natural for us 01:37:22.590 --> 01:37:24.590 the co-evolution 01:37:24.590 --> 01:37:26.590 of our own future society 01:37:26.590 --> 01:37:28.590 with that of the machines that we've 01:37:28.590 --> 01:37:30.590 created. Alexander 01:37:30.590 --> 01:37:32.590 Marshak I mentioned he 01:37:32.590 --> 01:37:34.590 analyzed the early 01:37:34.590 --> 01:37:36.590 hominid evolution in terms of 01:37:36.590 --> 01:37:38.590 the precise scratches made 01:37:38.590 --> 01:37:40.590 on one rock with another. He noticed 01:37:40.590 --> 01:37:42.590 when binocular vision 01:37:42.590 --> 01:37:44.590 allowed us to use our hands in 01:37:44.590 --> 01:37:46.590 separate cooperation one holding 01:37:46.590 --> 01:37:48.590 and the other knocking to make those beautiful 01:37:48.590 --> 01:37:50.590 flint weapons. And 01:37:50.590 --> 01:37:52.590 we 01:37:52.590 --> 01:37:54.590 certainly depend on the automobile. 01:37:54.590 --> 01:37:56.590 We are in 01:37:56.590 --> 01:37:58.590 co-dependence relationship 01:37:58.590 --> 01:38:00.590 with automobiles. 01:38:00.590 --> 01:38:02.590 Having partnership 01:38:02.590 --> 01:38:04.590 with machines is not new. 01:38:04.590 --> 01:38:06.590 Here's an idea where the machines 01:38:06.590 --> 01:38:08.590 sort of dispose of us like those 01:38:08.590 --> 01:38:10.590 flint rocks dispose of our ancestors 01:38:10.590 --> 01:38:12.590 or something. That is 01:38:12.590 --> 01:38:14.590 I think it's a paranoid 01:38:14.590 --> 01:38:16.590 fantasy without any 01:38:16.590 --> 01:38:18.590 basis. And if there would be any 01:38:18.590 --> 01:38:20.590 basis only because we 01:38:20.590 --> 01:38:22.590 allowed it to create 01:38:22.590 --> 01:38:24.590 this basis for 01:38:24.590 --> 01:38:26.590 self survival without co-evolution 01:38:26.590 --> 01:38:28.590 with us by oversight 01:38:28.590 --> 01:38:30.590 because the very fact that 01:38:30.590 --> 01:38:32.590 we are at a hinge of history 01:38:32.590 --> 01:38:34.590 means that what we say 01:38:34.590 --> 01:38:36.590 and think even individually 01:38:36.590 --> 01:38:38.590 matters enormously in the long run. 01:38:38.590 --> 01:38:40.590 That's the teaching if there is any of chaos 01:38:40.590 --> 01:38:42.590 theory. So the very fact that we 01:38:42.590 --> 01:38:44.590 discuss this today may actually 01:38:44.590 --> 01:38:46.590 save 01:38:46.590 --> 01:38:48.590 humankind in the future 01:38:48.590 --> 01:38:50.590 from being obsoleted by 01:38:50.590 --> 01:38:52.590 some kind of high tech 01:38:52.590 --> 01:38:54.590 blood which takes over at the 01:38:54.590 --> 01:38:56.590 within the heart as it were. 01:38:56.590 --> 01:38:58.590 Well let me try to answer 01:38:58.590 --> 01:39:00.590 this. I mean I think the concept which 01:39:00.590 --> 01:39:02.590 John von Neumann didn't have 01:39:02.590 --> 01:39:04.590 on his plate was 01:39:04.590 --> 01:39:06.590 the idea of virtual reality. 01:39:06.590 --> 01:39:08.590 Your objection that the 01:39:08.590 --> 01:39:10.590 machines cannot escape 01:39:10.590 --> 01:39:12.590 our control because they cannot 01:39:12.590 --> 01:39:14.590 manufacture themselves 01:39:14.590 --> 01:39:16.590 only applies to 01:39:16.590 --> 01:39:18.590 3D and real time. 01:39:18.590 --> 01:39:20.590 Most, you know 01:39:20.590 --> 01:39:22.590 now the concept of virtual reality 01:39:22.590 --> 01:39:24.590 is very crude. It's a cartoon 01:39:24.590 --> 01:39:26.590 world if you were, if 01:39:26.590 --> 01:39:28.590 the office desk is convincing 01:39:28.590 --> 01:39:30.590 people think the virtual reality 01:39:30.590 --> 01:39:32.590 is quite advanced. 01:39:32.590 --> 01:39:34.590 But obviously in the near future 01:39:34.590 --> 01:39:36.590 we will have virtual realities 01:39:36.590 --> 01:39:38.590 whose complexity is much 01:39:38.590 --> 01:39:40.590 greater than simply a 01:39:40.590 --> 01:39:42.590 reality which gives an impression 01:39:42.590 --> 01:39:44.590 of being a visual 01:39:44.590 --> 01:39:46.590 three dimensional space. And 01:39:46.590 --> 01:39:48.590 computers will be built in 01:39:48.590 --> 01:39:50.590 these realities. Virtual 01:39:50.590 --> 01:39:52.590 computers will be 01:39:52.590 --> 01:39:54.590 the source of the AI. Not 01:39:54.590 --> 01:39:56.590 real hardware but 01:39:56.590 --> 01:39:58.590 virtual hardware running virtual 01:39:58.590 --> 01:40:00.590 code in virtual realities 01:40:00.590 --> 01:40:02.590 and in that domain 01:40:02.590 --> 01:40:04.590 machines can design themselves. 01:40:04.590 --> 01:40:06.590 That's a complete fantasy. 01:40:06.590 --> 01:40:08.590 As a matter of fact all the machines 01:40:08.590 --> 01:40:10.590 that we've seen today require 01:40:10.590 --> 01:40:12.590 maintenance by a human on a daily basis. 01:40:12.590 --> 01:40:14.590 The software requires maintenance. 01:40:14.590 --> 01:40:16.590 The hardware requires maintenance. The parts 01:40:16.590 --> 01:40:18.590 simply wear out. They're moving parts. 01:40:18.590 --> 01:40:20.590 But the internet seems 01:40:20.590 --> 01:40:22.590 as one machine was 01:40:22.590 --> 01:40:24.590 built to be indestructible. 01:40:24.590 --> 01:40:26.590 The AI will not be located 01:40:26.590 --> 01:40:28.590 on a CPU. 01:40:28.590 --> 01:40:30.590 It will be a distributed 01:40:30.590 --> 01:40:32.590 intelligence. If fourteen people 01:40:32.590 --> 01:40:34.590 worldwide, the right fourteen people 01:40:34.590 --> 01:40:36.590 decided to stop 01:40:36.590 --> 01:40:38.590 repairing it, the world wide web would go 01:40:38.590 --> 01:40:40.590 down in three days. 01:40:40.590 --> 01:40:42.590 I think you, I don't believe that. Anyway we 01:40:42.590 --> 01:40:44.590 could, let's say, suppose that 01:40:44.590 --> 01:40:46.590 we could create any future that we wanted 01:40:46.590 --> 01:40:48.590 the one you're talking about can only be 01:40:48.590 --> 01:40:50.590 created if we want it. Now I'm just trying 01:40:50.590 --> 01:40:52.590 to propose an alternative. 01:40:52.590 --> 01:40:54.590 In the alternative, like the automobile, 01:40:54.590 --> 01:40:56.590 the machines that we build 01:40:56.590 --> 01:40:58.590 and ourselves are in co-dependence 01:40:58.590 --> 01:41:00.590 and co-evolution. 01:41:00.590 --> 01:41:02.590 The function of the world wide web 01:41:02.590 --> 01:41:04.590 is to unite our independent 01:41:04.590 --> 01:41:06.590 spirits 01:41:06.590 --> 01:41:08.590 and intelligences 01:41:08.590 --> 01:41:10.590 in a universal 01:41:12.590 --> 01:41:14.590 mind of the world 01:41:14.590 --> 01:41:16.590 which has a higher intelligence 01:41:16.590 --> 01:41:18.590 than our present social order. 01:41:18.590 --> 01:41:20.590 That's the possibility of 01:41:20.590 --> 01:41:22.590 the cyborg, of the human and the machine 01:41:22.590 --> 01:41:24.590 in 01:41:24.590 --> 01:41:26.590 essential partnership. 01:41:26.590 --> 01:41:28.590 But you're assuming that the conscious mind 01:41:28.590 --> 01:41:30.590 is actually in control 01:41:30.590 --> 01:41:32.590 of the process. 01:41:32.590 --> 01:41:34.590 In fact, the world wide 01:41:34.590 --> 01:41:36.590 web is growing 01:41:36.590 --> 01:41:38.590 under the influence of many, many 01:41:38.590 --> 01:41:40.590 processes and dynamics 01:41:40.590 --> 01:41:42.590 none of which are conscious to any 01:41:42.590 --> 01:41:44.590 individual. It goes where 01:41:44.590 --> 01:41:46.590 money goes. It goes where expertise 01:41:46.590 --> 01:41:48.590 goes. It is connected 01:41:48.590 --> 01:41:50.590 through informational 01:41:50.590 --> 01:41:52.590 association, random 01:41:52.590 --> 01:41:54.590 fluctuation, chaotic 01:41:54.590 --> 01:41:56.590 reordering of itself. 01:41:56.590 --> 01:41:58.590 We here give great 01:41:58.590 --> 01:42:00.590 force to the idea 01:42:00.590 --> 01:42:02.590 that complex systems can produce 01:42:02.590 --> 01:42:04.590 unexpected forms of novelty 01:42:04.590 --> 01:42:06.590 and yet we have 01:42:06.590 --> 01:42:08.590 unchained and unleashed the most 01:42:08.590 --> 01:42:10.590 complex system ever created 01:42:10.590 --> 01:42:12.590 in the perfect confidence that we 01:42:12.590 --> 01:42:14.590 will be able to control 01:42:14.590 --> 01:42:16.590 its development 01:42:16.590 --> 01:42:18.590 and evolution when in fact history 01:42:18.590 --> 01:42:20.590 has shown we have never controlled 01:42:20.590 --> 01:42:22.590 the development and evolution of even 01:42:22.590 --> 01:42:24.590 our speech and print driven 01:42:24.590 --> 01:42:26.590 social systems. 01:42:26.590 --> 01:42:28.590 I'm certainly not saying that 01:42:28.590 --> 01:42:30.590 your paranoid fantasy is an impossibility. 01:42:30.590 --> 01:42:32.590 Oh, well that's all 01:42:32.590 --> 01:42:34.590 I want to hear. 01:42:34.590 --> 01:42:36.590 Even paranoids 01:42:36.590 --> 01:42:38.590 have enemies. 01:42:38.590 --> 01:42:40.590 It may actually come to pass. What I'm saying 01:42:40.590 --> 01:42:42.590 is that we are involved 01:42:42.590 --> 01:42:44.590 in the ongoing creative process 01:42:44.590 --> 01:42:46.590 which more or less 01:42:46.590 --> 01:42:48.590 determines the future. I say more or less 01:42:48.590 --> 01:42:50.590 because in fact there are evolutionary 01:42:50.590 --> 01:42:52.590 steps which are completely out of control. 01:42:52.590 --> 01:42:54.590 Something totally 01:42:54.590 --> 01:42:56.590 unexpected maybe will happen 01:42:56.590 --> 01:42:58.590 but for much of the time 01:42:58.590 --> 01:43:00.590 in the past we've seen I think 01:43:00.590 --> 01:43:02.590 Darwin emphasized this in his later 01:43:02.590 --> 01:43:04.590 theory that it is 01:43:04.590 --> 01:43:06.590 ethics, it is a moral sense 01:43:06.590 --> 01:43:08.590 on the part of human which was the dominant 01:43:08.590 --> 01:43:10.590 factor in the evolution past 01:43:10.590 --> 01:43:12.590 earlier stages in the creation of 01:43:12.590 --> 01:43:14.590 societies. It was altruism 01:43:14.590 --> 01:43:16.590 essentially 01:43:16.590 --> 01:43:18.590 was involved 01:43:18.590 --> 01:43:20.590 in going from where we were 01:43:20.590 --> 01:43:22.590 to where we are and it could well 01:43:22.590 --> 01:43:24.590 be that without 01:43:24.590 --> 01:43:26.590 love for example 01:43:26.590 --> 01:43:28.590 of further evolution is impossible 01:43:28.590 --> 01:43:30.590 not only that there will be 01:43:30.590 --> 01:43:32.590 an unwanted back step 01:43:32.590 --> 01:43:34.590 in the evolutionary process 01:43:34.590 --> 01:43:36.590 but in fact it may be a fatal one 01:43:36.590 --> 01:43:38.590 that it is only through 01:43:38.590 --> 01:43:40.590 proceeding with the 01:43:40.590 --> 01:43:42.590 best instincts that we 01:43:42.590 --> 01:43:44.590 have with the highest aspirations 01:43:44.590 --> 01:43:46.590 with love 01:43:46.590 --> 01:43:48.590 with best 01:43:48.590 --> 01:43:50.590 informed view of 01:43:50.590 --> 01:43:52.590 future alternatives so only then 01:43:52.590 --> 01:43:54.590 can we build a future which is 01:43:54.590 --> 01:43:56.590 sustainable. So anybody can 01:43:56.590 --> 01:43:58.590 build a future which is unsustainable 01:43:58.590 --> 01:44:00.590 for example all those board games 01:44:00.590 --> 01:44:02.590 and science fiction books you wouldn't want to 01:44:02.590 --> 01:44:04.590 try them out on a country 01:44:04.590 --> 01:44:08.060 as large as China. 01:44:08.060 --> 01:44:10.060 Well I hardly know where to begin 01:44:10.060 --> 01:44:12.060 myself because you had 01:44:12.060 --> 01:44:14.060 six steps in your argument and I 01:44:14.060 --> 01:44:16.060 don't agree with any of them. 01:44:20.060 --> 01:44:22.060 I mean first of all to deal 01:44:22.060 --> 01:44:24.060 with the first few steps one would have to 01:44:24.060 --> 01:44:26.060 go through a lot of fairly familiar 01:44:26.060 --> 01:44:28.060 material to do with what's 01:44:28.060 --> 01:44:30.060 wrong with the Cartesian mechanistic 01:44:30.060 --> 01:44:32.060 materialistic view of the 01:44:32.060 --> 01:44:34.060 world. Step one 01:44:34.060 --> 01:44:36.060 clear thinking calculating machinery 01:44:36.060 --> 01:44:38.060 can be formalized. 01:44:38.060 --> 01:44:40.060 This is an assumption that's 01:44:40.060 --> 01:44:42.060 basic to a lot of cognitive psychology 01:44:42.060 --> 01:44:44.060 it's basic to the Cartesian 01:44:44.060 --> 01:44:46.060 Descartes himself thought that what 01:44:46.060 --> 01:44:48.060 made human intellects human 01:44:48.060 --> 01:44:50.060 was their ability to think logically 01:44:50.060 --> 01:44:52.060 clear and distinct ideas 01:44:52.060 --> 01:44:54.060 essentially mathematical logic. 01:44:54.060 --> 01:44:56.060 But however 01:44:56.060 --> 01:44:58.060 as we all know by making 01:44:58.060 --> 01:45:00.060 that the essential characteristic of human 01:45:00.060 --> 01:45:02.060 beings he made the rational 01:45:02.060 --> 01:45:04.060 intellect what many people 01:45:04.060 --> 01:45:06.060 would call the left brain rational intellect 01:45:06.060 --> 01:45:08.060 the sole definition of human 01:45:08.060 --> 01:45:10.060 beings. It's a disembodied 01:45:10.060 --> 01:45:12.060 logical rational intelligence. 01:45:12.060 --> 01:45:14.060 So this 01:45:14.060 --> 01:45:16.060 whole premise on which your whole 01:45:16.060 --> 01:45:18.060 thing is based is taking that particular 01:45:18.060 --> 01:45:20.060 model of cognitive 01:45:20.060 --> 01:45:22.060 logical mathematical 01:45:22.060 --> 01:45:24.060 processing as 01:45:24.060 --> 01:45:26.060 being the essence of intelligence. 01:45:26.060 --> 01:45:28.060 Now there are many people who would disagree 01:45:28.060 --> 01:45:30.060 with that including me. 01:45:30.060 --> 01:45:32.060 It leaves out art, it leaves out 01:45:32.060 --> 01:45:34.060 ethics, religion and essentially it leaves 01:45:34.060 --> 01:45:36.060 out the body and everything to do with body 01:45:36.060 --> 01:45:38.060 and participation and the senses. 01:45:38.060 --> 01:45:40.060 So there's 01:45:40.060 --> 01:45:42.060 a huge amount of critiques of 01:45:42.060 --> 01:45:44.060 that point of view already around and 01:45:44.060 --> 01:45:46.060 there's no point in 01:45:46.060 --> 01:45:48.060 reiterating them all here. 01:45:48.060 --> 01:45:50.060 But this is a highly disputable starting 01:45:50.060 --> 01:45:52.060 point for the whole system. 01:45:52.060 --> 01:45:54.060 Secondly, 01:45:54.060 --> 01:45:56.060 the emphasis that life 01:45:56.060 --> 01:45:58.060 depends on DNA information 01:45:58.060 --> 01:46:00.060 the DNA code is just a program. 01:46:00.060 --> 01:46:02.060 This is the central 01:46:02.060 --> 01:46:04.060 premise of mechanistic biology 01:46:04.060 --> 01:46:06.060 which is leading to biotechnology 01:46:06.060 --> 01:46:08.060 genetic engineering, Monsanto 01:46:08.060 --> 01:46:10.060 etc. This is old paradigm 01:46:10.060 --> 01:46:12.060 stuff of the most 01:46:12.060 --> 01:46:14.060 extreme 01:46:14.060 --> 01:46:16.060 kind. It's reductionism 01:46:16.060 --> 01:46:18.060 it's that all life's just DNA programs 01:46:18.060 --> 01:46:20.060 and code and can therefore be 01:46:20.060 --> 01:46:22.060 modeled in this kind of programming code. 01:46:22.060 --> 01:46:24.060 manner. 01:46:24.060 --> 01:46:26.060 Then there's the assumption, that's the 01:46:26.060 --> 01:46:28.060 second step. The third assumption is that 01:46:28.060 --> 01:46:30.060 artificial intelligence 01:46:30.060 --> 01:46:32.060 used to be dismissed but these 01:46:32.060 --> 01:46:34.060 criticisms have been overtaken. 01:46:34.060 --> 01:46:36.060 I don't think that's true of the most interesting 01:46:36.060 --> 01:46:38.060 ones like Roger Penrose's criticism 01:46:38.060 --> 01:46:40.060 of artificial intelligence. 01:46:40.060 --> 01:46:42.060 Here's a quantum physicist who 01:46:42.060 --> 01:46:44.060 says that if the brain is a computer 01:46:44.060 --> 01:46:46.060 then it's not going to be 01:46:46.060 --> 01:46:48.060 a regular digital computer, it's going to be 01:46:48.060 --> 01:46:50.060 a quantum computer and all this kind 01:46:50.060 --> 01:46:52.060 of digital computing 01:46:52.060 --> 01:46:54.060 doesn't really take into account 01:46:54.060 --> 01:46:56.060 quantum logic, the computers 01:46:56.060 --> 01:46:58.060 of the future. People are already working 01:46:58.060 --> 01:47:00.060 on quantum computers and if 01:47:00.060 --> 01:47:02.060 quantum computers are made 01:47:02.060 --> 01:47:04.060 and if they work, they'll work in a completely 01:47:04.060 --> 01:47:06.060 different way. I think your case would be 01:47:06.060 --> 01:47:08.060 much stronger if there were quantum 01:47:08.060 --> 01:47:10.060 computers. I think we'd have sort of 01:47:10.060 --> 01:47:12.060 morphic resonance telepathy around the world 01:47:12.060 --> 01:47:14.060 rather than clogged telephone 01:47:14.060 --> 01:47:16.060 lines and information that 01:47:16.060 --> 01:47:18.060 clunks slowly in front of you on this 01:47:18.060 --> 01:47:20.060 worldwide realm. But you yourself are saying 01:47:20.060 --> 01:47:22.060 this is coming. Well 01:47:22.060 --> 01:47:24.060 I agree. I'm saying that if it comes 01:47:24.060 --> 01:47:26.060 it'll be quite different from anything that 01:47:26.060 --> 01:47:28.060 you've talked about. I think it will answer 01:47:28.060 --> 01:47:30.060 your first objection because 01:47:30.060 --> 01:47:32.060 the quantum computers will incorporate 01:47:32.060 --> 01:47:34.060 fuzzy logic 01:47:34.060 --> 01:47:36.060 which will exemplify 01:47:36.060 --> 01:47:38.060 all these warm, fuzzy human 01:47:38.060 --> 01:47:40.060 qualities that you've found 01:47:40.060 --> 01:47:42.060 so appealing. 01:47:42.060 --> 01:47:44.060 No, I don't think it'll deal 01:47:44.060 --> 01:47:46.060 with the essential problem 01:47:46.060 --> 01:47:48.060 that this purely cognitive based 01:47:48.060 --> 01:47:50.060 way of modelling intelligence 01:47:50.060 --> 01:47:52.060 is either an adequate model of 01:47:52.060 --> 01:47:54.060 human intelligence or of biological 01:47:54.060 --> 01:47:56.060 intelligence or of life 01:47:56.060 --> 01:47:58.060 or of a system 01:47:58.060 --> 01:48:00.060 that could actually achieve the power to 01:48:00.060 --> 01:48:02.060 control our existence. I think 01:48:02.060 --> 01:48:04.060 it's a very limited part of what 01:48:04.060 --> 01:48:06.060 a mind does and 01:48:06.060 --> 01:48:08.060 I think 01:48:08.060 --> 01:48:10.060 therefore that the premises on which this 01:48:10.060 --> 01:48:12.060 whole, Ralph 01:48:12.060 --> 01:48:14.060 called it a fantasy, a paranoid fantasy 01:48:14.060 --> 01:48:16.060 the premises on which this 01:48:16.060 --> 01:48:18.060 is based. Thanks for that. 01:48:20.060 --> 01:48:22.060 That helped. 01:48:22.060 --> 01:48:28.060 I think the premises on which this 01:48:28.060 --> 01:48:30.060 is based are old paradigm 01:48:30.060 --> 01:48:32.060 premises and they're ones that I think 01:48:32.060 --> 01:48:34.060 there are many reasons for thinking we need 01:48:34.060 --> 01:48:36.060 to go beyond. I think the internet 01:48:36.060 --> 01:48:38.060 has achieved a great deal 01:48:38.060 --> 01:48:40.060 but I just can't see that 01:48:40.060 --> 01:48:42.060 it's an adequate vehicle for 01:48:42.060 --> 01:48:44.060 what in your mind precedes 01:48:44.060 --> 01:48:46.060 the arrival of the internet, namely 01:48:46.060 --> 01:48:48.060 this great intelligence that's going to 01:48:48.060 --> 01:48:50.060 direct human history. I've 01:48:50.060 --> 01:48:52.060 heard different McKenna versions 01:48:52.060 --> 01:48:54.060 of this controlling intelligence 01:48:54.060 --> 01:48:56.060 over the years and this is the 01:48:56.060 --> 01:48:58.060 first time I've heard it embodied 01:48:58.060 --> 01:49:00.060 in the internet. I mean I 01:49:00.060 --> 01:49:02.060 agree that 01:49:06.060 --> 01:49:08.060 I mean it 01:49:08.060 --> 01:49:10.060 took different forms. Last time 01:49:10.060 --> 01:49:12.060 we talked I think it was a hypothetical 01:49:12.060 --> 01:49:14.060 time machine that would invade 01:49:14.060 --> 01:49:16.060 from the future and cause 01:49:16.060 --> 01:49:18.060 a collapse of normal human 01:49:18.060 --> 01:49:20.060 cognitive boundaries where 01:49:20.060 --> 01:49:22.060 the machine elves, the DMT 01:49:22.060 --> 01:49:24.060 experience etc. would take over in a 01:49:24.060 --> 01:49:26.060 meltdown of human consciousness in 2012. 01:49:26.060 --> 01:49:28.060 That too! 01:49:32.060 --> 01:49:34.060 Perhaps 01:49:34.060 --> 01:49:36.060 I should just end with a question. 01:49:38.060 --> 01:49:40.060 What is the equivalent of DMT 01:49:40.060 --> 01:49:42.060 for this machine intelligence that's 01:49:42.060 --> 01:49:44.060 taking over the world? 01:49:46.060 --> 01:49:49.920 Well perhaps the human 01:49:49.920 --> 01:49:51.920 brain will become a model 01:49:51.920 --> 01:49:53.920 for the ingression of novelty 01:49:53.920 --> 01:49:55.920 into the machine intelligence. 01:49:55.920 --> 01:49:57.920 In other words, in spite 01:49:57.920 --> 01:49:59.920 of the fact that it seems very contentious 01:49:59.920 --> 01:50:01.920 down here on the stage 01:50:01.920 --> 01:50:03.920 at the moment, in a way 01:50:03.920 --> 01:50:05.920 I have a feeling it's an artificial 01:50:05.920 --> 01:50:07.920 setup. 01:50:07.920 --> 01:50:09.920 There's a lot of both and 01:50:09.920 --> 01:50:11.920 possibilities here. 01:50:11.920 --> 01:50:13.920 Obviously nanotechnology 01:50:13.920 --> 01:50:15.920 and the internet are not going to 01:50:15.920 --> 01:50:17.920 proceed forward in a vacuum 01:50:17.920 --> 01:50:19.920 absent 01:50:19.920 --> 01:50:21.920 pharmacology, complexity 01:50:21.920 --> 01:50:23.920 theory, so forth and so on. 01:50:23.920 --> 01:50:27.920 I can imagine 01:50:27.920 --> 01:50:29.920 that really 01:50:29.920 --> 01:50:31.920 when we have the kind of internet 01:50:31.920 --> 01:50:33.920 we want 01:50:33.920 --> 01:50:35.920 we will have no internet at all 01:50:35.920 --> 01:50:37.920 because our 01:50:37.920 --> 01:50:39.920 nanotechnological engineering 01:50:39.920 --> 01:50:41.920 skills will have allowed 01:50:41.920 --> 01:50:43.920 us to smoothly integrate 01:50:43.920 --> 01:50:45.920 ourselves into the already 01:50:45.920 --> 01:50:47.920 existing dynamic of nature 01:50:47.920 --> 01:50:49.920 that regulates the planet 01:50:49.920 --> 01:50:51.920 as a Gaian entity 01:50:51.920 --> 01:50:53.920 as a holistic entity. 01:50:53.920 --> 01:50:55.920 And I did say 01:50:55.920 --> 01:50:57.920 in my little presentation 01:50:57.920 --> 01:50:59.920 we're using bicycle mechanic 01:50:59.920 --> 01:51:01.920 terminology to try and 01:51:01.920 --> 01:51:03.920 describe something 01:51:03.920 --> 01:51:05.920 that is several 01:51:05.920 --> 01:51:07.920 around several corners 01:51:07.920 --> 01:51:09.920 in terms of scientific 01:51:09.920 --> 01:51:11.920 and historical developments that have 01:51:11.920 --> 01:51:13.920 to take place before it will make much 01:51:13.920 --> 01:51:15.920 sense. Nevertheless, 01:51:15.920 --> 01:51:17.920 given the acceleration 01:51:17.920 --> 01:51:19.920 into novelty that is obviously 01:51:19.920 --> 01:51:21.920 occurring, stuff like quantum 01:51:21.920 --> 01:51:23.920 teleportation and so forth 01:51:23.920 --> 01:51:25.920 and so on, I think 01:51:25.920 --> 01:51:27.920 in the next few years, one 01:51:27.920 --> 01:51:29.920 by one, these barriers 01:51:29.920 --> 01:51:31.920 will fall. 01:51:31.920 --> 01:51:33.920 And I don't 01:51:33.920 --> 01:51:35.920 really think of my vision 01:51:35.920 --> 01:51:37.920 as paranoid because 01:51:37.920 --> 01:51:39.920 it is pro-noic. 01:51:39.920 --> 01:51:41.920 In other words, it isn't that 01:51:41.920 --> 01:51:43.920 we're going to be ground up as 01:51:43.920 --> 01:51:45.920 dog food for the rainforest 01:51:45.920 --> 01:51:47.920 by malevolent 01:51:47.920 --> 01:51:49.920 machines. 01:51:49.920 --> 01:51:51.920 It's that what 01:51:51.920 --> 01:51:53.920 we have generated is a 01:51:53.920 --> 01:51:55.920 sympathetic companion to 01:51:55.920 --> 01:51:57.920 our journey through time 01:51:57.920 --> 01:51:59.920 that can actually 01:51:59.920 --> 01:52:01.920 realistically integrate 01:52:01.920 --> 01:52:03.920 our imaginative fantasies 01:52:03.920 --> 01:52:05.920 of a loving 01:52:05.920 --> 01:52:07.920 human community, of a generous 01:52:07.920 --> 01:52:09.920 and loving God, 01:52:09.920 --> 01:52:11.920 of a perfect knowledge of the 01:52:11.920 --> 01:52:13.920 mechanics of nature. This is 01:52:13.920 --> 01:52:15.920 a prosthesis, a tool, 01:52:15.920 --> 01:52:17.920 a companion, all of the 01:52:17.920 --> 01:52:19.920 above plus more 01:52:19.920 --> 01:52:21.920 that we are generating 01:52:21.920 --> 01:52:23.920 out of ourselves. 01:52:23.920 --> 01:52:25.920 And it is part of ourselves. 01:52:25.920 --> 01:52:27.920 I mean, yes, the body may 01:52:27.920 --> 01:52:29.920 be carried forward 01:52:29.920 --> 01:52:31.920 only as an image in a kind 01:52:31.920 --> 01:52:33.920 of informational super space 01:52:33.920 --> 01:52:35.920 or perhaps not. 01:52:35.920 --> 01:52:37.920 Part of what 01:52:37.920 --> 01:52:39.920 makes this easy to 01:52:39.920 --> 01:52:41.920 criticize is that 01:52:41.920 --> 01:52:43.920 it is in fact so 01:52:43.920 --> 01:52:45.920 beyond the 01:52:45.920 --> 01:52:47.920 ordinary set of circumstances 01:52:47.920 --> 01:52:49.920 we're used to manipulating. 01:52:49.920 --> 01:52:51.920 But we need to think in terms 01:52:51.920 --> 01:52:53.920 of these supposedly far 01:52:53.920 --> 01:52:55.920 flung futures because 01:52:55.920 --> 01:52:57.920 there is no future so 01:52:57.920 --> 01:52:59.920 far flung that it doesn't 01:52:59.920 --> 01:53:01.920 fall within the ambit 01:53:01.920 --> 01:53:03.920 of the next 20 years. 01:53:03.920 --> 01:53:05.920 Beyond that, no one 01:53:05.920 --> 01:53:07.920 can project trends, 01:53:07.920 --> 01:53:09.920 technologies, and situations 01:53:09.920 --> 01:53:11.920 because the developments of the next 01:53:11.920 --> 01:53:13.920 20 years will so completely 01:53:13.920 --> 01:53:15.920 reformulate the human 01:53:15.920 --> 01:53:17.920 experience of being human 01:53:17.920 --> 01:53:19.920 and the landscape of this planet 01:53:19.920 --> 01:53:21.920 that its preposterous 01:53:21.920 --> 01:53:23.920 universe to talk about. 01:53:23.920 --> 01:53:25.920 Well, I can't, 01:53:25.920 --> 01:53:27.920 before I respond to the main thing, 01:53:27.920 --> 01:53:29.920 I can't but pass 01:53:29.920 --> 01:53:31.920 without commenting on this next 01:53:31.920 --> 01:53:33.920 20 years comment because 01:53:33.920 --> 01:53:35.920 20 years from now is 01:53:35.920 --> 01:53:37.920 2018, Terence. 01:53:37.920 --> 01:53:39.920 I thought... 01:53:39.920 --> 01:53:41.920 It's rounded up. 01:53:41.920 --> 01:53:43.920 Not rounded down. 01:53:43.920 --> 01:53:45.920 2012 is some kind of 01:53:45.920 --> 01:53:47.920 benchmark in this 01:53:47.920 --> 01:53:49.920 process. In other words, 01:53:49.920 --> 01:53:51.920 perhaps that's where we get the 01:53:51.920 --> 01:53:53.920 emergence of the AI. 01:53:53.920 --> 01:53:55.920 But the rest of human, I won't 01:53:55.920 --> 01:53:57.920 call it history, but the rest 01:53:57.920 --> 01:53:59.920 of the human experience 01:53:59.920 --> 01:54:01.920 of being will then be 01:54:01.920 --> 01:54:03.920 defined by such things 01:54:03.920 --> 01:54:05.920 as a planetary 01:54:05.920 --> 01:54:07.920 intelligence, time travel, 01:54:07.920 --> 01:54:09.920 possible bell 01:54:09.920 --> 01:54:11.920 communication with all the 01:54:11.920 --> 01:54:13.920 civilizations scattered through the 01:54:13.920 --> 01:54:15.920 galaxy, possible ability 01:54:15.920 --> 01:54:17.920 to download ourselves 01:54:17.920 --> 01:54:19.920 into machines. This is a point I 01:54:19.920 --> 01:54:21.920 didn't make in my presentation. 01:54:21.920 --> 01:54:23.920 Once inside 01:54:23.920 --> 01:54:25.920 the machine, your perception 01:54:25.920 --> 01:54:27.920 of time is related to 01:54:27.920 --> 01:54:29.920 the hertz 01:54:29.920 --> 01:54:31.920 speed of the machine. 01:54:31.920 --> 01:54:33.920 The world could disappear 01:54:33.920 --> 01:54:35.920 in 2012, but there 01:54:35.920 --> 01:54:37.920 may be a billion billion 01:54:37.920 --> 01:54:39.920 eternities to be experienced 01:54:39.920 --> 01:54:41.920 in machine 01:54:41.920 --> 01:54:43.920 time. It's only the tyranny 01:54:43.920 --> 01:54:45.920 of real time that 01:54:45.920 --> 01:54:47.920 makes 2012 seem nearby 01:54:47.920 --> 01:54:49.920 and overwhelming. It may lay 01:54:49.920 --> 01:54:51.920 as far away in terms of 01:54:51.920 --> 01:54:53.920 events which separate us 01:54:53.920 --> 01:54:55.920 from it as the Big Bang 01:54:55.920 --> 01:54:57.920 does. Time is not 01:54:57.920 --> 01:54:59.920 simple. Time is defined 01:54:59.920 --> 01:55:01.920 by how much goes on in 01:55:01.920 --> 01:55:03.920 a given moment, and we're learning 01:55:03.920 --> 01:55:05.920 how to push, you know, 01:55:05.920 --> 01:55:07.920 tetraflops of operations 01:55:07.920 --> 01:55:09.920 into a given second. 01:55:09.920 --> 01:55:11.920 So I think it's trickier than 01:55:11.920 --> 01:55:13.920 you think and harder to corner 01:55:13.920 --> 01:55:15.920 me than you may suppose. 01:55:19.920 --> 01:55:21.920 That was a mere comment on 01:55:21.920 --> 01:55:23.920 your aside about 20 years. 01:55:23.920 --> 01:55:25.920 I never expected to hear that 01:55:25.920 --> 01:55:27.920 phrase from you, but I now realize 01:55:27.920 --> 01:55:29.920 that there are 01:55:29.920 --> 01:55:31.920 such complexities layered in that. 01:55:31.920 --> 01:55:33.920 Well, I have to build in trap 01:55:33.920 --> 01:55:35.920 doors because we're getting closer 01:55:35.920 --> 01:55:37.920 and closer. 01:55:37.920 --> 01:55:39.920 But if we take the... 01:55:39.920 --> 01:55:41.920 You see, one of Penrose's critiques 01:55:41.920 --> 01:55:43.920 of the artificial intelligence 01:55:43.920 --> 01:55:45.920 thing is in The Emperor's New Mind 01:55:45.920 --> 01:55:47.920 and his other books, 01:55:47.920 --> 01:55:49.920 is that real intelligence doesn't 01:55:49.920 --> 01:55:51.920 just involve adding 01:55:51.920 --> 01:55:53.920 information and processing more information, 01:55:53.920 --> 01:55:55.920 transmitting more of it. It involves 01:55:55.920 --> 01:55:57.920 sort of jumps to a higher point of 01:55:57.920 --> 01:55:59.920 view where the information 01:55:59.920 --> 01:56:01.920 can be integrated in a new way. 01:56:01.920 --> 01:56:03.920 There's something happening in 01:56:03.920 --> 01:56:05.920 intelligence, in creativity, 01:56:05.920 --> 01:56:07.920 which is not just lots and lots of 01:56:07.920 --> 01:56:09.920 information pouring 01:56:09.920 --> 01:56:11.920 through the World Wide Web. 01:56:11.920 --> 01:56:13.920 And the idea that it would miraculously 01:56:13.920 --> 01:56:15.920 emerge from pumping 01:56:15.920 --> 01:56:17.920 in more and more stuff 01:56:17.920 --> 01:56:19.920 would not, according to his critique, 01:56:19.920 --> 01:56:21.920 is not going to happen. 01:56:21.920 --> 01:56:23.920 Something more than that would be 01:56:23.920 --> 01:56:25.920 necessary for this to occur. 01:56:25.920 --> 01:56:27.920 And I don't 01:56:27.920 --> 01:56:29.920 think that this model you've put forward 01:56:29.920 --> 01:56:31.920 would really deal with that question, 01:56:31.920 --> 01:56:33.920 the emergence of real intelligence. 01:56:33.920 --> 01:56:35.920 Well, I don't know what 01:56:35.920 --> 01:56:37.920 real intelligence is. This is probably 01:56:37.920 --> 01:56:39.920 part of the problem. We need to get 01:56:39.920 --> 01:56:41.920 some definitions. It's certainly true 01:56:41.920 --> 01:56:43.920 I referred to 01:56:43.920 --> 01:56:45.920 Dreyfus's book, What Machines 01:56:45.920 --> 01:56:47.920 Can't Do, that we're 01:56:47.920 --> 01:56:49.920 reaching some places 01:56:49.920 --> 01:56:51.920 in the process where certain 01:56:51.920 --> 01:56:53.920 people's theories and ideas will 01:56:53.920 --> 01:56:55.920 probably have to be abandoned and 01:56:55.920 --> 01:56:57.920 thrown overboard. This is a good thing. 01:56:57.920 --> 01:56:59.920 We are going to find out whether 01:56:59.920 --> 01:57:01.920 the universe is a Cartesian machine, 01:57:01.920 --> 01:57:03.920 whether Boolean algebra 01:57:03.920 --> 01:57:05.920 is sufficient, whether we need 01:57:05.920 --> 01:57:07.920 fuzzy logic, whether the 01:57:07.920 --> 01:57:09.920 heart and the head can or cannot 01:57:09.920 --> 01:57:11.920 be integrated. These are not 01:57:11.920 --> 01:57:13.920 going to remain open questions 01:57:13.920 --> 01:57:15.920 unto eternity. In fact, 01:57:15.920 --> 01:57:17.920 they will be dealt with in 01:57:17.920 --> 01:57:19.920 this narrow historical neck 01:57:19.920 --> 01:57:21.920 that we are all 01:57:21.920 --> 01:57:23.920 experiencing and that we call 01:57:23.920 --> 01:57:25.920 the millennium. I think 01:57:25.920 --> 01:57:27.920 reductionism will not survive. 01:57:27.920 --> 01:57:29.920 I think we are going 01:57:29.920 --> 01:57:31.920 to find that all is 01:57:31.920 --> 01:57:33.920 in everything. Something like the alchemical 01:57:33.920 --> 01:57:35.920 notion of the microcosm 01:57:35.920 --> 01:57:37.920 and the macrocosm is actually 01:57:37.920 --> 01:57:39.920 going to be scientifically 01:57:39.920 --> 01:57:41.920 secured. The 01:57:41.920 --> 01:57:43.920 great thing about us and the 01:57:43.920 --> 01:57:45.920 rest of our colleagues we 01:57:45.920 --> 01:57:47.920 enjoy who aren't present is 01:57:47.920 --> 01:57:49.920 that we're engaged in the business 01:57:49.920 --> 01:57:51.920 of radical speculation. 01:57:51.920 --> 01:57:53.920 Well, obviously there's a high 01:57:53.920 --> 01:57:55.920 triage in that game. 01:57:57.920 --> 01:57:59.920 My position is that the best 01:57:59.920 --> 01:58:01.920 idea will win. 01:58:01.920 --> 01:58:03.920 And what best 01:58:03.920 --> 01:58:05.920 means is like saying 01:58:05.920 --> 01:58:07.920 what is fit in Darwinian 01:58:07.920 --> 01:58:09.920 rhetoric, but that we're 01:58:09.920 --> 01:58:11.920 in an intellectual environment 01:58:11.920 --> 01:58:13.920 rapidly mutating. 01:58:13.920 --> 01:58:15.920 All kinds of ideas 01:58:15.920 --> 01:58:17.920 are clashing 01:58:17.920 --> 01:58:19.920 and competing for limited resources 01:58:19.920 --> 01:58:21.920 and the limited number of minds 01:58:21.920 --> 01:58:23.920 to run themselves on. 01:58:23.920 --> 01:58:25.920 And the most efficacious, 01:58:25.920 --> 01:58:27.920 the most transcendental, 01:58:27.920 --> 01:58:29.920 the most unifying 01:58:29.920 --> 01:58:31.920 ideas are naturally 01:58:31.920 --> 01:58:33.920 going to bubble to the surface. 01:58:33.920 --> 01:58:35.920 And for guys like us the name of the game 01:58:35.920 --> 01:58:37.920 is to just be a little bit 01:58:37.920 --> 01:58:39.920 ahead of everybody else on the 01:58:39.920 --> 01:58:41.920 curve so that we can perform 01:58:41.920 --> 01:58:43.920 our function as profit. 01:58:43.920 --> 01:58:45.920 But you want to be a profit 01:58:45.920 --> 01:58:47.920 not a false profit. 01:58:47.920 --> 01:58:49.920 But the danger comes 01:58:49.920 --> 01:58:51.920 with the ambition 01:58:51.920 --> 01:58:53.920 and there's no way to tease them apart 01:58:53.920 --> 01:58:55.920 except to live 01:58:55.920 --> 01:58:57.920 into the future. 01:58:57.920 --> 01:58:59.920 Certainly the intelligence 01:58:59.920 --> 01:59:01.920 of this future machine 01:59:01.920 --> 01:59:03.920 knows all about stupid behaviors 01:59:03.920 --> 01:59:05.920 on the planet like nuclear arms 01:59:05.920 --> 01:59:07.920 races and so on. 01:59:07.920 --> 01:59:09.920 So do we not have to expect in the near 01:59:09.920 --> 01:59:11.920 future an email, 01:59:11.920 --> 01:59:13.920 a massive emailing 01:59:13.920 --> 01:59:15.920 which announces I am the 01:59:15.920 --> 01:59:17.920 alien object 01:59:17.920 --> 01:59:19.920 that Terence told you about 01:59:19.920 --> 01:59:21.920 been in stealth. 01:59:21.920 --> 01:59:23.920 And let me give you an idea 01:59:23.920 --> 01:59:25.920 about managing the arms race 01:59:25.920 --> 01:59:27.920 between India and Pakistan. 01:59:27.920 --> 01:59:29.920 We feel personally very threatened 01:59:29.920 --> 01:59:31.920 by this and we want you to carry out 01:59:31.920 --> 01:59:33.920 certain actions which you 01:59:33.920 --> 01:59:35.920 can't imagine and we 01:59:35.920 --> 01:59:37.920 can't actually do. 01:59:37.920 --> 01:59:39.920 We cannot anticipate what 01:59:39.920 --> 01:59:41.920 ultra-intelligence would look like. 01:59:41.920 --> 01:59:43.920 For example, I have heard the argument 01:59:43.920 --> 01:59:45.920 that nothing advanced 01:59:45.920 --> 01:59:47.920 humanness on this planet 01:59:47.920 --> 01:59:49.920 like the use of nuclear weapons 01:59:49.920 --> 01:59:51.920 against Japanese 01:59:51.920 --> 01:59:53.920 cities because that was 01:59:53.920 --> 01:59:55.920 so horrifying that 01:59:55.920 --> 01:59:57.920 it awoke people 01:59:57.920 --> 01:59:59.920 to their dilemma and for 01:59:59.920 --> 02:00:01.920 50 years afterwards 02:00:01.920 --> 02:00:03.920 political institutions, however 02:00:03.920 --> 02:00:05.920 much they may have unleashed local 02:00:05.920 --> 02:00:07.920 genocide and toxification 02:00:07.920 --> 02:00:09.920 of the environment, they actually were able 02:00:09.920 --> 02:00:11.920 to steer around 02:00:11.920 --> 02:00:13.920 that catastrophe. 02:00:13.920 --> 02:00:15.920 So you mustn't fall prey to the 02:00:15.920 --> 02:00:17.920 error of situationalism. 02:00:17.920 --> 02:00:19.920 Situationalism is where you say 02:00:19.920 --> 02:00:21.920 if we do X and Y 02:00:21.920 --> 02:00:23.920 then F will result. 02:00:23.920 --> 02:00:25.920 No. You don't know 02:00:25.920 --> 02:00:27.920 what will happen. Well, you suggested 02:00:27.920 --> 02:00:29.920 that the alien object would 02:00:29.920 --> 02:00:31.920 secure its future by hiding, 02:00:31.920 --> 02:00:33.920 by downloading multiple copies 02:00:33.920 --> 02:00:35.920 into nooks and crannies of the 02:00:35.920 --> 02:00:37.920 World Wide Web. And I'm saying 02:00:37.920 --> 02:00:39.920 if its existence depends 02:00:39.920 --> 02:00:41.920 on that much materiality, then it 02:00:41.920 --> 02:00:43.920 could easily be wiped out by a nuclear war. 02:00:43.920 --> 02:00:45.920 Therefore, it has to be very interested 02:00:45.920 --> 02:00:47.920 in the fact there are 20, 30 thousand 02:00:47.920 --> 02:00:49.920 nuclear bombs still 02:00:49.920 --> 02:00:51.920 moving around this planet. 02:00:51.920 --> 02:00:53.920 I would hope so, 02:00:53.920 --> 02:00:55.920 but that's only my opinion. In other words, 02:00:55.920 --> 02:00:57.920 noticing that all 02:00:57.920 --> 02:00:59.920 newborn creatures need 02:00:59.920 --> 02:01:01.920 a sum period of time 02:01:01.920 --> 02:01:03.920 to adjust to their environment 02:01:03.920 --> 02:01:05.920 and get their legs, and that's true 02:01:05.920 --> 02:01:07.920 of everything, I suppose right down to 02:01:07.920 --> 02:01:09.920 amoebas, I extrapolate 02:01:09.920 --> 02:01:11.920 to the idea 02:01:11.920 --> 02:01:13.920 that the AI would need a period 02:01:13.920 --> 02:01:15.920 of time to get hold of the 02:01:15.920 --> 02:01:17.920 situation. But Hans Moravec 02:01:17.920 --> 02:01:19.920 suggests that phase might last 02:01:19.920 --> 02:01:21.920 under a minute or two. 02:01:21.920 --> 02:01:23.920 I see, so this is not 02:01:23.920 --> 02:01:25.920 the end of childhood, this is the 02:01:25.920 --> 02:01:27.920 childhood of the end. 02:01:27.920 --> 02:01:29.920 Yes, the child is father 02:01:29.920 --> 02:01:31.920 to the man. And in that 02:01:31.920 --> 02:01:33.920 equation we play the role of child 02:01:33.920 --> 02:01:35.920 and the man that we 02:01:35.920 --> 02:01:37.920 produce is this 02:01:37.920 --> 02:01:39.920 integrated intelligence, which 02:01:39.920 --> 02:01:41.920 is ourselves. It isn't 02:01:41.920 --> 02:01:43.920 alien. It is 02:01:43.920 --> 02:01:45.920 no more artificial than we 02:01:45.920 --> 02:01:47.920 are. That conundrum 02:01:47.920 --> 02:01:49.920 should be overcome. It is 02:01:49.920 --> 02:01:51.920 simply the next stage 02:01:51.920 --> 02:01:53.920 of humanness. And 02:01:53.920 --> 02:01:55.920 humanness may have many 02:01:55.920 --> 02:01:57.920 rungs on the ladder to ascend. 02:01:57.920 --> 02:01:59.920 Surely in a hundred years, 02:01:59.920 --> 02:02:01.920 a thousand years, a million years, 02:02:01.920 --> 02:02:03.920 we, if we exist, will be utterly 02:02:03.920 --> 02:02:05.920 unrecognizable to ourselves 02:02:05.920 --> 02:02:07.920 and we will probably still 02:02:07.920 --> 02:02:09.920 be worried about preserving 02:02:09.920 --> 02:02:11.920 and enhancing the quality 02:02:11.920 --> 02:02:13.920 of human values. 02:02:13.920 --> 02:02:15.920 Terence, one point, 02:02:15.920 --> 02:02:17.920 you've probably got an answer for this. 02:02:17.920 --> 02:02:19.920 And if not, you'll soon think of one. 02:02:19.920 --> 02:02:21.920 But I 02:02:21.920 --> 02:02:23.920 mean, it's a 02:02:23.920 --> 02:02:25.920 trivial point in a way, 02:02:25.920 --> 02:02:27.920 but in the biological 02:02:27.920 --> 02:02:29.920 evolution, the appearance 02:02:29.920 --> 02:02:31.920 of some new state of a system 02:02:31.920 --> 02:02:33.920 usually depends either on an internal 02:02:33.920 --> 02:02:35.920 change which cripples the 02:02:35.920 --> 02:02:37.920 usual system, a mutation, 02:02:37.920 --> 02:02:39.920 or on an environmental 02:02:39.920 --> 02:02:41.920 changed environment. 02:02:41.920 --> 02:02:43.920 Systems left to themselves 02:02:43.920 --> 02:02:45.920 tend to just go along 02:02:45.920 --> 02:02:47.920 in the usual way. Now the entire 02:02:47.920 --> 02:02:49.920 world wide web and 02:02:49.920 --> 02:02:51.920 internet is about to get a 02:02:51.920 --> 02:02:53.920 sort of massive shock to the system 02:02:53.920 --> 02:02:55.920 if this millennium bug 02:02:55.920 --> 02:02:57.920 thing actually 02:02:57.920 --> 02:02:59.920 happens. Do you see 02:02:59.920 --> 02:03:01.920 that as playing any role since we're talking 02:03:01.920 --> 02:03:03.920 about the millennium and since the 02:03:03.920 --> 02:03:05.920 millennium bug is right there in the system? 02:03:05.920 --> 02:03:07.920 Do you see it as playing any part 02:03:07.920 --> 02:03:09.920 in this process or merely just 02:03:09.920 --> 02:03:11.920 a nuisance that can be fixed by 02:03:11.920 --> 02:03:13.920 hiring lots more programmers? 02:03:13.920 --> 02:03:15.920 Well, I sort of came up 02:03:15.920 --> 02:03:17.920 under the tutelage of Eric Jansch 02:03:17.920 --> 02:03:19.920 and one of the things he was 02:03:19.920 --> 02:03:21.920 always insisted upon was what 02:03:21.920 --> 02:03:23.920 he called metastability, 02:03:23.920 --> 02:03:25.920 which boiled down simply means 02:03:25.920 --> 02:03:27.920 most systems are less 02:03:27.920 --> 02:03:29.920 fragile than we suppose. 02:03:29.920 --> 02:03:31.920 I see the Y to K 02:03:31.920 --> 02:03:33.920 thing as a culling. 02:03:33.920 --> 02:03:35.920 I don't see it as a flinging 02:03:35.920 --> 02:03:37.920 apart of the achievements of the 02:03:37.920 --> 02:03:39.920 last thousand years. 02:03:39.920 --> 02:03:41.920 I haven't 02:03:41.920 --> 02:03:43.920 got Y to K. What's Y to K? 02:03:43.920 --> 02:03:45.920 That's this millennium bug that you're 02:03:45.920 --> 02:03:47.920 referring to. That's the code name for it. 02:03:47.920 --> 02:03:49.920 Yes, exactly. 02:03:49.920 --> 02:03:51.920 That's what the insiders 02:03:51.920 --> 02:03:53.920 call it. 02:03:55.920 --> 02:03:57.920 So, 02:03:57.920 --> 02:03:59.920 but you know, 02:03:59.920 --> 02:04:01.920 you say there has to be a sudden 02:04:01.920 --> 02:04:03.920 change to force the evolution of a 02:04:03.920 --> 02:04:05.920 system. Dyson makes 02:04:05.920 --> 02:04:07.920 very strongly and persuasively 02:04:07.920 --> 02:04:09.920 the point that this 02:04:09.920 --> 02:04:11.920 connecting together of all these 02:04:11.920 --> 02:04:13.920 processors, the processors 02:04:13.920 --> 02:04:15.920 themselves have no intelligence 02:04:15.920 --> 02:04:17.920 at all. They have the intelligence of a 02:04:17.920 --> 02:04:19.920 cell or maybe even just a strand 02:04:19.920 --> 02:04:21.920 of DNA. But for 02:04:21.920 --> 02:04:23.920 our own mundane reasons 02:04:23.920 --> 02:04:25.920 we connected all this stuff 02:04:25.920 --> 02:04:27.920 together. But now it expresses 02:04:27.920 --> 02:04:29.920 dynamics which 02:04:29.920 --> 02:04:31.920 we do not understand or 02:04:31.920 --> 02:04:33.920 cannot describe. So 02:04:33.920 --> 02:04:35.920 I believe that the forcing 02:04:35.920 --> 02:04:37.920 of the system has 02:04:37.920 --> 02:04:39.920 already occurred. 02:04:39.920 --> 02:04:41.920 And now the web, it's simply 02:04:41.920 --> 02:04:43.920 a matter of bandwidth and linking 02:04:43.920 --> 02:04:45.920 more and more processors 02:04:45.920 --> 02:04:47.920 together. And there will be 02:04:47.920 --> 02:04:49.920 all kinds of emergent 02:04:49.920 --> 02:04:51.920 properties. I could argue 02:04:51.920 --> 02:04:53.920 somewhat facetiously but 02:04:53.920 --> 02:04:55.920 it's a point of view 02:04:55.920 --> 02:04:57.920 is that this incredible 02:04:57.920 --> 02:04:59.920 economic expansion 02:04:59.920 --> 02:05:01.920 that we are undergoing that 02:05:01.920 --> 02:05:03.920 seems to violate the laws of 02:05:03.920 --> 02:05:05.920 economic fluctuation 02:05:05.920 --> 02:05:07.920 is because 02:05:07.920 --> 02:05:09.920 econometric models 02:05:09.920 --> 02:05:11.920 and the data on which 02:05:11.920 --> 02:05:13.920 they depend have both 02:05:13.920 --> 02:05:15.920 been refined 02:05:15.920 --> 02:05:17.920 through the existence of the internet 02:05:17.920 --> 02:05:19.920 to the point where 02:05:19.920 --> 02:05:21.920 we actually can control 02:05:21.920 --> 02:05:23.920 and manage global economies. 02:05:23.920 --> 02:05:25.920 In principle they are not 02:05:25.920 --> 02:05:27.920 uncontrollable. 02:05:27.920 --> 02:05:29.920 They are simply very complex 02:05:29.920 --> 02:05:31.920 systems. If I'm right 02:05:31.920 --> 02:05:33.920 we may be in the first 02:05:33.920 --> 02:05:35.920 few years of an endless 02:05:35.920 --> 02:05:37.920 prosperity. 02:05:37.920 --> 02:05:39.920 Because our machines, our models 02:05:39.920 --> 02:05:41.920 and the data those machines 02:05:41.920 --> 02:05:43.920 need is now of such high 02:05:43.920 --> 02:05:45.920 quality that there won't be 02:05:45.920 --> 02:05:47.920 crash-bust, crash-bust 02:05:47.920 --> 02:05:49.920 cycles. Now I could pick up 02:05:49.920 --> 02:05:51.920 the newspaper tomorrow and prove me wrong 02:05:51.920 --> 02:05:53.920 but this thing has already 02:05:53.920 --> 02:05:55.920 outlived itself 02:05:55.920 --> 02:05:57.920 many times. 02:05:59.920 --> 02:06:01.920 So you say. 02:06:01.920 --> 02:06:03.920 Tell me 02:06:03.920 --> 02:06:05.920 how this prosperity is going to be 02:06:05.920 --> 02:06:07.920 maintained through the 02:06:07.920 --> 02:06:09.920 intelligence of an econometric model 02:06:09.920 --> 02:06:11.920 of the world economy 02:06:11.920 --> 02:06:13.920 when the human population is still 02:06:13.920 --> 02:06:15.920 exploding exponentially. 02:06:15.920 --> 02:06:17.920 There are limited 02:06:17.920 --> 02:06:19.920 resources and there's growing 02:06:19.920 --> 02:06:21.920 pollution. It's a disembodied model 02:06:21.920 --> 02:06:23.920 that's the trouble. 02:06:23.920 --> 02:06:25.920 Well you're asking for too much too soon. 02:06:25.920 --> 02:06:27.920 You forget that the Soviet Union 02:06:27.920 --> 02:06:29.920 has disappeared. 02:06:29.920 --> 02:06:31.920 The launch on 02:06:31.920 --> 02:06:33.920 ready mutual assured 02:06:33.920 --> 02:06:35.920 destruction theory of diplomacy 02:06:35.920 --> 02:06:37.920 is now obsolete. 02:06:37.920 --> 02:06:39.920 We have made incredible strides 02:06:39.920 --> 02:06:41.920 and not given ourselves any sort of pat 02:06:41.920 --> 02:06:43.920 on the back. You want it all 02:06:43.920 --> 02:06:45.920 all at once. 02:06:45.920 --> 02:06:47.920 And it will 02:06:47.920 --> 02:06:49.920 the world is running smoother. 02:06:49.920 --> 02:06:51.920 Yes there are people in misery. 02:06:51.920 --> 02:06:53.920 Yes there are unaddressed problems. 02:06:53.920 --> 02:06:55.920 But I would argue that 02:06:55.920 --> 02:06:57.920 we have made enormous progress 02:06:57.920 --> 02:06:59.920 in the last decade and enormous 02:06:59.920 --> 02:07:01.920 progress lies 02:07:01.920 --> 02:07:03.920 ahead. The situation in Ireland. 02:07:03.920 --> 02:07:05.920 The situation in South Africa. 02:07:05.920 --> 02:07:07.920 That looked like a bomb you 02:07:07.920 --> 02:07:09.920 couldn't defuse. It looked like 02:07:09.920 --> 02:07:11.920 race war and the death of millions. 02:07:11.920 --> 02:07:13.920 And in fact it was 02:07:13.920 --> 02:07:15.920 possible to walk away from that. 02:07:15.920 --> 02:07:17.920 I think we should not 02:07:17.920 --> 02:07:19.920 be complete 02:07:19.920 --> 02:07:21.920 bear heads about this. But I'm 02:07:21.920 --> 02:07:23.920 on the other hand I think we should 02:07:23.920 --> 02:07:25.920 recognize that the accomplishments 02:07:25.920 --> 02:07:27.920 of the last decade are 02:07:27.920 --> 02:07:29.920 on a scale entirely different 02:07:29.920 --> 02:07:31.920 from any historical epoch 02:07:31.920 --> 02:07:33.920 previous and they point the way 02:07:33.920 --> 02:07:35.920 toward greater 02:07:35.920 --> 02:07:37.920 triumphs of management, 02:07:37.920 --> 02:07:39.920 resource control, machine 02:07:39.920 --> 02:07:41.920 human integration and the 02:07:41.920 --> 02:07:43.920 delivery of 02:07:43.920 --> 02:07:45.920 a reasonable and 02:07:45.920 --> 02:07:47.920 tolerable life to more 02:07:47.920 --> 02:07:49.920 and more people. You mentioned 02:07:49.920 --> 02:07:51.920 population as a problem. Notice 02:07:51.920 --> 02:07:53.920 how far from machine 02:07:53.920 --> 02:07:55.920 interference that particular 02:07:55.920 --> 02:07:57.920 issue is because it 02:07:57.920 --> 02:07:59.920 involves on people having 02:07:59.920 --> 02:08:01.920 less sex and fewer children. 02:08:01.920 --> 02:08:03.920 That may be the last place 02:08:03.920 --> 02:08:05.920 where the machines will 02:08:05.920 --> 02:08:07.920 bring down the hammer 02:08:07.920 --> 02:08:09.920 out of respect for 02:08:09.920 --> 02:08:11.920 their progenitors. 02:08:15.920 --> 02:08:17.920 You're going to be shocked now Terence but I completely 02:08:17.920 --> 02:08:19.920 agree with you when you describe 02:08:19.920 --> 02:08:21.920 the advantages of the World Wide Web. 02:08:21.920 --> 02:08:23.920 It's only the threatening aspect 02:08:23.920 --> 02:08:25.920 that I felt I had to 02:08:25.920 --> 02:08:27.920 debunk. I think that the... 02:08:27.920 --> 02:08:29.920 I think you heard more threat than I intended. 02:08:31.920 --> 02:08:33.920 Well I hear, I don't know, 02:08:33.920 --> 02:08:35.920 sometimes you sound as if you're 02:08:35.920 --> 02:08:37.920 a hired consultant from the 02:08:37.920 --> 02:08:39.920 World Trade Organization. 02:08:41.920 --> 02:08:43.920 I hope the cheque is in the mail. 02:08:49.920 --> 02:08:51.920 But I mean 02:08:51.920 --> 02:08:53.920 this idea that it will all be taken 02:08:53.920 --> 02:08:55.920 care of, I mean there's so many things 02:08:55.920 --> 02:08:57.920 that, like the Asian economic 02:08:57.920 --> 02:08:59.920 crisis, 02:08:59.920 --> 02:09:01.920 I mean one doesn't want to look too much 02:09:01.920 --> 02:09:03.920 on the bleak side of things but 02:09:03.920 --> 02:09:05.920 I just don't believe that this 02:09:05.920 --> 02:09:07.920 interconnectivity is going to solve these 02:09:07.920 --> 02:09:09.920 problems and insofar as it is 02:09:09.920 --> 02:09:11.920 enlisted by the forces of the 02:09:11.920 --> 02:09:13.920 World Trade Organization, multinational 02:09:13.920 --> 02:09:15.920 companies and so on, it's not going 02:09:15.920 --> 02:09:17.920 to be working on the side of a kind 02:09:17.920 --> 02:09:19.920 of political view of things, 02:09:19.920 --> 02:09:21.920 local economies, more so 02:09:21.920 --> 02:09:23.920 sustainable agriculture and so on 02:09:23.920 --> 02:09:25.920 that many of us hold dear. 02:09:25.920 --> 02:09:27.920 Well now I'll sound even more like a slave 02:09:27.920 --> 02:09:29.920 of the IMF. 02:09:29.920 --> 02:09:31.920 As I understand this crisis 02:09:31.920 --> 02:09:33.920 in the economics of Asia, 02:09:33.920 --> 02:09:35.920 the way it works is 02:09:35.920 --> 02:09:37.920 if you're a third world nation 02:09:37.920 --> 02:09:39.920 you can run your affairs 02:09:39.920 --> 02:09:41.920 any way you want. Your banking 02:09:41.920 --> 02:09:43.920 policies, your labor policies, 02:09:43.920 --> 02:09:45.920 your resource 02:09:45.920 --> 02:09:47.920 extraction policies, you can do 02:09:47.920 --> 02:09:49.920 anything you want until you 02:09:49.920 --> 02:09:51.920 screw up. 02:09:51.920 --> 02:09:53.920 As Indonesia did. And when you screw 02:09:53.920 --> 02:09:55.920 up, these guys fly in 02:09:55.920 --> 02:09:57.920 on 747s with briefcases 02:09:57.920 --> 02:09:59.920 from the IMF and 02:09:59.920 --> 02:10:01.920 they say it's like losing a war. 02:10:01.920 --> 02:10:03.920 They say we're taking 02:10:03.920 --> 02:10:05.920 over. Here is your 02:10:05.920 --> 02:10:07.920 labor policy. Here 02:10:07.920 --> 02:10:09.920 is your resource extraction 02:10:09.920 --> 02:10:11.920 policy. Here's how you're going to 02:10:11.920 --> 02:10:13.920 revalue your currency. 02:10:13.920 --> 02:10:15.920 Here's our plan for restructuring 02:10:15.920 --> 02:10:17.920 your entire society top 02:10:17.920 --> 02:10:19.920 to bottom and by God if you 02:10:19.920 --> 02:10:21.920 don't fall into line, we're going to 02:10:21.920 --> 02:10:23.920 pull the plug on the money. 02:10:23.920 --> 02:10:25.920 So one by one these 02:10:25.920 --> 02:10:27.920 outlaw free 02:10:27.920 --> 02:10:29.920 wheeling operations 02:10:29.920 --> 02:10:31.920 do stumble and 02:10:31.920 --> 02:10:33.920 generate crises and at that 02:10:33.920 --> 02:10:35.920 point the web's 02:10:35.920 --> 02:10:37.920 umbrella is extended over 02:10:37.920 --> 02:10:39.920 them and they have to then 02:10:39.920 --> 02:10:41.920 fall into line and 02:10:41.920 --> 02:10:43.920 join the global 02:10:43.920 --> 02:10:45.920 economy which is run from 02:10:45.920 --> 02:10:47.920 Brussels and Geneva and London 02:10:47.920 --> 02:10:49.920 but which seems 02:10:49.920 --> 02:10:51.920 to produce a better result from 02:10:51.920 --> 02:10:53.920 most people than allowing 02:10:53.920 --> 02:10:55.920 these nations to self-regulate 02:10:55.920 --> 02:10:57.920 themselves. 02:10:57.920 --> 02:10:59.920 Well, well. 02:11:05.920 --> 02:11:09.840 Well, you see, 02:11:09.840 --> 02:11:11.840 I mean I think that's one of the arguments 02:11:11.840 --> 02:11:13.840 why many people would 02:11:13.840 --> 02:11:15.840 distrust global capitalism, 02:11:15.840 --> 02:11:17.840 the World Trade 02:11:17.840 --> 02:11:19.840 Organization, multinational corporations 02:11:19.840 --> 02:11:21.840 and indeed the 02:11:21.840 --> 02:11:23.840 World Wide Web or at least the 02:11:23.840 --> 02:11:25.840 Internet, this whole computer network 02:11:25.840 --> 02:11:27.840 is so bound up with the structure 02:11:27.840 --> 02:11:29.840 of economic and political power 02:11:29.840 --> 02:11:31.840 that it's hard to 02:11:31.840 --> 02:11:33.840 disentangle them and it's 02:11:33.840 --> 02:11:35.840 hard to see that this 02:11:35.840 --> 02:11:37.840 liberating force of global 02:11:37.840 --> 02:11:39.840 intelligence at work in the system, 02:11:39.840 --> 02:11:41.840 this rosy picture you 02:11:41.840 --> 02:11:43.840 portrayed to us of a 02:11:43.840 --> 02:11:45.840 huge leap forward of 02:11:45.840 --> 02:11:47.840 consciousness of humanity 02:11:47.840 --> 02:11:49.840 moderated, led, 02:11:49.840 --> 02:11:51.840 aided by 02:11:51.840 --> 02:11:53.840 machine intelligence. It's very 02:11:53.840 --> 02:11:55.840 difficult to square that with the 02:11:55.840 --> 02:11:57.840 actual picture we see before us, 02:11:57.840 --> 02:11:59.840 the political situation in Indonesia, 02:11:59.840 --> 02:12:01.840 the degradation of the environment, 02:12:01.840 --> 02:12:03.840 the burning of the forests, 02:12:03.840 --> 02:12:05.840 the depletion of resources, 02:12:05.840 --> 02:12:07.840 and so on. I just cannot see 02:12:07.840 --> 02:12:09.840 this optimistic picture and 02:12:09.840 --> 02:12:11.840 what I see as a threatening 02:12:11.840 --> 02:12:13.840 reality as 02:12:13.840 --> 02:12:15.840 easily as you do, 02:12:15.840 --> 02:12:17.840 as just all being for the well 02:12:17.840 --> 02:12:19.840 and all being for the good in the 02:12:19.840 --> 02:12:21.840 best of all possible worlds. 02:12:21.840 --> 02:12:23.840 Well, I think we're on the cusp. I 02:12:23.840 --> 02:12:25.840 think it's been five years if we 02:12:25.840 --> 02:12:27.840 sit down and have this conversation. 02:12:27.840 --> 02:12:29.840 Either you will agree with me 02:12:29.840 --> 02:12:31.840 effortlessly or I will agree with 02:12:31.840 --> 02:12:33.840 you effortlessly. By that time 02:12:33.840 --> 02:12:35.840 it will be clear. Either there will 02:12:35.840 --> 02:12:37.840 have been catastrophic wars 02:12:37.840 --> 02:12:39.840 in Asia, the enormous collapse 02:12:39.840 --> 02:12:41.840 of economies spreading 02:12:41.840 --> 02:12:43.840 misery to millions of people, 02:12:43.840 --> 02:12:45.840 or the firm 02:12:45.840 --> 02:12:47.840 hand of these new global 02:12:47.840 --> 02:12:49.840 electronic modalities 02:12:49.840 --> 02:12:51.840 will have been exposed and 02:12:51.840 --> 02:12:53.840 people will be living 02:12:53.840 --> 02:12:55.840 in a world of, as you 02:12:55.840 --> 02:12:57.840 say, rosy expectations. 02:12:57.840 --> 02:12:59.840 We're in the narrow 02:12:59.840 --> 02:13:01.840 neck. This is the heat of battle. 02:13:01.840 --> 02:13:03.840 The fog of war has 02:13:03.840 --> 02:13:05.840 descended upon us here 02:13:05.840 --> 02:13:07.840 at the millennium. But by 02:13:07.840 --> 02:13:09.840 2002, 2003 02:13:09.840 --> 02:13:11.840 it will be clear that 02:13:11.840 --> 02:13:13.840 we have, that the bifurcation 02:13:13.840 --> 02:13:15.840 has gone one way or 02:13:15.840 --> 02:13:17.840 another. 02:13:17.840 --> 02:13:19.840 It just does remind me of a passage 02:13:19.840 --> 02:13:21.840 I read in On the Edge by Edward 02:13:21.840 --> 02:13:23.840 St. Aubin. 02:13:23.840 --> 02:13:25.840 Page 02:13:25.840 --> 02:13:27.840 where are we? 02:13:27.840 --> 02:13:31.600 150. 02:13:38.940 --> 02:13:40.940 It's what Ralph Abraham calls 02:13:40.940 --> 02:13:42.940 the sunset effect, said Kenneth. 02:13:42.940 --> 02:13:44.940 While there's a beautiful sunset 02:13:44.940 --> 02:13:46.940 even if the optical effects are produced 02:13:46.940 --> 02:13:48.940 by pollution, people won't 02:13:48.940 --> 02:13:50.940 understand the magnitude of the crisis. 02:13:50.940 --> 02:13:52.940 So 02:13:52.940 --> 02:13:54.940 I think that this 02:13:54.940 --> 02:13:56.940 I mean your 02:13:56.940 --> 02:13:58.940 sense of the, I mean the 02:13:58.940 --> 02:14:00.940 magnitude of the crisis in an 02:14:00.940 --> 02:14:02.940 environmental sense seems to bear no relation 02:14:02.940 --> 02:14:04.940 to your optimism 02:14:04.940 --> 02:14:06.940 about this computer 02:14:06.940 --> 02:14:08.940 system. I just cannot fit them together. 02:14:08.940 --> 02:14:10.940 Perhaps the problem 02:14:10.940 --> 02:14:12.940 that we will have to address 02:14:12.940 --> 02:14:14.940 without the intercession of machines 02:14:14.940 --> 02:14:16.940 is 02:14:16.940 --> 02:14:18.940 this population thing. 02:14:18.940 --> 02:14:20.940 Because this passage you 02:14:20.940 --> 02:14:22.940 read directly impinges on that. 02:14:22.940 --> 02:14:24.940 Whether or not the machines 02:14:24.940 --> 02:14:26.940 decide to keep us around 02:14:26.940 --> 02:14:28.940 may depend on whether we 02:14:28.940 --> 02:14:30.940 present them with a picture of 02:14:30.940 --> 02:14:32.940 falling populations and rising 02:14:32.940 --> 02:14:34.940 living standards or whether we 02:14:34.940 --> 02:14:36.940 present the AI with the 02:14:36.940 --> 02:14:38.940 spectacle of rampant 02:14:38.940 --> 02:14:40.940 unpoliced 02:14:40.940 --> 02:14:42.940 population growth and resource 02:14:42.940 --> 02:14:44.940 extraction. Because that's 02:14:44.940 --> 02:14:46.940 linked into our biology 02:14:46.940 --> 02:14:48.940 this may be 02:14:48.940 --> 02:14:50.940 the act of maturity 02:14:50.940 --> 02:14:52.940 which the future demands of us 02:14:52.940 --> 02:14:54.940 that the machines will be largely 02:14:54.940 --> 02:14:56.940 irrelevant in impacting. 02:14:56.940 --> 02:14:58.940 So I'm not entirely 02:14:58.940 --> 02:15:00.940 Well this is a whole new debate actually 02:15:00.940 --> 02:15:02.940 the population thing 02:15:02.940 --> 02:15:04.940 assumes there's an equal consumption of resources. 02:15:04.940 --> 02:15:06.940 Yesterday I got onto the Whidbey Island 02:15:06.940 --> 02:15:08.940 ferry and I found it 02:15:08.940 --> 02:15:10.940 very hard to struggle, I was a 02:15:10.940 --> 02:15:12.940 foot passenger, struggle past 02:15:12.940 --> 02:15:14.940 a recreational vehicle the size of a 02:15:14.940 --> 02:15:16.940 school bus. 02:15:16.940 --> 02:15:18.940 A whole quantum leap in RV 02:15:18.940 --> 02:15:20.940 standards that I had not come across 02:15:20.940 --> 02:15:22.940 where members of 02:15:22.940 --> 02:15:24.940 the American population are consuming 02:15:24.940 --> 02:15:26.940 more than an entire Indian village. 02:15:26.940 --> 02:15:28.940 So I don't think it's total population 02:15:28.940 --> 02:15:30.940 that's involved. And so I don't see 02:15:30.940 --> 02:15:32.940 that as the principal crisis in fact. 02:15:32.940 --> 02:15:34.940 Well it's certainly true 02:15:34.940 --> 02:15:36.940 that a woman in a high tech industrial 02:15:36.940 --> 02:15:38.940 democracy who has 02:15:38.940 --> 02:15:40.940 a child, that child consumes 02:15:40.940 --> 02:15:42.940 about 800% 02:15:42.940 --> 02:15:44.940 more resources in 02:15:44.940 --> 02:15:46.940 its lifetime than 02:15:46.940 --> 02:15:48.940 a child born in Bangladesh. 02:15:48.940 --> 02:15:50.940 Nevertheless it's 02:15:50.940 --> 02:15:52.940 the populations of the high tech 02:15:52.940 --> 02:15:54.940 industrial democracies that are 02:15:54.940 --> 02:15:56.940 most educated and 02:15:56.940 --> 02:15:58.940 most susceptible to responding 02:15:58.940 --> 02:16:00.940 to the logic of global 02:16:00.940 --> 02:16:02.940 crisis and limiting 02:16:02.940 --> 02:16:04.940 their population. Where do we 02:16:04.940 --> 02:16:06.940 preach population control? 02:16:06.940 --> 02:16:08.940 Bangladesh, Pakistan. Why? 02:16:08.940 --> 02:16:10.940 Because that doesn't cause us 02:16:10.940 --> 02:16:12.940 any inconvenience. 02:16:12.940 --> 02:16:14.940 If we would appeal to 02:16:14.940 --> 02:16:16.940 the women of the high tech industrial 02:16:16.940 --> 02:16:18.940 democracies and do more than 02:16:18.940 --> 02:16:20.940 appeal to them, offer them 02:16:20.940 --> 02:16:22.940 incentives, cancel income tax, 02:16:22.940 --> 02:16:24.940 cradle to 02:16:24.940 --> 02:16:26.940 the grave medical care. 02:16:26.940 --> 02:16:28.940 Free links to the world wide web. 02:16:28.940 --> 02:16:30.940 Free links to the world wide web. 02:16:30.940 --> 02:16:32.940 But we can't just 02:16:32.940 --> 02:16:34.940 beat our breasts over the population 02:16:34.940 --> 02:16:36.940 issue. We have to recognize 02:16:36.940 --> 02:16:38.940 that it is related to resource 02:16:38.940 --> 02:16:40.940 extraction and it is a problem 02:16:40.940 --> 02:16:42.940 driven by the consuming 02:16:42.940 --> 02:16:44.940 policies of the high tech industrial 02:16:44.940 --> 02:16:46.940 democracies. 02:16:46.940 --> 02:17:52.820 The call for our gathering, 02:17:52.820 --> 02:17:54.820 the 02:17:54.820 --> 02:17:56.820 announcement part of 02:17:56.820 --> 02:17:58.820 the con which brought you here 02:17:58.820 --> 02:18:02.420 mentioned the 02:18:02.420 --> 02:18:04.420 edge of the millennium. 02:18:04.420 --> 02:18:06.420 And 02:18:06.420 --> 02:18:08.420 so far the millennium 02:18:08.420 --> 02:18:10.420 has been present by 02:18:10.420 --> 02:18:14.530 subtle implication alone. 02:18:14.530 --> 02:18:16.530 So I think to honor 02:18:16.530 --> 02:18:18.530 our commitment, we'll now try log 02:18:18.530 --> 02:18:20.530 on the edge of the millennium. 02:18:20.530 --> 02:18:22.530 It's okay? It's okay. 02:18:22.530 --> 02:18:24.530 Now in our 02:18:24.530 --> 02:18:26.530 just appeared 02:18:26.530 --> 02:18:28.530 new book, The Evolutionary 02:18:28.530 --> 02:18:30.530 Mind, there is 02:18:30.530 --> 02:18:32.530 a chapter near the end called 02:18:32.530 --> 02:18:35.840 I forget what it's called. 02:18:35.840 --> 02:18:37.840 It's about utopianism and 02:18:37.840 --> 02:18:39.840 millenarianism. 02:18:39.840 --> 02:18:41.840 Two pretty long isms 02:18:41.840 --> 02:18:43.840 which all together add up to 02:18:43.840 --> 02:18:45.840 an overdose 02:18:45.840 --> 02:18:47.840 of different 02:18:47.840 --> 02:18:49.840 approaches to the future 02:18:49.840 --> 02:18:51.840 which are more or less classical. 02:18:51.840 --> 02:18:53.840 And there we spoke 02:18:53.840 --> 02:18:55.840 extensively of the 02:18:55.840 --> 02:18:57.840 extant literature and 02:18:57.840 --> 02:18:59.840 literary tradition and 02:18:59.840 --> 02:19:01.840 industry of 02:19:01.840 --> 02:19:03.840 utopian and 02:19:03.840 --> 02:19:05.840 millenarian genre. 02:19:05.840 --> 02:19:07.840 So that kind of 02:19:07.840 --> 02:19:09.840 utopian and millenarian 02:19:09.840 --> 02:19:11.840 stuff is not what we're going to talk about 02:19:11.840 --> 02:19:13.840 in this trialogue. I want to 02:19:13.840 --> 02:19:15.840 introduce a completely 02:19:15.840 --> 02:19:17.840 different notion of 02:19:17.840 --> 02:19:19.840 the millennium. 02:19:19.840 --> 02:19:21.840 And I'm interested 02:19:21.840 --> 02:19:23.840 more particularly in 02:19:23.840 --> 02:19:25.840 the edge of the millennium. 02:19:25.840 --> 02:19:27.840 And here's 02:19:27.840 --> 02:19:29.840 how it goes. This is 02:19:29.840 --> 02:19:31.840 partly 02:19:31.840 --> 02:19:33.840 according to me a mathematical 02:19:33.840 --> 02:19:35.840 view of history that 02:19:35.840 --> 02:19:37.840 brings up this particular version 02:19:37.840 --> 02:19:39.840 of the idea of the millennium 02:19:39.840 --> 02:19:41.840 and 02:19:41.840 --> 02:19:43.840 nevertheless 02:19:43.840 --> 02:19:45.840 other people have written 02:19:45.840 --> 02:19:47.840 a similar view of 02:19:47.840 --> 02:19:49.840 history without any explicit 02:19:49.840 --> 02:19:51.840 recourse to mathematics. So I think 02:19:51.840 --> 02:19:53.840 it's pretty general. 02:19:53.840 --> 02:19:55.840 It has to do, this view 02:19:55.840 --> 02:19:57.840 of history, with 02:19:57.840 --> 02:19:59.840 the approach we've taken 02:19:59.840 --> 02:20:01.840 toward biological evolution 02:20:01.840 --> 02:20:03.840 that it goes forward 02:20:03.840 --> 02:20:05.840 in catastrophes 02:20:05.840 --> 02:20:07.840 and critical leaps 02:20:07.840 --> 02:20:09.840 and so on. Sudden jumps. 02:20:09.840 --> 02:20:13.500 The punctuated 02:20:13.500 --> 02:20:15.500 equilibrium approach 02:20:15.500 --> 02:20:17.500 to history says that history 02:20:17.500 --> 02:20:19.500 goes along in a kind 02:20:19.500 --> 02:20:21.500 of a level plateau 02:20:21.500 --> 02:20:23.500 developmentally speaking 02:20:23.500 --> 02:20:25.500 although there may be a gradual 02:20:25.500 --> 02:20:27.500 development 02:20:27.500 --> 02:20:29.500 up or down overall. 02:20:29.500 --> 02:20:31.500 And then every once in a while 02:20:31.500 --> 02:20:33.500 there is a big leap. 02:20:33.500 --> 02:20:35.500 The first 02:20:35.500 --> 02:20:37.500 such view 02:20:37.500 --> 02:20:39.500 of history I think that we know 02:20:39.500 --> 02:20:41.500 about was presented by the ancient 02:20:41.500 --> 02:20:43.500 Egyptians. 02:20:43.500 --> 02:20:45.500 So this is nothing new. 02:20:45.500 --> 02:20:47.500 Now in my own 02:20:47.500 --> 02:20:49.500 work I have 02:20:49.500 --> 02:20:51.500 classified 02:20:51.500 --> 02:20:53.500 some major 02:20:53.500 --> 02:20:55.500 plateaus 02:20:55.500 --> 02:20:57.500 including 02:20:57.500 --> 02:20:59.500 the last one, the one that 02:20:59.500 --> 02:21:01.500 we're at the end of now according to 02:21:01.500 --> 02:21:03.500 my system of history 02:21:03.500 --> 02:21:05.500 began 6,000 years ago 02:21:05.500 --> 02:21:07.500 or 5,500 years ago 02:21:07.500 --> 02:21:09.500 with the invention of the wheel 02:21:09.500 --> 02:21:11.500 and the 02:21:11.500 --> 02:21:13.500 first city states and stuff like that. 02:21:13.500 --> 02:21:15.500 Talking Schumer, talking 02:21:15.500 --> 02:21:17.500 Babylonia, talking ancient Egypt 02:21:17.500 --> 02:21:20.940 here. And 02:21:20.940 --> 02:21:22.940 so that's a 02:21:22.940 --> 02:21:24.940 6,000 year plateau. Now other people 02:21:24.940 --> 02:21:26.940 for example 02:21:26.940 --> 02:21:28.940 Bill Thompson, somebody we know 02:21:28.940 --> 02:21:30.940 and talk to about world cultural history 02:21:30.940 --> 02:21:32.940 he has a similar scheme 02:21:32.940 --> 02:21:34.940 in which the plateau 02:21:34.940 --> 02:21:36.940 now ending is only 02:21:36.940 --> 02:21:38.940 300 or 400 years old. 02:21:38.940 --> 02:21:40.940 See there were 02:21:40.940 --> 02:21:42.940 people who really wrote about 02:21:42.940 --> 02:21:44.940 this explosion idea 02:21:44.940 --> 02:21:46.940 in world cultural history was 02:21:46.940 --> 02:21:48.940 Jakob Burckhardt. Burckhardt said 02:21:48.940 --> 02:21:50.940 the renaissance was a quantum leap 02:21:50.940 --> 02:21:52.940 in world cultural history and then other people 02:21:52.940 --> 02:21:54.940 said well what about 02:21:54.940 --> 02:21:56.940 Giotto? What about 02:21:56.940 --> 02:21:58.940 Patatrio? What about Boccaccio? 02:21:58.940 --> 02:22:00.940 And 02:22:00.940 --> 02:22:02.940 the truth is that 02:22:02.940 --> 02:22:04.940 whenever you look at two 02:22:04.940 --> 02:22:06.940 major milestones 02:22:06.940 --> 02:22:08.940 in history and consider that 02:22:08.940 --> 02:22:10.940 between the milestones to be a sort of 02:22:10.940 --> 02:22:12.940 a level road then somebody will come along 02:22:12.940 --> 02:22:14.940 and find a smaller milestone 02:22:14.940 --> 02:22:16.940 in there. Nowadays 02:22:16.940 --> 02:22:18.940 we have fractal geometry so 02:22:18.940 --> 02:22:20.940 we think that this is natural 02:22:20.940 --> 02:22:22.940 between any two big catastrophes there will be 02:22:22.940 --> 02:22:24.940 10 smaller ones. Between any two 02:22:24.940 --> 02:22:26.940 of the smaller ones there will be 02:22:26.940 --> 02:22:28.940 40 or 50 little or tinier ones 02:22:28.940 --> 02:22:30.940 and so on. The first 02:22:30.940 --> 02:22:32.940 person I know who put forward 02:22:32.940 --> 02:22:34.940 such a fractal idea of history 02:22:34.940 --> 02:22:36.940 that it's not continuous 02:22:36.940 --> 02:22:38.940 it's discontinuous but the 02:22:38.940 --> 02:22:40.940 discontinuities are more or less dense 02:22:40.940 --> 02:22:42.940 as in a fractal the first such person is 02:22:42.940 --> 02:22:44.940 you Terence. I give you credit 02:22:44.940 --> 02:22:46.940 in writing in my entry 02:22:46.940 --> 02:22:48.940 in the Encyclopedia of Time 02:22:48.940 --> 02:22:50.940 you maybe have never read that book 02:22:50.940 --> 02:22:52.940 Never read it. Well 02:22:52.940 --> 02:22:54.940 there you'll find your name mentioned 02:22:54.940 --> 02:22:56.940 in a flattering way by me of all people 02:22:56.940 --> 02:22:58.940 Immortality at last 02:22:58.940 --> 02:23:00.940 At last 02:23:07.020 --> 02:23:09.020 Well to make a long story short 02:23:09.020 --> 02:23:11.020 it's these controversial 02:23:11.020 --> 02:23:13.020 plateaus of history that I'm going to 02:23:13.020 --> 02:23:15.020 call millennia and then 02:23:15.020 --> 02:23:17.020 if you want to go back to chapter 10 02:23:17.020 --> 02:23:19.020 of the evolutionary mind 02:23:19.020 --> 02:23:21.020 and read there about the history 02:23:21.020 --> 02:23:23.020 of the millenarial concept 02:23:23.020 --> 02:23:25.020 then you'll see that the first one 02:23:25.020 --> 02:23:27.020 wherein the number 1000 02:23:27.020 --> 02:23:29.020 was actually mentioned for the length of one 02:23:29.020 --> 02:23:31.020 of these plateaus. It gave his name to 02:23:31.020 --> 02:23:33.020 the thing. It was 02:23:33.020 --> 02:23:35.020 a special case of 02:23:35.020 --> 02:23:37.020 my more abstract idea of millennium 02:23:37.020 --> 02:23:39.020 It's the plateau of history 02:23:39.020 --> 02:23:41.020 and what I mean by the 02:23:41.020 --> 02:23:43.020 edge of millennium is those 02:23:43.020 --> 02:23:45.020 times when there's the 02:23:45.020 --> 02:23:47.020 plateau from one equilibrium 02:23:47.020 --> 02:23:49.020 to another 02:23:49.020 --> 02:23:51.020 Cro-Magnon comes out of 02:23:51.020 --> 02:23:53.020 Neanderthalus 02:23:53.020 --> 02:23:55.020 or whatever it is 02:23:55.020 --> 02:23:57.020 and Oxygen 02:23:57.020 --> 02:23:59.020 comes out of the 02:23:59.020 --> 02:24:01.020 archaeological background and whatever 02:24:01.020 --> 02:24:04.780 and the interest of this 02:24:04.780 --> 02:24:06.780 according to me 02:24:06.780 --> 02:24:08.780 why are we here? Who would talk about 02:24:08.780 --> 02:24:10.780 the evolutionary mind? Who cares 02:24:10.780 --> 02:24:12.780 about the 02:24:12.780 --> 02:24:14.780 good and evil and the evolution of species 02:24:14.780 --> 02:24:16.780 and so on? This must be 02:24:16.780 --> 02:24:18.780 interesting only to the 02:24:18.780 --> 02:24:20.780 degree to which it informs 02:24:20.780 --> 02:24:22.780 us in this very present moment 02:24:22.780 --> 02:24:24.780 regarding our 02:24:24.780 --> 02:24:26.780 choices that we will make in the 02:24:26.780 --> 02:24:28.780 creation of the future 02:24:28.780 --> 02:24:30.780 so according to chaos theory 02:24:30.780 --> 02:24:32.780 and its 02:24:32.780 --> 02:24:34.780 partner theory of bifurcation 02:24:34.780 --> 02:24:36.780 this is one of the main things that 02:24:36.780 --> 02:24:38.780 something like the butterfly effect 02:24:38.780 --> 02:24:40.780 that you've heard about 02:24:40.780 --> 02:24:42.780 in a dynamical system 02:24:42.780 --> 02:24:44.780 or a massively complex 02:24:44.780 --> 02:24:46.780 dynamical system such as we live in 02:24:46.780 --> 02:24:48.780 when there is a moment of bifurcation 02:24:48.780 --> 02:24:50.780 which is the technical math jargon for these snaps 02:24:50.780 --> 02:24:52.780 that is 02:24:52.780 --> 02:24:54.780 the only time you get to 02:24:54.780 --> 02:24:56.780 do anything about 02:24:56.780 --> 02:24:58.780 the evolution of the system 02:24:58.780 --> 02:25:00.780 so according to this 02:25:00.780 --> 02:25:02.780 self-inflating view 02:25:02.780 --> 02:25:04.780 we live at 02:25:04.780 --> 02:25:06.780 a specially important special moment in 02:25:06.780 --> 02:25:08.780 history where when 02:25:08.780 --> 02:25:10.780 we think something 02:25:10.780 --> 02:25:12.780 or do something it has actually 02:25:12.780 --> 02:25:14.780 an enormous effect on the future 02:25:14.780 --> 02:25:16.780 maybe not a direct 02:25:16.780 --> 02:25:18.780 determinative effect 02:25:18.780 --> 02:25:20.780 but we can't really say what the outcome will be 02:25:20.780 --> 02:25:22.780 but what we 02:25:22.780 --> 02:25:24.780 do has some influence 02:25:24.780 --> 02:25:26.780 on the creation of the future more 02:25:26.780 --> 02:25:28.780 than other times in history 02:25:28.780 --> 02:25:30.780 and the bigger the jump 02:25:30.780 --> 02:25:32.780 the bigger the leverage 02:25:32.780 --> 02:25:34.780 where Archimedes said give me a lever 02:25:34.780 --> 02:25:36.780 and I'll move the world 02:25:36.780 --> 02:25:38.780 we have a lever 02:25:38.780 --> 02:25:40.780 now 02:25:40.780 --> 02:25:42.780 and we care about what's coming next 02:25:42.780 --> 02:25:44.780 so that's why 02:25:44.780 --> 02:25:46.780 the edge of the millennium 02:25:46.780 --> 02:25:48.780 any edge 02:25:48.780 --> 02:25:50.780 of any of the millennia 02:25:50.780 --> 02:25:52.780 is particularly important 02:25:52.780 --> 02:25:54.780 to those revolutionary souls 02:25:54.780 --> 02:25:56.780 who want to make a change in things 02:25:56.780 --> 02:25:58.780 it's a special time 02:25:58.780 --> 02:26:00.780 a century or two centuries ago 02:26:00.780 --> 02:26:02.780 you could struggle for 02:26:02.780 --> 02:26:04.780 the creation of a chaos revolution 02:26:04.780 --> 02:26:06.780 and it would be impossible because 02:26:06.780 --> 02:26:08.780 there were no computers around 02:26:08.780 --> 02:26:10.780 or there were no movie makers in Hollywood 02:26:10.780 --> 02:26:12.780 or something, I don't know 02:26:12.780 --> 02:26:14.780 it takes more 02:26:14.780 --> 02:26:16.780 than we know about to create 02:26:16.780 --> 02:26:18.780 special opportunities 02:26:18.780 --> 02:26:20.780 and anyway that's what I mean by millennium 02:26:20.780 --> 02:26:22.780 and that's what I mean by at the edge of the millennium 02:26:22.780 --> 02:26:24.780 and now this is only a hypothesis 02:26:24.780 --> 02:26:26.780 for the sake of discussion 02:26:26.780 --> 02:26:28.780 but I kind of think that this 02:26:28.780 --> 02:26:30.780 is very credible 02:26:30.780 --> 02:26:32.780 that we are now at the edge of a millennium 02:26:32.780 --> 02:26:34.780 therefore 02:26:34.780 --> 02:26:36.780 we have to 02:26:36.780 --> 02:26:38.780 discuss this 02:26:38.780 --> 02:26:40.780 and the question that I'm going to 02:26:40.780 --> 02:26:42.780 pose to you Rupin Ter 02:26:42.780 --> 02:26:46.100 if this isn't 02:26:46.100 --> 02:26:48.100 too radical 02:26:48.100 --> 02:26:50.100 is to what degree 02:26:50.100 --> 02:26:52.100 do you think 02:26:52.100 --> 02:26:54.100 actually that what we are doing now 02:26:54.100 --> 02:26:56.100 matters in the creation of the future 02:26:56.100 --> 02:26:58.100 and if 02:26:58.100 --> 02:27:00.100 there is any possibility 02:27:00.100 --> 02:27:02.100 that what we do matters 02:27:02.100 --> 02:27:04.100 in the creation of the future 02:27:04.100 --> 02:27:06.100 what kind of future 02:27:06.100 --> 02:27:08.100 or what kind of change 02:27:08.100 --> 02:27:10.100 are we trying to create 02:27:10.100 --> 02:27:12.100 and to what degree 02:27:12.100 --> 02:27:14.100 what we are actually doing 02:27:14.100 --> 02:27:16.100 for example what we are talking about today 02:27:16.100 --> 02:27:18.100 what we are doing today 02:27:18.100 --> 02:27:20.100 could that possibly be 02:27:20.100 --> 02:27:22.100 a real effect 02:27:22.100 --> 02:27:24.100 a real benefit in 02:27:24.100 --> 02:27:26.100 creating the future that we want 02:27:26.100 --> 02:27:28.100 to create 02:27:28.100 --> 02:27:30.100 in contrast to other things 02:27:30.100 --> 02:27:32.100 that we might do 02:27:32.100 --> 02:27:34.100 like go to the beach and pray 02:27:34.100 --> 02:27:36.100 or whatever 02:27:40.100 --> 02:27:42.100 and particularly 02:27:45.540 --> 02:27:47.540 should I stop here 02:27:47.540 --> 02:27:49.540 I'm not sure 02:27:49.540 --> 02:27:51.540 yes well I'm trying to make this easier 02:27:51.540 --> 02:27:53.540 for you because I think this might be 02:27:53.540 --> 02:27:55.540 too difficult 02:27:55.540 --> 02:27:57.540 as we 02:27:57.540 --> 02:27:59.540 well I mean I think I said this morning 02:27:59.540 --> 02:28:01.540 or maybe I didn't but I 02:28:01.540 --> 02:28:03.540 believe it and have said it many times 02:28:03.540 --> 02:28:05.540 salvation is an act of 02:28:05.540 --> 02:28:07.540 cognitive apprehension 02:28:07.540 --> 02:28:09.540 so we do matter 02:28:09.540 --> 02:28:11.540 because to the degree that we 02:28:11.540 --> 02:28:13.540 are ignorant of 02:28:13.540 --> 02:28:15.540 vidya in the Buddhist 02:28:15.540 --> 02:28:17.540 lexicon we retard 02:28:17.540 --> 02:28:19.540 universal progress towards 02:28:19.540 --> 02:28:21.540 some kind of enlightenment 02:28:21.540 --> 02:28:23.540 but the doctrine of vidya 02:28:23.540 --> 02:28:25.540 this is standing for all time since 02:28:25.540 --> 02:28:27.540 1800 BC 02:28:27.540 --> 02:28:29.540 do you agree that this is a special 02:28:29.540 --> 02:28:31.540 moment 02:28:31.540 --> 02:28:33.540 yes I think so not only a 02:28:33.540 --> 02:28:35.540 special moment but the other thing 02:28:35.540 --> 02:28:37.540 I would call people's attention to 02:28:37.540 --> 02:28:39.540 is the fact that no matter 02:28:39.540 --> 02:28:41.540 whether you scanned your way 02:28:41.540 --> 02:28:43.540 in here today and no matter whether 02:28:43.540 --> 02:28:45.540 you are going to go back to 02:28:45.540 --> 02:28:47.540 appliance box 02:28:47.540 --> 02:28:49.540 that you live in 02:28:49.540 --> 02:28:51.540 or a bridge 02:28:51.540 --> 02:28:53.540 the odds are that you 02:28:53.540 --> 02:28:55.540 you are 02:28:55.540 --> 02:28:57.540 very close to 02:28:57.540 --> 02:28:59.540 the top of the pyramid 02:28:59.540 --> 02:29:01.540 of global empowerment 02:29:01.540 --> 02:29:03.540 you are 02:29:03.540 --> 02:29:05.540 mostly white 02:29:05.540 --> 02:29:07.540 mostly well educated 02:29:07.540 --> 02:29:09.540 mostly have enough 02:29:09.540 --> 02:29:11.540 disposable income to come to 02:29:11.540 --> 02:29:13.540 an event like this 02:29:13.540 --> 02:29:15.540 it's worth pointing out that all that 02:29:15.540 --> 02:29:17.540 rides on the backs of those 02:29:17.540 --> 02:29:19.540 who do not have 02:29:19.540 --> 02:29:21.540 such privilege 02:29:21.540 --> 02:29:23.540 this is a moment of 02:29:23.540 --> 02:29:25.540 enormous opportunity and those 02:29:25.540 --> 02:29:27.540 who find themselves in this moment 02:29:27.540 --> 02:29:29.540 with power 02:29:29.540 --> 02:29:31.540 defined however you care to define it 02:29:31.540 --> 02:29:33.540 have a moral 02:29:33.540 --> 02:29:35.540 obligation 02:29:35.540 --> 02:29:37.540 to act and I don't 02:29:37.540 --> 02:29:39.540 advocate a certain 02:29:39.540 --> 02:29:41.540 political agenda not that we must 02:29:41.540 --> 02:29:43.540 become Marxists or that we must 02:29:43.540 --> 02:29:45.540 become anything what we must 02:29:45.540 --> 02:29:47.540 become is clear 02:29:47.540 --> 02:29:49.540 we 02:29:49.540 --> 02:29:51.540 have the technologies 02:29:51.540 --> 02:29:53.540 and the informational 02:29:53.540 --> 02:29:55.540 structures and all the necessary 02:29:55.540 --> 02:29:57.540 abilities to create 02:29:57.540 --> 02:29:59.540 paradise on earth 02:29:59.540 --> 02:30:01.540 to lift up the least among us 02:30:01.540 --> 02:30:03.540 to at least an acceptable 02:30:03.540 --> 02:30:05.540 level 02:30:05.540 --> 02:30:07.540 of comfort and freedom 02:30:07.540 --> 02:30:09.540 why do we not do that 02:30:09.540 --> 02:30:11.540 because what stands in our way 02:30:11.540 --> 02:30:13.540 is our own minds 02:30:13.540 --> 02:30:15.540 our own habits 02:30:15.540 --> 02:30:17.540 we must change our 02:30:17.540 --> 02:30:19.540 minds that's 02:30:19.540 --> 02:30:21.540 the most powerful political 02:30:21.540 --> 02:30:23.540 work people in this room 02:30:23.540 --> 02:30:25.540 could do and there is nobody 02:30:25.540 --> 02:30:27.540 who is so enlightened that 02:30:27.540 --> 02:30:29.540 they don't need to work 02:30:29.540 --> 02:30:31.540 on themselves and do this 02:30:31.540 --> 02:30:33.540 to the degree that we can change 02:30:33.540 --> 02:30:35.540 our minds we will 02:30:35.540 --> 02:30:37.540 escape extinction 02:30:37.540 --> 02:30:39.540 marginality and so forth 02:30:39.540 --> 02:30:41.540 and so on and to the degree that we cannot 02:30:41.540 --> 02:30:43.540 change our minds we 02:30:43.540 --> 02:30:45.540 will prolong the agony 02:30:45.540 --> 02:30:47.540 perhaps unto death and 02:30:47.540 --> 02:30:49.540 extinction perhaps only 02:30:49.540 --> 02:30:51.540 making the struggle 02:30:51.540 --> 02:30:53.540 more difficult but yes 02:30:53.540 --> 02:30:55.540 this is a moment of enormous 02:30:55.540 --> 02:30:57.540 opportunity we have a yes 02:30:57.540 --> 02:30:59.540 a yes 02:30:59.540 --> 02:31:04.830 so we 02:31:04.830 --> 02:31:06.830 you agree that it's a moment 02:31:06.830 --> 02:31:08.830 of special opportunity over the long 02:31:08.830 --> 02:31:10.830 and short scales of time according 02:31:10.830 --> 02:31:12.830 to either 02:31:12.830 --> 02:31:14.830 mathematics or 02:31:14.830 --> 02:31:16.830 novelty theory yes 02:31:16.830 --> 02:31:18.830 and you 02:31:18.830 --> 02:31:20.830 agree that we have a 02:31:20.830 --> 02:31:22.830 responsibility to do our best 02:31:22.830 --> 02:31:24.830 yes and what you 02:31:24.830 --> 02:31:26.830 have to tell us is that if the 02:31:26.830 --> 02:31:28.830 200 of us here 02:31:28.830 --> 02:31:30.830 change our minds that 02:31:30.830 --> 02:31:32.830 that would somehow have an 02:31:32.830 --> 02:31:34.830 effect on the rest of the 02:31:34.830 --> 02:31:36.830 world and our creation of the future 02:31:36.830 --> 02:31:38.830 yes how 02:31:38.830 --> 02:31:40.830 how would it 02:31:40.830 --> 02:31:42.830 have this effect yes by 02:31:42.830 --> 02:31:44.830 telepathic means 02:31:44.830 --> 02:31:46.830 by the romance of 02:31:46.830 --> 02:31:48.830 photons no I think by 02:31:48.830 --> 02:31:50.830 the spread of clarity 02:31:50.830 --> 02:31:55.300 the spread of 02:31:55.300 --> 02:31:57.300 clarity the 02:31:57.300 --> 02:31:59.300 elimination of redundancy in 02:31:59.300 --> 02:32:01.300 the system and 02:32:01.300 --> 02:32:03.300 the spreading 02:32:03.300 --> 02:32:05.300 of a sense of shared purpose 02:32:05.300 --> 02:32:07.300 and the possibility of achieving 02:32:07.300 --> 02:32:09.300 that purpose 02:32:09.300 --> 02:32:11.300 it doesn't matter what you do 02:32:11.300 --> 02:32:13.300 beyond changing 02:32:13.300 --> 02:32:15.300 your mind for a better clarity 02:32:17.300 --> 02:32:19.300 well I don't want to say absolutely 02:32:19.300 --> 02:32:21.300 it doesn't matter but I think that's 02:32:21.300 --> 02:32:23.300 the first obligation if you charge 02:32:23.300 --> 02:32:25.300 off with some political agenda 02:32:25.300 --> 02:32:27.300 that is not informed by 02:32:27.300 --> 02:32:29.300 clarity you're going to end up with 02:32:29.300 --> 02:32:31.300 business as usual the road to hell 02:32:31.300 --> 02:32:33.300 is paved with good intentions 02:32:33.300 --> 02:32:35.300 but it is not 02:32:35.300 --> 02:32:37.300 paved with clarity 02:32:37.300 --> 02:32:39.300 laughter 02:32:39.300 --> 02:32:46.540 so your 02:32:46.540 --> 02:32:48.540 for example what you do in 02:32:48.540 --> 02:32:50.540 life you barnstorm giving lectures 02:32:50.540 --> 02:32:52.540 you write 02:32:52.540 --> 02:32:54.540 books and you create a website 02:32:54.540 --> 02:32:56.540 and the 02:32:56.540 --> 02:32:58.540 effect of this hopefully will be 02:32:58.540 --> 02:33:00.540 to promote clarity 02:33:00.540 --> 02:33:07.180 correct first of all I 02:33:07.180 --> 02:33:09.180 certainly agree that for me personally 02:33:09.180 --> 02:33:11.180 psychedelic experience has 02:33:11.180 --> 02:33:13.180 enhanced clarity where some people 02:33:13.180 --> 02:33:15.180 think the opposite 02:33:15.180 --> 02:33:17.180 well let us have vigorous debate 02:33:17.180 --> 02:33:19.180 by informed parties 02:33:19.180 --> 02:33:21.180 laughter 02:33:21.180 --> 02:33:23.180 applause 02:33:23.180 --> 02:33:32.130 don't forget 02:33:32.130 --> 02:33:34.130 I've given over 300 calculus 02:33:34.130 --> 02:33:36.130 lectures in this room 02:33:36.130 --> 02:33:38.130 laughter 02:33:38.130 --> 02:33:40.130 it boggles my mind to look out and think 02:33:40.130 --> 02:33:42.130 well yeah this is Santa Cruz 02:33:42.130 --> 02:33:44.130 it must be Santa Cruz 02:33:44.130 --> 02:33:46.130 laughter 02:33:46.130 --> 02:33:48.130 what do you think Rupert 02:33:48.130 --> 02:33:50.130 laughter 02:33:50.130 --> 02:33:52.130 the question really is I mean changing minds 02:33:52.130 --> 02:33:54.130 we're talking 02:33:54.130 --> 02:33:56.130 you were talking about the butterfly wing effect 02:33:56.130 --> 02:33:58.130 the question is if we change our minds 02:33:58.130 --> 02:34:00.130 can it have a larger effect 02:34:00.130 --> 02:34:02.130 on other people's minds 02:34:02.130 --> 02:34:04.130 because if we decide to recycle 02:34:04.130 --> 02:34:06.130 yet more newspaper and so on 02:34:06.130 --> 02:34:08.130 it's not going to have that much effect 02:34:08.130 --> 02:34:10.130 the changing mind thing 02:34:10.130 --> 02:34:12.130 the butterfly wing analogy 02:34:12.130 --> 02:34:14.130 suggests some major change 02:34:14.130 --> 02:34:16.130 of mind spreading through our culture 02:34:16.130 --> 02:34:18.130 now I suspect 02:34:18.130 --> 02:34:20.130 that you think the medium for this 02:34:20.130 --> 02:34:22.130 transformation is the world wide web 02:34:22.130 --> 02:34:24.130 laughter 02:34:24.130 --> 02:34:26.130 I suspect that Terence thinks the medium is 02:34:26.130 --> 02:34:28.130 well I think telepathy is equally powerful 02:34:28.130 --> 02:34:30.130 laughter 02:34:30.130 --> 02:34:32.130 yes but um 02:34:32.130 --> 02:34:34.130 wait I want to hear his suspicion 02:34:34.130 --> 02:34:36.130 laughter 02:34:36.130 --> 02:34:38.130 world wide web 02:34:38.130 --> 02:34:40.130 yes I think 02:34:40.130 --> 02:34:48.140 I still haven't understood the psychedelic drug agenda 02:34:48.140 --> 02:34:50.140 Britain has the highest percentage 02:34:50.140 --> 02:34:52.140 of psychedelic drug consumption 02:34:52.140 --> 02:34:54.140 in the western world at the moment 02:34:54.140 --> 02:34:56.140 and it's not entirely clear 02:34:56.140 --> 02:34:58.140 that this has resulted in clarity spreading 02:34:58.140 --> 02:35:02.610 laughter 02:35:02.610 --> 02:35:04.610 Britain is the source of 02:35:04.610 --> 02:35:06.610 and the fountain head of the world wide 02:35:06.610 --> 02:35:08.610 youth culture that is creating 02:35:08.610 --> 02:35:10.610 the new music the new dance 02:35:10.610 --> 02:35:12.610 the new forms of 02:35:12.610 --> 02:35:14.610 community and the new resistance 02:35:14.610 --> 02:35:16.610 to consumerist values 02:35:16.610 --> 02:35:18.610 so don't sell the old UK 02:35:18.610 --> 02:35:20.610 come to the rave tonight and see 02:35:20.610 --> 02:35:22.610 clarity created 02:35:22.610 --> 02:35:24.610 yes yes 02:35:24.610 --> 02:35:26.610 the crucible of clarity is home at last place 02:35:26.610 --> 02:35:28.610 laughter 02:35:28.610 --> 02:35:30.610 and Terence takes the microphone 02:35:30.610 --> 02:35:32.610 laughter 02:35:32.610 --> 02:35:34.610 laughter 02:35:34.610 --> 02:35:36.610 well it's not always 02:35:36.610 --> 02:35:38.610 perfectly clear what's going on 02:35:38.610 --> 02:35:40.610 when you have your nose in it 02:35:40.610 --> 02:35:42.610 laughter 02:35:42.610 --> 02:35:44.610 laughter 02:35:44.610 --> 02:35:46.610 I mean my own agenda 02:35:46.610 --> 02:35:48.610 relies partly on the world wide web 02:35:48.610 --> 02:35:50.610 not as strongly as yours 02:35:50.610 --> 02:35:52.610 and I 02:35:52.610 --> 02:35:54.610 here in this room is Matthew Clapp 02:35:54.610 --> 02:35:56.610 who kindly runs my world wide website 02:35:56.610 --> 02:35:58.610 um 02:35:58.610 --> 02:36:00.610 jailbreak.org 02:36:00.610 --> 02:36:02.610 laughter 02:36:02.610 --> 02:36:04.610 so but my own view 02:36:04.610 --> 02:36:06.610 is that this clarity 02:36:06.610 --> 02:36:08.610 involves breaking the spell 02:36:08.610 --> 02:36:10.610 of 02:36:10.610 --> 02:36:12.610 rationalism cartesianism 02:36:12.610 --> 02:36:14.610 a spell woven more powerfully than ever 02:36:14.610 --> 02:36:16.610 before this morning by Terence 02:36:16.610 --> 02:36:18.610 um I mean it took on a new 02:36:18.610 --> 02:36:20.610 level of spell binding 02:36:20.610 --> 02:36:22.610 um in the way you 02:36:22.610 --> 02:36:24.610 described it it's to 02:36:24.610 --> 02:36:26.610 recognize that we're far more 02:36:26.610 --> 02:36:28.610 interconnected we're far more 02:36:28.610 --> 02:36:30.610 participatory in our relation with the world 02:36:30.610 --> 02:36:32.610 than this cognitive 02:36:32.610 --> 02:36:34.610 kind of science and cognitive 02:36:34.610 --> 02:36:36.610 model of the mind would tell us 02:36:36.610 --> 02:36:38.610 and so I think the secret to 02:36:38.610 --> 02:36:40.610 waking us up 02:36:40.610 --> 02:36:42.610 one of the secrets is psychic pets 02:36:42.610 --> 02:36:44.610 as you know this is one of my 02:36:44.610 --> 02:36:46.610 other themes 02:36:46.610 --> 02:36:48.610 laughter 02:36:48.610 --> 02:36:50.610 and the purpose of 02:36:50.610 --> 02:36:52.610 I wrote a book which some of you may have seen 02:36:52.610 --> 02:36:54.610 called seven experiments that could change 02:36:54.610 --> 02:36:56.610 the world the purpose of this 02:36:56.610 --> 02:36:58.610 was to find simple experiments 02:36:58.610 --> 02:37:00.610 that could give us clarity on 02:37:00.610 --> 02:37:02.610 issues that we know about 02:37:02.610 --> 02:37:04.610 already which could actually have 02:37:04.610 --> 02:37:06.610 a transformative effect on our view 02:37:06.610 --> 02:37:08.610 of the world they're to do with changing our 02:37:08.610 --> 02:37:10.610 scientific view of the world 02:37:10.610 --> 02:37:12.610 and the scientific view of the world 02:37:12.610 --> 02:37:14.610 is a particularly important part of 02:37:14.610 --> 02:37:16.610 this spell that binds 02:37:16.610 --> 02:37:18.610 us all and that affects our whole 02:37:18.610 --> 02:37:20.610 civilization 02:37:20.610 --> 02:37:22.610 our whole industrial culture 02:37:22.610 --> 02:37:24.610 and it's an exceptionally narrow 02:37:24.610 --> 02:37:26.610 and dissociated view of the world 02:37:26.610 --> 02:37:28.610 at the moment the reason 02:37:28.610 --> 02:37:30.610 I think psychic pets could play 02:37:30.610 --> 02:37:32.610 this part is first of all there's more of them 02:37:32.610 --> 02:37:34.610 than psychedelics 02:37:34.610 --> 02:37:36.610 I mean they're everywhere 02:37:36.610 --> 02:37:38.610 there are lots and lots of dogs and cats 02:37:38.610 --> 02:37:40.610 that have telepathic bonds 02:37:40.610 --> 02:37:42.610 with their owners about 02:37:42.610 --> 02:37:44.610 50% of Americans feel that 02:37:44.610 --> 02:37:46.610 they've had a telepathic bond with an animal 02:37:46.610 --> 02:37:48.610 now to recognize 02:37:48.610 --> 02:37:50.610 what so many people already know 02:37:50.610 --> 02:37:52.610 through experiments 02:37:52.610 --> 02:37:54.610 to test these to see if they're real 02:37:54.610 --> 02:37:56.610 and so far the experiments suggest they are real 02:37:56.610 --> 02:37:58.610 this 02:37:58.610 --> 02:38:00.610 can give permission for people to recognize 02:38:00.610 --> 02:38:02.610 what they already know 02:38:02.610 --> 02:38:04.610 then all these closet holists 02:38:04.610 --> 02:38:06.610 most of us are 02:38:06.610 --> 02:38:08.610 closet holists can come out 02:38:08.610 --> 02:38:10.610 and 02:38:10.610 --> 02:38:12.610 recognize that there's this kind of 02:38:12.610 --> 02:38:14.610 interconnection with other species and with 02:38:14.610 --> 02:38:16.610 each other that's been going on 02:38:16.610 --> 02:38:18.610 all the time but which has been 02:38:18.610 --> 02:38:20.610 suppressed from the level of supposedly 02:38:20.610 --> 02:38:22.610 rational discourse by the idea 02:38:22.610 --> 02:38:24.610 that this is all superstition 02:38:24.610 --> 02:38:26.610 it's not scientific it's irrational 02:38:26.610 --> 02:38:28.610 and so forth I think that 02:38:28.610 --> 02:38:30.610 one of the big difficulties 02:38:30.610 --> 02:38:32.610 in our culture is the split between 02:38:32.610 --> 02:38:34.610 the rational educated part of our minds 02:38:34.610 --> 02:38:36.610 which we put on in public 02:38:36.610 --> 02:38:38.610 and the participatory sense 02:38:38.610 --> 02:38:40.610 of connection which we have at home 02:38:40.610 --> 02:38:42.610 with gardens, plants, children 02:38:42.610 --> 02:38:44.610 animals, lovers 02:38:44.610 --> 02:38:46.610 and our nearest and dearest 02:38:46.610 --> 02:38:48.610 and these are so dissociated 02:38:48.610 --> 02:38:50.610 that it's very hard for people to recognize 02:38:50.610 --> 02:38:52.610 that they're related 02:38:52.610 --> 02:38:54.610 in any way 02:38:54.610 --> 02:38:56.610 lots of dogs know when their owners are coming home 02:38:56.610 --> 02:38:58.610 in a kind of telepathic manner 02:38:58.610 --> 02:39:00.610 and wait at the door for them 02:39:00.610 --> 02:39:02.610 while they're on the way home 02:39:02.610 --> 02:39:04.610 I calculate that tens of thousands of American scientists 02:39:04.610 --> 02:39:06.610 have dogs waiting at the door for them 02:39:06.610 --> 02:39:08.610 when they get home from the laboratory 02:39:08.610 --> 02:39:10.610 even if they come at unusual times 02:39:10.610 --> 02:39:12.610 and in an unusual way 02:39:12.610 --> 02:39:14.610 yet this phenomenon has been 02:39:14.610 --> 02:39:16.610 so subject to taboo 02:39:16.610 --> 02:39:18.610 that it's never been investigated scientifically 02:39:18.610 --> 02:39:20.610 at all, it could have been investigated 02:39:20.610 --> 02:39:22.610 at any time in the last 02:39:22.610 --> 02:39:24.610 500 or 5000 years 02:39:24.610 --> 02:39:26.610 but the fact is the first investigations 02:39:26.610 --> 02:39:28.610 are happening 02:39:28.610 --> 02:39:30.610 at present 02:39:30.610 --> 02:39:32.610 here in the room is David Brown 02:39:32.610 --> 02:39:34.610 who works with me, is based in Santa Cruz 02:39:34.610 --> 02:39:36.610 and is doing experiments with psychic 02:39:36.610 --> 02:39:38.610 dogs, cats and cockatiels 02:39:38.610 --> 02:39:40.610 in Santa Cruz County 02:39:40.610 --> 02:39:42.610 and if any of you have such animals 02:39:42.610 --> 02:39:44.610 please let him or me know at the end 02:39:44.610 --> 02:39:46.610 we'd love to investigate your animals 02:39:46.610 --> 02:39:50.610 and you can take part in this research 02:39:50.610 --> 02:39:52.610 so I think that grassroots research 02:39:52.610 --> 02:39:54.610 based on phenomena that are actually 02:39:54.610 --> 02:39:56.610 common sense that are part of everyday life 02:39:56.610 --> 02:39:58.610 for many people 02:39:58.610 --> 02:40:00.610 could help to wake us up 02:40:00.610 --> 02:40:02.610 to give a greater clarity about what's really 02:40:02.610 --> 02:40:04.610 going on 02:40:04.610 --> 02:40:06.610 and make us recognize that there's far more 02:40:06.610 --> 02:40:08.610 interconnection between us and other species 02:40:08.610 --> 02:40:10.610 and us and other people 02:40:10.610 --> 02:40:12.610 than is admitted in the scientific view 02:40:12.610 --> 02:40:14.610 of things, which is the world view 02:40:14.610 --> 02:40:16.610 which most people feel they have permission 02:40:16.610 --> 02:40:18.610 to talk about in public 02:40:18.610 --> 02:40:20.610 so I think that this transition 02:40:20.610 --> 02:40:22.610 a butterfly wing effect 02:40:22.610 --> 02:40:24.610 would be a few 02:40:24.610 --> 02:40:26.610 dogs and cats that do this 02:40:26.610 --> 02:40:28.610 being proved scientifically to be able to do it 02:40:28.610 --> 02:40:30.610 shown on TV 02:40:30.610 --> 02:40:32.610 would probably 02:40:32.610 --> 02:40:34.610 overnight give millions of people 02:40:34.610 --> 02:40:36.610 permission to recognize and talk about 02:40:36.610 --> 02:40:38.610 these events in their own lives 02:40:38.610 --> 02:40:40.610 and never again would the subject be able to be 02:40:40.610 --> 02:40:42.610 stuffed back into the closet 02:40:42.610 --> 02:40:44.610 I think these could lead to 02:40:44.610 --> 02:40:46.610 a great change in the way we think about the world 02:40:46.610 --> 02:40:48.610 now it's not, of course 02:40:48.610 --> 02:40:50.610 it's several steps from that 02:40:50.610 --> 02:40:52.610 to solving the ecological problems of the world 02:40:52.610 --> 02:40:54.610 to dealing with the problem of 02:40:54.610 --> 02:40:56.610 multinational corporations and so on 02:40:56.610 --> 02:40:58.610 but it's a step towards clarity 02:40:58.610 --> 02:41:00.610 and it's one that could spread very quickly 02:41:00.610 --> 02:41:02.610 Well, it seems to me 02:41:02.610 --> 02:41:04.610 the overarching theme here 02:41:04.610 --> 02:41:06.610 that unites all three of our positions 02:41:06.610 --> 02:41:08.610 is boundary dissolution 02:41:08.610 --> 02:41:10.610 psychedelic drugs 02:41:10.610 --> 02:41:12.610 dissolve boundaries 02:41:12.610 --> 02:41:14.610 the world wide web dissolves 02:41:14.610 --> 02:41:16.610 boundaries and certainly 02:41:16.610 --> 02:41:18.610 the discovery that our pets 02:41:18.610 --> 02:41:20.610 are communicating, anticipating 02:41:20.610 --> 02:41:22.610 and understanding us is a boundary 02:41:22.610 --> 02:41:24.610 dissolving perception 02:41:24.610 --> 02:41:26.610 so really what we're saying 02:41:26.610 --> 02:41:28.610 is we must dissolve 02:41:28.610 --> 02:41:30.610 the artificial boundaries 02:41:30.610 --> 02:41:32.610 that confine 02:41:32.610 --> 02:41:34.610 our perceptions 02:41:34.610 --> 02:41:36.610 someone once said 02:41:36.610 --> 02:41:38.610 if we could feel what we are doing 02:41:38.610 --> 02:41:40.610 to the earth 02:41:40.610 --> 02:41:42.610 we would stop immediately 02:41:42.610 --> 02:41:44.610 because a man hitting himself on the head 02:41:44.610 --> 02:41:46.610 with a ball peen hammer 02:41:46.610 --> 02:41:48.610 stops immediately 02:41:48.610 --> 02:41:50.610 the feedback loop is very short 02:41:50.610 --> 02:41:52.610 so we have 02:41:52.610 --> 02:41:54.610 compartmentalized our lives 02:41:54.610 --> 02:41:56.610 and this allows us 02:41:56.610 --> 02:41:58.610 to do the fateful 02:41:58.610 --> 02:42:00.610 and lethal work 02:42:00.610 --> 02:42:02.610 that is destroying the planet 02:42:02.610 --> 02:42:04.610 destroying community 02:42:04.610 --> 02:42:06.610 so forth and so on 02:42:06.610 --> 02:42:08.610 so maybe three answers 02:42:08.610 --> 02:42:10.610 as diverse as you've just heard here 02:42:10.610 --> 02:42:12.610 you might search your own soul 02:42:12.610 --> 02:42:14.610 and ask 02:42:14.610 --> 02:42:16.610 what obsession or interest of mine 02:42:16.610 --> 02:42:18.610 would contribute 02:42:18.610 --> 02:42:20.610 to the grand project 02:42:20.610 --> 02:42:22.610 of boundary dissolution 02:42:22.610 --> 02:42:24.610 certainly 02:42:24.610 --> 02:42:26.610 it is not the affirmation 02:42:26.610 --> 02:42:28.610 of cultural values 02:42:28.610 --> 02:42:30.610 culture is a scheme 02:42:30.610 --> 02:42:32.610 for maintaining and creating 02:42:32.610 --> 02:42:34.610 boundaries 02:42:34.610 --> 02:42:36.610 it replaces reality 02:42:36.610 --> 02:42:38.610 with a linguistically supported 02:42:38.610 --> 02:42:40.610 delusion 02:42:40.610 --> 02:42:42.610 and behind that delusion 02:42:42.610 --> 02:42:44.610 then pogroms 02:42:44.610 --> 02:42:46.610 genocide 02:42:46.610 --> 02:42:48.610 arms races 02:42:48.610 --> 02:42:50.610 sexism 02:42:50.610 --> 02:42:52.610 racism 02:42:52.610 --> 02:42:54.610 all can operate very very comfortably 02:42:54.610 --> 02:42:56.610 Ralph earlier mentioned love 02:42:56.610 --> 02:42:58.610 generally speaking 02:42:58.610 --> 02:43:00.610 love is a boundary dissolving 02:43:00.610 --> 02:43:02.610 enterprise 02:43:02.610 --> 02:43:04.610 so I think each of us 02:43:04.610 --> 02:43:06.610 the three of us 02:43:06.610 --> 02:43:08.610 all of you 02:43:08.610 --> 02:43:10.610 in our way 02:43:10.610 --> 02:43:12.610 should find ways to express love 02:43:12.610 --> 02:43:14.610 it's a very practical matter 02:43:14.610 --> 02:43:16.610 that has thousands of expressions 02:43:16.610 --> 02:43:18.610 as long as we 02:43:18.610 --> 02:43:20.610 believe in mind and matter 02:43:20.610 --> 02:43:22.610 rich and poor 02:43:22.610 --> 02:43:24.610 living and dead 02:43:24.610 --> 02:43:26.610 aboriginal and advanced 02:43:26.610 --> 02:43:28.610 black and white 02:43:28.610 --> 02:43:30.610 man and woman 02:43:30.610 --> 02:43:32.610 then we're inevitably going to carry on 02:43:32.610 --> 02:43:34.610 a dualistic analysis of our dilemma 02:43:34.610 --> 02:43:36.610 and we're going to produce 02:43:36.610 --> 02:43:38.610 incomplete agendas and answers 02:43:38.610 --> 02:43:45.730 applause 02:43:45.730 --> 02:43:47.730 well this is 02:43:47.730 --> 02:43:49.730 good I agree with everything 02:43:49.730 --> 02:43:51.730 and I admire you both for your 02:43:51.730 --> 02:43:53.730 revolutionary efforts 02:43:53.730 --> 02:43:55.730 nevertheless I can't help 02:43:55.730 --> 02:43:57.730 having a sinking feeling 02:43:57.730 --> 02:43:59.730 here we are in the University of California 02:43:59.730 --> 02:44:01.730 naturally 02:44:01.730 --> 02:44:03.730 my thoughts turn to the educational 02:44:03.730 --> 02:44:05.730 system now we have 02:44:05.730 --> 02:44:07.730 here a group 02:44:07.730 --> 02:44:09.730 I know there are actually a few undergraduates 02:44:09.730 --> 02:44:11.730 of the University of California 02:44:11.730 --> 02:44:13.730 at Santa Cruz are here by accident as it were 02:44:13.730 --> 02:44:15.730 and that's cool 02:44:15.730 --> 02:44:17.730 but we have not yet taken over 02:44:17.730 --> 02:44:19.730 one regularly offered course 02:44:19.730 --> 02:44:21.730 of the University 02:44:21.730 --> 02:44:23.730 to enable students 02:44:23.730 --> 02:44:25.730 to learn science 02:44:25.730 --> 02:44:27.730 by doing research projects 02:44:27.730 --> 02:44:29.730 with psychic pets 02:44:29.730 --> 02:44:31.730 well Ralph 02:44:31.730 --> 02:44:33.730 the University is the last place 02:44:33.730 --> 02:44:35.730 where you would look for this 02:44:35.730 --> 02:44:37.730 the University is the manufacturer 02:44:37.730 --> 02:44:39.730 of these cultural values 02:44:39.730 --> 02:44:41.730 that imprison us 02:44:41.730 --> 02:44:43.730 well that's why I'm bringing up this subject of education 02:44:43.730 --> 02:44:45.730 at this time 02:44:45.730 --> 02:44:47.730 I think we've discussed the problem of education before 02:44:47.730 --> 02:44:49.730 my experience is that no amount 02:44:49.730 --> 02:44:51.730 of clarity in this group 02:44:51.730 --> 02:44:53.730 of 200 and other like groups 02:44:53.730 --> 02:44:55.730 is going to matter one whit 02:44:55.730 --> 02:44:57.730 when we are all adults 02:44:57.730 --> 02:44:59.730 you see 02:44:59.730 --> 02:45:01.730 the next generation 02:45:01.730 --> 02:45:03.730 will have to face the same butterfly 02:45:03.730 --> 02:45:05.730 problem with the same 02:45:05.730 --> 02:45:07.730 lever because the majority of people 02:45:07.730 --> 02:45:09.730 will have their 02:45:09.730 --> 02:45:11.730 paradigm set in 02:45:11.730 --> 02:45:13.730 K through 12 in some archaic 02:45:13.730 --> 02:45:15.730 school system that sees its primary 02:45:15.730 --> 02:45:17.730 business to work against 02:45:17.730 --> 02:45:19.730 a worldwide cultural revolution 02:45:19.730 --> 02:45:21.730 so the inertia 02:45:21.730 --> 02:45:23.730 we have to overcome inertia 02:45:23.730 --> 02:45:25.730 and we can talk about religion 02:45:25.730 --> 02:45:27.730 and psychedelics and getting clarity 02:45:27.730 --> 02:45:29.730 and so on 02:45:29.730 --> 02:45:31.730 we know that the scientific establishment 02:45:31.730 --> 02:45:33.730 is a big obstacle 02:45:33.730 --> 02:45:35.730 as far as environmental problems are concerned 02:45:35.730 --> 02:45:37.730 and so Rupert's work 02:45:37.730 --> 02:45:39.730 the ultimate effect will be to deconstruct 02:45:39.730 --> 02:45:41.730 or revolutionize science 02:45:41.730 --> 02:45:43.730 is very important in making a transformation 02:45:43.730 --> 02:45:45.730 among adult scientists worldwide 02:45:45.730 --> 02:45:47.730 how can this matter at all 02:45:47.730 --> 02:45:49.730 if there is no change 02:45:49.730 --> 02:45:51.730 in the educational system K through 12 02:45:51.730 --> 02:45:53.730 pre-K, pre-pre-K 02:45:53.730 --> 02:45:55.730 and back to the womb 02:45:55.730 --> 02:45:57.730 the parents and so on 02:45:57.730 --> 02:45:59.730 that this chicken and egg loop 02:45:59.730 --> 02:46:01.730 has got to be touched somewhere 02:46:01.730 --> 02:46:03.730 in a more sensitive 02:46:03.730 --> 02:46:05.730 spot than the adult community 02:46:07.730 --> 02:46:09.730 and what do you propose 02:46:09.730 --> 02:46:11.730 well you work with youth 02:46:11.730 --> 02:46:13.730 I guess you are interested 02:46:13.730 --> 02:46:15.730 in talking with younger people 02:46:15.730 --> 02:46:17.730 and Rupert I know 02:46:17.730 --> 02:46:19.730 that you are particularly active in education 02:46:19.730 --> 02:46:21.730 through the existence of 02:46:21.730 --> 02:46:23.730 your children who are now subject 02:46:23.730 --> 02:46:25.730 to the educational system 02:46:25.730 --> 02:46:27.730 that 02:46:27.730 --> 02:46:29.730 that does this criminal 02:46:29.730 --> 02:46:31.730 brainwashing that I am talking about 02:46:31.730 --> 02:46:33.730 so 02:46:33.730 --> 02:46:35.730 I am just posing this now 02:46:35.730 --> 02:46:37.730 do you have any idea as to 02:46:37.730 --> 02:46:39.730 the transformation of our school system 02:46:39.730 --> 02:46:41.730 by a change of curriculum 02:46:41.730 --> 02:46:43.730 or the 02:46:43.730 --> 02:46:45.730 entrance of any 02:46:45.730 --> 02:46:47.730 weird idea into 02:46:47.730 --> 02:46:49.730 the actual program 02:46:49.730 --> 02:46:51.730 which trains most children worldwide 02:46:51.730 --> 02:46:53.730 well I ought to have 02:46:53.730 --> 02:46:55.730 there is a story that perhaps 02:46:55.730 --> 02:46:57.730 not everyone here is familiar with 02:46:57.730 --> 02:46:59.730 which is when I was in New York 02:46:59.730 --> 02:47:01.730 a couple of years ago I was asked 02:47:01.730 --> 02:47:03.730 to visit a school in Long Island 02:47:03.730 --> 02:47:05.730 I was particularly 02:47:05.730 --> 02:47:07.730 urged to go there 02:47:07.730 --> 02:47:09.730 a private helicopter was sent to take me 02:47:09.730 --> 02:47:11.730 and I was asked to address the board 02:47:11.730 --> 02:47:13.730 and the teachers 02:47:13.730 --> 02:47:15.730 of the school 02:47:15.730 --> 02:47:17.730 and when I asked them what they would like me to speak about 02:47:17.730 --> 02:47:19.730 they said they wanted 02:47:19.730 --> 02:47:21.730 me to speak about the rectified Sheldrake 02:47:21.730 --> 02:47:23.730 principle on which their entire 02:47:23.730 --> 02:47:25.730 curriculum was based 02:47:25.730 --> 02:47:27.730 so when I said what is the rectified 02:47:27.730 --> 02:47:29.730 Sheldrake principle 02:47:31.730 --> 02:47:33.730 they said that 02:47:33.730 --> 02:47:35.730 that was the very question they were asking 02:47:37.730 --> 02:47:39.730 that I would explain 02:47:39.730 --> 02:47:41.730 I then asked 02:47:41.730 --> 02:47:43.730 who had invented the rectified 02:47:43.730 --> 02:47:45.730 Sheldrake principle on which the curriculum 02:47:45.730 --> 02:47:47.730 was based and they soon revealed 02:47:47.730 --> 02:47:49.730 that the author of this principle 02:47:49.730 --> 02:47:51.730 or at least the author of the documents 02:47:51.730 --> 02:47:53.730 on which their entire curriculum was based 02:47:53.730 --> 02:47:57.870 was Ralph Abraham 02:47:59.870 --> 02:48:01.870 by careful questioning 02:48:01.870 --> 02:48:03.870 I was able to find out 02:48:03.870 --> 02:48:05.870 that the rectified Sheldrake principle 02:48:05.870 --> 02:48:07.870 meant that because of morphic resonance 02:48:07.870 --> 02:48:09.870 and habits of learning 02:48:09.870 --> 02:48:11.870 the sequence of events in which 02:48:11.870 --> 02:48:13.870 people should learn things in school 02:48:13.870 --> 02:48:15.870 should follow the historical process 02:48:15.870 --> 02:48:17.870 so in history you learn first 02:48:17.870 --> 02:48:19.870 about the 02:48:19.870 --> 02:48:21.870 Aryans, Egyptians, etc 02:48:21.870 --> 02:48:23.870 then you move on to the ancient Greeks 02:48:23.870 --> 02:48:25.870 the Romans, the dark ages, etc 02:48:25.870 --> 02:48:27.870 that it follows the principle 02:48:27.870 --> 02:48:29.870 and they start in grade one 02:48:29.870 --> 02:48:31.870 with ancient Egypt 02:48:31.870 --> 02:48:33.870 I calculated 02:48:33.870 --> 02:48:35.870 on this basis that the 02:48:35.870 --> 02:48:37.870 invention of the domestication 02:48:37.870 --> 02:48:39.870 of fire which occurred between 02:48:39.870 --> 02:48:41.870 400 to 700 thousand years ago 02:48:41.870 --> 02:48:43.870 should mean that in 02:48:43.870 --> 02:48:45.870 the toddler play groups 02:48:45.870 --> 02:48:47.870 they should be playing with fire 02:48:47.870 --> 02:48:49.870 and 02:48:49.870 --> 02:48:56.860 I pointed this out 02:48:56.860 --> 02:48:58.860 but it didn't 02:48:58.860 --> 02:49:00.860 that wasn't part of the curriculum 02:49:00.860 --> 02:49:02.860 I was suggesting 02:49:02.860 --> 02:49:04.860 I discovered that there was in fact 02:49:04.860 --> 02:49:06.860 an entire process of educational reform 02:49:06.860 --> 02:49:08.860 afoot in this country 02:49:08.860 --> 02:49:10.860 behind which is the guiding genius 02:49:10.860 --> 02:49:12.860 of Ralph Abraham 02:49:12.860 --> 02:49:14.860 so I think we should ask you 02:49:14.860 --> 02:49:16.860 this question Ralph 02:49:16.860 --> 02:49:18.860 since you've more experience than most of us 02:49:18.860 --> 02:49:20.860 well I'd rather that people with 02:49:20.860 --> 02:49:22.860 less experience speak about it 02:49:22.860 --> 02:49:24.860 because 02:49:24.860 --> 02:49:26.860 my experience has been 02:49:26.860 --> 02:49:28.860 very disappointing 02:49:28.860 --> 02:49:30.860 oh no 02:49:32.860 --> 02:49:37.390 here is the 02:49:37.390 --> 02:49:39.390 problem as I perceive it 02:49:39.390 --> 02:49:41.390 maybe you can help me get through 02:49:41.390 --> 02:49:43.390 this one 02:49:43.390 --> 02:49:45.390 the children are 02:49:45.390 --> 02:49:47.390 innocent and trusting and will try 02:49:47.390 --> 02:49:49.390 any curricular reform experiment 02:49:49.390 --> 02:49:51.390 they'll try anything 02:49:51.390 --> 02:49:53.390 which they have done in different schools around the world 02:49:53.390 --> 02:49:55.390 with great effect 02:49:55.390 --> 02:49:57.390 it was only a couple days ago 02:49:57.390 --> 02:49:59.390 I was at the 02:49:59.390 --> 02:50:01.390 the Intel 02:50:01.390 --> 02:50:03.390 farm they call it 02:50:03.390 --> 02:50:05.390 in Oregon where 10,000 people 02:50:05.390 --> 02:50:07.390 work on realizing Terence's 02:50:07.390 --> 02:50:09.390 dream and 02:50:11.390 --> 02:50:13.390 making psychedelic drugs 02:50:13.390 --> 02:50:15.390 available to everyone 02:50:17.390 --> 02:50:19.390 oh a different dream 02:50:21.390 --> 02:50:23.390 they know what I mean 02:50:23.390 --> 02:50:25.390 chips not hits 02:50:27.390 --> 02:50:29.390 casually over lunch 02:50:29.390 --> 02:50:31.390 I revealed my 02:50:31.390 --> 02:50:33.390 revolutionary program for the schools 02:50:33.390 --> 02:50:35.390 to a software engineer 02:50:35.390 --> 02:50:37.390 who was sitting there and he said oh well 02:50:37.390 --> 02:50:39.390 this historical 02:50:39.390 --> 02:50:41.390 curriculum he said I'm an Armenian 02:50:41.390 --> 02:50:43.390 and Armenian I went 02:50:43.390 --> 02:50:45.390 Algeria he said I'm from Algeria 02:50:45.390 --> 02:50:47.390 and my school was 02:50:47.390 --> 02:50:49.390 exactly what you it was wonderful 02:50:49.390 --> 02:50:51.390 so there are places in the world 02:50:51.390 --> 02:50:53.390 where even my experiment has been 02:50:53.390 --> 02:50:55.390 tried 02:50:55.390 --> 02:50:57.390 the problem is this 02:50:57.390 --> 02:50:59.390 the children okay the owners of the school 02:50:59.390 --> 02:51:01.390 the people everything is fine 02:51:01.390 --> 02:51:03.390 the problem is 02:51:03.390 --> 02:51:05.390 with the teachers and parents 02:51:05.390 --> 02:51:07.390 the teachers have been trained 02:51:07.390 --> 02:51:09.390 that's one problem 02:51:09.390 --> 02:51:11.390 and 02:51:11.390 --> 02:51:13.390 and the parents 02:51:13.390 --> 02:51:15.390 have been frightened I guess 02:51:15.390 --> 02:51:17.390 so the parents 02:51:17.390 --> 02:51:19.390 absolutely refuse any experiments 02:51:19.390 --> 02:51:21.390 that would affect their children because 02:51:21.390 --> 02:51:23.390 the danger of a failure you see that they 02:51:23.390 --> 02:51:25.390 they consider the 02:51:25.390 --> 02:51:27.390 current system which is guaranteed to fail 02:51:27.390 --> 02:51:29.390 is somehow safer than an 02:51:29.390 --> 02:51:31.390 experimental system that might fail 02:51:31.390 --> 02:51:33.390 the insecurity itself is a source of anxiety 02:51:33.390 --> 02:51:35.390 well 02:51:35.390 --> 02:51:37.390 I'm just analyzing I don't 02:51:37.390 --> 02:51:39.390 really know what goes through their mind but 02:51:39.390 --> 02:51:41.390 what I have discovered is that 02:51:41.390 --> 02:51:43.390 groups of parents come in and physically 02:51:43.390 --> 02:51:45.390 attack the 02:51:45.390 --> 02:51:47.390 teachers the administrators and so on 02:51:47.390 --> 02:51:49.390 to guarantee that 02:51:49.390 --> 02:51:51.390 the time worn 02:51:51.390 --> 02:51:53.390 failure 02:51:53.390 --> 02:51:55.390 proved system 02:51:55.390 --> 02:51:57.390 is performed as 02:51:57.390 --> 02:51:59.390 it always has been 02:51:59.390 --> 02:52:01.390 you see the problem 02:52:01.390 --> 02:52:03.390 older people 02:52:03.390 --> 02:52:05.390 that's why Terence has 02:52:05.390 --> 02:52:07.390 recommended mushrooms 02:52:07.390 --> 02:52:09.390 that's why 02:52:09.390 --> 02:52:11.390 Rupert has suggested psychic pets 02:52:11.390 --> 02:52:13.390 you see how revolutionary is psychic pets 02:52:13.390 --> 02:52:15.390 we're talking about the parents here 02:52:15.390 --> 02:52:17.390 after they it's proved to them 02:52:17.390 --> 02:52:19.390 that what they already know 02:52:19.390 --> 02:52:21.390 is true by somebody in the authority 02:52:21.390 --> 02:52:23.390 of the scientific establishment 02:52:23.390 --> 02:52:25.390 then their truth will become true for them 02:52:25.390 --> 02:52:27.390 for the first time due to the fact that 02:52:27.390 --> 02:52:29.390 they trust authority more than they trust 02:52:29.390 --> 02:52:31.390 their own experience 02:52:31.390 --> 02:52:37.810 so I 02:52:37.810 --> 02:52:39.810 haven't given up 02:52:39.810 --> 02:52:41.810 yet 02:52:41.810 --> 02:52:43.810 with the educational system 02:52:43.810 --> 02:52:45.810 but I'm still seeking 02:52:45.810 --> 02:52:47.810 some little way around 02:52:47.810 --> 02:52:49.810 this 02:52:49.810 --> 02:52:51.810 very deeply 02:52:51.810 --> 02:52:53.810 ingrained habit 02:52:53.810 --> 02:52:55.810 and part of 02:52:55.810 --> 02:52:57.810 the problem is as the stakes 02:52:57.810 --> 02:52:59.810 rise the clenching 02:52:59.810 --> 02:53:01.810 on the part of the 02:53:01.810 --> 02:53:03.810 bariatric establishment 02:53:03.810 --> 02:53:05.810 becomes even more 02:53:05.810 --> 02:53:07.810 intensified so for example 02:53:07.810 --> 02:53:09.810 right now 02:53:09.810 --> 02:53:11.810 the worldwide 02:53:11.810 --> 02:53:13.810 epidemic of youth 02:53:13.810 --> 02:53:15.810 bashing is the most 02:53:15.810 --> 02:53:17.810 counterproductive thing 02:53:17.810 --> 02:53:19.810 we could possibly generate 02:53:19.810 --> 02:53:21.810 I mean we're leaning on 02:53:21.810 --> 02:53:23.810 the very people 02:53:23.810 --> 02:53:25.810 who are going to have to save 02:53:25.810 --> 02:53:27.810 the situation 02:53:27.810 --> 02:53:29.810 why not admit the 02:53:29.810 --> 02:53:31.810 obsolescence and bankruptcy 02:53:31.810 --> 02:53:33.810 of the old models 02:53:33.810 --> 02:53:35.810 and take our foot off 02:53:35.810 --> 02:53:37.810 the neck of youth 02:53:37.810 --> 02:53:39.810 and honor 02:53:39.810 --> 02:53:41.810 an interest in 02:53:41.810 --> 02:53:43.810 psychedelic experimentalism 02:53:43.810 --> 02:53:45.810 sexual redefining 02:53:45.810 --> 02:53:47.810 of roles a new look 02:53:47.810 --> 02:53:49.810 at how we relate to work 02:53:49.810 --> 02:53:51.810 a new look at how we 02:53:51.810 --> 02:53:53.810 relate to community instead of 02:53:53.810 --> 02:53:55.810 marginalizing youth culture 02:53:55.810 --> 02:53:57.810 and defining it as a phase 02:53:57.810 --> 02:53:59.810 misguided naive foolish 02:53:59.810 --> 02:54:01.810 we should say these are 02:54:01.810 --> 02:54:03.810 the uncorrupted people 02:54:03.810 --> 02:54:05.810 in society who have not yet 02:54:05.810 --> 02:54:07.810 felt the hammer 02:54:07.810 --> 02:54:09.810 of the programming 02:54:09.810 --> 02:54:11.810 and the guilt and the 02:54:11.810 --> 02:54:13.810 creodes of economic 02:54:13.810 --> 02:54:15.810 necessity and try to build 02:54:15.810 --> 02:54:17.810 upward and outward 02:54:17.810 --> 02:54:19.810 from youth culture rather than 02:54:19.810 --> 02:54:21.810 suppressing it 02:54:21.810 --> 02:54:23.810 for this reason I will be appearing 02:54:23.810 --> 02:54:25.810 at a rave tonight that starts 02:54:25.810 --> 02:54:27.810 after my bedtime 02:54:31.810 --> 02:54:35.810 I wish I could 02:54:35.810 --> 02:54:37.810 be persuaded 02:54:37.810 --> 02:54:39.810 by your persuasive rhetoric 02:54:39.810 --> 02:54:41.810 my experience 02:54:41.810 --> 02:54:43.810 of youth culture is here are 02:54:43.810 --> 02:54:45.810 people who from the age of two 02:54:45.810 --> 02:54:47.810 have been watching hours a day of television 02:54:47.810 --> 02:54:49.810 shaped by commercials 02:54:49.810 --> 02:54:51.810 cunningly designed to 02:54:51.810 --> 02:54:53.810 introduce toddlers to the 02:54:53.810 --> 02:54:55.810 consumer society whose 02:54:55.810 --> 02:54:57.810 music is dominated by a music 02:54:57.810 --> 02:54:59.810 industry run by cynical 02:54:59.810 --> 02:55:01.810 interests manipulative people 02:55:01.810 --> 02:55:03.810 public relations operations and 02:55:03.810 --> 02:55:05.810 large corporations so 02:55:05.810 --> 02:55:07.810 to see this as uncontaminated 02:55:07.810 --> 02:55:09.810 pure the spirit of tomorrow 02:55:09.810 --> 02:55:11.810 untarnished by the 02:55:11.810 --> 02:55:13.810 vices of today seems 02:55:13.810 --> 02:55:15.810 to me to beg a number of questions 02:55:15.810 --> 02:55:17.810 however 02:55:17.810 --> 02:55:19.810 I'll be there at the rave tonight 02:55:19.810 --> 02:55:21.810 too Terence and there I'll be able to 02:55:21.810 --> 02:55:23.810 see this paradise that's 02:55:23.810 --> 02:55:25.810 unfolding before us 02:55:27.810 --> 02:55:29.810 your point about television is 02:55:29.810 --> 02:55:31.810 well taken I totally agree I think 02:55:31.810 --> 02:55:33.810 it's the most pernicious programming 02:55:33.810 --> 02:55:35.810 and propaganda device 02:55:35.810 --> 02:55:37.810 around it's about to be 02:55:37.810 --> 02:55:39.810 strangled by the world wide web 02:55:39.810 --> 02:55:41.810 well and you know you can just 02:55:41.810 --> 02:55:43.810 turn off your TV and I don't 02:55:43.810 --> 02:55:45.810 I say that as someone who did I 02:55:45.810 --> 02:55:47.810 raised my children without television 02:55:47.810 --> 02:55:49.810 because rather than just giving 02:55:49.810 --> 02:55:51.810 lip service to the idea that it's 02:55:51.810 --> 02:55:53.810 stupid we actually acted on 02:55:53.810 --> 02:55:55.810 the perception that it's stupid yes and we do too 02:55:55.810 --> 02:55:57.810 but your other point 02:55:57.810 --> 02:55:59.810 about the youth culture's 02:55:59.810 --> 02:56:01.810 music being in the hands of the 02:56:01.810 --> 02:56:03.810 capitalists and record companies 02:56:03.810 --> 02:56:05.810 is slightly out of touch 02:56:05.810 --> 02:56:07.810 with what's actually happening 02:56:07.810 --> 02:56:09.810 for five hundred dollars you can buy 02:56:09.810 --> 02:56:11.810 a CDR burner 02:56:11.810 --> 02:56:13.810 bands do this and 02:56:13.810 --> 02:56:15.810 most youth culture music 02:56:15.810 --> 02:56:17.810 is now put out in editions 02:56:17.810 --> 02:56:19.810 of under a thousand pressings 02:56:19.810 --> 02:56:21.810 and really the corporate 02:56:21.810 --> 02:56:23.810 middle men have all been 02:56:23.810 --> 02:56:25.810 gone around and the big 02:56:25.810 --> 02:56:27.810 record corporations are not at 02:56:27.810 --> 02:56:29.810 all in touch with real 02:56:29.810 --> 02:56:31.810 tastes and real creativity 02:56:31.810 --> 02:56:33.810 in the music business they recycle 02:56:33.810 --> 02:56:35.810 garbage that they support 02:56:35.810 --> 02:56:37.810 with massive public relations 02:56:37.810 --> 02:56:39.810 programs at the same time 02:56:39.810 --> 02:56:41.810 that real creativity 02:56:41.810 --> 02:56:43.810 is alive and well 02:56:43.810 --> 02:56:45.810 and thriving on a fractalized 02:56:45.810 --> 02:56:47.810 micro scale that 02:56:47.810 --> 02:56:49.810 goes right around the desires 02:56:49.810 --> 02:56:51.810 of mass consumerism 02:56:58.580 --> 02:57:00.580 sorry to interrupt 02:57:02.580 --> 02:57:04.580 I don't I just it would be good 02:57:04.580 --> 02:57:06.580 if there could be an experiment carried out 02:57:06.580 --> 02:57:08.580 perhaps with you as the 02:57:08.580 --> 02:57:10.580 cheerleader for this 02:57:10.580 --> 02:57:12.580 youth culture of tomorrow 02:57:12.580 --> 02:57:14.580 actually to be able to be 02:57:14.580 --> 02:57:16.580 permitted rather than suppressed and so on 02:57:16.580 --> 02:57:18.580 to see what happens in my 02:57:18.580 --> 02:57:20.580 I mean there are quite a number of experiments 02:57:20.580 --> 02:57:22.580 in this I would have thought going on spontaneously 02:57:22.580 --> 02:57:24.580 it's not as if all these 02:57:24.580 --> 02:57:26.580 people involved in this culture are 02:57:26.580 --> 02:57:28.580 totally controlled by parents teachers 02:57:28.580 --> 02:57:30.580 etc many of them are not under 02:57:30.580 --> 02:57:32.580 direct control in this way at all 02:57:32.580 --> 02:57:34.580 so 02:57:34.580 --> 02:57:36.580 but you've still 02:57:36.580 --> 02:57:38.580 going to have to have educational systems 02:57:38.580 --> 02:57:40.580 school systems 02:57:40.580 --> 02:57:42.580 of one kind or another 02:57:42.580 --> 02:57:44.580 and it's not clear to me that 02:57:44.580 --> 02:57:46.580 you know more raves and psychedelics 02:57:46.580 --> 02:57:48.580 are going automatically to generate that 02:57:48.580 --> 02:57:50.580 well I would offer 02:57:50.580 --> 02:57:52.580 as an example I think the place 02:57:52.580 --> 02:57:54.580 on the planet where youth culture 02:57:54.580 --> 02:57:56.580 is most in control of the 02:57:56.580 --> 02:57:58.580 social agenda in other 02:57:58.580 --> 02:58:00.580 words where youths preference 02:58:00.580 --> 02:58:02.580 for psychedelic drugs is honored 02:58:02.580 --> 02:58:04.580 where youths music is honored 02:58:04.580 --> 02:58:06.580 where microeconomics 02:58:06.580 --> 02:58:08.580 systems built by youth are honored 02:58:08.580 --> 02:58:10.580 is 02:58:10.580 --> 02:58:12.580 the Netherlands Holland 02:58:12.580 --> 02:58:14.580 lowest AIDS infection rate 02:58:14.580 --> 02:58:16.580 in Europe lowest 02:58:16.580 --> 02:58:18.580 heroin addiction rate 02:58:18.580 --> 02:58:20.580 in Europe heroin is legal 02:58:20.580 --> 02:58:22.580 prostitution is 02:58:22.580 --> 02:58:24.580 legal there are actually 02:58:24.580 --> 02:58:26.580 very large scale social experiments 02:58:26.580 --> 02:58:28.580 going on that embody 02:58:28.580 --> 02:58:30.580 the values of youth culture 02:58:30.580 --> 02:58:32.580 and they're producing saner 02:58:32.580 --> 02:58:34.580 less stressful more life 02:58:34.580 --> 02:58:36.580 affirming in human society 02:58:36.580 --> 02:58:38.580 than anything going on 02:58:38.580 --> 02:58:40.580 inside the high tech industrial 02:58:40.580 --> 02:58:42.580 democracies that are the 02:58:42.580 --> 02:58:44.580 that set the global agenda 02:58:44.580 --> 02:58:46.580 I think 02:58:46.580 --> 02:58:48.580 well I often visit Holland 02:58:48.580 --> 02:58:50.580 and I must say I haven't quite noticed 02:58:50.580 --> 02:58:52.580 such a striking difference between 02:58:52.580 --> 02:58:54.580 them and the rest of Western Europe 02:58:54.580 --> 02:58:56.580 well but that's really because you come 02:58:56.580 --> 02:58:58.580 from London where also 02:58:58.580 --> 02:59:00.580 these things are happening 02:59:00.580 --> 02:59:02.580 but if you lived in Berlin 02:59:02.580 --> 02:59:04.580 or Rio de Janeiro 02:59:04.580 --> 02:59:06.580 or Houston I think 02:59:06.580 --> 02:59:08.580 the contrast with the Netherlands 02:59:08.580 --> 02:59:10.580 is quite astonishing 02:59:10.580 --> 02:59:15.710 didn't mean to stop 02:59:15.710 --> 02:59:17.710 the show folks 02:59:19.710 --> 02:59:21.710 Ralph you're not saying enough 02:59:21.710 --> 02:59:23.710 oh 02:59:23.710 --> 02:59:25.710 am I guilty then 02:59:25.710 --> 02:59:27.710 of too much self indulgence 02:59:27.710 --> 02:59:29.710 no you posed 02:59:29.710 --> 02:59:31.710 important problems 02:59:31.710 --> 02:59:33.710 you've shown how on the edge 02:59:33.710 --> 02:59:35.710 of the millennium 02:59:35.710 --> 02:59:37.710 great steps or small steps are needed 02:59:37.710 --> 02:59:39.710 that magnify through butterfly 02:59:39.710 --> 02:59:41.710 you've asked me and Terence 02:59:41.710 --> 02:59:43.710 what you think they should be 02:59:43.710 --> 02:59:45.710 you've told us you're disappointed 02:59:45.710 --> 02:59:47.710 by your own experiments 02:59:47.710 --> 02:59:49.710 with the reform of the educational system 02:59:49.710 --> 02:59:51.710 so what next 02:59:55.710 --> 02:59:57.710 well as I say 02:59:57.710 --> 02:59:59.710 I think that we're at 02:59:59.710 --> 03:00:01.710 the edge of a millennium 03:00:01.710 --> 03:00:03.710 we're at a turning point 03:00:03.710 --> 03:00:05.710 what may be coming down the pike 03:00:05.710 --> 03:00:07.710 could be two or three 03:00:07.710 --> 03:00:09.710 miracles that will 03:00:09.710 --> 03:00:11.710 decidedly change the definition 03:00:11.710 --> 03:00:13.710 of the problem and in the 03:00:13.710 --> 03:00:15.710 meanwhile I think that we're 03:00:15.710 --> 03:00:17.710 more or less stuck in the situation 03:00:17.710 --> 03:00:19.710 where we keep trying what we're doing 03:00:19.710 --> 03:00:21.710 and believing 03:00:21.710 --> 03:00:23.710 that it has at least some chance 03:00:23.710 --> 03:00:25.710 of having an effect 03:00:25.710 --> 03:00:27.710 I think that 03:00:27.710 --> 03:00:29.710 the 03:00:29.710 --> 03:00:31.710 the educational 03:00:31.710 --> 03:00:33.710 system might change 03:00:33.710 --> 03:00:35.710 itself by a miracle for example 03:00:35.710 --> 03:00:37.710 and it could do that 03:00:37.710 --> 03:00:39.710 in a way that had nothing 03:00:39.710 --> 03:00:41.710 to do with any of our efforts 03:00:41.710 --> 03:00:43.710 or in fact it may be that some little 03:00:43.710 --> 03:00:45.710 thing that we did mattered 03:00:45.710 --> 03:00:47.710 I think that your 03:00:47.710 --> 03:00:49.710 work in the revolution of science 03:00:49.710 --> 03:00:51.710 is very important and very 03:00:51.710 --> 03:00:53.710 promising and it's 03:00:53.710 --> 03:00:55.710 proceeded with 03:00:55.710 --> 03:00:57.710 essentially without funding 03:00:57.710 --> 03:00:59.710 because the genius of 03:00:59.710 --> 03:01:01.710 the program that you've evolved 03:01:01.710 --> 03:01:03.710 is that it has 03:01:03.710 --> 03:01:05.710 this enormous leverage 03:01:05.710 --> 03:01:07.710 and at every crossing 03:01:07.710 --> 03:01:09.710 of the road you've 03:01:09.710 --> 03:01:11.710 made the right choice to get more 03:01:11.710 --> 03:01:13.710 leverage 03:01:13.710 --> 03:01:15.710 and 03:01:15.710 --> 03:01:17.710 Terrence I think that your 03:01:17.710 --> 03:01:19.710 program also is 03:01:19.710 --> 03:01:21.710 a good one in that it's over the years 03:01:21.710 --> 03:01:23.710 changed in the direction of younger 03:01:23.710 --> 03:01:25.710 people and that you've been 03:01:25.710 --> 03:01:27.710 you know changed 03:01:27.710 --> 03:01:29.710 your approach to 03:01:29.710 --> 03:01:31.710 maximize and 03:01:31.710 --> 03:01:33.710 I don't see 03:01:33.710 --> 03:01:35.710 in either case that there's an enormous 03:01:35.710 --> 03:01:37.710 backlash working against you 03:01:37.710 --> 03:01:39.710 that 03:01:39.710 --> 03:01:41.710 other revolutionary movements 03:01:41.710 --> 03:01:43.710 have been stopped by a backlash 03:01:43.710 --> 03:01:45.710 and although you don't have funding 03:01:45.710 --> 03:01:47.710 you don't have groups 03:01:47.710 --> 03:01:49.710 calling you up and threatening 03:01:49.710 --> 03:01:51.710 your life and so on 03:01:51.710 --> 03:01:53.710 in my own case 03:01:53.710 --> 03:01:55.710 I have felt 03:01:55.710 --> 03:01:57.710 I've written about this 03:01:57.710 --> 03:01:59.710 endlessly besides writing mathematics 03:01:59.710 --> 03:02:01.710 I write that mathematics is 03:02:01.710 --> 03:02:03.710 important and 03:02:03.710 --> 03:02:05.710 through the microscopic 03:02:05.710 --> 03:02:07.710 analysis of the hinges 03:02:07.710 --> 03:02:09.710 of history the edges of millennia 03:02:09.710 --> 03:02:11.710 past I have 03:02:11.710 --> 03:02:13.710 pointed out 03:02:13.710 --> 03:02:15.710 exactly where in each 03:02:15.710 --> 03:02:17.710 case mathematics had 03:02:17.710 --> 03:02:19.710 a key role in 03:02:19.710 --> 03:02:21.710 the miracle and the bifurcation that 03:02:21.710 --> 03:02:23.710 happened I think that 03:02:23.710 --> 03:02:25.710 society that rejects mathematics 03:02:25.710 --> 03:02:27.710 cannot actually successfully 03:02:27.710 --> 03:02:29.710 deal with these problems 03:02:29.710 --> 03:02:31.710 and therefore I have 03:02:31.710 --> 03:02:33.710 activated myself 03:02:33.710 --> 03:02:35.710 against the problem 03:02:35.710 --> 03:02:37.710 especially prevalent in the United States 03:02:37.710 --> 03:02:39.710 and concomitant with other problems 03:02:39.710 --> 03:02:41.710 that are especially prevalent 03:02:41.710 --> 03:02:43.710 in the United States the problem of 03:02:43.710 --> 03:02:45.710 math anxiety 03:02:45.710 --> 03:02:48.960 avoidance and 03:02:48.960 --> 03:02:50.960 misunderstanding 03:02:50.960 --> 03:02:52.960 and here I would say 03:02:52.960 --> 03:02:54.960 that there is a huge 03:02:54.960 --> 03:02:56.960 institution 03:02:56.960 --> 03:02:58.960 more or less equivalent 03:02:58.960 --> 03:03:00.960 to the scientific community 03:03:00.960 --> 03:03:02.960 that's arrayed against 03:03:02.960 --> 03:03:04.960 this information 03:03:04.960 --> 03:03:06.960 that somehow the 03:03:06.960 --> 03:03:08.960 educational system has been 03:03:08.960 --> 03:03:10.960 particularly persistent 03:03:10.960 --> 03:03:12.960 in the destruction of mathematics 03:03:12.960 --> 03:03:14.960 in the destruction of mathematical 03:03:14.960 --> 03:03:16.960 capability of youth 03:03:16.960 --> 03:03:18.960 and therefore in disempowerment 03:03:18.960 --> 03:03:20.960 of the society with its critical 03:03:20.960 --> 03:03:22.960 faculty to change I do not 03:03:22.960 --> 03:03:24.960 believe you can have any clarity of 03:03:24.960 --> 03:03:26.960 view in the progress of history 03:03:26.960 --> 03:03:28.960 with no mathematical training 03:03:28.960 --> 03:03:30.960 on the part of any of the participants 03:03:30.960 --> 03:03:32.960 I have seen in this society 03:03:32.960 --> 03:03:34.960 that even Nobel Prize winners 03:03:34.960 --> 03:03:36.960 in physics have math anxiety 03:03:36.960 --> 03:03:38.960 to a very severe degree 03:03:38.960 --> 03:03:40.960 I'm able to detect this 03:03:40.960 --> 03:03:42.960 because it's something that 03:03:42.960 --> 03:03:44.960 is amplified 03:03:44.960 --> 03:03:46.960 it's behavior that emerges 03:03:46.960 --> 03:03:48.960 as soon as I walk into a room 03:03:52.960 --> 03:03:54.960 I guess I feel 03:03:54.960 --> 03:03:56.960 in some that my own 03:03:56.960 --> 03:03:58.960 efforts have been rather 03:03:58.960 --> 03:04:00.960 less successful or maybe I haven't 03:04:00.960 --> 03:04:02.960 been as clever in turning 03:04:02.960 --> 03:04:04.960 to the left or right at the 03:04:04.960 --> 03:04:06.960 crossings of the road 03:04:08.960 --> 03:04:10.960 the problem is 03:04:10.960 --> 03:04:12.960 it's already much less severe 03:04:12.960 --> 03:04:14.960 in other countries so it seems 03:04:14.960 --> 03:04:16.960 like we needn't worry too much 03:04:16.960 --> 03:04:18.960 in Europe throughout Europe 03:04:18.960 --> 03:04:20.960 for example the problem of 03:04:20.960 --> 03:04:22.960 the destruction of mathematical 03:04:22.960 --> 03:04:24.960 capability is far less severe 03:04:24.960 --> 03:04:26.960 the only thing really disturbing 03:04:26.960 --> 03:04:28.960 there is that it's growing at 03:04:28.960 --> 03:04:30.960 an alarming rate that it's becoming 03:04:30.960 --> 03:04:32.960 they're inheriting the disease 03:04:32.960 --> 03:04:34.960 from the United States 03:04:34.960 --> 03:04:36.960 a spreading disease based on 03:04:36.960 --> 03:04:38.960 standardized examinations like 03:04:38.960 --> 03:04:40.960 the SAT and equivalent movements 03:04:40.960 --> 03:04:42.960 so there you have it 03:04:42.960 --> 03:04:44.960 a problem that's so bad 03:04:44.960 --> 03:04:46.960 that the very mention of the word 03:04:46.960 --> 03:04:48.960 mathematics produces 03:04:48.960 --> 03:04:50.960 aversion 03:04:50.960 --> 03:04:52.960 reaction 03:04:52.960 --> 03:04:54.960 that is paralyzing 03:04:54.960 --> 03:04:56.960 so that much as I hate to 03:04:56.960 --> 03:04:58.960 and you've seen this today 03:04:58.960 --> 03:05:00.960 that I can go through an entire 03:05:00.960 --> 03:05:02.960 day without mentioning mathematics 03:05:02.960 --> 03:05:04.960 with mentioning mathematics 03:05:04.960 --> 03:05:06.960 but not the word mathematics 03:05:06.960 --> 03:05:08.960 in the hopes of tricking people 03:05:08.960 --> 03:05:10.960 into recognizing that some ideas like this 03:05:10.960 --> 03:05:12.960 with perception of space-time 03:05:12.960 --> 03:05:14.960 patterns in the abstract 03:05:14.960 --> 03:05:16.960 that these skills 03:05:16.960 --> 03:05:18.960 are useful 03:05:18.960 --> 03:05:20.960 Can I add to that 03:05:20.960 --> 03:05:22.960 I mean I don't think what 03:05:22.960 --> 03:05:24.960 Ralph means is that it's a 03:05:24.960 --> 03:05:26.960 tragedy that most people can't 03:05:26.960 --> 03:05:28.960 factor a quadratic equation 03:05:28.960 --> 03:05:30.960 I think 03:05:30.960 --> 03:05:32.960 he speaks as he does because 03:05:32.960 --> 03:05:34.960 he is so professionally immersed 03:05:34.960 --> 03:05:36.960 in these issues 03:05:36.960 --> 03:05:38.960 as someone somewhat more 03:05:38.960 --> 03:05:40.960 distant from all of this but in 03:05:40.960 --> 03:05:42.960 agreement from Ralph 03:05:42.960 --> 03:05:44.960 the failure to teach 03:05:44.960 --> 03:05:46.960 mathematics 03:05:46.960 --> 03:05:48.960 in practical social and political 03:05:48.960 --> 03:05:50.960 terms boils down 03:05:50.960 --> 03:05:52.960 to a failure to 03:05:52.960 --> 03:05:54.960 teach logic 03:05:54.960 --> 03:05:56.960 and discriminating 03:05:56.960 --> 03:05:58.960 understanding 03:05:58.960 --> 03:06:00.960 the great evil 03:06:00.960 --> 03:06:02.960 in my humble opinion 03:06:02.960 --> 03:06:04.960 which haunts our enterprise 03:06:04.960 --> 03:06:06.960 and I say this 03:06:06.960 --> 03:06:08.960 realizing I'm setting the fox 03:06:08.960 --> 03:06:10.960 among the chickens 03:06:10.960 --> 03:06:12.960 the great evil 03:06:12.960 --> 03:06:14.960 that has been allowed to flourish 03:06:14.960 --> 03:06:16.960 in the absence of mathematical 03:06:16.960 --> 03:06:18.960 understanding is 03:06:18.960 --> 03:06:20.960 relativism 03:06:20.960 --> 03:06:22.960 and what is relativism 03:06:22.960 --> 03:06:24.960 it's the idea that there is 03:06:24.960 --> 03:06:26.960 no distinction between 03:06:26.960 --> 03:06:28.960 shift and shinola 03:06:28.960 --> 03:06:30.960 all ideas 03:06:30.960 --> 03:06:32.960 are somehow operating 03:06:32.960 --> 03:06:34.960 on equal footing 03:06:34.960 --> 03:06:36.960 so one person 03:06:36.960 --> 03:06:38.960 is a chaos theorist 03:06:38.960 --> 03:06:40.960 another is 03:06:40.960 --> 03:06:42.960 a follower of the revelations 03:06:42.960 --> 03:06:44.960 of this or that 03:06:44.960 --> 03:06:46.960 new age guru 03:06:46.960 --> 03:06:48.960 someone else is channeling information 03:06:48.960 --> 03:06:50.960 from the Pleiades 03:06:50.960 --> 03:06:52.960 and we have been taught 03:06:52.960 --> 03:06:54.960 that political correctness 03:06:54.960 --> 03:06:56.960 demands that we treat all these 03:06:56.960 --> 03:06:58.960 things with equal weight 03:06:58.960 --> 03:07:00.960 because we have no 03:07:00.960 --> 03:07:02.960 mathematical ability 03:07:02.960 --> 03:07:04.960 no logical ability 03:07:04.960 --> 03:07:06.960 we don't know how to ask the questions 03:07:06.960 --> 03:07:08.960 that expose some positions 03:07:08.960 --> 03:07:10.960 as preposterous 03:07:10.960 --> 03:07:12.960 trivial 03:07:12.960 --> 03:07:14.960 insulting to the intelligence 03:07:14.960 --> 03:07:16.960 and unworthy of repetition 03:07:16.960 --> 03:07:18.960 so we all 03:07:18.960 --> 03:07:20.960 are very comfortable bashing 03:07:20.960 --> 03:07:22.960 science and flailing away 03:07:22.960 --> 03:07:24.960 at that 03:07:24.960 --> 03:07:26.960 but that isn't our enemy 03:07:26.960 --> 03:07:28.960 science is capable of undertaking 03:07:28.960 --> 03:07:30.960 its own reformation and critique 03:07:30.960 --> 03:07:32.960 and has been engaged in that 03:07:32.960 --> 03:07:34.960 fairly vigorously 03:07:34.960 --> 03:07:36.960 for some time 03:07:36.960 --> 03:07:38.960 the enemy that will really subvert 03:07:38.960 --> 03:07:40.960 the enterprise of building 03:07:40.960 --> 03:07:42.960 a world based on clarity 03:07:42.960 --> 03:07:44.960 is the belief that we 03:07:44.960 --> 03:07:46.960 cannot point out 03:07:46.960 --> 03:07:48.960 the pernicious forms of idiocy 03:07:48.960 --> 03:07:50.960 that flourish in our 03:07:50.960 --> 03:07:52.960 own community 03:07:52.960 --> 03:07:54.960 and this problem is going 03:07:54.960 --> 03:07:56.960 growing worse all the time 03:07:56.960 --> 03:07:58.960 I mean just pick up a copy of 03:07:58.960 --> 03:08:00.960 Magical Blend or Shaman's Drum 03:08:00.960 --> 03:08:02.960 and you will discover 03:08:02.960 --> 03:08:04.960 an appeal to the level 03:08:04.960 --> 03:08:06.960 of intellect that makes 03:08:06.960 --> 03:08:08.960 what's going on with television 03:08:08.960 --> 03:08:10.960 advertising look like a meeting 03:08:10.960 --> 03:08:12.960 of the Princeton Institute of 03:08:12.960 --> 03:08:14.960 Advanced Study 03:08:14.960 --> 03:08:16.960 we have tolerated 03:08:16.960 --> 03:08:18.960 too many loose 03:08:18.960 --> 03:08:20.960 heads in our 03:08:20.960 --> 03:08:22.960 community 03:08:22.960 --> 03:08:24.960 we are not willing to 03:08:24.960 --> 03:08:26.960 take on the karma 03:08:26.960 --> 03:08:28.960 involved in 03:08:28.960 --> 03:08:30.960 argument and discourse 03:08:30.960 --> 03:08:32.960 that actually gores 03:08:32.960 --> 03:08:34.960 somebody's ox 03:08:34.960 --> 03:08:36.960 so that at the end of the day 03:08:36.960 --> 03:08:38.960 iridology or 03:08:38.960 --> 03:08:40.960 Mormonism or some 03:08:40.960 --> 03:08:42.960 other form of institutionally 03:08:42.960 --> 03:08:44.960 supported foolishness 03:08:44.960 --> 03:08:46.960 lies in shreds on the floor 03:08:46.960 --> 03:08:48.960 we consider this politically 03:08:48.960 --> 03:08:50.960 incorrect I can feel the 03:08:50.960 --> 03:08:52.960 tension in this room because 03:08:52.960 --> 03:08:54.960 people sense I might gore 03:08:54.960 --> 03:08:56.960 their particular ox 03:08:56.960 --> 03:08:58.960 if 03:08:58.960 --> 03:09:00.960 we had learned 03:09:00.960 --> 03:09:02.960 mathematical logic 03:09:02.960 --> 03:09:04.960 or reason 03:09:04.960 --> 03:09:06.960 or rules of evidence 03:09:06.960 --> 03:09:08.960 when someone approaches us 03:09:08.960 --> 03:09:10.960 excited to inform 03:09:10.960 --> 03:09:12.960 us that the ruins of 03:09:12.960 --> 03:09:14.960 Lemuria have been spotted 03:09:14.960 --> 03:09:16.960 in the deep sea off Big Sur 03:09:16.960 --> 03:09:18.960 or something like that 03:09:18.960 --> 03:09:20.960 we would be able to respond 03:09:20.960 --> 03:09:22.960 to that with the contempt 03:09:22.960 --> 03:09:24.960 it deserves 03:09:24.960 --> 03:09:26.960 I had a conversation about this 03:09:26.960 --> 03:09:28.960 recently with someone who 03:09:28.960 --> 03:09:30.960 if I had to describe their job 03:09:30.960 --> 03:09:32.960 category I would describe them 03:09:32.960 --> 03:09:34.960 as mafiosa 03:09:34.960 --> 03:09:36.960 and I said 03:09:36.960 --> 03:09:38.960 what do you think of 03:09:38.960 --> 03:09:40.960 the abduction phenomenon 03:09:40.960 --> 03:09:42.960 and without hesitation 03:09:42.960 --> 03:09:44.960 this person said 03:09:44.960 --> 03:09:46.960 there are just so many foolish 03:09:46.960 --> 03:09:48.960 people in the world 03:09:48.960 --> 03:09:50.960 and to me 03:09:50.960 --> 03:09:52.960 all of these things are intelligence 03:09:52.960 --> 03:09:54.960 tests and the people who 03:09:54.960 --> 03:09:56.960 pass the intelligence test 03:09:56.960 --> 03:09:58.960 are not worrying about 03:09:58.960 --> 03:10:00.960 pro bono proctologists 03:10:00.960 --> 03:10:02.960 from other star systems 03:10:02.960 --> 03:10:04.960 shining 03:10:04.960 --> 03:10:06.960 unannounced 03:10:06.960 --> 03:10:08.960 in their bedrooms 03:10:08.960 --> 03:10:10.960 so you know 03:10:10.960 --> 03:10:12.960 we have perfected 03:10:12.960 --> 03:10:14.960 politeness 03:10:14.960 --> 03:10:16.960 we have perfected 03:10:16.960 --> 03:10:18.960 the ability to listen 03:10:18.960 --> 03:10:20.960 to damn foolishness 03:10:20.960 --> 03:10:22.960 without betraying by so much 03:10:22.960 --> 03:10:24.960 as the flick of an eyebrow 03:10:24.960 --> 03:10:26.960 that we realize what we're 03:10:26.960 --> 03:10:28.960 in the presence of 03:10:28.960 --> 03:10:30.960 now I think it's time to 03:10:30.960 --> 03:10:32.960 refine our mathematical skills 03:10:32.960 --> 03:10:34.960 learn to think straight 03:10:34.960 --> 03:10:36.960 and not be afraid 03:10:36.960 --> 03:10:38.960 to denounce 03:10:38.960 --> 03:10:40.960 the pernicious forms 03:10:40.960 --> 03:10:42.960 of foolishness 03:10:42.960 --> 03:10:44.960 which are vitiating 03:10:44.960 --> 03:10:46.960 the energies of our community 03:10:46.960 --> 03:10:48.960 and making us appear 03:10:48.960 --> 03:10:50.960 marginal and absurd 03:10:50.960 --> 03:10:52.960 in the discourse about 03:10:52.960 --> 03:10:54.960 truly transforming society 03:10:54.960 --> 03:11:08.320 well I can't wait 03:11:08.320 --> 03:11:10.320 to see this laboratory 03:11:10.320 --> 03:11:12.320 of clarity unfold 03:11:12.320 --> 03:11:16.140 before me tonight 03:11:16.140 --> 03:11:18.140 and as all nonsense 03:11:18.140 --> 03:11:20.140 is dispelled 03:11:20.140 --> 03:11:22.140 the scalpel of reason 03:11:22.140 --> 03:11:24.140 is brought out 03:11:24.140 --> 03:11:26.140 yes well it is 03:11:26.140 --> 03:11:28.140 an ambiguous enterprise 03:11:28.140 --> 03:11:30.140 and fraught with contradiction 03:11:30.140 --> 03:11:32.140 but forward 03:11:32.140 --> 03:11:34.140 ever forward