high desert in the great American Southwest. I bid you all good evening or a good morning
as the case may be across all these time zones, stretching from way out in the Pacific with
the Tahitian and Hawaiian island chains, eastward to the Caribbean and the U.S. Virgin Islands,
south into South America, north to the pole, and worldwide on the Internet. This is Coast
to Coast AM. Good morning, everybody. I'm Mark Bell. And in the continuing adventure into
the unknown, uncharted territories of the human mind, we're going to be departing a little
in a way this night and interviewing a very, very unusual individual on the big island of
Hawaii named Terrence McKenna. Who is Terrence McKenna? Well, among other things, he's probably
the successor to Timothy Leary. That may not be the focus or it may turn into the focus
of the interview. I don't know. And I don't care. He also has a lot of very interesting
views on time and what we are approaching. And we'll talk about all that with Terrence McKenna.
Very interesting fellow in a moment. As a matter of fact, he had to come down. Oh, we'll find
out about that from a very obscure location. All right. This should be most interesting.
First, let us see if we can establish contact. Terrence McKenna, are you there?
I am, Mark. Good evening. How are you? Well, I'm just fine. And I hope you hear me. I hear
you okay. Yes, I hear you fine. All right. You are on the big island of Hawaii. Is that right?
That's right. Now, when I called you the other day, you were way up in an area where you're
only contact with the outside world was by cellular telephone. Where do you actually live?
On a mountain somewhere? I live up on the slopes of the world's largest volcano, which is Mauna
Loa. And when you called me the other day, we mutually agreed my cell phone is not ready
for prime time. So I came off the mountain. I do have up there a 128 case. Well, if it were
not for the delay, I would say an internet phone. We could have done the interview by internet
phone, but you have that little delay there that makes it hard. So I think we've done the
right thing. Anyway, so you're off your mountain perj... By the way, Terrence, what's it like
living on the side of an active volcano? Well, it's very exciting, actually. I don't know
if you've ever been out to the big island, but people think of Hawaii as swaying palms and
endless beaches. What we have out here are lava fields and 14,000-foot mountains on this island,
two of them. One, the world's largest volcano, the world's largest mountain in terms of volume,
and the other one just 100 or so feet short. We've got quite a dramatic landscape out here.
Is there any possibility that that volcano will actually blow? Well, it's been in continuous
eruption for the past 13 years, but over on the other side, about 70 miles away, on what's
called the helo, or the west side. So we sort of feel pretty safe out here. There is some
meeting of the international geese island, and... Well, it's probably a pretty good bet,
actually, in the long scheme of things. I think so. I think Hawaii is a very good place.
If the volcano should totally blow up, it's a painless death.
That's right. And a dramatic one.
Yeah, and a dramatic one as well. That's right. All right. You have a theory about time. Time,
actually, Karen's, is one of my favorite all-time topics. So before we launch into what you think
about time, tell me what you think time is. In other words, is time our invention, or is
time a real thing that we... I mean, I realize we're measuring it, but in the cosmic scheme
of things, is there really time? Yeah. I mean, you give me a perfect entree to launch into
this thing. See, in the west, we have inherited from Newton what is called the idea of pure duration,
which is simply that time is sort of a place where things are placed so that they don't
all happen at once. In other words, it's viewed as quality-less. It's an abstract... In fact,
I think when we carry out a complete analysis of time, what we're going to discover is that,
like matter, time is composed of elemental... On the other hand, it's thought to be this medium...
That's true. That's absolutely true. I've wondered about that all my life. There are periods of time
where, in effect, you can do no wrong. That's right. And other periods of time where you can do no right,
no matter what you do. Well, so, when looking at this, I created a vocabulary. Actually, I borrowed it
from Alfred North Whitehead. But I think I'm on to something which science has missed. It's a dynamic
struggle between two qualities, which I call... I'm sorry, habit and what? Novelty. Novelty. Okay. It's already been
achieved into a system. And novelty. If you look at large scales of time, novelty in a galaxy has become more...
Yes. And so, turning that on its head, we could... Oh, I've taken by that is the original cloud of
electron plasma, eventually atomic... meaning life, later life. And this is a principle that reaches right up to
what I've noticed are, looking across something that is as true to societies as it is of termite
populations or populations of... of things about an idea like this, is it spans the existentialism
of modern philosophy. If you're modern atheists and damn lucky to be here and any meaning you get out of
the situation, you're simply a value system, then the human world as we find it today with our technologies
and our complex societies represents suddenly you have a basis. All right. Let me stop you right there.
Okay. One of the first things that you said when we got on the air this morning was that you had a
128 baud connection from your mountaintop secret location. Right. Okay. As we are discussing your theory, which is
fascinating, of novelty. I'm taken to ask you about a quote, actually several pages, written by Michael Crichton. And I know you
know who he is. With reference to the internet, it is Michael Crichton's contention that the internet, which one might
consider to be novelty exemplified, is going to result not in more novelty, but in fact in a slowing of the
process of evolution or novelty as you see it. Because there will be a commonality. There will not be
innovation. There will not be entrepreneurship. There will be ten main ideas in America and Hong Kong and Moscow and
London and so forth. How would you address that? Well, I'm astonished. I hardly know what he's talking about.
Let me give you my take on this. Okay. Let me rephrase it. He's saying the internet will stifle diversity and that diversity is
critical to advancement. Well, what I see happening, and I spend hours and hours a day on the internet, is I believe it's the
greatest force empowering marginal and minority points of view to come along in centuries. In other words, before the internet, the
great establishment ideas already had the machinery of media to communicate their position. True. What has happened is that the
common man has gotten into the game with technology that I really don't think was ever intended to fall into. Oh, you bet it wasn't. Yes. So I don't know what
Crichton is talking about. I believe what the internet is doing is dissolving boundaries and a much richer
evolutionary interplay among ideas. Well, I might expand on it this way. He suggests, for example, that if you were to take an
an otherwise deserted or barren desert island and you were to put a species upon it, that species, because there are so few of
them, would by necessity be very innovative, would change very quickly in trying to adapt and live and stay alive. On the other hand, if you put many, many
creatures on that island, that process would be far slower. And he uses that as a parallel to the internet. I'm not sure that I agree with
it either. I just found an interesting take on the sociological implications of the internet. Well, you see, when people talk about the
internet, they're usually talking about the internet that was, because it's moving so quickly. For example, I just read the paper by a guy named
Alexander Cheslenko out at the Media Lab at MIT. And he's talking about plug-ins that will translate websites of one language into another.
Well, now imagine when people can put up websites in Telugu, and you can automatically slide into those websites.
You're describing Crichton's nightmare and your best dream, I believe.
Well, this is the thing about techniques that have missed, which would have led me to the second half of the observation.
Only does the unit into novelty, and the ones which have led to the hysterics that have missed.
Is it, Terence, a linear process, or an exponentially accelerating process?
It's an exponentially accelerating process, which has made a lot of people.
The novelty is now moving, so within our own, it is going to accelerate.
You have described precisely what I have just written about. I wrote a book called The Quickening.
Someone showed me your book, and I said, this guy is on to this.
I'm on to it from, I guess, more of a pedestrian perspective than yourself after listening to your first half hour, Terence.
But we're talking about, it suddenly dawned on me exactly, precisely the same thing.
I've been doing this talk radio program for about 13 years, you know, the all-night show.
Right.
And I am a trained observer of events and people.
And every night I've had to watch the news and dissect what is going on in our world to prepare to do this program.
And in that 13 years, unmistakably, socially, economically, politically, environmentally, you name it, we can talk about it, in every one of those areas of human endeavor, things are beginning to accelerate.
There is simply no question about it.
And that sounds exactly to be the same thing you're proposing here.
Yes, where I've gone further than most people is a lot of people have noticed the time is speeding up phenomenon, but they tend to give credit to science or media or something like that.
That's right.
Yes, well, what I'm saying is this is built into the laws of physics.
Oh, I think you're right. Terence, we're at the bottom of the hour.
I think you're exactly right, Terence.
And so stay right where you are.
Oh, interesting, very interesting.
Terence McKenna from the Big Island of Hawaii is my guest.
I'm Art Bell, and this is CBC.
Calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
That's 702-727-1295.
First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222.
Now, here again, Art Bell.
Once again, here I am.
Good morning, everybody.
It's great to be here.
And we have a very, very interesting fellow on the line.
His name is Terence McKenna, and he's from the Big Island of Hawaii.
And he has just described to me in language that you had to listen very carefully to exactly what I wrote about.
The quickening.
And we'll pick up on that in a moment.
It's fascinating.
My God, it's like hearing my own theory amplified coming back at me or an explanation of what I wrote about.
Wow.
Anyway, in a moment, back to Terence.
Back now to Hawaii and Terence McKenna.
Terence, I thought we lost you for a moment, but I think we have you back.
Are you there?
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
There will be silences during the break, so do not interpret that as we have disconnected, Terence.
Only if you get a dial tone are we in trouble.
Otherwise, just hang in there, okay?
All righty.
All right.
I mean, I sat here as I listened to the first half hour in shock because I realized you were describing exactly what I wrote about.
And what I did, Terence, I realized that a lot of people say this quickening, or whatever you want to call it, whatever name you want to put to it, is a byproduct of mass communication.
And I began to realize, uh-uh, no, it is not a product of mass communication.
Yes, we're hearing about it more and more volumes of it, but in fact, in fact, what you are describing is really going on.
And I documented that much in my book, in real everyday life, in each one of these areas and many more, I documented the fact that it is not mass communication that is beginning to quicken things, but there is another process at work.
Now, I don't know what that is, and I don't know where it's leading.
In other words, people will say, well, when we finally get to this crunch point, whatever that is, what will happen?
And I don't have that answer.
I'm just a talk show host, an observer, but maybe you do.
When we finally reach what you call time wave zero, what is going to happen?
Well, the only way to predict what's going to happen is to look at the quality of what has happened as the quickening, as you call it, has begun to accelerate.
What it's been characterized by is dissolution of boundaries between classes of people, bodies of knowledge, pools of capital, language groups, so forth and so on.
And so it seems to me ultimate novelty must be a situation where all boundaries are dissolved.
And, of course, what that looks like, I don't know.
I don't know whether it's a virtual reality where you become God through the public utilities or exactly what it is.
But it's clear to me that the human nervous system is globalizing itself, building a model of conscious thought on a planetary scale.
Tens of thousands of people are participating in this.
None of them have a real notion what it's all about.
But everyone is serving this sort of unfolding grand design.
And, you know, I think the emergence of alphabets, the emergence of hominids out of more primitive primates.
Were you able to discern any timelines to time wave zero?
Well, yes.
I mean, we've been talking about this as a metaphor.
What makes me, I hope, a little different from some of the other prophets in the marketplace is, well, because it is a dualistic thing like that.
In other words, it can be portrayed as a line graph.
So, I've written computer programs, produced what I call novel, scaled ontological and geological data.
I was able to finally discern a best time, isn't millennia, sometime in late...
2012.
Now, I know you have some interest in the Mayan calendar.
I do.
I didn't know when I calculated this date that it was the same end date.
Let me ask you this, Terence.
What did you input to your database for this computer program?
In other words, what did I start with?
Yeah, yeah.
Yes.
Well, I started, I had a very academic interest in the Qing, which is the Chinese method of divination.
Carried out a mathematical analysis of...
Wait, wait, wait.
I don't know what Qing is, and I bet a lot of other people don't either.
A Chinese method of divining, what kind of method?
What is it?
In China, it's sometimes done by throwing a fit, which is made up of either broken or unbroken lines.
If you're a mathematician, you can figure if it's made up of broken and unbroken lines, and there are six of them on top of each other,
and there must be thousands of years ago in China, there was a vast body of literary content presented in a traditional or academic quest.
It was simply a random jumble sanctioned by tradition that the I Ching was 384.
Actually, a nest is suggesting here is that in the same way that the weather of matter,
a thousand years ago in China, a deeper analysis...
Where are you, Lord?
What are you, Lord?
Where are you?
Where are you...
became buried then
in this
to all this stuff
uh... terence what is your website
w dot levity dot com
and then just
click on parent mckenna there levity is l e v i p y dot
it's uh... it's w w dot levity dot com
uh... will get a link up shortly
by visiting your website today you've got good people will keep his and he does a
wonderful job all right well uh... so then you you get there and then just
click on terence mckenna
and uh... be sure you're buckled in from the sound of what i've heard so far
well it'd be interesting
the art is
called a record
thing in other words if you have a wave of novelty that
predict
enlightenment
uh... the the modernity of the twentieth century that sounds quite scientific in
other words uh... science is repeatability and if you can repeatedly
demonstrate
that you can mathematically show the events of the past then yes i would
imagine you could
project
well urea is in a camp very conservative it never said
what when we're doing things are highly likely
and when you're just wasting your time
when you look out uh... or project out short toward uh... twenty twelve
um... what is the magnitude of the spike or the difference
there
uh... if you can give us an idea of magnitudes
uh... along the way
there is only one point where the level of habit becomes infinite
it's very interesting there are some people on the net called head of
engineering types and they take out and they conclude that sometime between 2008 and
infinite amounts of data into infinitely small spaces
thing where
because of the acceleration
unfolding of this novelty process
we're going to cross more territory between here and 2012
than we've crossed between the big bang and getting to here
that's an incredible thought
it kind of explains what
uh... that
it isn't that it isn't the metamorphosis beings ending into a new
into this process of self-revelation
raving about this is what
every prophet on the street corner is trying to articulate and
no question
uh... i think it's real i think we're getting a lot of
you know marshall mcleughan once said we drive into the future using only our rearview mirror
uh... and uh... that's sort of what it is that i call this thing the transcendental object at the end of time
oh in a sense religion and christian revelation it will all be because nature has this appetite for novelty and acceleration into novelty
so then again i ask uh... at this moment uh... that we speak of uh... 2012
right what do you actually think will occur
well i've
thought about this a good deal and they're hard and soft and
you know that i've noticed that what the time wave seems most
uh...
coherently able to track is technology
somehow technology is very important i need to put in an appearance
you know if you look at biology
over millions of years
uh... it is a kind of
conquest
of dimensionality
all right uh... let's let's consider that
uh... somebody recently said and i have been considering since i heard it
uh... a very simple
question if time travel
is possible
then where are the time travelers
well when i ask that question to my
or can only travel as far back into the past the moment of the invention of the
first
but let me think about that does that make sense you could only travel back to the
moment of the invention of the time machine
because part of that
there was no capability
it's like trying to drive where there are no roads
it also means when you invent the first time machine instantly time machines will
appear
by the tens of thousands
having come back through time to
see the first
flight into time
that's and that's incredible and never
that's a whole new line of thought
for me
about that question uh... and it might
sense
it might make sense
uh... and uh... and your analogy is trying to
that you cannot drive in essence uh... uh...
where there are no where there are no rules of course you you nearly do that
when you go home uh... from broadcast here but
and you haven't even been up to
you need to be here
i think uh... uh... we're very proud of our bad road
i understand
that keeps the riffraff away as it was certainly good
only it doesn't keep the riffraff away but it keeps everybody else the way
away
how long uh... appearance have you been residing on the side of the volcano
there
well continuously for about three and a half years i've had land out here for
about
uh... well from seventy seven
since seventy seven and before that
uh... i lived i grew up in western colorado and i'm uh... have my children and my
marriage and all that in
uh... california lived thirty five years in northern california
uh-huh
um...
you knew
timothy leary yes
uh... i knew him uh... we appeared in public mostly in europe uh... together a few times and he certainly was a huge influence on me i only came to know him in the in the past seven or eight years but
uh... as a kid growing up in the sixties he he was an enormous influence on me
you are now being called by many uh... his heir apparent uh... his heir now i guess
well i think not by many but i was called it by him everybody else kept their mouths shut
uh...
so i have my method i'm very interested in the psychedelic experience i i was raised catholic and what i tell us
yes supernatural yes and i went to india and i made the rounds of the gurus and the gay shades and i didn't find what i was looking for
for but when i went
jungles down there
i discovered that
it's only the kid and what i had taken finance and modern chemistry
religious and thousands of years old listen let me look let us pick this up
after the top of the air now listen to me carefully you've got about a ten
minute break here
uh... at least and you're not going to hear anything don't let it bother you
just put phone down grab cup coffee or something or another and we'll be back
to you okay all right stay right there this is cbc
all art bell toll free west of the rockies at 1-800-618-8255
1-800-618-8255 east of the rockies at 1-800-825-5033
1-800-825-5033
this is the cbc radio network the lines are absolutely alive
and uh... everybody out there just relax for a little while
i have some advice for you
my guest is a very very unusual person whose name is terence
mckenna
in order to properly appreciate what you're about to hear if you're just joining us
in
los angeles san francisco and so forth
you're going to have to pretty much put down whatever you're doing
i'll turn the radio off a little bit and listen very carefully because it makes
a lot of sense but you've got to listen carefully
terence mckenna we'll find out more about him in a moment lives on the side of
a
an active volcano in hawaii
an interesting place to choose to live by itself
and an interesting man indeed
so terence more of terence mckenna
coming up
prepare yourself for an experience
here's what was written to me about terence mckenna before we invited him on the program
uh... art have you heard about terence mckenna's theory called
time wave zero
he suggests that as we get closer
to time wave zero
we are experiencing tachyon radiation from it
evidently the impending event is so colossal
that it will emit such intense radiation
that some of it takes the form of faster than light speed
tachyon particles or waves which
uh... can travel faster than light
and that they're actually being hurtled backward in time
the closer we get to the event the greater the radiation density
hence the more frequently and
intensely we experience paranormal phenomena associated with it
we'll ask about that by the way we haven't yet
this could be the mechanism behind
what you call
the quickening
the event we are approaching will probably be something ten amount to a
white hole or a mini big bang
it will for all intents and purposes be
the end of time
for us
terence believes it will occur consistent with the mayan calendar
in the year twenty twelve
now by the way he has to derived this
um... independently of the mayan calendar
he simply uh... has discovered that it coincides with it
he goes on it is not unreasonable to assume
that et's possessing ufos if they exist
will be flocking here to research or rather
pre-search the phenomenon
it is also believed that tachyon bombardment
would have bizarre effects on the human nervous system
visions that sort of thing as well as
physical manifestations in the environment
like the clear water virgin
bizarre mutations like the chupacabra
and heaven knows what else
all the stuff you attribute to the quickening
might be explained by this
and after listening to the first hour i must agree
terence i'm stealing one more bit of time
to read you of facts that i think relates and challenges you a little bit
it is from steven in wichita and it's well thought out
um...
here it is art i'm not sure
but you can equate novelty with either acceleration or complexity
a nature has always been novel
and surprisingly so considering earlier periods in earth's history
given that over ninety percent of all species
that have ever lived are now extinct
and the exotic body designs
it would seem novelty is a given
but in order to be effective
it must have a survival advantage
once the novelty becomes a hindrance
it disappears
acceleration may be more a factor of population density
virtually all of the social problems we face today have been duplicated years ago
in rat population density studies
our novel inventions of this century
have simply allowed us to artificially compress distance and time
by modes of travel and communications
profit motives
have directed and limited the novelty of our civilization in this century as never before
and we are becoming
a hindrance
the higher the population density
the more the acceleration seems to be
anecdotal but relative
compare the pace of a small country town
to a large city
with its population density and resulting problems accelerated by stress
and profit motives
that's from steve in wichita
what what do you think uh... terence
well i don't disagree with all of that
uh... i think there's certainly been admin flow of novelty within the twentieth century
uh... parts of it more novel than others
but i think to to argue that it isn't among the most novel periods in time is the pretty uphill battle
uh... the question is whether novelty is something which simply adheres to statistical dynamics
or whether it's a real direction a real arrow that is directing process and that's what i maintain
uh... i think it's not true to say that uh... uh... the biota of the earth today is not more novel than it was in the past
certainly there are novel forms of life which have undergone extinction
but the uh... proliferation of human life which is an advanced animal plus a culture creating creature
indicates to me that we're at a level of novelty that this planet has never before
an arguable thing because history
how do you rate the world
nevertheless though we don't have an absolute quantum
quantologies was concentrated
all right you
uh... put together a computer program
which um...
which was able to trace uh... the ebb and the flow of this novelty
and in effect chart
major events in history
um... how many
uh... if i might ask
um... hits and misses
uh... as you as you'd
thought when you forgot this in final development and then you look at each point in history
um... how many hits and misses
were there any
misses in the model or
did you hit
each
uh... major moment in history on the nose
well by my understanding of this
theory there can be no misses
in other words it's not a statistical theory we're not okay if we're right two-thirds of the time
here here
so we have to be right all the time
so you're telling me you are
i submit to you and to the world for your examination and critiquing the fact that yes
the time wave
uh... with its end point in december twenty first twenty twelve
describes with as great an accuracy as i am able to discern the actual vicissitudes of novelty and habit in history and natural history that's the claim that's right
uh... terence have you submitted this uh... i mean this is serious science that you're discussing
uh... have you submitted this because of its repeatability not science now have you submitted this to peer review
well uh... among mathematicians yes and there's a lively debate raging on the internet about that
uh... let me say something though here about
uh...
science and why
the acceptance of the time wave
can't really occur
under the tent of repeatability is the idea at the very base notice that what the time wave theory is
every moment in time is a unique moment
is unique and not and will not a specific excuse me specifically repeat but what you're suggesting is
that you can plot
the highs of novelty
uh... throughout history
yes you can
but you cannot
uh...
you cannot assume
uh... that you're doing it probabilistically in other words
uh... essentially when you really understand philosophically what the time wave is saying
it's an enormous attack on probability theory
you know the way science works now is if you want to know how much energy is flowing through a wire
you take a thousand measurements you add them together and you divide by a thousand
and then you have the current flowing through the wire
you notice that that assumes that it doesn't matter what time you make the measurement
and so much of science is like this
to the point where i am redefining science and saying
science is the study of those phenomena
so time in which they occurred does not affect
leaves out them
uh... empire building
everything interests
finally embedded in the context into that kind of scientific modeling
uh... so
so in other words
uh... they're really relatively small insignificant events that don't enter into the larger measurements
you're making
of this uh...
ebb and flow
well for instance on a given day when the chart says novelty will be high
certainly somewhere in the world someone is having a very un-novel day
uh... it's a statistical thing
a bell curve
no reference to you art
thank you
but uh... a bell curve
where when the wave is predicting high novelty
most people most systems will experience that novelty
but of course some will not
it's the idea that probability is ebbing and flowing
you know when you study
the odds are through the coin would land on its edge every single time
that's the rarest of all results in a coin toss
indeed
so what's really happening is that what are called secondary and tertiary fact would be heads or tails
i say no
there are zones in time where heads are favored and zones in time where tails are favored
the idea that time can then dealt with greek idealism and careful examination of nature shows it to be inadequate in the same way that
military motion
you are therefore saying that conventional science
uh... does not have and cannot have with its present uh... course of investigation and a proper understanding of time
that's right because it assumes that it is to be analyzed with denies the times and
terence how long have you been working on this
oh since nineteen seventy one
seventy one
yes
um...
what is your you you you you you you you you told me that uh... you're you're originally from colorado family and all that back in colorado
right uh... then finally exile
uh... well essentially yes and i got myself to the university of california and at berkeley right at the top of basically to check out the hash dens and the gurus
and uh...
the hash was fine but the gurus just wanted into my pocket
then i went to south america and as i mentioned that's where this shamanism thing
what part of south america terence uh... southern columbia the putamayo river basin
and uh... like plants
the eatability
meek
and with
relative
intelligence
and in other words life
but no i i let me quickly stop you there and ask you
about crop circles many many people feel
that they are fractal in nature and if you're on the internet i know you've seen uh... photographs of some of the more amazing ones stone and some of the rest of them
they do appear
to be fractal um... what is your thinking there
well i was
thinking you know i don't think it's been published in this country novel uh... to my mind that blows the lid
you and i could spend the whole evening art discussing uh... the relationship i really think the the psychedelic community has evidence to give on these paranormal questions that has never been properly heard and evaluated because the ordinary society's attitude to both
yes i know
but i think we admit the psychedelic evidence and if we do admit it suddenly the whole thing begins
all right terence i don't reject it
um... and a lot of guests that i've had on
uh... who have been into the very same areas we're in right now
um... very politically correctly
uh... rejected
out of hand uh... we don't you don't need it to accomplish this
uh... they say that you can do it uh... within yourself
and i don't reject that
thought
either but i would like to hear the case that you would present
um...
for for psycho doctor as i felt it's opening the doors that you're talking about
um... that that in fact they do uh...
um...
well how would you make that case
well i hear what you're saying is you're equating
spiritual technique
like yoga and prayer and you know exactly
and that sort of thing
i'm not sure there's a connection i mean it does help to be an ethical person
to take psychedelics
but psychedelics that has fascinated me most
no it isn't what is it
well that's what it is dimethyltrypnit
a number of side the flying saucer that all these doubt raving about
initiating an action
on your own in other words
we get it back in your apartment
pretty much none the worse
for lights of the ufo community or anyone else
who has an interest
phenomena
all right all right
hold tight terence
we're at another break point
stay put we'll be right back to you
this is cbc
zing
Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
That's 702-727-1295.
First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222.
Now, here again, Art Bell.
Well, when I tell you we have different shows, maybe you're beginning to believe me.
Terrence McKenna is my guest.
What a totally interesting individual he is.
You've got to sit by the radio, turn the volume up a little bit,
put down your book or whatever else you're doing, and listen.
Back now to the big island of Hawaii and a very unusual individual named Terrence McKenna.
Terrence, I've got a question for you.
Have you ever watched Star Trek?
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yes, good.
You're familiar, then, with the Prime Directive?
Uh, thou shalt not interfere is, I believe, the Prime Directive.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
Now, um, what you are saying is so serious and is such a large revelation that, uh, is it
not possible that you are, in a sense, doing what you're doing right now, uh, violating
the Prime Directive?
Well, uh, uh, you know, it's only been about a hundred years since the news began to arrive
in the lap of Western civilization that there were these, uh, psychoactive plants scattered
around the world.
Yes.
The first one was the peyote cactus, and in 1888 mescaline was extracted from that.
Uh, I think it's not without implication that right at our moment of greatest cultural crisis,
when we're destroying the environment and uprooting the rainforests and so forth and so
on, that out of those same rainforests comes a phenomenon which, if we will face a severe
challenge to our notion of how reality works and how the world is put together.
And what if we miss it?
What if we burn down, finally, enough of the rainforests that that one plant that we could
have used, uh, is destroyed?
Well, this may have already happened in only one known source.
All right, uh, uh, tackle this one, Art.
Very interesting.
Terrence describes a workable scenario.
But my question with it is this, is this a universal process or only a localized effect?
I believe that one of the theories of modern physics describes that observations affect the
process or thing being observed.
Is it possible that the, uh, the data, the random sticks in China, is somewhat skewed by
what is being determined as to time?
Hasn't everybody, uh, noticed the phenomenon of time being perceived to slow down depending
on how frequently you, for example, look at the clock?
Cooks have noticed the same effect with boiling water.
The quickening may be happening because we notice certain events and then notice more of
the same as time goes along.
In other words, we cause the process to occur at least from our point of view, Ed in Nashville.
Is this a moment of deep thinking?
Yes, well, I am thinking.
Uh, I think it's a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy.
I think we are contributing to it as we uncover it within ourselves.
Yes.
Something is calling us toward itself and as we approach it we become more like it.
Something is sculpting out of the primate body over a couple of million years an entirely
different kind of creature.
And as we go to meet this thing which I call the transcendental mystery at the end of time,
we are taking on more and more of its characteristics, its God-like power.
Yes.
And when we finally do reach it, I imagine there will be a kind of effortless moment of merging
and recognition.
Signposts along the way, life on Mars, maybe Europa, cloning.
Uh, the rise of the Internet, virtual reality, nanotechnology, possibly alien artifacts.
Uh, one image I carry of this thing, Art, is you know those mirrored bulbs?
Yes.
And installations are disordinary reality and more and more...
That clearly is a process underway now.
Yes.
And everyone is...
There is a lot of fear, a lot of uncertainty.
I am not afraid of it.
I would really like...
One of the great things about the psychedelic aliens is that the media vibrate with.
It's a much more upbeat and in context that it...
This one plant, or this one drug that you described...
Dimethyltryptamine.
Yeah, DMT.
I don't know what that is.
Um...
But it only lasts five minutes.
Five minutes?
Five minutes.
So someone who has spent a lifetime denying the existence of the paranormal, for that matter,
should at least be willing to invest five minutes.
Uh, we've never lost anybody.
You pick yourself up and go on about your business.
Five minutes.
Uh, the effects, uh, could you describe them, uh, to much of my audience that I know can recall
the effects of LSD or, uh, various mushrooms?
It's very...
It's very different.
Very different, huh?
Well, LSD is a logical site.
What happens with DM gone to a...
It comes on in about six dribbling jeweled basketballs that are intelligent in some sense.
They're like badly trained Rottweilers.
They come bounding for some kind of a language lesson because they have a language which you
can see is the only way I can explain it.
What is the source of DMT?
Is it a manufactured drug?
It can be, but it's this Latin salad ecosystem on Earth has DMT sources in it.
In fact, the human brain, naturally, we don't know.
But I'm not saying that's the answer to the UFO phenomenon.
But how many people have looked at this and pursued it?
Well, then let me ask this.
Uh, there are many who claim to have been abducted, uh, Terrence.
And, uh, if DMT is a natural occurring substance in the brain, uh, your theory could probably
be verified by measuring, uh, those who have claimed to be abducted, uh, would such a measurement
scientifically be possible?
Well, the problem is, you recall, I said it only lasts five minutes.
So unusual amounts of it in the body are very quickly brought down to baseline.
Uh, it's one of the most transient drugs in the body, uh, ever, ever.
And an interesting thing about it, Art, is when they measure its presence, they look at human cerebrus.
Yes.
And so I think Australian aboriginals have this concept of the dream time.
Yes.
And I think when you put the dream time, the chemistry of modern media has programmed and
messed with our aliens.
But I think they can only reach us through our minds.
They don't cross and project holograms of themselves into the desert air.
The human mind.
And if you look at the human mind, in all cultures and in all times and places, except for intellectuals
in the past few hundred years, the human mind has always been haunted by...
Yes.
Uh, the modern wave has anything more than the latest wave.
They say, well, so this is the old psychological reduction.
When I say the human imagination, I don't mean...
Hear, hear.
Um, how is such a theory, uh, greeted by the majority of people who listen to it?
I mean, right now I'm getting a lot of faxes and a lot of people are really hearing what
you're saying.
Uh, even though you've got to listen very carefully, they're hearing what you're saying, Terrence,
and, uh, a lot of them are agreeing with you.
Uh, but there's going to be a big body of very violent disagreement too, isn't there?
Well, yes.
Uh, there are some very large eggs at stake in this game.
Uh, I mentioned science and the need to revive probability theory.
There is a lot of, uh, vested interest in certain versions of what the UFO phenomenon is.
But you see, what I bring to all is but a message.
Oh no, I hear that.
Uh, so then would you suggest that sightings of UFOs, uh, abduction encounters, uh, are,
if, if you could be there measuring a burst of DMT, you'd certainly find it at that moment?
I think you would find it.
And I think you would also, another place where you would find it is at human death.
Uh, I think this is very important.
And, uh...
At human death.
I think as we die, we have, if we haven't had it, a DMT trip.
Uh, I also think probably every night, in these,
we penetrate into realms from which we can remember almost nothing.
Well then, that would be another moment at which you should be able to measure a spike in DMT level in the brain.
Uh, are you talking about death?
No, no.
Uh, yes, yes.
I, yes, yes.
I'm talking about both instances you cited, uh, REM sleep, deep REM sleep, and the moment of death.
Well, it's been confirmed in deep REM doing this kind of research on dying people.
It has.
A lot of ethical questions.
I, I understand.
But you're saying it has been confirmed?
Do you know where?
In deep sleep.
Uh, no, no.
In, in what institution there has been confirmation of this?
Well, at the University of, uh, of Mississippi a few years ago, a team led by a guy named Christian.
Uh, all those papers are in the literature.
And in fact, anyone interested in this should just search DMT on the internet and they may have never heard of it, but they will be astonished.
Well, I've never heard of it, but, but, but the, your, your, your chain of logic is making sense to me now.
Uh, let us talk for a second about paranormal events.
As we approach time wave zero, uh, it is your contention, I think, that paranormal events, ghosts, poltergeists, um, paranormal events of all manner and shape will begin to increase.
Which would suggest, I think, that, uh, DMT spikes will be increasing.
Yes?
I, it's a way of putting it.
And certainly DMT is becoming more known in society.
And there's a, almost a fad now of locating plants in one's environment and, and extracting this stuff and getting enough out to actually hit the money.
Yeah.
Do we have laws against it yet, by the way?
I guess I had to ask, huh?
Well, uh, it's an interesting situation.
Here it is in a human neurotransmitter.
Every single one of us has it in our body.
And, yes, this is among the most illegal substances.
Figures.
It figures, doesn't it?
Yeah, it does.
Figures.
It's the catch-22.
We're all holding, Art.
Well, the way things are going, uh, we'll probably all be tossed and pokey for it.
We'll have little roadside, uh, stops and DMT measuring devices.
Well, I think this was to add them all.
You made a, uh, I'm going to return to another subject for a second.
You made a fascinating statement.
I said, well, if, if, if there's time travel, where are the time travelers?
Your answer was, uh, they will not be here until the first time machine is invented because
you could not, uh, go back to a time prior to the invention of a machine that would enable travel.
Uh, your parallel was, you can't travel where there are not roads.
And there were, are not roads, uh, back that far in time.
Right.
Um, if time is to virtually end by 2012, Terence, where would you see the invention of time machine,
uh, a time machine, the first time machine, uh, between now and then?
Well, I don't think it's between now and then.
Oh.
Actually, the, I think it's then.
It's then?
It's then.
In other words, if what the time wave zero thing is showing is that events can be portrayed
in this linear way as a line on a graph.
Yes.
That suddenly in 2012, for some mysterious reason, this can no longer be done.
It must be because in 2012 time ceases to be linear.
And that must mean that's because a technology is created which causes time to lose its linear and serial quality.
And that could only be time travel.
And you believe that at that moment, uh, tens of thousands or millions or who knows of time travelers will suddenly show up?
Well, actually, that's my conservative, uh, model of what would happen.
Which is, time travel is always said to be impossible because you travel back in time and you could kill your own grandfather.
The paradox, yes.
How do we avoid this?
Yes.
I think we avoid it by actually what happens when this is invented is, I call it the .
So in other words, linearity ends at that instant.
And the rest does get a lot of action in the first few nanoseconds, undergoes a genetic unfolding in the last few milliseconds.
Is that then the moment when the human race, in effect, joins those that we can temporarily now visit only with something like DMT?
Or that the human race joins those who have passed over into the great beyond, or I think it is.
Are they one in the same in your view?
Or, or?
They may be.
I thought that, you know, these DMT creatures, what are they?
And the conservative position of human beings, but the only answer I, I resisted.
The shamans have been using planned and that there is a kind of ecology of souls out there.
When you ask the shaman, they say, well, you weren't listening with ancestors.
Absolutely fascinating, Terence.
Listen to me.
We're at the top of the hour.
Go take a 10 or 12 minute break.
And when we come back, we're going to talk about souls because I've, I've got some recent, really incredible news about souls.
And you're just the right guy to comment on that.
And don't worry folks.
We will get the lines open.
Terence, rest.
Okay.
All right.
Terence McKenna.
Terence McKenna, wow, is my guest.
Are you listening?
From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.
And this is the independent and sometimes very strange but fascinating CBC network.
It certainly is.
And you know how I know when I've hit the mark.
I begin getting about 25% of my faxes that say, well, this is the lowest point you've ever hit, Art.
This is the worst you've ever done.
And then the rest of them, the people that are really listening, say things like, my God, this is brilliant.
I've been waiting for this best show you've ever had.
And it goes one way or the other.
But I've learned over a period of time to kind of gauge the reaction about that way.
And that's exactly what we're getting.
What you're getting is something you've probably never heard before.
And it's coming from a man named Terence McKenna on the big island of Hawaii.
If it rubs you the wrong way, you know where the dial is.
If, on the other hand, you have the time to sit down and really listen to what's being said,
not reacting like a Neanderthal with your head hitting the table,
then you're going to come away from this thinking some new thoughts.
And there is value in that.
Back to Terence shortly.
All right.
We are shortly going to go to the phone lines with Terence McKenna.
That should be an interesting adventure unto itself.
But I want to ask you, Terence, a little bit about souls.
You mentioned souls.
And so I have two questions.
One is there was a recent, not recent, very old medical study in which a medical doctor actually endeavored to set out and prove in days when it was politically okay to do this kind of thing,
that the soul could actually be measured, that at the very instant of human death, and he went through a whole big trip.
I put the medical report up on my website.
The human body loses about three quarters of an ounce, and not due to gases or anything else you might imagine in your mind, no physical cause, all of that accounted for.
And he printed and published this medical study suggesting the human body actually instantly, at the instant of death, loses three quarters of an ounce of weight.
Do you have any reaction to that?
Well, looking at it through the eyes of novelty theory, I think nature is very reluctant to give up a complex ordered form once it's been achieved.
I've noticed that the difference between living organisms and things like chairs and tables, the chairs and tables don't metabolize.
In a sense, the soul is something which is manifest in time.
It's almost as though organisms have a hyperdimension.
They're objects with time folded inside of them.
Yes.
And at death, what seems to happen is this now, it's simply over matter, but it isn't being taken.
I absolutely agree with you.
By your description, it would suggest there could not be physical weight to it, or could there be?
No, I think pointed out because of social attitude.
Next data point.
I don't know up there on the mountain whether you've got television.
Do you have television up there?
Well, we have it, but we don't do much.
You don't do much with it very well.
Well, 2020, about a week ago, did a truly fascinating segment.
Maybe you heard me talking about it on the program.
Damn to sing.
They followed a 57-year-old woman who received both a heart and lung transplant from a teenage boy.
When she woke up from the operation, she had the immediate cravings, I mean immediate cravings, of a teenage boy.
And if that's not enough for you Terrence, she of course had no idea who the donor was, but she had a dream in one of the successive nights in which she dreamt the name of the donor.
All of this was chronicled on 2020.
Now, again it goes to the question of the nature of the soul, but I mean these are physical body parts.
And the obvious implication here is that some essence of that boy was transferred to this woman.
And it is not the only case of this.
It has been noted again and again in transplant cases.
What does that suggest?
Well, you know, we have memories and we've never located, though we believe they are in the brain, we've never proven or demonstrated that.
My friend Rupert Sheldrake, the British physicist, he believes everything has a kind of memory.
The objects, organs, ideologies, and that these things surround objects like auras and follow them through time.
That you can't move a heart or an organ from one body to another without some of the, dare we say it, karma associated with it coming with it.
I don't see how it could be any other way.
Sure, we dare say that, no problem.
And I think it's fascinating.
So it, again, is really evidence of, I don't know if I dare use the word soul, because I'm not sure that is the soul,
but it certainly is some sort of transference that is occurring that indicates that maybe our soul or our being is in no central location,
but rather a total part of us, yes?
Yes, absolutely, yes.
All right.
I would like to begin taking some calls here and let them ask you some questions.
First time caller line, you're on the air with Terence McKenna in Hawaii.
Yes, Terence, I've got so many ideas I wanted to question you about, but I'll try to limit it.
As far as souls go, would we agree that the electrochemical energy in the brain has to go somewhere after death?
Yes, this is what we're saying, that in a sense it withdraws into what I call hyperspace.
In a way you could say the body is a lower dimensional sectioning of a higher dimensional object, which is the soul-body complex.
Yes, and on the other point I wanted to touch on, as far as your uniqueness curve, how do you account for the chaos theory?
There are random particles in the universe affecting the interaction particles that they come by.
I agree with you that nature as a large system is circular.
It recirculates.
I mean, there are cycles, but...
I'm not sure that's what the time wave zero theory suggests at all.
No, I think this word you introduced into the question, random,
this word is a word out of probability theory and statistics.
I mean, there may be random processes in the universe,
but so far the only ones we've ever found were inside random number generators
produced by mathematicians.
In other words, it's a nice, simple supposition to suppose as random,
but the more we look at nature, the more we find order.
Chaos theory...
Ilya Prigozhin and Ralph Abraham and all these people...
I want to ask you something, Terrence.
I interviewed a scientist who now has a private company called Pear Inc.
He produces... you may know about this.
He produces a computer program in which you are able...
which is a gigantic random number generator designed to run on a good fast computer.
And it enables you to pull down two pictures.
For example, one of random absolute noise on the left,
and the other of, it wouldn't matter, the scene of a mountain,
or any other physical photograph that you might want to bring down.
It gives you many choices.
You put them side by side, Terrence, and then you...
The process of randomness will begin in the computer,
and your job is to sit in front of the computer
and to cause the random noise...
Well, you can do it either way.
Cause the random noise to disappear,
bringing the picture into perfect clarity, resolution.
Or you can work on it the other way and try to cause the picture to be completely consumed by the random noise.
And the suggestion is, and there is a rating given at each sitting,
the suggestion, and apparently the proof is,
that you, with your mind, are able to affect a rapidly generating random number sequence, generator, whatever.
And by God, you can sit there and do it.
Yes.
There is a site on the web called the Retro Psychokinesis site,
where they claim you not only can move these random number generators around,
but you can move them around in the past.
In other words...
In the past?
Yes.
In other words, they invite you to...
Numbers are being flashed on the screen.
They invite you to concentrate on the numbers being odd or even.
And then they demonstrate that to a small percentage,
people can actually push this in the direction they want it to go.
So what does that suggest?
It is really the same thing I described to you, just a different method.
Same thing, though.
Well, but then there is another wrinkle.
They tell the people they're generating the numbers in real time,
but they've actually made the tape three weeks before and put it in a vault,
and the people are still able to accomplish what they set out to do before they set out.
So...
Yes, there's lots of this stuff being statistical amenable to the web,
and word hasn't reached by it.
That is a form of time travel to the past.
I think what we're going to discover is that time is not determined by the laws of physics,
but determined by culture,
jamanism, and yoga, and some of these other things.
We are not than we are by physical law.
All right, Terence.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Terence McKenna.
Where are you, please?
Good morning, Mr. Bally in California.
Yes, sir.
I'd like to say first, I heard earlier on the news that scientists have discovered a substance...
When they take catnaps, if you recall, when they wake up, it's instantaneous,
and they're very alert.
They said that this will lead within the next two to three...
...sleeping pill for humans without side effects,
where when they wake up, they will wake up instantly and alert.
And we shall call it the catnap pill.
Fascinating.
Yes, sir.
All right.
Yes, sir.
Terence, sir.
Sure.
Fascinating, sir.
I'm really enjoying listening to you.
I have two questions.
The first one, that everyone has dreams.
I never, ever remembered, never recalled a dream.
About eight years ago, there was a scientific report that stated that there is approximately
five percent of the population of people that do not have dreams.
When I go to sleep, and I wanted to mention that, and then I'll give you my second question.
I'll listen to you.
The little slice of death.
Yes.
Terence?
The last question.
Mr. Bell had a guest, Ed Daines, remote viewer.
Uh-huh.
Oh, yes.
And his remote viewing, he could not see beyond 2000, was it 12, Mr. Bell?
Yep.
Now, and Christians refer to the rapture.
I'm just wondering what your take would be on all of this.
All right, all right, all right.
Very good.
Both good questions.
Let's tackle the easiest one first.
Dreams.
Uh, I'm not aware of a study that suggests that five percent of the population doesn't
dream.
Most of the people I've talked to suggest that everybody dreams.
Uh, maybe five percent don't remember them.
Uh, and we were talking about dreams, uh, earlier with respect to DMT.
So, uh, could there be people, in your opinion, Terence, who do not dream at all, therefore
have no DMT spikes at all?
Well, it's interesting.
I would have thought, as you suggested, that everybody dreams, but some people don't remember
it.
But it is true that I would guess one in twenty people don't respond to DMT.
Uh, this is very puzzling.
They simply do not respond to it.
And, of course, this has never been studied, because it's an underground drug.
But there may well be, uh, it may be that dreaming is something recently arriving in human evolution,
and not something we can just take for granted.
So then, are we to presume that those who do not dream have not sufficiently evolved?
Well, I wouldn't put it that way.
Too cruel, huh?
You know, everybody has different genetic strengths and differences.
Maybe they've got a hell of a backswing.
I don't know.
Or, or, uh, to be fair, perhaps we could suggest they are the ones who have evolved past the
need for it.
I want to be kind to them, Terence.
There you go.
All right.
Hold on, Terence.
Rest.
And when we come back, we'll tackle the second part of the question, which involves
remote viewing and the realm in which that occurs.
Fascinating stuff.
Terence McKenna.
Right back.
This is CBC.
Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
That's 702-727-1295.
First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222.
Now, here again, Art Bell.
Once again, here I am.
Good morning.
Terence McKenna is my guest.
And, oh, what a wide variety of reactions indeed we're receiving.
To some, Terence is a heretic.
He's dabbling in the black arts, witchcraft, magic, perhaps even the Antichrist.
To others, this kind of reaction, Art.
I'm a computer artist programmer.
Consider myself a very intelligent person.
I've been listening with absolute fascination.
I think that your guest is right on the mark.
It explains everything very succinctly.
It's brilliant.
Period.
That's Dave in Milwaukee.
And we'll get back to Terence in a moment.
Call Art Bell toll-free west of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
1-800-825-5033.
This is the CBC Radio Network.
That's who we are.
Just a quick promo.
Tomorrow night, Sean Morton at 11 o'clock.
Then, at midnight, Victor.
And Victor will be using a voice-changing device in describing his experience at Area 51 during the alien interrogation.
We have a worldwide exclusive on my website right now.
A second photograph, the second photograph, of the alien interrogation.
Whitley Streber and a few other select people have seen the entire thing with great emotional reaction.
But tomorrow night, you will hear Victor for an hour at midnight Pacific.
He will then be followed by Sean David Morton.
It should be quite an evening.
For now, and by the way, that photograph, you really should see it between now and tomorrow.
Don't miss it.
www.artbell.com.
And as you listen to Terence McKenna this night, also know that if you go there,
there is a link to the website where you can find materials on Terence McKenna.
Terence, here we are once again.
Are you there?
I am.
All right.
You are going to get a lot of web hits from this.
I hope your server can hold up.
So, levity is very together.
I think they can handle it.
Good.
We will find out, won't we?
Yeah, we will find out is right.
Wild Card Line, you are on the air with Terence McKenna.
Where are you, please?
This is Tony.
I am in Las Vegas.
Yes, Tony.
Good morning, Art and Terence.
How are you?
Good.
How are you?
I am doing pretty good.
You know, I want to ask you a couple of questions.
Do you think the reason why people generally, like remote viewers, for instance,
like psychic and don't predict stuff like the Oklahoma bombing or a bank robbery before
it happens, and do you think that the future of time machines might have something to do
with something that is very normal in nature, such as analogy and time travel is going to
come?
It used to be completely unrespectable to discuss it in the scientific literature.
Yes.
And if you run literature searches now, you will see over the past ten years this has gone
from unmentionable to quite recent.
Time travel in physics and science fiction by Nabum that definitely bring you up to speed
on the many, many approaches to time travel.
It's been known since 1948.
There was a paper by Kurt Gödel with a scheme for time travel that would, but he agrees,
if you could do that and then travel along its trance with vacuum tubes and now go to
the, have now very rude gold time travel, but I'm sure by 2012 we will have.
And do you suspect, Terence, that time travel will manifest itself from the physical, from
physics, or the time travel will be manifested from within?
I think we're going to find a way basically to obliterate the difference.
You know, it's only been five hundred years since some Europeans sailed over the horizon
and found the lost half of this planet.
That's right.
And I think the human imagination is as solid as the real estate you're standing on, Art,
and that when this is understood, there will be a kind of migration into the human imagination
and that this is, you know, time travel, space flight, immortality.
We have these terms coming.
Talking about it is inevitably incredibly cold.
It sure would do that.
Terence, a lighter question.
This comes from my wife at the beginning of the program.
Uh, she knew that, uh, you were the one to follow on, uh, in Timothy Leary's footsteps,
and so she thought she would ask you, uh, it is rumored, or it is let, uh, perhaps a legend,
uh, that Timothy had squirreled away like a treasure trove at some secret location,
25,000 hits of blue sandals.
Where is it?
Do you know where it is?
My goodness, Art, your wife follows these things.
Where is the blue sandals?
That's right.
Where's the X mark on the map?
Have you got the map?
Well, my lips are sealed.
When they open the tombs on Cydonia, I'll issue a press statement.
All right.
We'll leave it right there.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Terence McKenna.
Hello.
Um, hi.
Where are you, sir?
I am in San Francisco.
My name is Ryan.
All right, Ryan.
Um, it is, it is great to talk to, um, both of you.
Um, I am of the belief that, uh, two types of people in, uh, the world, basically like people
who have had psychedelic experiences, people who haven't, and the vast difference in their
ways of thinking once they have had a psychedelic experience.
That's why it's illegal.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
What is the direction?
I wanted to ask Terence, um, that he sees this, uh, state now where it is illegal and,
and why it is keeping, I think, uh, our civilization down to, um, its dreadful state.
Um, I think that, you know, if, if it could be, you know, like through mass awareness somehow,
um, uh, but get, get, I don't know, like, I don't know, I just wish it could be, uh, legal
so people, I think, could go to the next level that we are, you know, coming to sorts towards
so fast with, uh, I don't know, like things speeding up.
I mean, everybody feels that I believe, everybody that I know, um.
Did you say next level?
Yes.
You're calling from San Francisco, not Rancho Santa Fe, right?
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, so I, uh, let me say this.
I mean, I'm a bit of a pessimist on this subject because I take psychedelics so seriously.
I can't imagine them ever being really legal unless there's a total social transformation
because my analysis of it is the reason everybody from a high-tech industrial democracy
can get together and agree that psychedelics are a terrible thing.
Psychedelics being taken by large numbers of people.
the traditioning from the cultural myths, whatever they are.
It's no knock on any given society.
It's just about reality.
And culture is in the business of keeping you inside a set of pre-determined answers.
Well, based on that then, uh, adherence, perhaps, uh, uh, legalization day is 2012.
Well, there you go, Art.
There's an apocalypse and leave the heavens intact.
That day, that drug war ends.
Uh, first time caller line, you're on the air with Terence McKenna on the big island of Hawaii.
Hello.
Hi, Art.
Hi, where are you?
Hi, Art.
Okay.
It seems to be San Francisco night for the last two calls.
Well, I'm not surprised.
The CD that you have that you did with space-time continuum.
Oh, yeah, the alien dream time, yeah.
Yeah, which was very fun.
And, uh, I'm also familiar with Mr. Sheldrake's
to the 25% that you've been receiving because they're not familiar.
Well, and a lot of them never will be.
It'll, it'll go right past them, and they hear one thing only, and they see devils.
Right.
And, you know, that's okay.
Right.
I don't think with Satan that magical agenda or anything like that whatsoever.
Uh, my question to you is, uh, you're familiar with the writings of John Lilly, an isolation
tank center, and I regularly go down there with, with, how would I be able to locate
or the plants that come there from?
Now, I don't know that we can tell that on the air.
Well, we can say something.
We've already said it's right behind your eyebrows.
Right.
So that's one thing.
Uh-huh.
The only thing is, the real practical answer is go to the internet in terms of if you want
to locate plants in your ecosystem.
There you go.
But as Art says, uh, we've already pushed the envelope.
Yeah.
I don't think we can start peddling Schedule I substances on the air, nor would we wish to.
Nor, nor would you want me to, sir, because then you might not hear me anymore.
Right.
However, it's on the internet.
Look, it's a lot less dangerous than a lot of the other crap on the internet.
Uh, building missiles and bombs and all the rest of that.
So, uh...
Can you...
Well, can I ask you this?
Can you get...
Use a search...
Use a search engine.
Right.
All right?
All right.
Thanks a lot.
That's what they're there for.
Uh, wildcard line.
You're on the air with Terence McKenna.
Hello.
Wow.
I actually got through.
Yes, sir.
It seems that way.
Where are you?
I'm in Madison, Wisconsin.
All right.
Go right ahead.
Hey, about a year ago I talked to you and you were telling me that I was doing myself
a lot of harm by using psychedelics.
And I think Terence is just good proof that someone can turn out all right.
No, I didn't tell you that.
Oh.
I didn't tell you you were doing yourself a lot of harm.
Uh, I thought you did.
Nope.
No.
I wouldn't make that judgment.
That's something that only you can conclude.
I see.
But also, I want to make a suggestion for a guest.
I think Terence might be familiar with him, but have you ever heard of Douglas Rushkoff?
Oh, yeah.
I know Doug.
Yeah.
I've read many of his books.
Just what he means.
More publicity.
I think he's just a great guy.
All right.
Anything else?
Uh, yes.
Terence, I have a video called Alien Dreamtime.
Yeah?
I just want to say I really like it.
Oh, yeah.
Well, that's a thing I did a few years ago with a band called Space Time Continuum.
Yeah.
What was the essence of it, Terence?
Well, it was a rave in San Francisco, and I talked about, if you can imagine this, I
talked about the impact of psilocybin on human evolution to a backbeat.
This is something we haven't gotten into here, Art, but I have a whole other rap on mushrooms actually impact the breakthrough to self-reflecting human consciousness.
We'll have to save that one for...
I guess so.
Interesting.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Terence McKenna.
Good morning.
Good.
Search from the Psychedelic Experience by Tim, the Tibetan Book of the Dead.
Mm-hmm.
It's been talked about...
Good question.
Hours and hours, and tends to be, I think my own phrase is, essentially, I think LSD does
what a psychedelic, what most people, they cause you to review past memories, they not like that.
It seems to go beyond the personal that is alien on its own terms and doesn't have a lot of information in it about your psychology or your dilemmas.
Dramatic, paranormal dimensions, considering they're so easily accessed.
Thinking about...
It's interesting all this talk about the meditation on the nature of the universe as being like a geometric...
Geometrics.
I think, you know, there's the vastness of space we know about, but into the micro-dimension, and we see how much the subatomic world...
I mean, the world is an amazing and dynamic place.
It is.
And this is why I'm so down on ideologies, because I think they're a living universe.
Here's a, I believe, McKenna quote, quote, Western civilization is a loaded gun pointed at the head of this planet, unquote.
Yep.
Western civilization is a loaded gun pointed at the head of this planet.
And what I think I was referring to there was re-propaganda pollution of the assets.
We have practiced them over the next thousand years.
We're going to make the tragedy of such magnitude we don't even have a name for it.
Boy, I sure agree with that.
And then this, quote, LSD is a drug that occasionally causes psychotic behavior in persons that have not taken it.
Terence McKenna quoting Tim Leary in Los Angeles in 1991.
Accurate?
Well, I tried to give that quote to Tim, and he swore to me he'd never said that.
So it's sort of hanging out there in the air.
But it's a very funny quote, because I think it makes clear to people how agitated you can become by drugs you haven't taken.
And how often the people who have the most negative drug reactions are the people who didn't take the drug.
You are a heretic.
And just one last, as we head to the bottom of the hour, the mind rests on a foundation of chemical machinery.
Yes.
It rests on a foundation of chemical machinery.
It is not simply the product of chemical machinery any more than I am an automobile when I drive it.
All right.
Well, rest your chemical machine for a moment, and we'll come right back.
Terence McKenna from the Big Island of Hawaii is my guest.
We've got 30 more.
If you've got a question, we've got phone lines.
I'm Art Bell, and this is CBC.
I think to myself, blessed day, dark, safe at night.
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world.
Art Bell is taking calls on the wildcard line at 702-727-1295.
That's 702-727-1295.
First-time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222.
Now, here again, Art Bell.
Good morning.
I've always been so in love with that.
All right, Terrence McKenna, back in a moment.
My guest is Terrence McKenna.
Terrence, again, with respect to Timothy,
he, of course, as you well know, has been launched into orbit
with a number of other notables.
And I was just wondering, again, referencing that 25,000 hits of Blue Santos,
do you suppose it's possible that Timothy had them launched with himself
and that orbital decay will provide one great last acid rain at about 2012?
Well, he did want to prove that you can take it with you.
All right.
First-time caller of line, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna.
Hello.
Hi there.
Hi.
Where are you?
I'm in Nanaimo, B.C.
British Columbia, all right.
I first discovered you, Art, about three years ago,
and I was getting you very faintly at night from KEX in Oregon.
Yes.
Now we've got you on C-Fun in Vancouver, and we're all real happy about it.
Thank you.
You keep us up all night.
So, Terrence, I think all of your books, if not most of them,
and in True Hallucinations, you have a mushroom in the hut with you and your brother,
and he makes a sound that you describe, but I think nobody else that we're speaking before about.
And in doing so, I'd like to ask you if you've read The Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot.
I have read The Holographic Universe.
He was a friend of mine.
He unfortunately died a few years ago.
Resonance is the principle, almost magical, of action at a distance.
You know, you can play a certain open note on the cello,
and the piano, 50 feet across the room, will sound in the same octave.
So, resonance, we know it exists.
It's a musical phenomenon.
But what we need to realize, I think, is that resonance is built into time.
It's a kind of hologrammatic interference pattern.
And one of the things Art and I haven't discussed tonight about my time wave
is that it allows you to look at a certain period of time.
It was in resonance with seeing it, popular fad.
TMT, in our bodies, in our brain.
There's other things that you're talking about.
Well, these are the kinds of ideas that my brother and I were playing with
clear back in the early 70s.
The tragedy, one of the tragedies of the repression of psychedelics,
is not that made off limits that anybody put up a sign,
but it was psychologists who specialized in psychedelics,
could be noted, not given the plum jobs.
I could, mechanism of psychedelics, ordinary clinical studies.
It's simply that how do you do ordinary clinical studies on substances
that the government has made illegal?
Well, you don't.
It's impossible.
Of course you don't.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna.
Hi.
The last few years, and I find that I do serendipitous things, but unplanned.
Sure.
What do you think, well, there was one physicist, I can't think of his name.
He describes time as nature's way of keeping things from happening all at once.
That's exactly what Terrence just said we're going to come to at the zero point 2012.
Yeah.
Well, I wanted to get back into a little bit of physics,
but almost cosmic physics, having to do with black holes.
Okay.
And I wanted to ask you how you felt about the black hole being nature's way of the ultimate recycling device in the universe.
Well, it certainly is this.
Anything which falls into a black hole is deconstructed down to spin and angular momentum,
and I think all other information is stripped out of it.
And I think, you know, if there can be gravitational wells like that,
then there can also be the kind of novelty wells that I'm suggesting.
In other words...
Novelty wells?
Well, if statistical probability is not a very clear way of looking at the universe,
high improbability and comes...
You've got to get past it.
Think of it as a kind of landscape,
a place where some things are more probable in some places
and some things more probable in others.
You know, you look for water in the bottom of the valley.
You look for glaciers.
I think time and science in the West is described...
Well, in Newton, it's described as pure duration.
In other words, Einstein comes along and he says,
well, no, in the presence of massive gravitational objects,
space-time has a very smooth and slight curve.
Even at local, we discover the same seeing on scale.
Really, the time...
Or far in and far out of it, too.
Far in and far out of it.
So really, what it is, is it's like something like that.
It's a holographic matrix on many scales.
The organization of a galaxy, the organization of an atom,
these things, in my theory, are more linked in time
by an underlying arc of the universe.
You know, there's a big mystery now in cosmology,
the end of the matter.
For the galaxies to be hanging together under the laws of gravity,
90% of them must be missing.
No missing matter.
What's missing here are some laws.
And the laws of missing...
Well, could it be consciousness itself?
Well, it's this appetite for people in the universe participates in this.
The galaxies hang together as spirals
because it's the more novel thing to do
under the control of gravity.
Cosmic law of aggregation toward novelty that we've missed.
A way of measuring that, say,
with Fourier measurement of the brain itself or EEG?
Well, you could measure it in a Fourier matrix.
You could measure it in many different kinds of matrices.
I think that through a mathematical modeling of nature
in the last 20 years has been the discontent.
Oh, question.
I mean, time is a fact defined by a limited set of variables
and then iterated on the micro scale,
the macro scale, the human scale.
In the EEG world,
I do a lot of EEG spectral analysis and stuff.
They think I'm nuts.
Well, you thought nuts.
I said, well, if you want to buy my machine and operate,
this is how the universe is.
And when I speak in these terms,
it's in a big hall, you know?
Well, there's a lot of confusion in the sciences right now.
The complexity people are not talking to the dynamics people.
The poor materialists have all been crowded into biology.
Meanwhile, over in quantum physics,
and none of the news has reached psychology and sociology yet.
The house of science, Ray, and it's described nature,
they've now dispensed with all the easy sections,
and I think they're going to cause a revolution in the science
and a reformation of its methods,
or science is not going to be adequate to the game.
Well, perhaps after some period of anarchy.
Yes, well, that's what we're going through.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna.
Hello. Hello there.
Hi.
I'm a big admirer.
Where are you, sir?
I'm in St. Louis.
My name is Alex.
I'm 21 in St. Louis, Missouri.
All right.
Okay, and I wanted to start by actually commenting on a couple of things
that have been said earlier this evening.
One, I'm looking really forward to 2012,
and I'm looking really forward to being part of human evolution.
And I wanted to, you know,
as is, as things are,
and that's the planet as we have it,
and that should be plenty of knowledge as is,
you know, for us to understand everything.
And I'm psychedelic, and I'm not.
That's a very interesting point.
Terrence, let me ask you a question.
Do you contemplate the possibility
that your trip will be complete before 2012,
in other words, your personal trip,
that you will conclude at some point
that you've done as much as you need to do
and know what you need to know
and don't need to do it anymore?
I can imagine that.
What I would like to do is take my ideas
and turn them over to a general community
of interested people
and let the chips fall the way they may.
You know, science is the only human endeavor
where you actually get points for proving you're wrong.
And I love that approach.
I'm not interested in pontificating
or building dogma or founding a cult.
I'm interested in the ongoing adventure,
which is a collective adventure,
of generating ideas,
testing them against reality and the evidence,
discussing them with other people,
and then going on to build better ideas.
And I cannot believe that Time Wave Zero
is finished, or because I have finished with it.
I'm hoping that like how nature works...
Right, well, that would have been an arrogant attitude,
and I'm glad to see you're not displaying it.
Yes, I would like to see this thing broken
on the wheel of rationally advanced.
West of the Rockies, without a lot of time left,
you're on the air with Terence McKenna.
Hello.
Hi, this is Dan from Northern California.
Hi, Dan.
Hi, quick question, Terence.
In your book, Food of the Gods,
you talked about early proto-hominids
encountering psychotropic plants,
I guess psilocybin,
and that being sort of the catalyst
for this incredible leap of human consciousness.
What about the next step in our evolution?
Do you see it coming through
some sort of psychoactive substance
that we either have yet to develop or encounter?
Well, I think that we have encountered these things.
I think the enormous creativity
of the last half of the 20th century
is a direct consequence of psychedelic chemistry
and the breakdown of barriers between cultures.
In other words, most of the people
designing and building the Internet
have psychedelics in research,
medical research, architecture.
The dirty little seat of 20th century civilization,
at least in the last half,
is on a psychedelic base.
I've got one final question
I've got to pose to you
with regard to our discussion on the Internet.
I interviewed Charles Ostman,
an expert in nanotechnology.
He predicts that within the next few years
or even less,
we will begin to encounter
sentient entities within the Internet.
Artificial intelligences.
I believe that will happen.
Hans Morawic has written a lot
about this.
He would be a guy for your show, Art.
And he's talked about how
these AIs,
these artificial intelligences,
they learn 50,000 times faster
than a human being.
Well, you turn one loose
on the Internet
where it can talk
to all these computers,
it can make 50,000 years
of progress in one year.
Morawic thinks
we're not even going to know
what hit us
when these things come into being.
Listen, time as we must measure it
is coming to a close.
How many books have you written?
Five or six.
Invisible Landscape,
Magic Mushroom Grower.
Where do people get these?
Regular bookstores?
Oh, yeah.
They're Bantam and HarperCollins.
So any decent book can order them.
All right.
Suppose somebody would like
to send you email
on the Internet.
Now, be careful here.
Okay.
Here it comes.
Everybody.
That's well.
H-C-E-at-well.com.
Right.
That's so appropriate.
Here comes everybody indeed.
Are you able to answer
the majority of the communications?
I try.
It may be short.
I'm getting about 70 email messages a day.
What you're going to do to me, Art,
I can't even imagine.
But I will make a valiant try.
A conciseness count.
All right.
It does indeed.
And people should understand
that with the volume you're about to get,
it may be brief.
Terrence, what a pleasure it has been.
Again, we will do it someday.
If they don't toss you into the volcano first,
we'll do another interview one day.
How about it?
Well, I'm worried
they may toss you after this one.
But if you're there, I'll be here.
All right, Terrence.
Don, thank you, my friend.
Bye-bye.
Take care.
From the big island of Hawaii,
he's headed back up to his mountain.
And me, I may be headed for the volcano.
Who knows?
That's hceatwell.com.
This is the American Independent CBC Radio Network.
We'll be right back.
West of the Rockies at 1-800-618-8255.
1-800-618-8255.
East of the Rockies at 1-800-825-5033.
1-800-825-5033.
This is the CBC Radio Network.
All right, unregulated anarchy to follow.
In other words, open lines coming up.
I'm Art Bell, and I know that you're going to have some reaction to the last four hours.
All kinds of reaction.
We'll dive in in a moment.
All right, well, that earned it.
In answer to a question just posed to me in a chat room, is it Art or Ramona?
It's Art.
And yes, I am in a chat room right now on America Online.
And you're welcome to join us.
Welcome to join us.
You just get out on AOL and then enter a keyword, Art Bell.
Go click on keyword, and type in Art Bell.
It'll take you to the Periscope area.
And when you get in there, click on the Grassy Knoll chat room.
And, Boosh, you will be in there with other anarchistically bent people, including myself.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello there.
Hi, Art.
How you doing?
I'm doing.
This is Aubrey from San Diego.
Yes, sir.
I didn't get a chance to get through earlier.
I just wanted to relate an experience I had at one time using a hallucinogen.
Just during total concentration, I began to imagine molecules in the body, how they're circles,
and how they circle each other.
I went out to a planetary scale, how this moon circles the sun, circles the sun, where I felt
that circles were the key somehow to everything, the universe and everything.
I had that confirmed one time watching a program about bees and how bees, when they build their
hives, they build them in, well, they're hex-shaped, but hex are just circles attached to each other.
Did you know, sir, that, let me see, let me do this, did you know that about 25, excuse me, about 95% of all the honeybees in the world are gone?
I wasn't aware of that.
Give that one a little bit of thought in view of what you said, because that is a true fact.
Go on.
East of the Rockies, you are on the air.
Good morning.
Yes, this is Don from Pekin, Illinois.
Hi, Don.
Yeah, I think your guest is playing with fire and he's going to get burnt.
The devil stuff, right?
Well, yeah, it's because I think that it's what it's called, it's a pharmacy, taking mind-altering drugs.
That's what he's doing.
I mean, there's no question about it.
That's what he's doing.
And you try to conjure up demonic forces.
Well, now, wait a minute, I don't know that I agree with that.
In other words, we can have an argument about consuming pharmaceuticals of the sort discussed.
But I don't think that it automatically translates to the conjuring of demonic forces.
That comes from you or Terrence or whoever does it.
I don't think there's a given that when you do one, you're doing the other.
Well, I'd just like to say...
That is not to condone it.
Yeah, okay.
I just want to say that his idea and also the remote viewer's idea of this thing about this new age coming in 2012 or whatever, it's bunk.
Do you?
I just think it's bunk.
Really?
And the only time will tell.
If somebody came on and said that a very religious person were to come on and to say the Lord is going to return in 2012, would you be calling and saying, what, bunk?
Yes, I would, because no man knows that day and hour.
Well, so it is written.
And look, I respect your view and your faith.
And I don't wish to tangle with it.
I asked you a question.
You answered it fairly.
I don't tangle with anybody's faith.
And you certainly are welcome to yours.
And I suggest you hold it dear.
That may surprise you, or it may appear to you to exhibit too much tolerance.
I really don't know.
But I don't have a problem with your faith.
And I'm sorry, you have a problem when you listen to ideas that offend your faith.
If it is unshakable, then surely it is not so easily crumbled.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hi.
Hello.
How are you?
How am I?
You're doing pretty soon, Mike.
Reasonably well, I guess.
I'll catch the rest of it when it comes around at 3 o'clock.
Yeah.
I'm calling from Fairbanks.
Fairbanks, Alaska.
Yeah.
Bombing 45 degrees in Fairbanks.
Is it really?
Yes.
When you come to Alaska, don't forget to pack your mosquito repellent.
Yeah.
I know that during the summer, they have mosquitoes.
They're out already.
They actually have mosquitoes that rival some small model planes.
Yeah.
A bird.
You're a bird.
Right.
You're exactly right, and I'll bear that in mind.
Anything else?
Yeah.
I didn't get the show the other night at the time it was going on.
Was it a lady on the pet food?
Oh, my.
That was quite an interesting show.
Right.
But I can report that in Fairbanks, at least the veterinary clinic that I deal with, the
animals go to the borough animal shelter for cremation.
Well, I'll tell you one thing before I...
That I know for a fact because the vet has told me, and secondly...
Well, that's right.
You want to ask.
I think everybody needs to know you should ask.
The animal shelter takes the crematory, heats the building.
It goes into a heat pump under the building, and that's what heats the animal shelter.
All right.
I appreciate...
Oh, that's what heats...
So they use it as fuel, huh?
Great.
Well, I think I prefer that disposal method certainly to the one described the other night.
In other words, recirculation.
In other words, cannibalism.
But, you know, I really don't want to get back into that right now.
I'm going to try and avoid that.
That was rough to do.
First time caller line, you're on the air.
Hi.
Hi, yes.
This is Dave.
Dave from Tracy, California.
Hello, Dave.
Hi.
I was listening to the show tonight.
It was a great show.
Thank you.
And I was wondering if, you know, I'm kind of looking at it as far as other life being
out there, and does this necessarily mean that maybe, you know, with the NASA and the new
discoveries being made, would this, you know, basically null the thought that there is other
life out there, or are we just, you know...
Not at all.
This is all...
No, not at all.
Okay, great, yeah, because I've been reading a lot of things as far as life living in, you
know, deep in the ocean without direct, you know, sunlight.
We already know it exists.
Yeah, so I think...
We've documented that, of volcanic venting.
It exists on the energy given by volcanic venting.
So I'm thinking, you know, with the Europa and the moon or Europe...
There's probably life, like NASA says, and I'm not sure if they admit to it, but billions
of planets are about the universe, and I think that, I don't know, maybe this 2012, it just
might be an enlightenment to where we move to a...
Well, let me ask you a question, sir.
Yeah.
Who do you think is more likely to get there first, Terence McKenna or NASA?
I would have to say that Terence McKenna in the public view, but as far as NASA goes...
That's actually quite a serious question.
Well, I think NASA knows quite a bit more than what they do tell us, and I think that just
goes to show that they're letting out...
Yeah, maybe we've been asking NASA the wrong questions.
Well, yeah, that could be, and like I say, I'm sure they, back in the 70s when they looked
at the face on Mars, you know, that's just scientific curiosity has to take you from there, even
if you don't believe that it is a face on Mars or something.
You still have to wonder, you know, without a better picture, you know, what is it?
I appreciate your comments, sir.
Thank you.
How about the rest of you?
Who do you think is more likely to get there first, the Terence McKenna's or the NASA people?
That's like...
Well, I don't think I need to explain that question.
Wild Card Line, you're on the air.
Good morning.
There she is.
How come you always say that?
I don't know.
Yes, it's like a knee-jerk reaction.
Okay.
A pagan?
Didn't you tell me that you were Irish?
English, Irish, French, Indian.
Celtic.
You have a Celtic background?
Yeah.
Your ancestors, before Christianity came to Europe, were pagans?
Probably.
The old religion that was in place...
I'm not insulted by that.
Oh, no.
I consider you one of us now.
I don't know what my ancestors did.
Well, I do, because I looked it up.
And the old religion that they practice is the one that we practice in my household.
And that is a pagan.
You asked me.
I had to think about it.
Nobody's ever asked me before.
So, you thought about it, and now you have subscribed to it?
No.
I have always subscribed to it.
I've never really put it into words.
So, you thought about my words, and you have subscribed to them?
No.
I've thought about your words, and I can't get the definition.
Yes.
Which you consider to be accurate, and describes you.
No, I just made it up for you.
Well, then, what do you mean you made it up for me?
You made it up to please me?
No, I made it up because you asked me a question, and I wanted to give you an answer.
Well, I thought you just did, and it was affirmative, confirming that you say, yes, you are a pagan.
Yes.
So, what part of this have I not understood correctly?
You asked me what a pagan was.
Uh-huh.
And then, now, today, you're coming, and you're saying, I am indeed.
Right.
Are you not?
Okay.
Listen, our pagan ancestors also used a 13-month lunar calendar.
That's true.
Yeah.
And it's very interesting.
Each month, they ascribed a tree to it, and so I looked yours up.
And?
It's no surprise that you are the oak, the mighty oak.
Listen, in the personality profile, the first line was, the person who was born in the month of the oak is inclined to tell the truth without any regard to the consequences.
Yeah, that's me, all right.
I know it's you.
I know.
I thought, that is so you.
Oh, it is.
It is.
You're exactly right.
Thanks.
I really don't care.
I mean, I would just as soon be able to do whatever comes up and seems logical to do next.
Never not do it, if you follow me.
Oh, west of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hi.
Hi, Art.
This is John from Bonny Lake.
Hello, John.
Washington?
Yeah.
Yes.
Washington, you know that the Bible does say that every knee shall bow and shall confess that Christ is Lord.
Yep.
And I also would like to tell you that it's very old and the prophets of old fought against it.
Well, as some of your colleagues have already tried to tell you, that we do open ourselves up.
Ungainly forces, evil.
Yeah, but you open yourself up.
Why can't you imagine that you open yourself up to more than just that?
In other words, there may be a whole field of things out there, some of them very godlike, and some of them, as you imagine, evil.
Why can't you imagine that both may be lurking?
Because I do.
But the Holy Spirit is the good, and every other definition that follows suit.
I mean, you know, when Pharaoh and the old people of old stood up against God by using their mysticism of science,
I mean, that tells us right there.
Okay.
Well, I would not in a million years, sir, argue with you or try to convince you otherwise.
That is me.
And I'm happy to listen to you and your views, which I just did.
And I am sorry that you are threatened by discussion of anything that doesn't quite fit into that very narrow, specific belief system.
First time caller line, you're on the air.
Hi.
Art?
Yes.
How are you doing tonight?
Well, you're listening.
Oh, yeah.
Hey, I really liked your last guess.
He was great.
Yes, he was very good.
Yeah.
And, you know, he stirred something up in me.
I've experienced some time travel.
Well, he suggests that that really has not occurred yet.
If you heard his comment on time travel, it was.
In response to my question, if time travel, if there is time travel, then where are the time travelers?
His answer was that they will not be here until time travel is invented.
Yeah, but he's talking about physical.
No, he was not defining whether at that moment that it becomes possible it will be metaphysical or physical.
He wasn't defining that.
He was merely saying, when it becomes possible, through whatever means, we will then experience many, many time travelers.
It is the most interesting answer I've ever heard to that dilemma.
He never explored one aspect of time travel through our genetic code.
Well, you're right.
You certainly are correct.
As a matter of fact, the discussion we had the other night after the 2020 program may be centered right there.
In other words, when organs are transplanted from one person to another, there may be a genetic memory that is passed on and then fades as time goes on, as would seem to be evidenced by those who feel some special urgings or cravings, or believe they are for a period of time, part of another.
For some period of time, that may be a genetic transference.
A wild card line.
You're on the air.
Good morning.
Hi, Art.
How are you?
This is Mike Glendale, California.
Yes, sir.
You know, whether it be speculation, it's anything but NMC beyond 212 or 217.
2012, yeah.
And our conclusions are just our conclusions.
They don't mean anything.
Just like Bible prophecy and people that want to turn it into a fairy tale, it doesn't mean nothing.
And we have to look at these things.
We have to study them scientifically rather than this knee-jerk reaction to go off into the wild blue yonder with speculation.
And we have to stick with science, what we know, what we can hold onto, and not all of this other...
Well, I know, but we also at the same time do not want to be blind to the possibility that there are avenues other than the ones we have yet traveled down, if you follow me.
Follow me.
This is CBC.
He came down to Georgia.
He was looking for a soul to steal.
He was in a bag, but he was way behind.
He was willing to make a deal.
And he came across this young man sawing all the fiddle and playing it hot.
And the devil jumped up on a hicker stump and said, boy, let me tell you what.
I guess you didn't know it, but I am a fiddle player, too.
And if you dare to take a dare, I'll make a bet with you.
Now, you play a pretty good fiddle, boy, but give the devil his view.
I'll bet a fiddle of gold against your soul because I think I'm better.
The boy said, my name's Johnny, and it might be a sin.
But I'll take your bet you're going to regret because I'm the best as ever been.
Johnny, you're awesome, you're a boy player.
Art Bell is taking calls on the wild card line at 702-727-1295.
That's 702-727-1295.
First time callers can reach Art Bell at 702-727-1222.
702-727-1222.
Now, here again, Art Bell.
Once again, here I am.
Top of the morning, everybody.
Great to be here in these waning moments.
Flew by, didn't it?
Terence McKenna.
Ho, ho, ho, ho.
That was fun.
All right.
This is fun, too.
To be able to tell you about the best portable radio in the world.
All right.
Don't forget, tomorrow night, Sean David Morton will be here at 11 o'clock.
And then at the midnight hour, the witching hour here on the West Coast, we will have,
with a voice-changing device, Victor, if everything goes as planned.
Now, it doesn't always.
Victor is the person responsible for taking the video that is alleged to be that of an
alien creature being interrogated at Area 51 and smuggled out.
It will be a one-hour opportunity to ask Victor questions.
Now, that photograph, the second photograph, is on my website right now.
It is a worldwide exclusive.
It is nowhere else.
So, take a look at it.
If you can, between now and tomorrow night's show, take a look at the photograph.
It is what we will be discussing.
Actually, it will be a wider discussion.
But it is relevant in the sense that it's from the video that Victor smuggled out of Area 51.
My website, and, of course, you can jump to Terrence's from my website as well, is www.artbell.com.
And I noticed that it has just now gone over 2.5 million main page hits since the first of the year.
I think it's 2,504,832, as I read it right now.
So, there you are.
Anyway, make it on up there and take a look, for heaven's sakes.
I think you'll be, at the very least, intrigued.
And certainly, you don't want to miss Sean David Morton, nor do you want to miss Victor, actually, later tonight.
West of the Rockies, you're on the air. Hi.
Going once, going twice, go on.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hi, Art.
Hello.
I'm calling from Greenville, South Carolina.
Yes, ma'am.
And you go off the air here at 5 a.m., so I'm afraid I've missed the last hour and a half.
Well, it happens.
Yeah.
If you could put up with another Christian for just a moment.
Well, I can put up with him, period.
Don't know.
A couple of hours ago, when that one Christian called in and said that your guest was a disciple
of Satan, I'm sure you probably know that he did not mean that your guest was in a conspiracy
with Satan, knowingly perpetrating lies and deception.
Well, he made it sound that way.
I know.
The tone of the voice and so forth.
Right.
Well, what you probably understand.
By the way, I'm halfway through your book and I enjoy it very much.
The Quickening.
Yes.
I'm glad.
It will get better as you go.
Oh.
I'm in diseases and famine, so I've got earth changes and the end.
Oh, yes.
The end, indeed.
And you probably know that your book, The Quickening, in Matthew chapter 24, was prophesied
by Jesus Christ.
And he called it the beginnings of sorrows.
And when you look that up, it means birth pangs.
Sure.
And you know that when a woman is having a baby, the contractions come closer and closer
together.
I know all of that, yes.
Right.
I know that and I am not in denial with regard to it, nor do I disregard the probability that
that connection is the correct connection.
I simply explore others as well.
Right.
Which will cause me to be thrown in a volcano eventually.
No, but I think you will.
I'm hoping in my heart that you do come to a knowledge of the truth.
And what I wanted to say about the caller's tone of voice and a lot of, well, some Christians.
Now, I know some Christians are out there and they are militant.
And you said like if a UFO landed and an alien appeared, they would be there with their shotgun.
You know they would.
Right.
And Christ has, that has absolutely nothing to do with Christ.
Neither does lobbying in Congress, by the way.
Because if Christ wanted to, he could have lobbied the Roman government.
The only people he yelled at were the religious people.
Well, if, if, if, look.
If people who sinned and were bad were struck down first so all the rest of us could observe,
who do you think would be the first to go?
Ah.
After the lawyers.
I don't know.
Everybody, I guess.
That's right.
They're, they're, they're, they're, last man standing.
Wasn't there a movie, Last Man Standing?
West of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Hello.
Hey, Arpo.
Thanks a lot for taking my call.
Sure.
The D man from, uh, KPRO, uh, Central Coast, San Francisco County.
Yes, sir.
How are you, Jay?
Just fine.
Alright.
Uh, yeah, I, uh, I just wanted to make a point of, uh, my past.
I, what these guys describe, two different things.
I would never do them again, put it that way, because, uh, and I do have an open mind,
by the way.
It, uh, made things, uh...
Hallucinogenic.
Well, let's put it this way.
Yeah, look, that's a rational decision.
Nobody, uh, certainly not me.
Uh, I would not argue with your decision.
Uh, you tried it, and, uh, so, with experience, you're saying no thanks.
It, it damn scared the hell out of them, I'll tell you the truth, and, and, uh, I don't
know if I'd ever want to go back there again, because I'm still digging in.
You have a nice night.
You too, sir.
Thank you very much for the call.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Good morning.
Let me get my radio.
Yep.
Get that radio off.
That's pretty important.
Uh, this is JJ from Austin.
Yes, JJ.
Hi, Art.
I, uh, have two things.
First of all, the gentleman that called earlier, that said, uh, no man would know the date,
the day nor the hour.
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
But didn't say anything about the year.
Well, people, somebody in my mind know the year, you never know.
Well, uh, JJ, your feet are now dangling in the volcano.
What, what, what's point number two?
Uh, two is, um, I believe, uh, that the definition of a pagan is, um, a religion of tribal origin.
You, from, from ancient, you know, like, like, even Native Americans.
Well, that might be a little narrow.
I mean, it might fit, but I think that the definition of the pagan is a lot broader than
that, JJ.
First time caller line, you're on the air.
Am I?
Well, uh, I, I, I mean, we could have a discussion about it, but I said you were, so you're going
to have to try and believe me.
Okay.
This is Reed from Portland.
Uh, Reed, uh, speak into your phone like you mean it.
Heh.
I mean it, Art.
All right, no louder.
Louder.
I need, I need volume.
Okay.
Can you hear me?
Oh, now you're cooking.
Uh, someone called earlier, um, speaking about time travel.
I asked.
Well, you gave the impression that it was not possible at this point.
Well, he did say that, essentially.
Uh, he said that, um, it will not be possible, and, and, and, and, and once it does become
possible, then, uh, the time travelers will be here.
The proof that it is not now possible is that they are not.
He said something on the, uh, on the CD, uh, Alien Dream Time, the psychedelic experience
that brought you into a hyperspace, which is not the same.
Okay, but that, that's not quite to say you're traveling.
Uh, that is to say you are observing.
Uh, if you could imagine, uh, if you, if you, if you could imagine, um, you are not trapped,
imagine a highway, okay?
Uh, and, um, you're not on the highway, you're in a helicopter way up there, and you can see
cars five miles back, five miles ahead.
Uh, you're not traveling on the highway, you're observing the traffic upon it.
Exactly, but it would give the observer impression.
Okay, fair enough, but that is not to say that is what you are doing, and that, that is a very
important thing to delineate.
Well, those to the Rockies, you're on the air, hi.
Good morning, Art.
Good morning.
Mitch, the Magic Christian, calling you from Ventura, California.
Uh-huh.
Yeah, I, I just wanted to drop my two cents in on this, uh, uh, Christian versus, it seems
to be shaping up, Christian versus the lion of, uh, Terence McKenna.
Terence is a monster, and I mean that, in my lexicon, that's high praise.
Uh, he's right up there in the Troika with, uh, Richard C. Hoagland and, uh, Stan Dale,
as far as I'm concerned.
He's awesome.
Yeah.
And, uh, one of the things I wanted to get to before, I mean, just jump in, was how does
Ramona know about the, uh, the hits of acid?
Your wife sounds like she might be a little hipper than you, huh?
Use your imagination.
I mean, come on.
Anyway, concerning...
What do you think, we've been living here in a vacuum?
Yeah, well, okay.
Anyway, getting back to the, the, the condemnation thing on, on Terence, uh, you know, I, I want
you guys out there that are listening, my brothers and sisters in Christ, to, uh, concentrate
on the love of Jesus, you know?
There is now new, no condemnation, that kind of thing.
And, uh, I also want to talk about substances and things.
After an acid trip that I had back during my teens, I, I realized that there were no evil
things.
You know, you don't give a child a gun, right?
Because it's a dangerous, uh, object.
Yes.
And so you don't give people who are full of fear, uh, things like LSD or DMT or any
of the other psychedelic drugs, because they're going to have, like that caller a couple of
callers ago, a bad experiences.
You gotta be well-grounded to, uh, you know, what do you call it?
The ally?
That's a, that's a reasonable comment.
Thank you.
It really is, uh, one of the more reasonable comments you've ever made.
And, of course, we all know guns don't kill people.
Rarely do they leap on up off the table and spray, that's the popular phrase, spray bullets
about the room, um, putting holes through, uh, Christian-believing people.
They just don't do that.
It's the Christian-believing people and others who do that.
First-time caller line, you're on the air.
Hello.
Going, going, gone.
East of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Good morning.
Hi, Art.
It's, uh, Clint from Bismarck, North Dakota again.
Ah, good.
Welcome.
Um, looks like the news is getting a little closer to me here with all this, uh, Air Force
business you were talking about last night.
I noticed the, uh, news is all full of that kind of business again.
Everybody's saying, oh, she was, uh, mistreated and it's a travesty of justice and all that
kind of brouhaha.
I think she got away rather, um, lightly under the circumstances.
And the circumstances were not just that she, uh, committed adultery.
No.
The circumstances were lies and disobedience, uh, not following direct orders, and lots of
stuff the military doesn't like.
Yeah.
I, I really couldn't, uh, agree with the argument that, uh, well, everybody else does it.
That, that was the big thing.
I thought, you know, that never got me out of trouble when I was in grade school.
I certainly don't think it should get anybody out of trouble in the Air Force.
Well, it never got me out of trouble at home.
I mean, I had two sisters, and I tried that one out on my parents many times.
Yeah.
They were both Marines.
It never worked.
Uh, back to the, uh, topic at hand, I was worried about, uh, about that, uh, where they
said, uh, okay, if somebody invents a time machine in the future, then those time travelers
will appear here.
No.
No, it, well, Terence was suggesting that there will come a time when that machine will be
invented.
And from that moment on, you will see, uh, many tens of thousands or millions of time
travelers.
Sure, but, say, this moment at, in this place always exists, because that's where they would
travel to.
So, I mean, this moment would not exist without those time travelers coming back, because if
it did, then how could they travel here?
I guess the guy could really tie himself in the knots trying to think about that.
Yeah, you're trying to destroy me in the final minutes of the show, and I won't put up with
it.
I really hate to do that.
Have a good morning, Art.
You too.
Thank you very much.
Uh, west of the Rockies, you're on the air.
Good morning.
Oh, good morning.
Yes, Phil.
Possibilities.
What possibilities being new?
Oh, any possibilities of...
Possibilities are endless.
Absolutely endless.
Yes, sir.
One hundred percent, I agree.
The only limiting factor is that which sits on your shoulder.
Yes, indeed it is.
No, he's never been on my program before.
I mean, Terence has been around quite a while, actually, but it's a first visit to my program.
Definitely.
But I tend to do different things here.
I keep trying to tell people.
Oh, invite him back, by all means.
Food to the Gods.
A couple of his books I wrote down, Clark.
That's what he said.
Well, my idea is...
Except where there have been massive burnings, probably.
Volcano, things of the sort.
I just started listening to you recently.
Well, thanks for calling.
Well, I used LSD.
I gained from it.
I don't know.
How strong are your memories of it?
...with it.
Well...
I never got to the point that these gentlemen were at.
Regular journeys?
Yes, sir.
I never achieved that to...
Sure, and as I said to another fellow, that's what I consider to be a rational decision.
I wouldn't recommend anybody trying to buy it off of the streets, per se.
I found his magic...
Oh, you read that book?
No, sir.
I got...
Well, it's a very, very good point.
In other words, what is purchased off the street is utterly unknown, and unless you are
a chemist of great repute, and you can carefully analyze exactly what it is, then you have no
idea, no idea whatsoever what you're getting, and that probably would lead the inexperienced
but eager to consider natural substances that is grown directly without modification from
the earth.
First-time caller on the line.
You're on the air.
Hello.
Hi.
Art.
I just wanted to call in because I'm a little bit troubled that all of the people seem to
be calling in in favor of your guest, who I really enjoyed earlier.
Well, I would say it's about 50-50 in the last hour if you count the people who said
he was the devil.
Right.
But I guess what concerns me is that everyone who seems to be calling in in favor of him
are people who have either taken or want to take psychedelics.
Well, that would be natural, though, wouldn't it?
I mean, he is probably Tim Leary's successor, so it would follow that they would probably
be predisposed to agreeing with him.
Well, I just wanted to say that I've never taken any drugs at all, and I found his comments
to be very interesting and very enlightening.
Well, look, he was obviously extremely literate, extremely articulate.
Sure.
And you can argue with the premises presented, but I don't think you can make a case that
his brain has been frizzed.
Right.
Well, I think...
I mean, you could, but...
Yeah, I mean, I think he just had some very interesting ideas.
Regardless, I hate to see mind-expanding ideas always linked to, not always linked, but,
you know, in this case, so frequently linked to the use of psychedelics, because, you know,
there are other things that you can do to expand your mind and having new experiences
and things like that as well.
I would say, in fact, the great majority of my guests who have talked of similar spiritual
things have made very strong claims that the very same things can be achieved without the
use of psychedelics.
This was merely another view.
Well, thanks for having him on.
It was very interesting.
It was.
Now, listen, you get the honors tonight, because we're out of time, so...
Uh-oh.
In your own words, sir.
I'm sorry.
I don't know what you're asking.
Oh.
Say goodnight.
Well, goodnight to everybody.
Thanks for having me on.
See?
That's how it's done.
It's that simple.
I'm Art Bell.
See you tomorrow night.
Goodnight all.