Blake C. Erickson Interview

Ethnobotany is the study, in the simplest term, it's the study of plants and people.

It's the study of the way that people interact with the plants,

usually in traditional societies, but not necessarily.

So all the things that people use plants for, ranging from medicine to construction materials

to textiles to foods, you know, is all legitimate material for ethnobotanists to study.

And ethnopharmacology is a little more restricted because ethnopharmacology focuses on,

I mean, the formal definition of ethnopharmacology is the interdisciplinary scientific study

of biologically accurate...

...substances used or observed by indigenous people.

So there are a few caveats.

For one thing, it's not restricted to plants, right?

A lot of what ethnopharmacology studies is, might be things that come from animals.

Obviously, a lot of it has to do with the study of plant medicines or things used as medicines.

But also, toxins are a good part of it.

You know, the study of arrow poisons, for example, is certainly part of ethnopharmacology.

So ethnopharmacology, as the name implies, the ethno part is about people,

and the pharmacology side is about pharmacology and the study of drugs.

So it's interdisciplinary.

It focuses on all the ways in which people interact with drugs and toxins, you know.

So it includes everything from...

...pharmacology to chemistry to anthropology to, you know, medicine, public health, you name it, toxicology, all of that.

It relates to shamanism because in these indigenous or traditional cultures,

usually the shaman is the person with the knowledge of the plants that are psychoactive

or medicinal, he's the person, he or she is the person that knows how to use these things.

They're the keepers of the plant knowledge, in a way, so that's...

I mean, they're more than herbalists, but they're also the herbalists.

They're the ones that know their medicines and how to use them for whatever purposes, spiritual and medical as well.

In shamanism, and one of the things that distinguishes it from mere herbalism,

is that the shaman is a specialist in altered states of consciousness.

The famous anthropologist and scholar, Merci Eliade, calls shamanism the archaic techniques of ecstasy.

And in shamanism, the shaman deliberately...

is a master of various techniques for inducing altered states of consciousness,

which may involve the use of psychoactive drugs, but not always.

There are other techniques, too, that can be used, like frenzied drumming, or dancing, or flagellation,

or extremes of, you know, physical stresses, to induce altered states.

But the idea is to deliberately induce an altered state,

and the shaman...

goes on a journey.

This is the primary mode throughout the world,

that the shaman journeys to the center of the world,

which may be visualized as a tree.

It's often visualized as a tree, or some kind of axis.

But that axis unites the upper world, the middle world, our ordinary world, and the lower world.

And the shaman is a person...

who is able to navigate these realms,

and, you know, knows how to move around in these realms,

and actually retrieve information and come back.

Or, a lot of what the shaman does is curing.

It's related to curing, and in shamanic traditions,

the understanding often is that, you know, illness is caused by loss of soul.

And that the soul has wandered off,

and is out in these realms.

And the shaman has to go and find the soul,

and restore it to the person's body,

and then restore, you know, restore...

cure the illness that way.

Whether the illness is physical or mental.

And there's not really a distinction always made.

You know, in fact, all illness in these traditions is usually understood

to basically be due to witchcraft,

or, you know, some sort of malevolent influence,

even physical illness.

So the shaman is a specialist in this technique.

And they are often a specialist in the use of plants

for inducing altered states of consciousness.

That's the realm.

So in some ways, the shaman fulfills a function for the society,

is in that he or she,

is the person with one foot in both worlds.

He's a foot in the real world of everyday human affairs,

and the world of spirits and the supernatural.

So they can be a conduit of communication between those worlds.

And in some ways, that's like a priest, you know.

A priest represents the people to the realm of spirits and so on.

But the shaman actually goes to these worlds.

And not just talks to these people,

to these entities or whatever,

but moves in these dimensions,

which are very real experimentally for the shaman,

and for the people.

And so curing is part of it,

but also other things of concern to the community.

Where to look for game, for example.

Where to find, when to plant the crops.

All of this stuff comes from this realm

of sort of supernatural knowledge.

So the shaman is a wise person,

the keeper of knowledge,

and the connection to knowledge.

So that's kind of a long-winded explanation.

But the shaman has, you know,

wears many hats in some ways.

He or she fulfills multiple functions for the society.

So these psychedelics and other types of

what you might call psychoactive,

psychoactive molecules are found widespread in plants,

and even animals, and fungi, and the whole thing.

I mean, they're all over the place.

So I think in one sense, that seems remarkable to us.

But in another sense, we shouldn't really be surprised,

because this is a reflection simply of biochemical evolution.

I mean, we are evolved from the same ultimate origins

that the plants are and the fungi are.

So the fact that there are molecules in these organisms

that mimic neurotransmitters

and interact with neurotransmitter receptors and so on

is just to be expected, in a sense,

in that, you know, most of these psychoactive molecules

are, you know, one or two steps from amino acids

The alkaloids generally come from amino acids,

and especially the example of DMT,

where, you know, tryptophan is an amino acid,

and it's in all organisms because it goes into proteins.

It's one of the amino acids that goes into proteins.

But two enzymatic steps, two steps away from tryptophan,

is DMT.

And the enzymes that...

do that conversion are pretty much found in any cell.

So it's not too surprising, in a way,

that DMT is very widespread,

because it's only two steps away

from what they call primary metabolism.

In other words, the metabolism that we share with everything.

The fact that these neurotransmitter-like substances

are out there in the plant kingdom,

or the fungal kingdom, or even the animal kingdom,

is not as remarkable as the fact that, you know,

indigenous people living immersed

in these highly chemically diverse ecologies

have become, you know, very clever

about discovering these things

and figuring out how to use them,

you know, in their shamanic traditions.

And this is...

You know, this in some way is more remarkable

than the fact that the compounds are there.

It's that people have evinced a lot of ingenuity

in digging these things out

and figuring out how to make them active.

Like, for example, again, DMT

is a very powerful psychedelic,

but it is not orally active.

So you can eat plants all day that contain DMT

and nothing will happen,

because it's inactivated,

as you know, by an enzyme in the gut

called monoamine oxidase.

And...

But indigenous people have figured out

that there are also plants

that contain monoamine oxidase inhibitors.

And they've figured it out

through trial and error or whatever

that if you combine a plant containing DMT

with a plant containing a monoamine oxidase

and MAO inhibitor,

then it becomes very active.

And how did they figure that out?

Was it through trial and error?

Not so clear, you know,

because there are many plants out there

and many potential combinations.

So how did they figure that out?

Nobody really knows.

You know, but the point is

they were, you know, motivated enough

to seek out these altered states

that they actually did figure out.

They approached it, I don't know how,

either accidentally, which seems unlikely,

or through trial and error,

which seems also unlikely.

Who knows how they figured it?

Maybe animals do this thing.

Maybe they watch animals.

I mean, what they will tell you,

as you know, in South American traditions,

you say, how did you figure out

how to combine, you know,

Banisteriopsis bark,

which contains the MAO inhibitor,

the leaves of chacruna,

which contains DMT,

and come up with this very powerful

orally active psychedelic.

They will say, well, the plants,

the plants told us how to do this.

And, you know, as a Westerner,

you just scratch your head and you say,

well, that's ridiculous, you know,

I've never heard such a ridiculous thing.

But they'll always tell you that,

you know, so who knows?

You know, there does,

seem to be,

in some way,

I mean, the shamans

and other people that use these things

will say, you know,

half the reason they take these,

it's not just to induce altered states,

it's to learn things.

And a lot of what they

like to learn,

a lot of the reason they take them

is to learn about the properties of plants.

You know, what they're good for,

what their biodynamic properties are,

what they might be used for,

what they might be used to treat or cure,

or what their psychoactive effects are.

So a lot of what motivates the shaman,

I think,

in their relationship to nature,

is the same thing that motivates scientists.

The shaman is a kind of scientist.

It's curiosity.

You know,

they want to know,

what does this plant do?

You know,

and what does this plant do

if I combine it with this plant?

It's a very experimental approach

that they're taking to all this.

And they do learn.

And I think

that

one thing that shaman do,

and again,

if you look at the ayahuasca tradition,

one thing that they do is

in exploring these altered states,

they have become very adept

at sort of monitoring

their own

inner landscape

and their own physiological state.

So,

you know,

they sort of have a baseline.

You know,

they know what the baseline

state of ayahuasca is.

And then if they put another plant in there,

in that mix

that they want to investigate,

they can see how does that move

the experience away from baseline.

So in some ways,

they can acquaint themselves

with what that plant might do.

It's a sort of hands-on,

direct, experimental way.

And

I think

that that's a lot of

what goes on

in this kind of shamanism.

This is how this pharmacopoeia

gradually built up over,

you know, centuries.

Essentially through experimentation,

through experimental,

like empirical

bioassay,

if you will.

Well, I do.

Actually, I do personally

think that it did.

And I think that

a lot of what

is coming out of

sort of the frontiers of

neuroscience

right now supports that.

You know, we now have

these brain imaging tools

and these sophisticated tools

so we can look at people,

what's happening in their brains

when they are in

profoundly altered states of consciousness,

either on psychedelics

or in, you know,

in mystical states

of various types,

or deep meditation.

We can actually see

what part of the brain

is lighting up in a word

and mediating these things.

So I think, I mean,

just last week,

there was a whole new study

published about how they've located

what they're calling

the transcendent states.

You know, so the brain

is architecturally

and physiologically set up

to experience

these transcendent states.

And certain drugs

will activate them

and certain practices

will activate these brain areas

and there's a lot of overlap,

for example,

between, you know,

the areas of the brain that are activated

by psilocybin, which is one of the ones

that we're talking about,

deep meditation,

you know, there's a lot of overlap.

So I do think that,

you know,

that the spiritual experience

is kind of built into

the human brain.

And the larger question is,

or the more interesting question is,

why should it be?

And what is the use of that?

What is the evolution

of the brain?

What is the evolutionary advantage

of being able to have

transcendent experiences?

Or is there one?

This whole issue about

what language is

and the association,

you know,

of sound and symbol

and all that,

which is the basis of language.

And language, more than anything else,

probably is what sets us apart

from everything else in nature.

I mean, we are immersed

in an ocean of language,

an ocean of symbols,

where symbols

are linked to sounds.

And, you know,

I can sit here

and utter meaningless sounds,

essentially, inherently

meaningless sounds,

but they make sense to you

because they evoke

meaningful mental pictures.

And this is the thing,

you know, and the brain

has the ability

to experience synesthesia.

And synesthesia is one of these

functions that,

you know,

the translation of one sensory modality

into another.

So, you can, you know,

hear colors

and that sort of thing,

or see sounds

and that sort of thing.

And that is also the basis

of language when you think about it.

And psychedelics

are interesting in this respect

because psychedelics

are one of the few ways

that you can reliably

induce these synesthetic experiences.

It is very common

to have synesthesia,

you know, on psychedelics.

Some people are genetically

endowed with synesthesia.

And they just experience

that all the time.

I have the strong intuition

that children

below a certain age

are probably spontaneously

synesthetic all the time

because the

brain structures

that separate these

different sensory modalities

are not set in place yet.

So, it is very common

for children to have

synesthetic experiences.

And that is a part of brain development

and growing up and learning

to speak and all that.

If you look at genetically

synesthetic

people, about 1 in 100

persons is genetically

synesthetic, meaning it happens

spontaneously to them.

If you look at those people,

it is very

common, it is usually

the rule that it is very closely

linked to

their apprehension of words

and numbers.

And they will say, you know,

the number 13 is

smooth and hard

and dark blue

and for them

it is absolutely

an apprehendable thing

that it is like that.

Or the letter A

is purple polka dots.

They are not

making this up.

This is real for them.

So it says something about

the way that the

centers in our brain

that process meaning,

process language, work

and how they tie into

sensory pathways.

You know,

if you think about the fact

that psychedelics can evoke

this synesthesia rather easily,

I mean, you don't have to go very far

before you can,

you know, you can imagine

a hungry primate,

a language-less primate

out there

foraging on mushrooms

or whatever, accidentally

or whatever, or deliberately,

but first initially accidentally

they take them.

Mushrooms are a good candidate

because they don't require any processing.

No MAO inhibitors

required, you just

reach down and eat them up

and it spontaneously

elicits this thing

and it very easily triggers

synesthesia.

And, you know, you can

imagine

you know, the person

finds this is why chanting

and singing and all this has

so much to do with shamanism

because it modulates the visions.

So that person

can, you know, start

shouting and singing and chanting

and suddenly what's happening

behind the eyes

goes crazy, right?

And then they pick up a stick

and start beating a hollow log

and hey, that's even cooler,

you know, they bring in rhythm.

Well, so they've just invented

language, music, musical instruments

all that stuff

poetry

you know,

all in one productive

session.

And it makes you feel good.

It induces ecstasy.

So you only have to do it

spontaneously

or accidentally a couple of times

and then you

get it, you know, and then you sort of say

hey, that was great, that made me

feel good. So then you go back

to repeat it.

knows about the way to interpret these

myths, you know,

but in

the forbidden fruit

it was the tree of knowledge.

Right? It wasn't

I mean, it was knowledge that was

forbidden. It was

you know,

I mean, curiosity

was not

encouraged. We were

you know, what was encouraged

or what we were more or less

commanded to do

in the context of this myth

was to remain

not really human.

You know, to remain like animals.

Innocent. And to not

know about

things like our own individuality

and

things like death, you know.

And that was the thing, I think

you know, and at some point

I mean, the whole

thing about

Adam and Eve and the tree of knowledge

is of course a myth

but it's really about

at what point did we

separate from

did we

achieve self reflection?

Right? This is what animals

don't have. Well,

by and large, I mean

there are evidence that maybe

some do to some extent, but

I think two things. The idea

that, you know, you have an eye

sense, a sense of an eye

and the sense of

probably knowledge

of, or the intuition

of your own mortality.

That's the loss of innocence.

I think that in

the context of fundamentalist

Christianity

thinking

is not encouraged.

You know, I mean

that's what they're trying to get away from.

That's the whole thing, you know.

You lost innocence.

You know, you

lost innocence because

you asked too many questions

and you thought too much

and, you know, you questioned

things, right? And this is

what Christianity discourages,

at least the fundamentalist type.

Christianity is

sort of foisting

the

notion on people

that, you know,

there are simple answers

to complex

questions. I mean, I call it

simple answers for simple people.