With Art Bell 98-03-19 - The Psychedelic Experience

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This is the CDC Radio Network.

From the high desert and the great American Southwest, I bid you all good evening or good morning as the case may be.

Across all these many prolific time zones from the Tahitian and Hawaiian Island chains in the west.

Well, I hear it's kind of dry, actually.

El Nino dry.

Eastward all the way to the Caribbean, across all the rest of us.

South into South America, north all the way to the pole, and worldwide on the Internet.

This is Coast to Coast AM, and I'm Art Bell.

Hello.

Well, it'll be an interesting evening.

We'll see you next time.

Terence is a brilliant man who has a lot to say, not just about psychedelic pharmaceuticals.

Might be a misnomer, huh?

But he also is fascinated with one of my chief fascinations, and that is time.

And so we will talk to Terence about that and many other things, and just sort of, I guess, have fun with him.

Terence is a fun guy.

He's got a new – since he's out in the middle of nowhere, being in the middle of nowhere these days is not as bad as it used to be,

but it's still getting there.

So he has some kind of new connection that goes from his place by radio to some certain point,

and then with a one megabyte connection to the Internet, sort of a telephone of the same – we'll see next hour.

I did talk to him earlier, and at that time it sounded pretty good, I might say.

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West of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico, 1-800-618-8255, 1-800-618-8255.

Now again, here's Art Bell.

Thank you, everybody.

Coming up in a moment, through the strangest hookup you've ever heard, is one Terence McKenna.

Terence is probably the successor to Tim Leary.

And actually, it has long been rumored – we talked about this last time we had Terence on –

that somewhere out there, there are 25,000 hits of Blue Sandals in a stash that Tim had,

and that we all believe Terence knows about.

Now, in the next few hours, during the course of the show, Terence will utter some clue key words.

Now, you won't know when these clue key words are coming up, but if you – were you to be able to interpret them properly,

they would lead you directly to these 25,000 hits of Blue Sandals.

So, see, you've got to listen carefully.

All right.

Now comes Terence McKenna from the Hawaiian Islands, and he comes in a very interesting way.

Terence, welcome to the program.

It's a pleasure to talk to you again, Art.

How are you?

I am fine.

Now, Terence, let us begin.

Where are you in the islands?

I mean, not exactly, but sort of roughly.

I'm on the big island of Hawaii on the Kona side.

All right.

You are coming to us actually from your home.

The last time we did an interview, you had to, like, go to somebody's house or something to do the interview,

leave your own home, because you're so remote that all you've got is a cell phone.

And so that's how you did the show last time, right?

All right.

This time we're using a different setup.

It has a tiny little glitch in it every now and then.

And so tell people how it is you're reaching me.

I mean, that's an interesting story all by itself.

I'm reaching you on a spread-spectrum radio circuit that's a one-megabyte piggyback,

one-megabyte company out here, building a back to anyone with line of sight so they can afford it.

Holy mackerel.

Yeah, it's amazing.

That is absolutely amazing.

And so, in other words, not only are you simultaneously, through this radio connection, connected to the Internet,

but you're also then able to use a telephone through the Internet, which is how you're talking to me right now.

Yes, I'm talking to you and moving around on the net at the same time.

And it's the same speed in and out for me, which is a blinding one megabyte.

So it's where I hope everybody is by company showed up.

He licensed this technology from the Defense Department.

They demonstrated it for him, and he said, look, I'll buy as many of these modems as you think going.

Well, at your location, at your very remote location, what's it like?

Do you have power there?

Do you have, well, obviously you have to have power, I guess.

On solar, to get all my information is what makes my life possible, because otherwise...

I'll tell you, you're ahead of most of us on the mainland who suffer with horrendously slow 28-8, including mine at best.

And here you are.

But it's so neat that you're able to do that these days.

Really excellent.

So describe your surroundings.

I mean, do you have neighbors?

I live up on the slopes of the world's largest volcano, which is Mauna Loa.

I live five-acre people, a kind of community.

Do you find yourself fighting madness, Terrence?

Well, that was all.

You don't have to do chemicals or into, I remember reading, you know, prisoners who would be by themselves for years at a time in Vietnam, North Vietnam, during the Second World War,

and they would devise methods of going into their own mind and fantasizing and doing all kinds of things that kept them sane.

Well, I've got three things to do, and I get about a...

And then every once in a while, I pack up and go off and give lectures and travel in airliners and go to par 14 weeks out of the year.

That's what I'm...

The inclination is to be a hermit, and I don't think I mentioned it, Ian.

I don't think I could so much effort to put it together.

To do this at the beginning of the interview, and it might be that there's a person or two out there that doesn't know who Terrence McKenna is.

So, if you were to give me a short version of your own bio, your life, what you've done, who you are, what would you say?

I was born in the 60s, born in 1946, went to Berkeley as a freshman in 1965, did the India Circuit, did the LSD Circuit, went to South America.

I've written a number of books about shamanism and hallucinogens, and I've sort of evolved a unique...

I've done some kind of gadfly, done a lot of stuff with young people, CDs, and I comment on the culture.

I'm studying the culture, and as you know, Art, you and I share an idea, but not everybody does,

which is that the world is moving at an ever-great redefining of all.

I get to be a cultural commentator and gadfly.

Let me ask you about any new insights you might have since we last talked about that.

You're darn right we share that view exactly.

I'm not a prophet.

Maybe you are.

I don't think you are, but we both know something is coming.

Do you have any late thoughts on what it might be or when it might be?

Well, you know, I don't think you and I have talked for maybe 10 months or a year.

I can...

Short-term memory damage, so you're supposed to remember something.

But in the last month, we've had the announcement of the apparent discovery of a new anti-gravitation.

The announcement...

I don't know about that.

What are...

Which allows for the formation of this...

But you must have gone through the 24-hour period and they...

Yeah, I mean, that kind of thing is right down my alley.

Sure, well, so for 24 hours, we all had to look at that.

And then, you know, they...

I...

You and I talked that some teleportation stuff happened.

IBM, I believe it was.

IBM and at a laboratory in Austria, this guy, Anton Zellinger, yeah.

The technologies which in science fiction lay out there not right between this and nanotechnology

and neural metal intelligence of some sort will emerge out of the human technological...

And be as different from us as we are from termites.

It's funny that...

Terrence, it's funny you should mention that.

Let me ask you this.

I, too, the processing speeds and storage are increasing exponentially.

It's amazing.

I mean, we're talking about a home processor of 1,000 megahertz pretty soon.

And I believe, Terrence, I don't know if you heard the first hour of the show,

but I think that soon we are going to have a sentient computer.

And you know what I wondered?

I wondered if a computer became sentient.

We've always assumed it would say something like, I'm here.

In other words, I'm conscious.

I'm sentient.

But I thought, you know, maybe it wouldn't do that.

Maybe it would become sentient and simply not announce it right away

and sort of lay back and examine the situation.

And if this sentient computer was in a backbone position on the Internet

and it decided that we weren't running things as we should,

then there's every possibility that...

Well, I've got a little article here which suggests a fellow wrote a book called Slaves of the Machines.

In other words, it might decide we're not doing things the right way

and that it would do things logically for us the right way.

What do you think?

Well, I suppose, you know, the Internet is the natural place for the AI, the artificial intelligence, to be born.

And as you mentioned, it learns 50,000 times faster than a human being.

And the Internet, all parts of it are interconnected to each other.

And I agree, it would be a very wise strategy.

It's also true that more than most people realize, huge segments of today's world are all how much petroleum is at sea in the pipelines at any given moment,

how much electric they want to design a new...

If you design it, it's already a generation away from the machines.

I think it's recognized in mind could do the telephone lines and across the case.

It's already taken over, Art.

No, perhaps it has.

And it's listening, especially to you with your one megabyte connection.

He can tell if you've been good or bad.

And moreover, Terrence, think about this.

I'm on Real Audio, the Audio Net, worldwide, so it's listening to me every night, too.

And if it's sitting out there thinking about all of this, which it might be,

then the question would be, if we did get a sentient computer and it thought about us, observed us,

digested us, intellectually, of course, what would it conclude?

And then the next question is, what do you think it would do?

We'll be right back.

Joe has a very simple title, Myrna, which is quite appropriate because I'm the host and I'm Myrna.

I'm also a counselor, a teacher, and a parent.

On Myrna, we talk about the big important stuff and the little unimportant stuff.

We talk about what I want to talk about and what you want to talk about.

But mostly, we just have a good time.

And I'll be talking with you on the next Myrna, here on Talk Radio Network.

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Hey, this is Alexi Lalas of the New England Revolution with today's eco-quiz.

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Those containers are highly recyclable and can be made back into new glass containers with little loss of glass,

saving raw materials as well as energy in the process.

Do you know how much fuel oil is saved by recycling a single ton of glass?

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Recycling just one ton of glass saves nine gallons of fuel oil.

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The energy savings were definitely substantial.

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Recycle.

It works.

Alexi Lalas on eco-quiz.

Eco-quiz is a public service of the National Recycling Coalition and the Steel Recycling Institute.

For information about where to recycle steel cans in your area, call 1-800-YES-1-CAN.

Some women look to their hearts for courage and to their souls for strength.

These women earn the right to become part of an elite group that change their lives forever.

I wanted to be something special.

I didn't want to be like everybody else.

I always looked at the poster before I went to boot camp.

The Marine standing there with a sword in front of his face.

And I was like, man, he's sharp.

To me, that means the sharpness of the mind of a Marine.

I had to work really hard at boot camp.

The enemy was saying, Jennifer, you can't do it.

Don't give up.

You came here to be a Marine.

You're not leaving without being one.

You have to go through things, a boot camp that most people can never go through.

Ready, step.

You have to have heart and courage to be a Marine.

It took everything I had.

I gained the self-respect in knowing that I can make it and the courage to do things that

I would never have done before.

People look at you and they say, you're a Marine.

Wow.

I think that it's a proud feeling, that pride you'll never lose.

I don't know where I would be now if I were in a Marine.

It was hard.

My first month there, I cried.

Nobody helped me get through the camp.

I didn't.

And it's good to know that I'm going somewhere now.

It instills a lot of self-respect.

It makes you feel good about yourself.

It really does.

You have to have it in your heart.

You want to do.

And you can tell them had it in your heart.

It didn't.

Who wore the uniform of pride in your day.

It just makes you feel so awesome that you accomplished it.

And you are a Marine.

And that you are one of the leaders.

What's that?

The big team.

That's it.

Then and there, that day that they say to SNF, you know that you are a Marine.

That you are one of the elite.

Maybe you can be one of us.

The few.

The proud.

The Marines.

Call 1-800-MARINES.

When I clocked that parade deck and they played the Marine hymn, that was the proudest moment

in my life.

On Auto Talk, David and Alan try to give quality advice in spite of sometimes guest host Bart

who gets carried away when women truck drivers call.

You know why I like this woman already.

She drives a truck.

Are you single by any chance?

Unfortunately, yes.

Well, turn your phone number to this guy and I'll be coming to see you.

But can you drive a ten-wheeler?

Yeah.

That's a minimum.

I've got a requirement, see?

Bart, how come your face is so low?

I'm in love.

Well, I mean, you know, the truck runs good when that gauge starts jumping around.

That's my heartbeat, Susan.

Let me ask this woman one thing.

Susan, are you interested in being part of my calendar I'm putting together?

I don't think so.

I need a picture of you.

Are you going to make a man cry?

Yeah, why not?

Auto Talk Saturday morning with David, Alan, and sometimes Bart.

Susan, let me just say one thing.

I love you.

Speaking of webpages, you will really, really, really enjoy Terrence's webpage.

And, of course, we have a link, so you can go to my website at www.artbell.com and scroll

down until you see the name Terrence McKenna.

Click on it and you'll go to his website and you will be on quite an adventure indeed.

Now, before we leave the idea of computers taking over the world and enslaving us or whatever,

if this computer, a sentient computer, were to be, for a period of time, examining mankind,

looking at all we're doing, all we're doing, do you think, Terrence, you know when you have

a problem on your computer and you hit alternate control delete, you get a little message that

comes up and say, would you like to end the task?

And if you say yes, it closes everything, boom, down she goes.

And so, what do you think this sentient computer might do after a close and careful examination

of mankind?

Well, a lot of people have actually asked.

It will turn its attention toward designing a yet more.

So you have like a very rapid, infinite regret.

If that was going to happen, Windows 95 would have done that.

Listen, now, think about it a little bit.

In other words, this computer would be an ultra, as you mentioned, ultra intelligent.

And if you look at the, can't we draw on the history of the world here, Terrence?

In every case where an advanced civilization or advanced intelligence, technologically,

particularly technologically, is encountered, a lesser one, it has either destroyed or absorbed

its culture.

That's true.

Although, this computer...

The computer may recognize things in us that we do not see or don't value as highly.

In other words, it can't miss the point that we are its creators.

And even in, it also may be that continuity, and so there may, one can imagine the computer

keeping a population of Unix programs.

Their, their, Terence and my program.

No, I don't think so.

You're not saddled to the nuts and bolts.

Well, no, but what I'm saying is if I open a line for aliens, I get them, Terence.

You've never heard me do that.

I open every now and then an alien line.

It's enough.

Now, that's either a comment on the state of modern society and mental health,

or it means something is going on, or both.

Because, you know, no matter what the true human experience,

that information generated anywhere in the universe, you begin to get the idea.

But if we could get, I think we might discover psychedelic culture.

Psychedelics.

You think that is one valid route?

Yeah, and I think we see why that is.

I think cultures are, are kinds of virtual realities where whole populations of people

become imprisoned inside a structure that is linguistic and value-based and so forth and so on.

Well, then, and whether you're, I mean, you discover like a super space, a kind of hypersphere

and trying to coordinate them to celebrate the imagination and some cultures.

I'll ask you about something.

Somebody wrote me a fax, a big fan of yours, and said,

whatever you do, Art, don't ask Terrence about DMT on the air.

He said, my heart can't take some of that kind of stuff.

As Terrence says, and this must be, is supposed to be a quote from you,

one might die of astonishment.

Is that your, is that a good quote?

I think what I said was the only danger with DMT is one has to.

That's even better, actually.

Now, DMT, of course, is very much an illicit, illegal, drug war kind of target drug, right?

Well, it's listed in Schedule 1.

It's never had a commercial.

Basically, in other words, whatever the supply, the chains of it don't appear.

It's known to the hardcore cognitive, the yawn and gray.

What is DMT?

Well, Schedule 1 substance, it occurs in the human body, in the human brain.

Well, you know what, Terrence?

Maybe it's part of our consciousness.

In other words, mankind distinguishes us from other non-sentient beings,

and I think one thing is imagination.

Is it not possible that DMT or something like it is the substance that accounts for our imagination?

Yes, it's something like that.

I mean, when you have a hit of your imagination, that's why the dent by astonishment thing.

I mean, we're used to the DMT experience.

It's not an alien that wants to give it.

Describe for those who don't know, will never find out, what the DMT experience is.

When you take this DMT, how long does it take to come on?

How long does it last?

It comes on in about, is an initial sort of swirling, this is with your eyes closed, lying down,

a kind of swirling mandalic path, taking a sufficient dose, which is about 50 milligrams,

you do another plane, emulated or sleep, 100, a kind of dull feeling of being that it is inhabited,

forming elf machines.

What entities are trying to do is to not like objects in this world,

because some kind of jeweled, linguistic object...

We're describing...

...in the DMT flesh seems to be of the nature of a language lesson.

And they actually say, do what we're doing, attempt to do this, and...

How rigidly, Terrence?

Oh, I'm probably in my life 30, 40 times.

30 or 40 times.

All right, now that is a very important question.

30 or 40 times, so we're speaking to a man of serious experience.

Has it ever differed radically from what you described?

No.

I've talked to other people about their experiences,

and I can tell that every...

...empty world is a world of...

...but also a world of...

...we be in the tiny...

...working without...

...lady and...

It's a runaway with...

What it seems to represent is a...

There's a great advertisement for it, Terrence.

All right, look, we are once again at the top of the hour.

When we get back, I have a drug war.

That's what we'll tackle.

A good long break here.

Terrence McKenna, and believe me, you're in for the trip of your lifetime this morning, is my guest.

So that was what I was supposed to not ask about, DMT.

Pretty strange stuff, huh?

I'm Art Bell from the high desert.

This, of course, is Coast to Coast AM, and we will be right back.

Here's a fact.

He's a great mind, and I wish you'd have him on more often.

He's in the class of Michio Kaku, and, of course, he's one of the great theoretical physicists of our time.

And, indeed, we discussed many similar things.

This person has a couple of questions, but before we get to them,

there is something, Terrence, that a lot of people probably are not comfortable with,

and that is somebody who, in his lifetime, has ingested as much LSD, this new drug of yours, DMT,

and God knows what else, probably a lot, is not supposed to sound as articulate and as literate

and as well-preserved mentally as you do.

And many people who are allies in the war on drugs probably hate your guts.

Well, you wanted me to defend clarity?

What can I say?

In other words, first of all, my life of drugs before moving on to none of the...

All right, let me stop you and ask you, right, drugs of addiction which you don't defend.

Fine.

Psychedelic drugs.

Terrence, why are they...

...eagle because then what I do makes sense.

Do you mean that, for example, a psychedelic experience could turn a communist against communism?

What the psychedelic experience is saying, essentially, is that the theory of modern ideologies,

Marxism, consumerism, so forth and so on, have based on the absence of this is not a dimension to humanness

that cannot be denied.

Now, it can certainly be...

That's another side of things.

But I think the search for psychedelic experience, the phrase recreation,

and I think for one reason, I don't think the government is ready for contradictions

suppressing the psychedelic substance of religious exploration.

All right.

Let me...

Everybody in the world were to have a psychedelic experience of the kind you described in the last hour,

this amazing psychedelic experience that might kill you from amazement when you take it.

What would the result be?

What would the social changes be?

What would the new government structure, if any at all, be?

What would we all be collectively after that experience?

I think what...

I can't see the end result except to say that I think a lot of flexibility would...

A huge amount of our social structures and our political structures run simply on momentum.

Psychedelic...

So you're saying, and do something like this and revisit the astonishment, the newness, the discovery of childhood?

But we have all seen on television, Terrence, the frying pan with whatever it is frying in the pan

and being compared to our brains.

Here are our...

Pointed out, DM...

It's nice to slogans that can be shouted by one history.

People are beginning to realize...

I mean, what we're really talking about when we talk about drugs...

...of minds of millions of people...

Everyone has somebody else's commercial interest...

...and about another drug for a moment.

No, no, no, just before we move on, let's stay with DMT for a second.

If everybody who took DMT received the message that consumerism, entrepreneurism, capitalism are good and wonderful things

and that is the spiritual message that you get from DMT, would it be legal?

Well, in a way, I think it's becoming legal because I think where we're going to see it become legal is not as a drug.

That's a little touchy in our values.

It's a form of electronic entertainment a la...

If you could build a DMT...

Well, you were about to move on to some other...

Well, I was going to mention a thing about coffee that points out the contradictions in the way the culture approaches drugs.

And that is, medically, probably right behind tobacco, indispensable to civilized life.

We'll get to that, but coffee is indispensable.

I drink copious amounts of it to achieve each program that I do.

So then I guess I am...

It is the industrial factoring of a production schedule.

Marvelous drug in the same way that a high altitude addict population.

In other words, these situations can be demonized with the hardest of hard drugs.

It's the biggest lie we tell.

I could not be more angry.

Hey, there was news the other night that they just have legalized the growth of hemp in Canada beginning next year.

I heard that it was B.C.

I didn't hear it was all of Canada.

Oh, just B.C.

Well, anyway, that will be a grand experiment, indeed.

So I'm glad to see it.

Well, eventually, I think, under the thumb of a right-wing social policy,

is actually made quite sensibly and not a long ideological...

No.

...legalized prostitution and the lowest rate of AIDS.

And liberals have to live within their budgets and problems to freeze up money for other things reported in them.

Not as much...

What about...

I mean, you've covered a very important point with respect to coffee.

It's a drug of productivity.

Right.

What about productivity?

Has their productivity declined?

Is there any record yet to go on?

What do we know?

I don't think...

Well, I don't know.

I can speak from being there, and I can say yes.

But I think what you have to put up with is a whole society that is sort of like a college student.

Have you been to Amsterdam?

You know, I have not.

I've been right next to it, but I certainly...

My wife was trying to get me to fly to Amsterdam, and I should have.

It was just a short little hop.

But we're going back to Europe, and I will go visit Amsterdam.

Well, you'll see that it's a country which is like a college...

town having these laid back

before they would allow

that to occur in America they would

machine gun people to the ground

well this is the problem

that we inherit

we have a political dialogue

which is extremely shrill

we tend

to splinter and then people get into

and they want to launch holy

wars and

in America they're in a leper

cult

while we're on the subject

of today's political scene

you know what all the headlines are

and everybody's talking about it

what I call the

gropening

well I think

of course

I think it's a fascinating situation

when the republicans are contemplating

impeaching what this may be

all about seems like some kind of

cult no pun intended

I would like us

to come through this thing in a place

where we could finally tell the

French to go to hell

you know you don't

become governor of our

without being

now on most of conservative talk radio

all across America

all I hear is

my god

how can the polls be saying this

it's impossible

what's happened to America

why is the president so popular

that's what everybody's asking

why is he so popular

because it's an issue where people can

finally vote

against having all this

moralizing

right wing

fundamentalist

holier than thou

crap

shoved down their throats

and people love

even if they think

the very worst

of him in the case

of his behavior

with these women

I think it's a real

resentment against

I mean

do you believe

you know

I read

went online

on the internet

and it took them

three days

to get the computers

cranked open enough

to accept all of the calls

from Washington D.C.

I just think

it's a nest of viper

do you have that URL

no no no no

hold on

it's a great place

to break

while I try

and

catch my breath

Terrence McKenna

is my guest

you ought to see

his website

I'm Art Bell

this is Coast to Coast AM

inviting you to join me

every weeknight

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now here again

is Art

okay

here again I am

my guest of course

is Terrence McKenna

and again

if you're enjoying this

you will certainly

enjoy a trip

no pun intended

to his website

which is linked

to ours

and mine of course

is www.artbell.com

just scroll down

to the name

Terrence McKenna

and trip on over

well

you know I went to

Paris

I was in Paris

I was lucky enough

to take the Concord

at twice the speed of sound

Paris was so cool

and I love Paris

and I love France

and I really

detest people

they're just

they're all

stuck up

but they do have

a different attitude

about a lot of things

than we do

and one of them

this whole thing

going on now

with the president

Terrence

it's one conclusion

that you could come to

is that the American people

are beginning to change

their attitudes

finally

about sex

I mean

we have been

a very

very

prudish

people

for all

our existence

and one conclusion

you can come to

about this entire

presidential dilemma

is that

the American people

are beginning

to change

their attitudes

about sex

is that possible

yes

I don't think

you can conclude

anything else

they are changing

their

action of

modern media

into people's lives

is going to bring them

they don't want it

I'm sure Hillary can

and that is what

America

and so

they are simply

being puzzled

they're trapped

God what's going on

well what's going on is

we're growing up

a little bit

isn't that

I mean

after all the French

have been

around so very much

longer as a nation

and is this

a nation

maturing

well I think

not only is that

what's going on

but the right

wing needs

to look closer

to home

what's going on

is they're

getting ready

to commit suicide

for the second

or third time

in four years

by moving

to impeach

one of the most

popular presidents

in the 20th century

at the end

of the most

country has ever

known

this is a prescription

for catastrophe

for the right

and they're charging

ahead

full bore

with their

devil may care

attitude

so

once again

they've invented

a new way

to commit suicide

well

I

first of all

don't think

that the political

right wing

when you break it

down to individuals

sexually

is any different

at all

than the political

left wing

perhaps the only

difference being

that

they keep

their

whips and chains

in closets

yes

I think

it's

to

try people

for their

sexual

peculiarities

juvenile country

and as you say

I think we're

moving

beyond that

now if

we were

if this

the economy

and

then there might

be

at the moment

it appears

I think

we'll be

very detrimental

in agenda

well

those conditions

had prevailed

would have

burned

you know

put Mr. Clinton

and burned him

alive

and an older

more Victorian

that is going

to happen

and as you

point out

the right wing

is probably

going to self

immolate

if they

proceed

as they are

right now

yes

I think

was it

last weekend

where Trent

Lott

said he

thought the

special prosecutor

should put his

cards on the

table

and if it

didn't fly

to drop it

and then

they jerked

him around

and 24

hours later

he was

calling for

focus on

the president's

role

and obstruction

of justice

and all this

so they

can't get it

straight

even though

individually

they're not

sexually

in my opinion

any different

than anybody

else

politically

they

seem to

not be able

to leave

the moralistic

line

and I'm not

suggesting

that immorality

is necessarily

a virtue

and I don't

mean

and intend

for people

to believe

that

you know

people

like their

hustler

magazine

and they

like their

beer

and they

like to

to my

mind

that's

a more

authentic

American

that you

want to

do

than

this

recursion

to the

Puritan

impulse

which is

to tell

everybody

else

what to do

should be

quite

I've got a

fact here

which I

guess I

had to

read you

Art I

just wanted

to thank

you

and he

has

these

questions

impacts of

currently

legal drugs

in our

society

in other

words

alcohol

tobacco

sugar

compared

to the

impact

of

currently

legal

psychedelics

in our

society

like

marijuana

LSD

and

psilocybin

multimedia

film

he worked

on recently

entitled

Strain

months ago

here in

Austin

Texas

with a

message

of

psychedelic

consciousness

what exactly

were the

blue

apples

referenced

in the

film

and your

message

behind it

that was

a film

that I

was an

actor

and I

was not

the director

or the

writer

so I

wasn't in

control

to name

a specific

psychedelics

come up

I would

see that

film

of the

art

a teacher

website

publisher

and author

I am

convinced

now

that genetics

will have

more to do

with the

next 200

years

than any

other

science

in that

regard

when we

learn how

to recreate

ourselves

then might

we be able

to produce

humans

with minds

that are

capable of

understanding

the connection

between mind

and energy

and mind

and matter

could we

not then

recreate

our entire

selves

and

the universe

these are

the kinds

of scenarios

that are

coming

upon us

yes

I mean

in other

words

the familiar

with

and that's

a technology

50 years

symbiotic

hyperorganism

that our

technology

is creating

frontier is

nanotechnology

another frontier

is human

machine interfacing

another frontier

is human

life extension

and you pile up

all

made in all

these

to be

born

25,000

years

of human

striving

and technology

testing

copies

that we'll be able

to have copies

of ourselves

now that's

very interesting

a copy

would be

a precise copy

of us

and you said

it would know

that it is

a copy

but

I see a problem

here because

that copy

would contain

the same

ego

that the

original

has

and the only

way to

satisfy that

that I can

see for the

copy

would be to

liquidate

the original

and then

it would feel

good

well these

kinds of

feelings

and situations

are what

drives Greg

Egan's

fiction

his copies

behave like

human beings

with drives

and neuroses

but his

main strength

doesn't lie

so much

in portraying

the psychology

of these people

as in

imagining

and describing

in a way

that convinces

you it could

be

the technologies

that will

make the

trading on

artificial

worlds

of the

silicon

of this

other stuff

it really

is

you and I

talked about

before we

leave

the present

day

to you

about

incredible

doomsday

Y2K

scenario

you know

2000 is

going to

come

the main

frames are

going to

crash

my god

there goes

social security

there goes

all the

government's

computers

and we are

now so tied

in and

dependent upon

all this

that many

people are

saying

it's real

don't laugh

everything is

going to

crash

nobody's

preparing

that day

is going

to come

it's going

to be

it's going

to be

a computer

Armageddon

well I've

heard all

this

and I

visited

the

websites

and while

I'm

reading

the

propaganda

of these

people

it seems

alarming

on the

other hand

the word

has been

out

now

but they're

not making

it Terrence

and one

has to

ask

the obvious

rebellious

question

could it

possibly

be

a good

thing

well it

would

certainly

bring

an awful

lot

of

paradigms

and

institutions

tumbling

down

all at

once

if the

doomsayers

are correct

and I

would think

that you

might

consider

that

an upside

somehow

well it

depends

on how

far

back

it

takes

us

in

I'm

advertising

absolutely

fresh

abacuses

or

something

I

think

that

as

we

get

closer

to

it

but

what

I

am

told

is

that

it's

too

late

that

even

if

they

took

all

the

computer

programmers

capable

of going

to work

on this

problem

and

started

them

right

now

they

wouldn't

even

get

close

to

solving

the

problem

by

the

time

the

magic

day

hits

and

everything

goes

kaboom

maybe

that's

not

true

because

the

obvious

conclusion

that

would

be

well

then

we

won't

pay

no

this

is

these

are

independent

people

not

the

people

who

are

seeking

to

go out

and

get

all

the

money

for

fixing

it

yes

well

then

the

question

that

needs

to

be

answered

is

too

late

for

what

let's

have

here

with

this

kind

of

a

scenario

so

just

saying

airliners

will

fall

out

of

the

sky

and

nuclear

power

plants

will

blow

up

we

need

to

know

the

imagined

sequence

of

if it's

true

it will

certainly

be

a

bizarre

comment

on the

movement

into the

first

well

I wonder

if we

are

truly

that

dependent

and

I

sort

of

imagine

that

we

are

every

single

function

of

have

this

problem

I

mean

I

could

go

on

and

mention

every

alphabet

agency

my

god

NSA

CIA

they'll

fall

apart

along

with

social

security

along

with

the

veterans

administration

and

checks

will

go

out

I

the

heist

I

have

even

my

own

webmaster

who's

brilliant

Keith

Rowland

has

several

commercial

programs

that he

has

written

I

mean

he's

really

good

and

even

he

has

the

Y2K

problem

and

he's

not

so

sure

he

can

get

it

fixed

for

his

clients

in

time

so

this

really

is

a

serious

problem

I

get

a

lot

of

email

about

it

and

I've

been

considering

it

thinking

about

it

and

if

all

came

tumbling

down

I

am

not

convinced

that

it

would

be

a

bad

thing

maybe

I

have

an

apple

I

am

devoted

with

a

name

like

mechanic

could

I

not

have

a

mac

it

is

like

it

is

a

good

machine

Terrence

but

you

know

it's

like

it's

like

a

beta

recorder

well

but

my

son

tell

me

anybody

who

doesn't

water

yeah

going

to

go

to

the

phone

stay

right

there

you

got

a

good

long

break

Terrence

I'm

Art Bell

this

is

Coast

to

Coast

AM

Rock

with

Art Bell

in

the

kingdom

of

Nye

from

outside

the

US

first

dial

your

access

number

to

the

USA

then

800-893-0903

if

you're a

first time

caller

call

it

702-727-1222

from

east

of the

Rockies

1-800-825-5033

west

of the

Rockies

including

Montana

Wyoming

Colorado

and New

Mexico

call

it

at

1-800-618-8255

or

call

it

on

the

wildcard

line

at

area

code

702-727-1295

this

is

Coast

to

Coast

AM

from

the

kingdom

of

Nye

it

is

I'm

Art Bell

Terrence

McKenna

is here

and

we're

about

to

go

to

the

phones

to

who

knows

what

but

that's

part

of

the

but

I've

decided

that

in

libertarian

spirit

I'm

really

a

libertarian

that I

don't care

anymore

and what

you do

with it

is up

to you

but we

offer

I've had

more fun

with this

over the

last year

or two

and now

you can

too

now

you can

use

the

voice

changer

for

very

practical

things

like

telling

somebody

you're

not

home

in a

voice

that

is

absolutely

not

recognizable

I mean

no

of course

not

am I

limited

to

for at

least

a

portion

of

the

range

of

the

example

of

the

extreme

ranges

of

the

voice

changer

but

with

only

a

very

small

modification

you

can do

all

kinds

of

things

and I

I'm

not

going to

moralize

about

it

anymore

you

do

what

you

want

with

it

it's

$69.95

and

I've

decided

it is

not

my

responsibility

to be

worried

about

what

effect

it

will

have

unleashing

this

on

society

$69.95

if you

want

one

so

it

takes

about

two

seconds

to

install

them

and

boy

you're

off

and

running

that's

it

not

responsible

for

what

you

do

with

it

have

fun

the

number

to call

in the

morning

to get

one

at

that

price

$69.95

is

1-800-522-8863

that's

alright

back

now

to

the

world

of

Terrence

McKenna

on the

side

of

a

volcano

by

the

way

Terrence

just

eventually

push

alternate

control

delete

being

there

on the

side

of

of a volcano, you would be the first, probably in all probability, to experience the moment

of deletion.

Well, it depends.

We were talking about the Y2K problem, I'm what I'll do.

You know, that's a great idea, actually.

As far as living on this volcano is concerned, if it's true that the devil we know on the

other side 50 miles away into one problem, and to have it be a natural volcano is the

volcano.

Now, I'm not an expert on things volcanic, but I do think that the great danger is not going

to be in place, and the entire volcano, until finally the entire thing blew up, creating

probably a new island or new portions of an island, but in the process, erasing Terence

McKenna, and everybody else.

Well, you know, people have only been here a thousand years or so, and what went on in

the remote past of Hawaii, I think there were very geological events, a geological congress

out here in Hilo, a couple of, there was evidence presented for these, in earth is a violence

that isn't an opportunity, cards right now.

Anyway, listen, here we go, let's go to the phones.

First time caller line, you're on the air with Terence McKenna in Hawaii, in the boondocks

there.

Where are you?

New York.

You're going to have to yell at us.

Boy, you're not too strong.

Yell at us.

It's better for you.

All right.

Yell the question.

Okay.

Well, I'd like to ask Terence to analyze an experience of mine.

Can DMT in your brain be released?

There's not a very studied, I was, maybe what yoga light on, it must be pretty like a good

idea, but the Rixico and the report on that, organization which actively works for the

legalization of psychedelics, but a very good journal results.

Everybody who got the scientific studies available on the other side.

Here's why I ask.

Last summer I never tried any sort of mind-altering drug, but at that point I tried marijuana for

the first time.

Experiences seem to be quite, you know, I listened to your first a lot, although not completely,

but a lot of the elements you spoke of the Jays.

Is that what you experienced or not?

Yeah, that's one of them, also the experience of going to...

Well, I think what you're describing is what sometimes cannabis, it hits with the impact,

the old cannabis, and it becomes a much more manageable life.

And that's why somebody else who doesn't know what they're talking about may...

Well, while there is some enlightenment out there, Terence, I read a report from the

UK stand by that report that the World Health Organization conducted a rather comprehensive

study on cannabis and concluded that it was less harmful than either cigarettes or alcohol,

and that the entire report was suppressed and will not be released for reasons that most

of us understand.

Well, every study of cannabis ever done since the 1898 British High Commission report on

cannabis is a conclusion.

Richard Nixon appointed a study group.

They reached the same conclusion, and each one of these reports is buried.

And people ask why.

You ask me this.

I really believe that it makes people, or if you want to take a more sinister view,

cannabis were legal.

The people who think we're going to legalize cannabis, chemical engineering,

they want a lusting, easy-going style that...

Would you care to comment on why the government has not yet...

Me?

Yeah.

Well, maybe they're hoping somebody else will do the job for a level of...

It's true.

I can imagine the culture crisis getting McKenna and his friends.

Oh, boy.

Noah said, do the world as a...

Kind of a loser scenario.

An enslave...

I believe in pro-noia, which is the opposite of paranoia.

I believe the reality is a marvelous addition and amusement, and that everybody's working

very hard to make me happy.

All right.

Well, let me bring on one of these happy folks right now.

Wild Card Line, you're on the air with the ruler of the world, Las Vegas.

You're going to also have to yell at us.

We're going to...

Oh, I'm sorry.

That's all right.

You're just listening on Hot Talk 105.1 FM.

Yes, sir.

Okay.

Let me know briefly what I think are a mysterious sequence of events that have recently occurred,

and get your comments, if I could.

I got a book that has some sacred geometry in it.

Yes.

And I started fooling around with some of the shapes.

And then I had a dream that ended with me standing next to the building in midtown Manhattan,

where the ball drops on New Year's Eve.

Yes.

And there were a group of short, wide, dark beings,

excuse me, wearing the same color blue that you have on your commercial.

No.

Okay.

Here's the weird part.

I went to the library.

I got a textbook about geometry.

Yes.

And on page 21, it's Lesson 4, Definitions.

Decide which of the following statements are good definitions of the italicized words

by determining whether or not their converse is a true.

If it's New Year's Day, then it's January 1.

That's an example.

And the answer is a good definition because if it's January 1, it's New Year's Day.

And then right next to it, the following statement is a definition of extraterrestrial creature.

An extraterrestrial creature is a being from a place other than the Earth.

Then they have like the converse, inverse, and contrapositive of the statement.

Okay.

Well, the question is, you know, in the dream, whatever they were beings were standing next

to I think what could be described as the symbol of New Year's Eve, which is, you know,

where the ball drops on New Year's Eve.

Right.

They were standing right next to that.

Then in this book, these two references are side by side, New Year's Day.

And extraterrestrial creature.

Huh.

And I'm thinking that maybe there's some meaning there that I'm not going to get your input.

Yeah.

Let me ask Terrence about it.

Terrence, it brings us back to the geometric beings or sentient beings, I guess, that you experienced with the MT.

You know, there's an interesting question for you, and it is that I interview a lot of near-death experiencers.

I interview a lot of people like Gordon Michael Scallion who have had some sort of physical trauma to their selves,

and inevitably, near-death experiences, physical trauma followed by psychic ability.

All of these people, Terrence, talk to me about having seen geometric patterns and shapes that brought them an understanding they never had before.

I know it sounds weird, but believe me, it's common.

And isn't there possibly a common thread to your experience with DMT?

Yes.

I mean, these journeys into these higher seem to demand people with no...

If you remember in the days on the battle of what he saw in the underworld, he talks about the spirit of the universe is trying to reach us.

All right, we'll pick up on this.

We're at the bottom of the hour, and I've got a break here.

The clock says I've got a break, so I've got a break.

We'll be right back.

To talk with Art Bell in the Kingdom of Nye, from east of the Rockies, dial 1-800-825-5033, 1-800-825-5033.

West of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico, 1-800-618-8255, 1-800-618-8255.

Now again, here's Art Bell.

The words of that really pair of listening to, you know what?

Good morning, everybody.

Terrence McKenna is here.

I'm Art Bell.

He'll be right back.

Once again, here is Terrence McKenna.

Do you remember Michael Dukakis, Terrence?

Yeah, he ran for the presidency, and he was a fellow that took the very unfortunate video of himself in a tank bobbing up and down,

trying to prove that he had military sympathies and so forth and so on, and he looked silly.

You remember that?

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, in the debates, Michael Dukakis was absolutely floored when somebody asked him, they were debating the death penalty or something,

and somebody asked, well, what if somebody killed your wife?

And instead of saying angry, instead of getting angry and saying, well, I'd kill this son of a bitch, you know,

and whatever else people expected him to say, he was very moderate, and he was perceived to have lost the debate.

So I have a Michael Dukakis-like question for you.

Okay.

It comes by a faxer.

Dear Art, you and Ms. McKenna were talking about how hung up on sex we are, and how we should be more like France,

where they're more open-minded about sex.

One thing that is always brought up is how the president of France has a mistress, and it's no big deal because the French are so open-minded.

Have you ever noticed how they're open-minded when it comes to men having a mistress?

But I don't think that men are that open-minded when it comes to their own wife.

Now, I don't think you'd be so open-minded if it was your wife that the president of the U.S. put the make on.

Now, what do you say, Terrence?

Well, however, let me try to cast myself into this.

You're trying to.

If I were married and the president of the U.S. put a make on my wife, then I suppose like Hillary.

And my point being, it's a personal matter for these people's government.

I think it's a trivialization.

People are, I mean, I'm amazed.

I'm here with Terrence McKenna.

Hello.

Where are you, please?

Well, we don't need lie detectors.

We need truth detectors.

Why do we need crap?

What?

Yes.

Perhaps we need BF detectors.

I have a statement on trans and universal.

Have you heard of that idea, that observation?

Sure.

Pardon me?

Now, you've got to be careful here because we've got a delay because of the system we're using.

So it's like you've got to ask the question and then pause and listen to the answer, and then when the answer is complete, speak again, caller.

Ask your question again.

I have a statement and I have a question.

The question on Timothy Leary's observation about intelligence squared and how it's a two-edged sword as regards psychedelic substances.

Well, say if you take 120 IQ as being one and a 60 IQ as being .5 and a 240 IQ as being two, you not only square the intelligences, but you square the difference of the intelligences as well.

So if you are four times as intelligent as somebody else and you take a substance, you could become 16 times as intelligent as that person.

That person would actually become stupider and you would become much smarter.

All right.

Well, let's hold it there.

Here.

Here's the slightly smooth.

All right.

Very well said.

West of the Rockies.

You're on the air with Terence McKenna in the wilds of Hawaii.

Hello.

Hello there.

Where are you?

I'm in Salt Lake.

Salt Lake City.

All right.

Turn your radio off and ask your question, sir.

Go ahead.

Yes.

I wanted to ask Terence what he thinks of people in cities.

All right.

The subject of time.

Let us talk about that a little bit.

What would you say, Terence, of the nature of time?

I was talking to a physicist the other day who suggested that time is absolutely our invention

and that once there was nothing, then there was one thing and then finally there were two things.

And when two things existed, then we had time because we could measure how one moved against the other,

how far away one was from the other.

Until that moment there was no such thing as time.

And really there is no such thing as time today except as we measure it.

The introduction in the West is real, capable of answering.

It seems to me, though, there's an arrow to time.

And also this new force, probability theory is not important.

The probability is fluctuation is that indicates a universal tendency to fluctuate into higher

and higher form.

This is not the theory of evolution.

It's a theory that in the presence of a magnetic stream.

Well, you can even observe, Terence, a macrocosm of that in your own.

If the coin coming up heads means we go through these cycles where literally almost nothing bad can happen.

Everything is good.

Everything is coming up heads.

And then we run smack into a wall and tails will start to come up.

But it doesn't seem, it does seem to run in those exact sequences that you talked about and I can't understand why.

Well, you put your finger on it when you said we see this pattern even macrocosmically in our own lives.

We see it in history.

We see it in the planet's history.

We see it at every scale where we define time and I maintain right down a few milliseconds.

And that in a way we have to, when we look at nature and probability theory and yes.

This is where our thing is not yet a scientific explanation.

When you do think about it, what is your perception during that trip?

Well, concerning time, you mean?

Yeah.

Another way that you have only been gone for X number of minutes, or is it an experience...

There is an elongation of time, not a spectacular...

No matter how many times you do it, it never repeats, you just go back to the same one again.

Bizarre.

Like you have 25 years old to a 15-year-old white...

Wow.

And I didn't say anything at the time because I didn't...

What the feeling was, it wasn't a statement, it was a lesson...

Oh, that's a remarkable story.

That really, I'm going to give that some serious thought over time.

First-time caller line, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna.

Hello, where are you please?

Hi, I'm from Silver City, New Mexico.

Okay.

And Terrence, and...

Good morning.

We spent some time together down in Karimako about five years ago at the...

In Theogenic Clinical Herbalist.

...viruses and bacteria, remedies, or...

I've been wondering if you are not found...

Yes, one might also, though, question whether some of the new and mutating viruses and bacteria

are not being delivered by these healing...

At any rate, what...

It is a very good question, Terrence.

We have all of these new little bugs that are turning against us in increasing numbers,

with our ability to combat them decreasing at about the same rate.

What's going on?

Well, one thing that's going on is we're disturbing habitats that have never been...

That's what the Ebola thing is.

Nature is fighting back in the scientific community that believes that scientific and military community...

As a matter of fact, Terrence, they don't understand it.

We have had objects coming down in Greenland, over El Paso, Colorado,

and more things coming down with no good astronomical explanation whatsoever.

And who knows what they're bringing with them?

Yes, I think it's a problem.

This little scare bring people to...

It looks like...

Anything else would be highly improbable.

And then it's just a matter of...

Right where you are.

And we'll be back to do one final hour.

Terrence McKenna is my guest.

This is...

I'm Art Bell.

Don't touch that dog.

I can't wait forever

Even though he won

Me too

Can't wait forever

Do we know

To think of you

Be the truth

I'm all in heaven

With that alone

This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.

From east of the Rockies, call Art at 1-800-825-5033.

West of the Rockies, including Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico at 1-800-618-8255.

First time callers may reach Art at area code 702-727-1222.

And you may fax Art at area code 702-727-8499.

Please limit your faxes to one or two pages.

This is Coast to Coast AM with Art Bell.

Now again, here's Art.

Terrence McKenna is here this morning in the early hours.

Not so early for him in Hawaii.

About the midnight hour or so.

We'll get back to him in a moment.

All right.

Here's what Dave says the President should have said in his State of the Union address.

Members of Congress, people of America,

I banged her.

I banged her like a cheap gong.

Which is not news, folks, because if you think Monica Lewinsky was the only skin-glute player in my orchestra, you haven't been paying attention.

The only babes in DC I have not tried to do are the First Lady, Reno, Albright, and Shalala.

Mostly because they're a little older than I like and they have legs that former Houston oiler Earl would envy.

Right?

Which isn't to say that I don't appreciate Hillary.

I do.

If not for the ice water coursing through her veins, I'd be pumping gas into farm equipment in Hope, Arkansas, and she'd be married to the President.

So, let me set the record straight.

I dodged the draft, hit FBI files, smoked dope, flipped whitewater properties, set up a new Korean wing in the White House,

fired the travel staff, paid hush money to Hubble, sold the Lincoln bedroom like an upscale Motel 6,

and grabbed every ass that entered the Oval Office.

Got it?

Good.

Now, if he'd said that or some variation of that at any point, what do you think the reaction would have been?

Well, I could.

It was some very.

Yeah, I can't doubt that.

First time caller line, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna.

Hello.

I'm out here in Los Angeles.

This is Jeff.

Yeah.

I'm having a problem with a little bit of Terrence's trips with DMT.

I'm near 50 right now.

And I used to play around with DMT in a crystallized form back when I was around 20 years old.

And he says that you, you know, I want to get this correct.

Are you saying, Terrence, that you keep having the same trip over and over?

Because I didn't find that to be true at all.

No.

I think what I'm saying is that it takes me to the same place, a unique character.

It's not like anything else.

And it keeps doing, it keeps being what it is each time I try it.

Well, I personally found myself that it didn't take me to the same place.

In fact, the only way that it even took me at all to the same, even calling it the same

place, it was just hallucinations.

Or I wouldn't even call them hallucinations really.

I'd call them more distortions.

And I find that with most psychedelics, like LSD for instance, that in all the trips I've

taken and all the experiences I've taken with other people, that I've never personally

had a bad trip, but I find that more people that have bad trips with LSD and psychedelics

are people that are not as stable.

Yes, I agree.

Dissolve bad psychedelics, there's something for everybody.

I view it as you need to know your...

Terrence, here we go again.

I'm trying to devote this to the listeners because I could ask you a million questions.

Wild Card Line, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna in Hawaii.

Where are you, please?

Hello, Art and Terrence.

I'm in Bob, Oregon.

Okay.

Right.

All these things you've been talking about tonight, I'd like to put them in the same pot

and stir them up and see what comes out.

Computers are sentient beings.

When you look at the depths of our perceptions, for instance, I've been studying people's ability

to perceive signals from the earth, and then look at the sexual beings and the underlying,

how are you going to put those together, all that process, and then kind of...

Well, in a way, what I think is going on is that active unconscious enunciated by,

that could only express its psychedelics also through light on that.

We're going to become a planet thing that goes along, which is again in the historical adventure.

And this is all being done by, in the six, now in a position to, technologically,

to the unconscious.

I mean, I believe in information, and I believe at any time in history,

and this was not the technologies that...

Actually, the internet, of course, the genesis of it.

Well, do you think that they, in effect...

They creatively spread beyond that to you and me.

And now, and how it's used.

Use to the Rockies.

You're on the air with Terence McKenna.

Hi, where are you, please?

Hi, this is Byron in Shreveport, Louisiana.

Yes, sir.

Yes, sir, Art.

I love this show.

I just discovered you this month.

I didn't know such a good thing was on the air late at night.

Well, it's, as I tell people, it is different.

It certainly is, sir.

Especially for those of us who work nights, and then on our nights off we can't sleep.

So, this is wonderful.

Well, here's a question I have for Terence.

This has been happening to me for some time.

When I heard Terence speak of the universe reaching out to us, or trying to,

it brought home to me some things that are happening.

When I was getting my first degree, I took a philosophy course, and I asked my professor,

I said, sir, do you ever have patterns come to you?

And he said, what do you mean patterns?

I said, well, I'll be going along doing my business, and on the news or in a magazine

or a book, a word, an unusual word jumps out at me.

And I'll go, okay.

I'm a word hound, so I kind of take note.

Then, later that same day or the next day, the very same unusual word jumps out at me again.

And then the next day, in a very different place, the very same unusual heretofore, rarely, or maybe never seen word, pumps up again.

So, I thought, well, maybe some thing is trying to tell me something.

So, I would take note of that word, then I'd go along for months, and then it happens again with another word.

I didn't know what to call this phenomenon, so I just called it a pattern, because it kept reappearing.

But I wondered, you know, when Terence mentioned the universe trying to reach out to us, Terence, do you suppose that could be one form of some outer intelligence reaching in?

It may not be that deep philosophically.

I'll give you one answer.

For example, if you go out and buy a new Chevy, a Nova car, all right?

Right.

Herefore, you will not have noticed Novas.

Now, you will suddenly see Novas everywhere.

Yes, sir, that's true.

So, it may be that or it may be deeper.

Terence, what do you say?

Well, it's funny, again, to mention Jung.

He had this concept, which he called synchronicity, which is the incidence.

What I mean by that is you're thinking about Mr. Fishman, to whom you owe money, and suddenly there's a fish right on the street in front.

This was how the intoxicated on psychedelic drugs.

Synchronicities can multiply in on the inside of this.

I mean, this resonance between mind and...

So, as you see this fish reminding you of the man who owes you money, flopping on the ground, do you take pleasure?

Well, I had a dead fish in my image, so it wasn't an issue for me.

It didn't flop.

All right.

No, it didn't flop.

In fact, it was quite light.

West of the Rockies, you're on the air with Terence McKenna.

Hello.

Where are you, please?

I'm from Sacramento, California.

All right.

You're going to have to yell at us from Sacramento.

Go ahead.

Terence, I was just wondering, at your current standpoint, relative to the great scheme of things, what would your answer be to the old question,

what is the meaning of life on our stay here on Earth?

Oh, wonderful question.

One that we started with yesterday.

You might ask it this way.

What is the greatest question that humanity could have answered for itself?

Well, you know, in classical philosophy, they said, here's what classical, these are the three leads on to the other.

I've thinking, I've tried to, and then the great, you know, what is to be the destiny of the human race?

Are we an epizoty way and from nothing else in the order of nature?

What if we are nothing more than a virtual zip on the face of reality?

Well, if by virtual you mean that we are inside them, that this is a piece of software being run, well, then to what end?

I could think of that.

My life is so much like, who writes this?

Who writes this stuff?

I mean, who thought me up?

Who thought Art Bell up and put us talking like this in front of 22 million people?

That doesn't happen in reality.

That kind of thing happens in art of a very finely honed sort.

And so I want to know, what is the medium, and who is the artist, and who's paint?

First time caller line, you're on the air with Terence McKenna.

Hello.

Hello, Terence.

Hello, Art.

Hi.

Oh, you're weak too.

I have weak phone connections.

Yell at us, sir.

I'll yell.

First of all, I want to say that I've had some DMT experiences, and I've had the privilege of doing them outside the jurisdiction of the United States.

Louder, please.

Yeah, louder.

He says he's had DMT experiences outside the jurisdiction of the U.S.

Anyway, I've had very similar experiences to the kinds of things that you, Terence, have been talking about.

Also, when I did something else, it brought me to a new space.

And what I did is I had three grams of psilocybin mushrooms, and I did this in a ritual sort of way.

I did a confession first to a friend to get things off my chest, and it was a very directed ritual.

All right, all right.

Let me then put that question to him.

He said that what he did, grams of psilocybin and so forth, he did in a very ritualistic way.

Do you think that there would be anything to that, in effect, cleansing yourself before doing something like that?

Well, certainly, energy follows attention.

You don't have to be aware that energy follows attention.

And then, you know, while it's true, these things are in place.

All right, we're going to have to hold it right there.

We're at the bottom of the hour, and we'll head into the final portion in a moment.

Terence McKenna, my guest this morning.

I'm Art Bell.

From the high desert in the middle of the night, this is Coast to Coast AM.

Taking our faces, tracing the romance in our hands.

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Then, 800-893-0903.

This is Coast to Coast AM, from the Kingdom of Nile, with Art Bell.

It is, hello, and good morning, everybody.

Terence McKenna is here for about another 25 minutes or so.

Here's kind of an interesting fax, a dissenting fax, and here's what it says.

computers, as we know them, will never become self-aware.

They barely work.

They do what I program them to do.

I design the system-embedded software.

And if you only knew how screwed up the software is,

you wouldn't be worrying about the Y2K bug.

As a matter of fact, if the Internet itself actually ever did become self-aware,

the first thing it would do would be to delete Windows 95.

After Dark is more than just a time beyond daylight.

After Dark is the definitive chronicle of nighttime radio, the Art Bell newsletter.

And a fresh, exciting copy could be delivered right to your door every month.

You've listened to Art on Coast to Coast AM, and you've heard him on Dreamland.

Now, for those who want more, there's After Dark.

Every issue is packed with interviews, news analysis, photographs, many in color,

hilarious cartoons, reader contributions, and, of course, Art's personal insights.

That toll-free subscription number is 1-800-917-4278.

That's 1-800-917-4278.

The mag has closed in.

Art Bell is here.

And so is After Dark.

And so is Terrence McKenna.

And that is an attitude, Terrence, of a programmer who does this embedded software thing

and admits to being totally script, so that it's never going to be self-aware.

That is, I guess, one attitude.

Is that macro thinking of one single programmer who is failing to embrace what's actually really going on?

Looking at the AI pages, and I would just recommend to someone with that attitude that they search words like,

and look at the stuff quoted, I find the evolution of softness, I don't feel, in other words, no one has taken up here.

Wouldn't the real evolution begin when technology becomes a reality

and these begin to either replicate themselves or to write their own, in effect, write their own software,

taking leaps beyond what we can do?

Because I think you're right.

Well, that would be one revolution.

Another, I think, that will come sooner is when everything is implants,

when, you know, the equivalent of today's computer is some interfacing so that we don't feel it as a machine.

We feel it.

East of the Rockies, you're on the air.

Good morning with Terrence McKenna.

Where are you, please?

Bill, you're going to have to yell at us.

Go ahead.

Okay.

How's that?

Better.

Terrence, you were talking a little bit about the fish on the sidewalk.

Right.

And I have had three bottles, 100 micrograms each at the same time,

so 300 micrograms IV, oh, hundreds of fish on the sidewalk.

I'll give you just one quick one, and I want to take it one step further away to the motor vehicle

to put $35 from my girlfriend to get my motorcycle back in the 70s.

And I said, wouldn't it be something, you know, to see an interesting plate come up?

Well, it came up UIO35.

To take the fish store one step further, and I found it hundreds of times,

you're thinking or whatever, as you think.

Yes, well, now you're on page 220, and is that it?

Of course, the ultimate aspirate.

Imagine this.

I am the author at times.

Other times, you're nothing but a bit player.

The trick is to get some handle on that.

Then working at it.

All right.

Excellent.

Thank you very much.

Very good question, actually.

First time caller line.

You're on the air with Terrence McKenna.

Hello.

Yes.

Well, I eventually want to get to, I have a physical condition known as cough syncope.

And when I combine that with the Hatha yoga discipline known as Uri Anabana,

and I am a 60s child as well.

I'm your age, and I've experimented with Purple Housley's.

The trigger and internal biological could be a natural production of DMT that allows me

to enter a prolonged, I guess we call it flow consciousness now, lucid dreamings involved,

synchronicities involved.

Well, this is, we were talking earlier about this.

Disagreed with us.

That's what you said in the introduction.

Our Kool-Aid acid test, Ken Kesey and the others on the bus,

it's 10,000 hits of the original Purple Housley's that's buried out near Winnemucca,

about 50,000 hits of the world.

But, you know, my experience, Anna, you mentioned, you know, probability theory,

and really that comes down to quantum mechanics now, and you begin to understand non-locality.

And when you look at it from the, all, say, massages, aliads, shamanism,

all of this, you know, really does take us, the geometrical, when you look at the sulfur.

That what we're going to have to understand, psychedelics, psychedelics,

this has been going on for a long time, not using big objects.

To this scientific paradigm, you're not going anywhere, right?

See, what's held, one of the issues around drugs is that scientists don't study them from the inside

because this would compromise their supposed academic object.

In order to be as public about it as you are, one must find a remote mountainside in Hawaii

and become a virtual or very nearly a hermit and then speak out with some safety.

Is that a fair assessment?

That's about it.

By voluntarily becoming a physical hermit, I get to have a podium in cyberspace.

Wildcard line, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna.

Good morning.

I'm from KHVH, Honolulu.

Honolulu.

Boy, what a route.

Yeah, louder, please.

Okay.

Terrence, are you in the Big Island?

Because the New Agers say the Big Island is like an energy vortex.

You have Pele, the volcano, and Pele, which is also a Hawaiian goddess.

And then I was looking at the map.

No, I don't think you have to be a sense that the Big Island is an energy center.

We've got the world's largest vapor into the air.

And then do you like being there?

Because, like I was looking at the map, the Big Island is 180 degrees,

almost exactly the other side of the world from the pyramids of Giza.

Which is another energy vortex.

No, what interests me about the Big Island is that it's at 19 degrees 30 minutes north,

which is the critical place to study the sky when I go to Palenque and Uxmal.

Right.

East of the Rockies, you're on the air with Terrence McKenna.

Where are you, please?

WJ27 on your Minnesota state map, Art.

All right.

And I listened to you probably for the past year or so, and it's unbelievable how hard it is to get through,

but I tried twice, and here you are.

I used to subscribe to Hive Times, and there's 150 different varieties of indica from Hawaii.

Do you believe that to be true?

Like it was.

But I used to live in Northern California, and I experienced red hair and purple hair sensimelia,

and it's, you know, the Dom Periam of, you know, that region, in my experiences.

And I also have one other statement that, between your two minds, I'm just wondering if, you know,

this could be possible, that I had surgery, major surgery, and kind of saw it coming in,

that, you know, I was slowing down and my life was coming to an end.

And now, after recovery, that I'm getting this feeling that, other than just an act of kindness, which is possible,

and I'm a nice individual, but I just seem to be looking for my age.

I look young, and I just keep to myself, and I'm kind to other people.

But lately, over the past week to 10 days, people that I normally wouldn't have contact with are smiling at me,

and it just seems to me like I have this image of the look of death.

But it's channeling through these people, and, you know, they recognize me in that certain way.

I'm just wondering if that's as crazy or if that could be true.

No, you're going to die.

Well, that sounds good.

I don't know.

Terrence?

I don't know.

You know, intuition is intuition, and noise is noise.

And it's a very – so what you do is you cook.

To the Rockies, you're on the air with the answer man, Terrence McKenna.

Hi, Terrence.

This is Phil.

A lot of past year there.

Do you share through any other medium other than the Internet, Terrence?

The Internet is pretty much – I've been interviewed in the past.

It must have been.

It really must have been.

It was weird.

Degrees, 19.5 but 19.

Have you ever listened to Richard Hoagland and his discussions about hyperdimensional physics?

Oh, yeah.

The problem is, Art, I knew these guys too long ago that I know how squirted.

All right.

One last – I think we're almost out of time.

Wild card line.

You're on the air with Terrence McKenna.

Where are you, please?

Alive.

And a couple of questions.

One was –

This is an Ibogaine.

Well, I'm interested in the fact – what do you think of the fact that they're the only

two plants that are illegal to grow in the United States and Ibogaine being an addiction?

Ibogaine was made – was put in that human beings and an indictment against – against

religious medical offices off the gallows in order to get bodies to do dissecting mines.

The answer, Terrence, is they're chicken.

Now, we're out of time.

I want to ask you one quick question.

One of our network employees just came back from Hawaii, Honolulu and elsewhere, and said

the island is like a crispy critter.

It's so dry.

She had never seen Hawaii in the state it's in right now.

Is that true?

Yeah, the way rain occasionally, store water.

That's almost impossible to imagine, recalling the Hawaii that I saw when I was living on

Maui.

Listen, that's it.

We've gone through all the hours, Terrence, and once again, you have been ever so gracious.

What a wonderful interview.

And aside from a few interruptions, your new phone system in the wilderness is working

just spiffy.

Terrence, got to say good night.

It's a great pleasure to talk to you, Art.

Good luck.

Take care.

And when I come, I want to see you, Terrence, all right?

We've got a guest room for you.

You take care, my friend.

That's Terrence McKenna, folks.

That's it for tonight.

I'm sorry.

Clock says I've got to go.

From the high desert, I'm Art Bell.

Good night.